How could I how could I not

[2sunny]

We recognize that the demands we make for ourselves are unfair to the other person. I demand what anyone wants--a loving, monogamous, commited relationship, and he demands patience. He did recognize the farce of promising forever this early on, and knows its an unfair expectation and question at this point.

 

Your demands are for decency.

 

His demands - patience? What he is proposing isn't right... Patience to watch him further hurt TWO women because he won't simply get honest? NO WAY would I agree to ANY of that!

 

He is being selfish and self centered to even ask you that!

 

Did you ask him if he had sex with her this past weekend?

 

IF he's not got the courage to get honest now - why would he think you should believe he would get honest in the future?

 

The guy is a douche - he's not trustworthy! He doesn't keep his word and he's a coward any way you look at it.

 

He's not the man you thought he COULD be.

 

I'd tell him NO MORE - not even in the future - I deserve a real man with courage, strength and honor!

[wrinkledforhead]

So does this mean that he's going back to her?

He was going to leave her to be with you, and now you two are over so he can stay with her to save her further pain?

All the angsting he did about hurting her and blah blah and talking with his therapist to get advice about how to end it, and it comes to this. It's a pity he didn't talk with the therapist about what to do if he turned out to be a pitiful coward who is prepared to hurt both women.

 

This is all very odd.

 

I really do feel for you and wish you all the best in healing from this.

 

I think... I think from reading his words (he wrote me a very long letter) and in having the discussion we just had, I think he still intends on leaving her. I think he is also face to face with his own loss, and her pain, and its overwhelming. I think he needs to work through his sh**. I want his happiness and as easy as it is to mock the modicum of a relationship that they have (and especially at this point, this deep into the A), that if that makes him happy then it does. She's not a bad person. They have a broken R. He loves her. That's his friend of 15 years, who he's shared a history with.

 

Frankly, I'd have a hard time holding his head while he cries over another woman. As much as I understand what they shared and what he's losing, I have a hard time putting myself in that frame of mind.

 

He has to grieve. We both have to heal.

 

He knows that I may have to completely disconnect all hope for a future R with us to leave him. I know break ups. Some part of me will cling for some time to hope, and eventually I'll have to reconcile with myself to create understanding of it all for myself.

 

I've always known I was loved during this. I know it. He shows me and tells me. He offers his love freely to me. Right now we aren't being good for each other and there is a giant freaking elephant in the room that we need to get out of the house.

 

He may come to me untethered some day. I hope, right now, that he will. This is the person I love. I don't want to damn him.

[wrinkledforhead]

Your demands are for decency.

 

His demands - patience? What he is proposing isn't right... Patience to watch him further hurt TWO women because he won't simply get honest? NO WAY would I agree to ANY of that!

 

He is being selfish and self centered to even ask you that!

 

Did you ask him if he had sex with her this past weekend?

 

IF he's not got the courage to get honest now - why would he think you should believe he would get honest in the future?

 

The guy is a douche - he's not trustworthy! He doesn't keep his word and he's a coward any way you look at it.

 

He's not the man you thought he COULD be.

 

I'd tell him NO MORE - not even in the future - I deserve a real man with courage, strength and honor!

 

Mmmm not an outright demand. It's rather an unspoken request of any mistress, no?

 

They don't have sex. Without going into details, I am very sure of this. There is no doubt in my mind that he has been physically monogamous with me this entire time.

[Speakingofwhich]

Which is why we just sat down and had a discussion and decided together that we are hurting each other and ourselves too much to continue in this, in this way. We care too much for each other as people to let this part of the pain continue. I deserve more. He deserves more. We deserve more of each other than what we currently give each other.

 

And having said all that, part of me feels very empty at the thought of not being with someone I cherish, one of the most amazing people I've ever met. While I'm calm and level headed, right now, I'm mentally looking over the stages of grief and noting the stages I will go through, how I will feel in those moments, and how to ultimately save myself. I have to keep my sanity. I mustn't let this make me bitter, carve scars, exacerbate insecurity.

 

Keeping you in thoughts and prayers, Wrinkled! I checked in right after my devotions this morning to find that you made it through the night OK.

 

I'm glad you have been able to talk things out with him and verbalize to each other that you don't want to continue this way.

 

[imfine]

OP, you seem intelligent. However, I'm very worried because you also seem to refuse to even consider he may being lying to you about anything and/or everything. Please be sure to keep yourself grounded in reality. Most betrayed partners and affair partners will tell you the lies hurt the most.

[Calcmag]

I keep finding my thoughts coming back to this thread.

 

Something just isn't sitting right here with me. I can't put my finger on it.

To me, this guy is coming over as deeply unpleasant and manipulative. He's turning a fairly common 21st century situation into some sort of historical romance novel melodrama.

 

OP, I know you don't want to hear this, but I would be very very wary indeed of this guy and whatever he tells you. Something just is off here.

[Calcmag]

 

Mmmm not an outright demand. It's rather an unspoken request of any mistress, no?

 

 

But OP you explained earlier that you'd walked away from this R not too long ago, and returned making it clear you wanted to be the only one. And this resolution on his part, to end it with his original partner came from that. He has let you down very badly and you're only 5 months in with him.

[2sunny]

What he is doing isn't right - but that doesn't mean you need to allow it.

[georgia girl]

And he held my face last night as I crumpled and said, "oh, my sweetheart." It's written all over my face, too.

 

 

This broke my heart. When you crumple and the person who said they would be there for you and he can't make promises he can keep... ugh. That is so unbelievably sad.

 

Wrinkled Forehead, I agree with the posters here that this is spiraling way out of control. You need to step away from the emotion. It's like a drug and not good for you. Focus on school for a little while and let things with him settle. Maybe he will figure his way out to you. But, I think now that you have crossed this threshold where he was supposed to end the relationship and couldn't, you need a break from him. Carrying on will get you more of the same. How many crumpled moments can you take? Especially before you start hating him for letting you down?

 

Take a break and let him find his course. In the meantime, find your own. Fill your life with friends, family, school and work, if you are working during school. Let this dog lie for a bit.

 

Hugs. I am so heartbroken for you.

[wrinkledforhead]

This broke my heart. When you crumple and the person who said they would be there for you and he can't make promises he can keep... ugh. That is so unbelievably sad.

 

Wrinkled Forehead, I agree with the posters here that this is spiraling way out of control. You need to step away from the emotion. It's like a drug and not good for you. Focus on school for a little while and let things with him settle. Maybe he will figure his way out to you. But, I think now that you have crossed this threshold where he was supposed to end the relationship and couldn't, you need a break from him. Carrying on will get you more of the same. How many crumpled moments can you take? Especially before you start hating him for letting you down?

 

Take a break and let him find his course. In the meantime, find your own. Fill your life with friends, family, school and work, if you are working during school. Let this dog lie for a bit.

 

Hugs. I am so heartbroken for you.

 

 

Yes. I know. And thank you for your understanding. I was still productive at school today, and the homestead is good. We agreed to LC for right now, NC if necessary.

 

We are like a drug to each other. We produce many positive hormones and rushes. It needs a break. It's turned more unhealthy than not.

[Mount]

What the #$% is that, that is so abnormal, too much drama and insanity, which is so obvious.

 

Apparently, there has no solution for that, either continuing the insanity or move on (to normal life).

[truthbetold]

Wrinkled,

 

It sounds like you are in a bargaining phase. All of the pain of last night is diminished because you're in LC with him. Regardless of if there is or isn't drama the one thing he screams is toxicity.

 

You mention that he had a brief fling while with her and that she left her marriage for him. You also mentioned that he wanted out 10 years ago about when faced with her pain stayed!! Seriously why?? They have a major dysfunctional dance going on, but it's going to take a lot more than a new woman to fix his toxicity. It seems you just nonchalantly mention those traits of his like it's circumstantial but it's not it's HIM. Fifteen years of him resenting someone but staying anyway is beyond....well words.

 

Even if he got his crap together, he shows nothing that he has what it takes to be in a healthy relationship. His coping mechanism is to cheat, that's not normal or circumstantial that's his choice. Your life would be a nightmare with him. It saddens me to see some posters defend him and say he's confused?! What, for FIFTEEN years? Life is way too short to risk happiness with a cheater.

 

It saddens me to see you say you know he loves you. Wrinkled "that" is not what love looks like. To caress you and say some flowery words but still HURT you? That's not love. It makes me sad to read time and time here on what women think is love and if and when you find true love you will know.

 

Yes, I'm a big advocate of people either finding happiness with themselves (which you have to do first anyway) then finding true love but not settling for anything less.

 

I thought when I was with my exhusband it was love. It wasn't it was a passion filled dysfunction that I can see clearly now. When he was an azz to my son (visitation etc...) and my son would blame himself for the treatment I would tell him NO love doesn't look like that. That may be his "best" way of love but it doesn't make it right or true.

 

My son now knows the difference and is in a very loving relationship of his own. I went on to re marry and truly do understand what love should look like, which what I stand for here.

 

Just because I'm not on any side of the OW/BW fence, I care about people. I know what dysfunctional love (which isn't really love) looks like vs the real thing.

 

Another poster Red Wolverine mentioned that you can't build happiness on someone's pain and I believe that to be very true. You seem to be a kind hearted person, so it would stand to reason you were having a crisis of conscience over her pain. Toxicity begets toxicity and happiness begets happiness. I wish you peace.

[2sunny]

I suggest NC now. He's staying with her - and can only cause you more heartache by seeing or communicating with him further.

 

Besides - if you see him - the sex will happen - and there's no way to feel good about that - being his second choice.

 

Best, since he's not leaving - to cut it off now.

 

You deserve better than being second.

[wrinkledforhead]

Wrinkled,

 

It sounds like you are in a bargaining phase. All of the pain of last night is diminished because you're in LC with him. Regardless of if there is or isn't drama the one thing he screams is toxicity.

 

You mention that he had a brief fling while with her and that she left her marriage for him. You also mentioned that he wanted out 10 years ago about when faced with her pain stayed!! Seriously why?? They have a major dysfunctional dance going on, but it's going to take a lot more than a new woman to fix his toxicity. It seems you just nonchalantly mention those traits of his like it's circumstantial but it's not it's HIM. Fifteen years of him resenting someone but staying anyway is beyond....well words.

 

Even if he got his crap together, he shows nothing that he has what it takes to be in a healthy relationship. His coping mechanism is to cheat, that's not normal or circumstantial that's his choice. Your life would be a nightmare with him. It saddens me to see some posters defend him and say he's confused?! What, for FIFTEEN years? Life is way too short to risk happiness with a cheater.

 

It saddens me to see you say you know he loves you. Wrinkled "that" is not what love looks like. To caress you and say some flowery words but still HURT you? That's not love. It makes me sad to read time and time here on what women think is love and if and when you find true love you will know.

 

Yes, I'm a big advocate of people either finding happiness with themselves (which you have to do first anyway) then finding true love but not settling for anything less.

 

I thought when I was with my exhusband it was love. It wasn't it was a passion filled dysfunction that I can see clearly now. When he was an azz to my son (visitation etc...) and my son would blame himself for the treatment I would tell him NO love doesn't look like that. That may be his "best" way of love but it doesn't make it right or true.

 

My son now knows the difference and is in a very loving relationship of his own. I went on to re marry and truly do understand what love should look like, which what I stand for here.

 

Just because I'm not on any side of the OW/BW fence, I care about people. I know what dysfunctional love (which isn't really love) looks like vs the real thing.

 

Another poster Red Wolverine mentioned that you can't build happiness on someone's pain and I believe that to be very true. You seem to be a kind hearted person, so it would stand to reason you were having a crisis of conscience over her pain. Toxicity begets toxicity and happiness begets happiness. I wish you peace.

 

While you did have some insight, and a beautifully written post, and some points do apply, I wanted to clear some things up.

 

His A with her was 3 years. His fling was because she wouldn't have sex with him. She's the kind of woman who'd be perfectly content having sex once a month. At that point in their R, it had been several months. It does not justify or excuse his cheating. He hasn't resented her the entire time, but there are things he's never forgiven her for. I did point out to him yesterday how messed up that was, and he listened closely. I do believe he'll take a close look at it, because that is the kind of person he is.

 

I feel the desire to defend him a bit, because this is the man I want to be with. The love comes in the form of taking care of me when I'm sick, listening to my hopes fears and dreams, caring what's happening in my day to day, holding me and simply listening when I've expressed hurts and cried (about things unrelated to this R, things happening in my personal life). It comes in the form of so much laughter, shared inside jokes, hours of conversations talking about anything and everything and nothing. It comes in the form of bringing my kids home gifts from business trips (they do not have an extremely close bond with him but they know he's my closest friend). Love comes in the form of guidance in my professional and academic life when I've asked for it. It comes in the form of packing me a surprise lunch for school, making me many meals, small thoughtful gifts. Listening and remembering everything I say. Writing me love letters when I ask for them (quite a few have commented on my use of language & even the title of the post. We're both romantics and poets).

 

There is love. This is a relationship built on deceit, dishonesty, and yes, lies. There are also traits like compassion, caring, concern, generosity. I absolutely believe that he has been honest with me at all points and when I've questioned him about certain things (mainly his sex life with her), I do believe what he says to me. I recognize that many will cry hypocrisy (he's proven himself to be a liar and a cheat already, how could I believe him) but he has kept his word to me, and always followed up where he said he would. His actions match his words. He maintains that he is still breaking up with her, and the LC/our split is for all the reasons I mentioned. He does love that other person as I said before, and I am understanding that he must work through his own pain and loss relating to that, on his own. We cannot continue to be so entertained right now. I need to maintain my focus on my life.

 

I suppose this is defending me, too. I'm not an emotional masochist addicted to the pain of this. There are reasons I still have hope, and there are reasons I love him, and I will know for many many reasons that this man does in fact love me.

 

So, there's that. This is someone who shares the same outlooks as me, has many of the same dreams, someone who understands me and someone whom with I am free to be entirely me. I don't hide things from him, we work through any issues we've had with open communication and honesty, and without the A, we have the makings to have a future positive R.

[xxoo]

As a partnered person myself, I feel it is incredibly selfish to do those things for a single person, and allow the single person to attach themselves to you, knowing that you are not available. It feels good (for the giver and receiver), but it is ultimately not loving. Love is telling that person you care about that they deserve a full relationship with a wonderful single man, even if you want them for yourself.

[wrinkledforhead]

As a partnered person myself, I feel it is incredibly selfish to do those things for a single person, and allow the single person to attach themselves to you, knowing that you are not available. It feels good (for the giver and receiver), but it is ultimately not loving. Love is telling that person you care about that they deserve a full relationship with a wonderful single man, even if you want them for yourself.

 

You are very, very right. He and I both know that I deserve someone who can give me their whole heart and that person is not him right now.

[Calcmag]

 

I feel the desire to defend him a bit, because this is the man I want to be with. The love comes in the form of taking care of me when I'm sick, listening to my hopes fears and dreams, caring what's happening in my day to day, holding me and simply listening when I've expressed hurts and cried (about things unrelated to this R, things happening in my personal life). It comes in the form of so much laughter, shared inside jokes, hours of conversations talking about anything and everything and nothing. It comes in the form of bringing my kids home gifts from business trips (they do not have an extremely close bond with him but they know he's my closest friend). Love comes in the form of guidance in my professional and academic life when I've asked for it. It comes in the form of packing me a surprise lunch for school, making me many meals, small thoughtful gifts. Listening and remembering everything I say. Writing me love letters when I ask for them (quite a few have commented on my use of language & even the title of the post. We're both romantics and poets).

 

There is love. This is a relationship built on deceit, dishonesty, and yes, lies. There are also traits like compassion, caring, concern, generosity. I absolutely believe that he has been honest with me at all points and when I've questioned him about certain things (mainly his sex life with her), I do believe what he says to me. I recognize that many will cry hypocrisy (he's proven himself to be a liar and a cheat already, how could I believe him) but he has kept his word to me, and always followed up where he said he would. His actions match his words. He maintains that he is still breaking up with her, and the LC/our split is for all the reasons I mentioned. He does love that other person as I said before, and I am understanding that he must work through his own pain and loss relating to that, on his own. We cannot continue to be so entertained right now. I need to maintain my focus on my life.

 

 

 

While I completely understand the desire to defend someone you love, you're overlooking something very basic here.

You have been involved with him for only 5 months. Five months. The truth is, you do not know this man. You cannot know a person's true character in such as short time. The actions you describe as his 'love' are all very nice. But at 5 months in, you're still in the honeymoon stage of your relationship with a man who already has a partner.

But he is a liar, a coward and a skilled manipulator. You are insisting that he's been honest with you. I'm curious what you think that says about him? Because you don't believe that you're also a victim of his lies and manipulation, does that make his behaviour acceptable?

 

I wish you could truly see that and understand that you - and your children - deserve better. I'm not sure how old you are, but I really hope you're not going to waste any more of your life with this guy.

[KentuckyGent]

As a partnered person myself, I feel it is incredibly selfish to do those things for a single person, and allow the single person to attach themselves to you, knowing that you are not available. It feels good (for the giver and receiver), but it is ultimately not loving. Love is telling that person you care about that they deserve a full relationship with a wonderful single man, even if you want them for yourself.

 

 

But those partnered people (at least my AP) almost act as if they are doing you a favor. Mine even said she had to end things in part because she "couldn't be all things to all people."

[xxoo]

You are very, very right. He and I both know that I deserve someone who can give me their whole heart and that person is not him right now.

 

So why is he playing the role?

 

He doesn't love you enough to put your best interests first. His interests come first. Actions v. words.

[wrinkledforhead]

While I completely understand the desire to defend someone you love, you're overlooking something very basic here.

You have been involved with him for only 5 months. Five months. The truth is, you do not know this man. You cannot know a person's true character in such as short time. The actions you describe as his 'love' are all very nice. But at 5 months in, you're still in the honeymoon stage of your relationship with a man who already has a partner.

But he is a liar, a coward and a skilled manipulator. You are insisting that he's been honest with you. I'm curious what you think that says about him? Because you don't believe that you're also a victim of his lies and manipulation, does that make his behaviour acceptable?

 

I wish you could truly see that and understand that you - and your children - deserve better. I'm not sure how old you are, but I really hope you're not going to waste any more of your life with this guy.

 

I will reflect on a lot of this and try to look objectively.

 

I am 29.

[Calcmag]

So why is he playing the role?

 

He doesn't love you enough to put your best interests first. His interests come first. Actions v. words.

 

Another excellent post.

 

I'm getting the impression that apparently he's playing the role because he's so 'compassionate' and is terribly concerned about his original partner's devastation.

In that case it's a shame his compassion didn't prevent him from getting involved in yet another relationship on the side in the first place.

A truly compassionate man who wanted out would do the right thing and walk away, thereby giving her the freedom to find someone who genuinely loved and wanted to be with her.

[Calcmag]

I will reflect on a lot of this and try to look objectively.

 

I am 29.

 

So I hope I don't sound patronising, because that's not the intention at all, 29 to me is still so very young. That's because I'm old. You have many of your best years just ahead of you. I do hope that you don't waste more time with him.

Is he much older?

[wrinkledforhead]

So I hope I don't sound patronising, because that's not the intention at all, 29 to me is still so very young. That's because I'm old. You have many of your best years just ahead of you. I do hope that you don't waste more time with him.

Is he much older?

 

Yes, 20 years older.

[Red Wolverine]

While you did have some insight, and a beautifully written post, and some points do apply, I wanted to clear some things up.

 

His A with her was 3 years. His fling was because she wouldn't have sex with him. She's the kind of woman who'd be perfectly content having sex once a month. At that point in their R, it had been several months. It does not justify or excuse his cheating. He hasn't resented her the entire time, but there are things he's never forgiven her for. I did point out to him yesterday how messed up that was, and he listened closely. I do believe he'll take a close look at it, because that is the kind of person he is.

 

I feel the desire to defend him a bit, because this is the man I want to be with. The love comes in the form of taking care of me when I'm sick, listening to my hopes fears and dreams, caring what's happening in my day to day, holding me and simply listening when I've expressed hurts and cried (about things unrelated to this R, things happening in my personal life). It comes in the form of so much laughter, shared inside jokes, hours of conversations talking about anything and everything and nothing. It comes in the form of bringing my kids home gifts from business trips (they do not have an extremely close bond with him but they know he's my closest friend). Love comes in the form of guidance in my professional and academic life when I've asked for it. It comes in the form of packing me a surprise lunch for school, making me many meals, small thoughtful gifts. Listening and remembering everything I say. Writing me love letters when I ask for them (quite a few have commented on my use of language & even the title of the post. We're both romantics and poets).

 

There is love. This is a relationship built on deceit, dishonesty, and yes, lies. There are also traits like compassion, caring, concern, generosity. I absolutely believe that he has been honest with me at all points and when I've questioned him about certain things (mainly his sex life with her), I do believe what he says to me. I recognize that many will cry hypocrisy (he's proven himself to be a liar and a cheat already, how could I believe him) but he has kept his word to me, and always followed up where he said he would. His actions match his words. He maintains that he is still breaking up with her, and the LC/our split is for all the reasons I mentioned. He does love that other person as I said before, and I am understanding that he must work through his own pain and loss relating to that, on his own. We cannot continue to be so entertained right now. I need to maintain my focus on my life.

 

I suppose this is defending me, too. I'm not an emotional masochist addicted to the pain of this. There are reasons I still have hope, and there are reasons I love him, and I will know for many many reasons that this man does in fact love me.

 

So, there's that. This is someone who shares the same outlooks as me, has many of the same dreams, someone who understands me and someone whom with I am free to be entirely me. I don't hide things from him, we work through any issues we've had with open communication and honesty, and without the A, we have the makings to have a future positive R.

 

Truly, I related to so much of what you said. Unlike a lot of the stories here, my affair did not include drama. There was love, friendship, and trust.

 

My xMM was there for so much. Every doctor's appointment and my subsequent surgery that looked like it was going to end with a terminal cancer diagnosis. All of this at considerable risk to him. I didn't ask him to be there, he insisted.

 

A good man makes mistakes but they also catch up to him. His love for me was genuine. Under any other circumstances, it would have been a relationship worth fighting for.

 

He and his wife did not communicate about much other than their children. Still, he watched her carry and deliver these children, she was there when he buried his parents, and they share a history. These are the things life is about and they lead to attachment and love.

 

It's difficult to accept but the nature of an affair means somebody has to be unhappy to make another happy. It's the natural doom of affairs. The only chance you have is to let him go completely to make a decision. He hasn't made one but you're seeing the waffling of him trying to.

 

Anything else will result in more turmoil for everyone. If you don't and you act fine, you're unfeeling. If you show your feelings, you'll be one more woman he has to manage. You can't act appropriately in this situation by staying in it.

 

Tell him you love him and let him go.

[xxoo]

Yes, 20 years older.

 

Nearly 50?

 

wrinkled, an important lesson for any young woman to learn is that you can not change a man. A weak man this age is unlikely to change into a strong man with integrity. Highly unlikely, affair or no affair.

 

"Compassion" can be a code word for "unwilling to be honest". If the truth hurts, I'll lie. BS. That's not compassion.