Is there any chance of this working out?

[r321148]

So the relationship started in April, I'm 28 and she's 25. We met and things went well. I then had exams so we didn't see each other for 2 weeks. We then met up again a couple of times before she had exams. After her exams things progressed and we were going really well for all of July. We both admitted we really liked each other and that we made each other happy.

 

In August she went to America for 4 weeks and I really missed her but she messaged me every day that she was away. She said she missed me lots of times unprompted. She got back the day before I went away so it was another week before I saw her again. I had an interview on the Tuesday and we arranged to go to spend a day together on the Wednesday. We had a really lovely day together even though I was pretty down about not getting the job I interviewed for.

 

The Thursday she said I could join her with her friend and her friends 4 young children. I had to decline as I needed to job hunt and I had broken 2 toes so couldn't walk too far anyway.

The Friday I job hunted and she was meant to come over in the evening. I had a bad day of job hunting and then she cancelled coming over as her sister let her down so she was stuck away. I told her not to worry about it and that I understood. She called me and we then chatted normally until late into the night before bed.

 

That night I did a lot of thinking and decided that due to the lack of jobs there was a reasonable possibility I might have to move away as my money wouldn't last much longer with no job. I thought it was right to tell her this to prepare her so I wouldn't just end up springing it on her so I text her Saturday morning to ask if we could talk.

On Saturday she was really worried that I was going to be annoyed with her due to the previous evening. I told her not to be silly and of course I wasn't annoyed with her...she then said she was annoyed at herself for letting her family walk all over her.

 

After that I explained my situation and we talked and decided that IF I had to move then due to both of our busy lives (she is in the final year of a nursing degree which is really intense) a long distance relationship realistically wouldn't work as we would barely see each other. She cried at the thought I might have to leave (she says she never cries and I had never seen her cry before). We then had dinner together before she had to go see her family. Everything seemed kind of ok.

 

On Sunday she messaged me to say that she had been doing some thinking and she needed to talk. That evening she came over and said she wanted to end things whether I stayed or not. I asked why and she said she couldn't give me her full focus because of her studies. She said she felt like she let me down on Friday when she couldn't come over and it was likely to happen again with her being so busy. I said that didn't matter to me and that I don't expect her to do anything other than do the best she could. She said she wouldn't feel right and she didn't want for us to end up hating each other.

 

I pressed a little and she then said that she feels that maybe she "doesn't like me enough". She said that the fact she wasn't more prepared to try long distance proved that to her. She said that things had felt different when we were together on Wednesday. I was shocked. She then kissed me on the lips and gave me a hug. We talked a bit longer and agreed to try to stay friends. She then left and as she was leaving turned and kissed me on the lips again. I was now confused as well.

 

The next day I sent her a friendly message to ask if she was ok. Her replies were short and distant. We carried on for Monday and Tuesday having a stretched out text conversation. I then left her alone until Sunday when I text her "good luck for her new placement". She didn't reply.

 

Right up to when she ended it and even straight after I really don't feel her actions were those of somebody who "doesn't like me enough" (given that things have been so fragmented it was still effectively pretty early days). She messaged me everyday from the other side of the world, she said she missed me, she invited me to spend time with a friend and her friends children 2 days before she ended it and she cried when I said I might be leaving just the day before she broke it off. Those are things I would definitely not do if I "didn't like somebody enough".

 

The kissing me and hugging me I also don't think were the actions of somebody who doesn't like me enough. I'm not sure if she just said that to protect herself (or maybe I'm deluded?!) and I think she is worried about the timing and I understand this, but it is something I am willing to work with. She is worried that she might lose focus and not get good grades on her course (this happened before with some family problems last year), which again I understand but I would never do anything to jeopardise her chances.

 

She feels like she would let me down but surely it is for me to decide when she's "letting me down" and whether I can cope with it or not?

I really want to stay friends with her because at the end of everything I really do enjoy her company and I really want her to be happy even if it doesn't ultimately end up being with me (although obviously this would hurt a lot). I don't want to mess up any chances of reconciliation though.

 

I really hope that once things settle down she will be able to have a rethink. Maybe if I can confirm that I am definitely staying it might have an effect? Maybe once she settles into her work she might realise she is actually able to devote a little time to me as well? Again maybe I'm just deluded and this won't happen.

 

I suffer with depression and I do have a tendency to over-think things and blame myself. I have been really down ever since and struggle to sleep and eat. I haven't mentioned this to her and I am not planning to. I am not planning to contact her now for a while as I really don't want to push her away. Does anyone think there is still a chance here? If so how should I approach it? At the moment I am trying to give her space and just focus on the things I need to do but I find myself thinking of her all the time and it gets me down.

 

Sorry for length but really struggling to understand so have put down everything.

Can anyone offer some advice?

Edited September 12, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[r321148]

I also feel really odd about this:

I had 2 previous long term relationships. One of 2.5 years (I ended it) and one of 6 years (she ended it). I never had any desire to contact either of them after we were finished despite the fact I really loved both. I guess it could be the whole closure thing. Those relationships were both clearly at the end (strained, arguments and lack of closeness) and whilst I'd never say they didn't hurt like hell, they did feel over.

This one feels like it was just beginning and had so much left to offer if it was just given the chance (especially as we got on so well even right up to the very end) and that's maybe why I have no idea how to deal with it.

[lylat333]

It sounds like you're approaching it the right way (giving her space and focusing on other things)... obviously there are mixed signals. Pressing her is only going to cause problems.

 

She didn't reply to your last text, I would take that as a sign to keep the foot off the gas pedal and let her be in control of her own actions and initiate contact. Until then, there's really nothing you can do to properly get through to her and communicate how you feel.

 

I don't think anyone can know if this has a chance of working out or not, she will have to come to terms with where her true feelings lie. She probably knows how you feel and that you're hoping this works out. If that's the case keep your cool and imo don't mention depression or decline in eating/sleeping habits to garner sympathy.

[r321148]

Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't planning to contact her about any of those things or try to make her feel guilty. These are my problems and I need to deal with them. Like I said I really want her to be happy and if that is without me then it hurts but so be it.

I guess it is difficult to know how it'll turn out, was just hoping others may have experienced similar or had any thoughts. Any advice on how to deal with these feelings of a lack of closure in the meantime?

[todreaminblue]

I do know if astarted a relationshipand i liked soemoen i woudl eb highly disappointed that they had to move away...i have been an ldr for quite a few years ....saw each other probably every four weeks or so....for a weekend....when he wasnt working he would stay and then go...i was always saying goodbye...i hate freaking goodbyes, I always cry, and ldrs suuuuck big time...sigh.....in saying that ......

 

 

 

i would want to be with the person i cared about, be it in an ldr which i hate...or together in the same vicinity...if it were for work that an ldr was the only way, i would be supportive with a sad heart..because in fact...i swore to myself i would never ever do an ldr again...........i miss people intensely...so i can understand ifthe girl you are seeing is setting up barriers, ldrs are hard work and often very lonely....because it is early days she may be pullign back and is not as invested as you are.......

 

 

give her time..if she does care about you enough she will support you even though its a relationship she is not keen on if there is some kind of end in sight in regards to the distance from each other maybe......some women just wont do it.....its not an ideal long term relationship[ to have distance as a barrier....so that is why she is setting up her own barriers to being close with you............i wish you well....good luck with work...deb

[r321148]

Thanks for the reply.

That was really helpful insight

Maybe it's because it was so early that she decided it wasn't worth it. I can understand that she wouldn't want her grades to suffer for something that may not work out anyway especially if it were to end up as an ldr. I just felt so much potential for this to be a really good relationship and I really would like it to run its course properly... i.e. if it were to end then it should come to the point where we decide we aren't right for each other rather than have it ended by external circumstances.

I still can't really understand her decision to end it now even though there is still a chance I'll stay though. Maybe it's just the uncertainty and she has decided to deal with it now so she can focus rather than hold on and deal with it later if I were to leave? Is that wishful thinking? If this is the case do people think there is any chance she might change her mind if i can confirm I'm staying? I don't want to hold onto something that is definitely over but I am also finding it hard to let go.

[todreaminblue]

Thanks for the reply.

That was really helpful insight

Maybe it's because it was so early that she decided it wasn't worth it. I can understand that she wouldn't want her grades to suffer for something that may not work out anyway especially if it were to end up as an ldr. I just felt so much potential for this to be a really good relationship and I really would like it to run its course properly... i.e. if it were to end then it should come to the point where we decide we aren't right for each other rather than have it ended by external circumstances.

I still can't really understand her decision to end it now even though there is still a chance I'll stay though. Maybe it's just the uncertainty and she has decided to deal with it now so she can focus rather than hold on and deal with it later if I were to leave? Is that wishful thinking? If this is the case do people think there is any chance she might change her mind if i can confirm I'm staying? I don't want to hold onto something that is definitely over but I am also finding it hard to let go.

 

 

so you would change your plans on a maybe.......and confirm you would stay for her....i think you should make concrete plans to do what you said you were going to........there is a chance she may change her mind if you stay but the truth is she must have doubt......because if she really thought it would work with you now........she would have said yes.....she has focus on studies you staying isnt going to change that.

 

 

 

if that is her motivation with teh studying thing...... that means she isnt going to start another relationship while studying....so go....if she is there when you come back.....you might have a better chance at actually making it work without a possible stress break up which could happen if you stay ...her focus at the moment isnt on you now, that you told her you might or maybe moving...if she cares she will be there when you get back..deb

[r321148]

Thanks for the reply.

It's not a case of changing my plans. My first choice has always been to stay here regardless of things with her. I've moved around a lot in the past (various unis, travels and jobs) but I feel settled here, have friends here and really like my current city. If I can find a job here then I will stay and that is my strongest desire, however if I can't I will have no choice but to move on again. I only ever told her about this to try to be fair to her and let her know it was a possibility.

I'm not a needy person and I have no problems with her focusing on her studies. I actually really admire people who have drive and ambition so would support her in all she did. I do understand her worries but I'd be completely willing to cooperate and if I felt that I was affecting her studies then I'd end things myself as I really do want the best for her.

I am continuing to give her space but I am struggling with my own feelings.

[r321148]

I'm still so confused about this. She still hasn't responded to my text on Sunday even with a simple "thank you". I haven't text her again. She never said to me in her break up speech that she wanted space and was really pleased that I suggested friendship. She replied to some stuff initially but now it's been over a week since I heard from her (considering we used to speak everyday). Does she need time? Does she actually want friendship at all or was it just a way to make her feel less guilty? Should I even be considering friendship with her?

I went on a date yesterday (a friend suggested it and set me up) and the girl was completely lovely but all it did really was show me that I'm not over this. We had a great laugh and chatted for hours but she just wasn't right. I don't think I will go on anymore dates for a while as I don't think this is fair.

I am sleeping a bit now but keep having the same dreams and waking up really early with the same thoughts swimming in my head. I just wonder what would have happened if I hadn't mentioned that I may have to leave....it was only on the 2nd time I saw her again after not seeing each other for over a month so I think I could have timed it better. Maybe if I'd been able to leave it for a couple of weeks then things would have got back up to where they were before the break for each of our holidays and I'm convinced that then her reaction would have been different.

She said things felt 'different' when we met up. I am not really sure what she was expecting...we hadn't seen each other in a month and were both pretty stressed about things in our own lives (my job hunt and her preparing for her final year). I actually had a lovely day with her and I really felt that she did too. She was smiling and laughing and hugging and kissing me the same as she always did. I'm just so worried I've done something wrong to mess things up that she is not telling me about. She gave me the standard "you're really lovely", "it's nothing you've done wrong", "it's just terrible timing" lines but I can't help but think I could have done more. I don't really want to talk to her about this (not yet at least) as I don't want to push her away but really needed to get it off my chest.

[lylat333]

She gave me the standard "you're really lovely", "it's nothing you've done wrong", "it's just terrible timing" lines but I can't help but think I could have done more. I don't really want to talk to her about this (not yet at least) as I don't want to push her away but really needed to get it off my chest.

 

It sucks, but if it were me I would leave it alone and NOT talk to her about this until she changes or comes around more. It's a bad sign when someone won't respond with simple texts. I think if you try to take the steering wheel and make something happen, you'll be playing right into her hands and giving her more power.

 

"it's nothing you've done nothing wrong", "it's terrible timing" Translation: "I know this isn't fair to you, but I really love it when you stroke my ego."

 

I used to get so hung up on closure and getting things off my chest... sadly it doesn't work too well. She's in a different place emotionally and is unable to be receptive to your sincerity, I fear it will only be used against you instead.

[r321148]

You're right. I know I do just need to leave it alone. She ended things and told me how busy she is, so the ball is definitely in her court. I do want to respect her wishes and do believe in "if you love someone let them go" I think that's why I posted on here....it gets it off my chest without contacting her.

I don't think she is playing games though and I'm not sure it is about power. I know it might seem like that from what I've written but it's just a feeling I've got from her is that her reasons were genuine. I'm not sure why but for some reason I believe her. The timing is bad and I can see that (for both of us). The difference here is that I am prepared to give things a go and she isn't. She worries about things whereas I was more of the opinion of you don't know until you try.

I know I need to assume this is never going to happen and move on. Then if anything does happen it will be a bonus (provided my feelings haven't changed by then). I am probably never going to get closure on this and that is difficult for me but I guess it's just something I need to deal with.

[r321148]

So things have changed somewhat. I have a job and now am staying here.

I'm wondering if I should tell her this. I've not contacted her for 2 weeks now and it's been 3 since we spoke properly. I don't know if this will change anything and I'm not even that sure if I want it to now.... She gave up really easily and it hurt but I don't know if she just did that to avoid putting strain on her course and her emotions. It was too early in the relationship for that kind of pressure and I actually agreed with her that long distance in all practicality wouldn't work as we would never see each other. Difference being is I was prepared to take the risk.

So do I give it the benefit of the doubt and contact her to see what she says or shall I just leave her alone and see if she contacts me?

[r321148]

So she contacted me. Was nothing in it. Just a friendly "hey, how are you? what have you been up to?" IM. I responded back with a few bits and pieces and asked how she was getting on. She replied straight back with she was doing well and enjoying her work but lots to learn. I then cut the convo short as I was off out and just left it with a "speak soon". I haven't told her I'm staying put yet.

I realised recently I never really told her how I felt about her properly. I don't think this was the problem but I am regretting it a bit, although I hope she knows from my actions how much I care about her.

Now I know I'm staying what do people think? Should I be telling her I'm staying and seeing if she is willing to give us another go or should I keep the ball in her court?

I am disappointed that she gave up on us so easily, although I do understand to some extent. Whatever happens I have no hard feelings against her and I will continue to talk to her whenever she contacts me. Just not sure if I should be pushing to try to see if she'll reconsider or if that will do more harm than good. Any thoughts?

[r321148]

Anyone experienced anything similar and have advice? I am tempted to just tell her that I love her. Although maybe that's a bad idea, I'm just so confused about what to do/say, if anything. Thoughts would be great if anyone has any?

[organizedchaos]

IMO, it couldn't hurt to casually drop that you're excited about a new job you've just started and don't have to leave. And leave it at that. Don't put pressure or say anything more than that. Give her that info to swirl around in her head. It could change things in her mind but you have to let her come to that conclusion.

[r321148]

I'm blaming the alcohol for the message I put here last night! Still better to post here than message her! Sending her a drunken "I love you" message last night would have been a really bad idea lol!

Thanks for the advice though. I will take your advice and let her know I'm staying next time we speak. It's a little difficult though because even though we are on speaking terms she is still quite distant. We have had about 2 short conversations on IM about general things since we broke up and that's about it (her work, sport, studies etc). We've not seen each other or spoken on phone etc. I guess she is just adding distance to try to make things less difficult for herself?

I kind of wish she wouldn't because I'm now staying and the issue that sparked the break up has been removed. I guess maybe she really doesn't like me enough though and if that is the case then I need to stop thinking about this.

I just can't work it out. In my mind: that she went from crying at the thought that I might have to leave to wanting to break it off in the space of one night tells me that she just put barriers up to protect herself and her studies. I'm not sure though and I really don't want to delude myself. Thing is if there is a chance of it getting back on track I'd like to give it a go. I guess I'm in a fairly fortunate situation in that I don't really have any need to date anyone else so I can wait without really waiting if that makes sense. I've got to a point where I'm pretty happy with my own company (although I still have my moments!). I enjoy my new job, have been going out with friends and now autumn is here I've gone back into sports. I have enough to keep me occupied although my head is a bit of a muddle over this still.

I know nobody knows whats in her head but her but any thoughts on what might be going on here?

Should I:

Put cards on the table tell her how I feel and tell her that I am staying and want to give it another shot?

Be a friend to her for the time being and see if anything develops?

Cut her out of my life?

Another option I haven't thought of?

Thanks in advance!

[Polak]

Did you hint that you were staying yet? There would be a few things that could go wrong if you just flat out confessed your love for her, at least right now, so wait on that. Lylat's first post in this thread was right on, and definitely still applies: you have to be patient, and hold off a bit until she comes around more, don't press her.

 

Sounds like she still is in her studies and keeping busy, but that doesn't mean you should cut her out of your life just yet. There is still potential in this situation; she can still come around, some people just take longer than others to realize what they're missing. At the same time, there is always the possibility of nothing progressing, but you'd have to wait and see to be sure. Patience is key.

[r321148]

I've not told her yet no. I'm not really sure what is the right amount of contact here. Her replies to the few things I have sent are very short and quite non-committal so I wonder if she doesn't want me to message her at all? I don't want to annoy her and make things difficult for her by keep messaging her if she doesn't want me to. I'll try again in a few days and let her know I'm staying unless she contacts me before.

I agree the more I think about it, it would be a really bad idea to tell her how I feel at the moment. Would definitely be coming on too strong and the most likely outcome is that it would scare her off more.

She does seem to be keeping busy and seems quite happy. Maybe that's a sign she is better off without me and I should leave her alone? I don't really use Facebook but the few times I've been on there she updates saying things about being happy with how things are going and good times she's had with her friends.

I do have a lot of patience and like I say I'm not really looking for anything at the moment anyway. Unless I can be with her then I'm actually quite happy to be single for a while.

I just wish I could stop trying to second guess her. I find this difficult as my head seems to want explanations for everything no matter how much I keep telling it to leave it alone! The confusion is irritating and I constantly have to catch myself and tell myself to stop overthinking it! This would be much easier if we'd broken up on bad terms. Then I could do what I've done in other relationships and just cut them out and move on!

[BC1980]

I just wish I could stop trying to second guess her. I find this difficult as my head seems to want explanations for everything no matter how much I keep telling it to leave it alone! The confusion is irritating and I constantly have to catch myself and tell myself to stop overthinking it! This would be much easier if we'd broken up on bad terms. Then I could do what I've done in other relationships and just cut them out and move on!

 

I think that this is one of the best reasons for NC. The emotional and mental stress you go through trying to figure out what the other person wants. It shouldn't be this hard.

 

It doesn't sound like she wants to be with you right now based on what you have said about your contact with her. NC helped me tremendously. I'm still sad, but I'm not always wondering about what my ex's intentions are when he would contact me.

[r321148]

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you that in most cases it is the best way. It just doesn't feel like the right thing to do here.

 

I know I shouldn't apply my mindset to somebody else but I have been on the other side of a similar situation.

About 6 years ago I started seeing a girl. I had just gotten out of a hurtful relationship, had a lot of stress from my uni degree and was just not in a great place for a relationship. Basically we were together for a month and I flaked out on her. I told her I didn't want a relationship with her as I didn't feel enough for her and that I only liked her as a friend. She was really supportive and said she understood. We then remained friends for the next 3 months. She was really sweet and supportive and her presence without the pressure of a relationship helped me see what a lovely person she was. We spent more and more time together. Soon stress cleared a bit and I was over the trust issues developed from my previous relationship so I told her that if she was still interested, I wanted us to give it another go at being together. She was a little hesitant and we went slowly to start off with but it all worked out and we had a really happy and loving relationship for the next 5 years. I don't think that relationship would ever have happened if she had gone NC with me. I was genuinely confused and just in a bad place. When that changed she was there right in front of me for me to see that she was perfect for me.

 

I know I can't apply that to my current situation as everyone is different but it is something I'm thinking about.

[r321148]

Despite the title of this post, it's not that kind of breakthrough.

I just realised something last night....

So 2 days ago I messaged her saying I had news and asked if she still wanted to meet up for a drink (she said in her break up speech "let's meet in a couple of weeks and catch up on things as I really care about you and don't want to lose you). And.....nothing. Not even a "no sorry I don't think that's a good idea"/"I'm not ready yet"/"in your dreams" etc. Nothing. I really thought she was better than that. I sent it on IM so I can see she's read it. As far as I know I've done nothing to deserve being blanked. I've given her space, I've not begged or pleaded with her, I've respected her decision to end things, I've never pressured her and when I have contacted her I've always been light-hearted and friendly.

So last night i realised... you know what I don't need her. Things are sky rocketing in my life at the moment. My new boss is so impressed he's given me a raise and more responsibility after 2 weeks in the job, he said he sees me becoming a partner in the next 2 years. I played my first football (soccer) game for 2 years on Sunday; we won and I scored. Yesterday I tackled the hardest route I've done yet (Hard V Diff for you climbers out there!). I have 2 girls who genuinely seem interested in me...annoyingly I'm not so interested in them and I will tell them so but it is nice for confidence and for showing me that I don't have to put up with someone who doesn't really want me.

To be honest I'm not angry with her I just expected better and really if this is the person she is then I don't want to be with her anyway. I just feel kind of indifferent. If she were to contact me suggesting reconciliation I think it would take a lot on her part to show me that I actually mean something to her. I don't rule it out but I don't think I'd say yes straight away either.

[lylat333]

Glad to hear you are doing better, r321148. I just got caught up on this thread again, I forgot I had posted in it! It's all back to me now, though.

 

Yeah, I got the vibe all along if you went for her she was just going to string you along or use it against you. She's abusing the position of power she's in.

 

Silence is the worst, usually the most bruising thing to the ego of the person trying to reach out. Sometimes people respect a dumper for not entertaining contact when things are sensitive, others see it as selfish. Seems selfish here since she said she wanted to meet up with you in a couple of weeks anyway. She's had 2 days to respond, so…? btw I've never seen a dumpee handle a decision to end things as gracefully as you. I thought some amount of pleading/begging was pretty much inevitable!

 

My ex blanked the 2 olive branches I tried to reach out with. I wrote a letter 10 days after I last heard from her and then 10 days after that I commented on a FB picture she uploaded. After a point the idea of coming back to someone who started ignoring you so abruptly for an extended period of time feels pathetic and undignified.

 

Don't forget it's not the first time she ignored you. Early on there was a text she didn't respond to. Even though it's "just a text" it's a definite red flag imo. I'm sure you already know NC is the way for you to go from here... how you decide to handle the possibility of her reaching out is up to you. You should come out of this smelling like roses.

[joe86]

I'm keeping an eye on this.

 

My ex sent me a text saying she had been thinking about meeting for coffee after work one day a few weeks ago. She said she wanted this following the BU. The day she sent it, we text a bit in he evening and it was friendly. I told her it was up to her to arrange anything. The day after I text again because she let on it would be a tough day, but she didn't respond. A week later I got in touch again to see how she felt. We admitted we were both happy at the moment.

 

She's been silent since. So I'll be following the same advice I can find in here

Thanks guys.

[r321148]

Thanks for the replies and the support.

Yeah I think I probably realised all along that there was possibly not that much hope, I just wanted to give it a try. I tried to stay friendly as I thought that was what she wanted (being as that's what she told me she wanted!)

I accepted the possibility I might get more hurt and took the risk; I like to think I'm fairly experienced and I know I'm a pretty tough person and will bounce back from most things. At least now I can say I tried. Looking back I really think my initial reaction was more down to the lack of a job and the uncertainty about my future. With a relationship going wrong too it was just too much all at once.

Now I'm feeling good about myself and I can honestly say I just don't care that much anymore (although of course I miss her). I'm living for today and if tomorrow brings her back then we'll see what happens, if it doesn't then I am fine with that too.

"Silence is the worst, usually the most bruising thing to the ego of the person trying to reach out." - exactly. It's just rude. Even if she told me to "get bent" at least I'd know where I stood.

 

"btw I've never seen a dumpee handle a decision to end things as gracefully as you." - Thanks . I've been trying to just step back and look at what I would want if I were on the other side. It's not easy when you're caught up in something but having been on both sides of a break up I know a lot of the range of emotions.

 

"We admitted we were both happy at the moment" - I'm glad you got to this point and hope you continue your progress. I think you already know what you need to do here. You have offered her support, tried to reach out to her and she knows you will be receptive if she arranges meeting for coffee so I'd just let her come to you now.

Edited October 1, 2013 by r321148

[Polak]

It really is excellent to hear that things are going so well for you at the moment! Believe it or not, I learned quite a bit from this thread.