I think I'm ready for the end now

[WrinkledForehead]

It's vacation. It's not work, right? Screw "not stressing his vacation" with this. I'd tell him right now that he needs to take the relaxing time while he's there to decide what he wants and you expect an answer (and actions to support it) when he gets back. Period.

 

I'm in a show no mercy mood today, though.

 

I think that's pretty much where I am, too. I eluded to as much before he left. It was either before he went or he needed to find his head while he's gone.

 

I'm mustering up the courage to make my actions match my words before I state it simply and more direct than I have. Deep breaths.

[2sunny]

I told MM before he left on vacation that I didnt want to be the OW. Since then, Ive viewed our R as the primary, and contact with her has been strained. In the week and a half before he left, he saw her for an hour one night. And she gave him a ride to the train station. This was intolerable for me and I said as much. I was repulsed by the thought of him giving her some dry kiss goodbye (he's compared her kiss to that of an aunt. It's always been dispassionate) immediately after leaving me, still smelling of me. So I refused to see him the night before he left. :/ it killed me, but I put my foot down. He had other options besides that.

 

He's gone for 10 days. Today is day 2.

 

Three days before he left, he said he finally came to peace with his decision. He went to her for that hour partly to grab some things before the trip (she was supposed to go originally but did not, due to personal reasons) and he said also to see if he could just spit out the words that he was leaving her. He could not and did not.

 

He wrote me yesterday, saying many things. Part of his words were him saying I deserved his whole heart, body, and mind, and that he's annoyed with himself for not delivering. Prior to the trip I encouraged him to use the reprieve to heal (both of our sleeping and eating habits are pretty messed up at this point) his body and to find some inner peace. I'm using the time to do the same: the homestead is 100% in order, I'm focusing on my studies, and I need to plan some time to drop off job apps (my summer seasonal job ended and I only have my part time job as a lab assistant).

 

But when he gets back...

 

Because she dropped him off at the train station she'll definitely pick him up. It disgusts me, really. It shouldn't, but it does. I think because I know his mindset that its a huge turn off. He isn't in love with her, and does this out of habit of the many years they've done this.

 

Why didnt he just tell her in that hour? Why not on the way to the train station? We're all sick of it at this point. Why not relieve the stress by letting healing begin for everyone?

 

So, this is a forced LC situation.

 

He knows I won't be OW. He knows he has to end that situation. Part of me wants to put my foot down and say no. Freaking. More. A lot of me wants to tell him to be done within a week of getting home. I've not want to set a direct ultimatum ("it's her or me") but my ultimatum lies within my self respect. I deserve more, I can *have* more. I know I'm lovable. I've stayed because I believe in us and in our love, but he's had time.

 

I want to hold him to his word that he's leaving her. A man is only as good as his word, after all, and if he can't man up and take the actions he says he needs to take, then I've little respect for him in the end.

 

How do I enforce this? Do I refuse to see him when he gets back? Like I said, I'm turned off by the act of him seeing her right now when he's told me all that he has about needing to leave her. And the distance via vacation (6000 miles away) will certainly benefit me in gathering strength while he's gone. I can only hope he takes a sincere look at himself and the mess we're in and figure himself out. I know that's what I have to do as well.

 

You say:

 

You don't want to be the OW - yet you are.

 

You say he wants to tell her it's over - yet he hasn't.

 

 

I think you have your answers based on actions.

[2sunny]

we've spent far more time in the last 6 months having an R than analyzing anything. This last month has been focused on analyzing. If I didnt look at what I want, and he didnt look at what he want, then we'd likely not have gotten to this point, him ready to leave her.

 

Those months have been spent having an affair.

 

There's a difference between a relationship and an affair.

 

Since his primary R is with her - your's is the affair.

 

Make no bones about it. And he isn't as truthful as you say - or he would have kept his word when he said he would tell her that Friday.

[bentleychic]

I think that's pretty much where I am, too. I eluded to as much before he left. It was either before he went or he needed to find his head while he's gone.

 

I'm mustering up the courage to make my actions match my words before I state it simply and more direct than I have. Deep breaths.

Yup, that's the hard part. Laying the words/ultimatum down and following through with them.

[tiernan]

go for ultimatum. if you wait longer you will just be hurting more, mine left his wife as he said he would after we went NC for 20 days after out affair ended, it was two years ago and now he is coming back to her, i should have given the ultimatum about the divorce papers instead of waiting for him to push things forward with it

[velvette]

Yup, that's the hard part. Laying the words/ultimatum down and following through with them.

 

The only healthy way to get what we want from other people is to ask for it. Its really that simple. They will give it or not.

 

Same goes for getting unhealthy stuff out of our lives. You have to say directly that you will not accept it.

 

Surely this whole scenario is not how you define love either for yourself or his gf? I wouldn't do what he's doing even to a friend, would you?

 

You could spend the rest of your life trying to make sense out of his nonsense, but it would still be nonsense.

 

Stop twisting yourself into a pretzel to accommodate and understand him. Go back to what you believe, state it clearly and remove yourself from his drama.

 

Once you get very clear with yourself, it will be a lot easier to do the right thing for yourself.

[truthbetold]

Well, anyone who has commitment issues can trot out reasons why they haven't committed to anyone and this is not a young man. This is a middle aged man who it seems from your description has lived without committing to anyone other than in the ways that made him feel comfortable........i.e. ways that gave him the appearance/comfort/feeling of being committed without doing any of the hard work commitment requires.

You didn't say the reasons he can't/won't end things decisively with her.

 

This man is showing you who he is and how he deals with things. I would take a really hard look at whether or not his way of navigating life is compatible with mine.

 

I don't think ultimatums are useful when given to others. We can only control ourselves. His behavior may change if you do something different but there is no guarantee of that. In this like any other situation, you need to decide what you want, whats acceptable/whats not, communicate that and then take actions that back up your words.

 

WF I'm sorry you're still looking for hope in this, I really am. All of Velvette's posts are spot on but especially this one, and especially the bolded.

 

When I speak of my happily married status it most certainly takes work. Enjoyable work because we are learning and improving ourselves but neither of us came out of a box all perfectly meshed with each other but you have to have or employ healthier coping tools. We are in this commitment for life, and I hope to have another 30-35 God be willing 40 more years, so while we're working at this, we might as well make it fun. That's a choice.

 

A must for a healthy relationship is there cannot be any conflict avoidant behaviors or passive aggressiveness which I'm sorry to say your guy displays both of those in spades. Sure he "tells" you all about how he will work this or that out with you and can make plans til the cows come home, but when reality hits, he falls very short. Just look at this behavior of her taking him the station?! I mean really, does that make ANY sense that was necessary? Does he have no other friends, or even a cab? She was his only choice? I find that incredibly hard to believe.

 

And of course it's all easy for you two now, it's the honeymoon period. My husband and I met and married pretty quickly, but we had the foundation and the same core beliefs that we knew we could work through anything but we also knew at times it wouldn't be easy, but I think at times both of us underestimated exactly the work it would take at times. And I'm sure you can say "but we're different we mesh perfectly"

 

Well so did we in the beginning. Every single in-love romantic relationship goes through that exact same phase of bonding. But it takes work years later to keep the spark and no matter what it's never going to be "that" intense as it was in the first year or two. It's not sustainable, God of course knew nothing would get done in the world if our only desire was to stay in bed ALL day!

 

This is where many couples and ESPECIALLY couples that came from affairs once realizing that ANY relationship is going to take work fail. Nobody just coasts effortlessly 24/7 with each other, it's impossible. Oh we too thought because all of our values and character lined up that it would very "easy" but that's not reality. We both have different approaches to things.

 

Plus I came from an abusive situation, though I got healthier on my own, I dated some duds that exploited that so I learned to be harder in some ways to take no crap and put up with very little in a relationship You better mean what you say and do what you say every single step of the way not just sometimes. I was not putting up with a man's excuses for being a mess, I would have rather stayed single.

 

In an argument we had to learn to stay on present topic, moreso I had to learn to trust if we were just talking in a circle it was much better to take a day with cooler calmer heads and revisit the problem to work it out. I was very much a "hash it out that night even if it took til 3am" type person, lol and it was very counterproductive. Now we actually solve things and move forward stronger. He learned to not clam up because he might say the wrong thing.

 

But conflict avoidant types that are passive aggressive to boot have horrible coping skills. They will cheat to get what they want instead of doing the work. They chase the high that new relationships offers, they want CONSTANT state of butterflies and the CONSTANT state is not sustainable. You can still very much keep chemistry strong "with effort and choice" with your partner, but cheaters mostly lack that wanting to do the hard work.

 

I would seriously say I see that played out about 98 percent of affair relationships. Of course you're going to have the odd percent that do work, but they're in the minority.

 

So yeah, my advice for you of course is going to be to tell him you thought about things, but this isn't working for you. I wouldn't give him the "come find me when you have completely left" and would say, this isn't working and have a nice life, I do deserve better.

 

Because you see Wrinkled, we do teach others how to treat us. One thing I always expected and got was if there was a bad coping skill we worked on the ways to fix and overcome them. I'm very big on just because that was your learned coping skill in the past doesn't mean you get to say "oh well, that's how I learned to cope and you'll just have to learn to live with that as that's all I know" type thing, Oh H.E. double hockey sicks, NO!

 

You are teaching this guy he can give you all sorts of excuses because he's broken right now and you'll put up with it in the name of "love". I've said it before Wrinkled, this guy if he does end up pulling his balls out of his arse is going to be a NIGHTMARE to live with for you. He's a very poor relationship bet, but your life your choices. It's just pretty easy to see when your heart isn't all tangled up in the situation.

 

He should be putting your first in this situation, there should be no confusion and no waffling. His indecision is your answer. You accept this you are setting the stage. If when you say goodbye have a nice life he takes 6 mos or a year to get his crap and poor coping skills together and comes back to you after zero contact healthier and happier on his own, then "maybe" you could proceed with caution. For me this man-wussiness would be an absolute deal breaker and I would want a healthier man right off the bat. Not some ball-less wonder that hurts people out of his own selfishness and confusion. Life is way too short to waste on a middle aged man that doesn't have his crap together.

[Red Wolverine]

You are teaching this guy he can give you all sorts of excuses because he's broken right now and you'll put up with it in the name of "love". I've said it before Wrinkled, this guy if he does end up pulling his balls out of his arse is going to be a NIGHTMARE to live with for you. He's a very poor relationship bet, but your life your choices. It's just pretty easy to see when your heart isn't all tangled up in the situation.

 

This is spot on. xMM told me his wife referred to their marriage as bent, not broken.

 

Regardless of the marriage, he was broken. You'd have to be to do what he was doing. Not just the affair, but the act of keeping two women hanging.

 

Cruelty demonstrates brokenness. Once I saw that, I couldn't spend my life waiting for my turn. Huge character flaw.

[2sunny]

He's paying a counselor for guidance, right?

 

And she worked with him to tell her 2 or 3 weeks ago - and then didn't do the action he had stated.

 

And I'm wondering what the counselor said after that? I'm also wondering why he's paying money for guidance IF he just does opposite of what the professional helped him with.

 

I mean - he pays for help then he doesn't do what he paid for.

 

What is he doing? Besides delaying any new action that changes things.

 

He's STILL a big fat liar cuz actions don't match his empty promises.

[2sunny]

He isn't TIED legally or monetarily or physically to her - so he COULD have integrity and end it with a few words - yet he hasn't - and he's had the extra weeks to say just that to her but he won't.

 

And since he hasn't - I doubt he will. But if YOU ALLOW all this to continue... He will keep you in the side...that's IF you allow it.

 

I can't see one thing admirable about that kind of mean.

 

 

SHE took him to the train - SHE is his first priority - THAT should tell you everything he WON'T say!

[Mount]

You should ask the question in different angle - Given this man even not married, how come "WrinkledForehead" would even buy into his lame excuse all along continuing to be this man's side-dish and being strung along.

 

My comment/conclusion is that "He is just not that into you", so "WrinkledForehead" should not waste more time venting here, because the result won't change at all. What a waste of time even typing so much.

 

I don't know the ages of OP and her OM. I suspect they must be well into their 40s or 50s.

 

The OM is flaky and cannot commit That is why he has a 15 year non-committed relationship with the betrayed woman with no children, not living together, no mixed finances, no sex, etc.

 

For the love of God! Is this the definition of flake?

 

Most married APs have excuses like the kids (too young), need to wait till kid gets out of HS or college, the dogs, the cat, mortgage, retirement, family, religion, friends, small town, big city, too rich, too poor, betrayed spouse is sick, betrayed spouse is evil, cannot sell the house, need an apartment, etc, etc.

 

I would love to know what excuse OM is using.[/QUOTE]

[SidLyon]

I think that's pretty much where I am, too. I eluded to as much before he left. It was either before he went or he needed to find his head while he's gone.

 

I'm mustering up the courage to make my actions match my words before I state it simply and more direct than I have. Deep breaths.

 

"WrinkledForehead", I just wanted to check that you are the same person as "wrinkledforhead" that was posting a week or two ago? If so, I've already given you my opinions, so no need for me to repeat.

[WrinkledForehead]

"WrinkledForehead", I just wanted to check that you are the same person as "wrinkledforhead" that was posting a week or two ago? If so, I've already given you my opinions, so no need for me to repeat.

 

Yes. The typo drove me nuts from the first time I logged in.

[WrinkledForehead]

I don't have to say anything.

 

He emailed me saying everything I said: that he won't see me until he ends it with her. No more affair, and that he's not just a past chapter.

 

Well.

 

And for the person who said hes just not into me, I had to giggle. I've dated before, and this one is definitely into me.

 

Pierre? I think it was who asked our ages. I'm 29 and he's 49.

 

The reason he hasn't left her yet is on the first page of this post, in the replies.

[WrinkledForehead]

You are 29, he is 49 and he is unsure??????

 

This man needs his head examined. Most men in that age group will gladly go all out for a woman as young as you are.

 

The question that begs an answer:

 

Why are you dating an unavailable man that is much older than you and is unable to commit to you? Low expectations? No suitable men in your country of origin?

 

I'll be mocked, but here goes.

 

I love this man very much and he loves me very much. I've enough men who hit on me. I had an active dating life prior to this. I learned a lot from those relationships as far as what I want and need from a life partner. I've learned a lot of that from this R, too.

 

We met. We clicked instantly. We tried (albeit not extremely hard) to stay away from each other. The more we saw each other the more we developed and bonded. I've never been able to be so open and honest and direct with another person. I'm free to express myself, and him himself, and it is good.

 

It's not that he's unsure (anymore). He wanted to look at that R independent of ours and find what had really gone wrong (he's admitted to his faults there) and examine if it could be fixed. A few weeks ago he was struggling with his decision. I understand why. He came to me earlier this week and said he had his moment of decision and resolve. Two days later he left on vacation. He maintains that he is leaving her, and the next time he sees me it will be as a single man.

[Mount]

Yes I believe you had dated plenty, and this MM had plenty too. Can't you not see, comparing to all other women, you are the one that needs lowest "investment" (time-wise, or his life wise). He just needs to use his lip service, and you would all believe, and you would all invest your time and engery thinking your so-called love/relationship is his priority too. Basically you are projecting your feeling upon his.

 

Tons of so-called "I love you" from lips or connection/confiding means nothing. His 100% devotion to you means something.

 

Do we even need to say more, that is common sense, isn' it?

 

I don't have to say anything.

 

He emailed me saying everything I said: that he won't see me until he ends it with her. No more affair, and that he's not just a past chapter.

 

Well.

 

And for the person who said hes just not into me, I had to giggle. I've dated before, and this one is definitely into me.

 

Pierre? I think it was who asked our ages. I'm 29 and he's 49.

 

The reason he hasn't left her yet is on the first page of this post, in the replies.

[Mount]

Exactly, here those excuses such as "He loves me BUT he can not leave wife, kids, pets, house....etc" are invalid.

 

If the man is into the woman, and he is not married, what else needs to be discussed. Any further excuse is just simply meaning he does not want to. Sugar coating does not work here anymore.

 

Ok, I will tell you a little secret. For many women dating single men sucks. Sometimes these women are attracted to players because they know how to make a woman feel special. However, in the end it does not work because the player is dating other women and is not interested in a committed relationship.

 

These women then try to date non players but, they get bored with them because they have no game.

 

Enter the married man that is looking for extracurricular activity. This man does not have as many options as a single man because he is taken. However, off he finds a woman that does not mind his natural status he can turn on the charm like no one else in the planet. The woman that pays attention is like an oasis in the desert and be makes sure he is attentive, charming, and pertinent. For the woman that has been struggling with single men the cheating guy is also like an oasis.

 

In the end these relationships tend to fail.

 

However, your guy is practically single, I am a bit puzzled. Why is this guy behaving like a typical cheating married man with kids, a mortgage, a dog, etc?

[2sunny]

I'll be mocked, but here goes.

 

I love this man very much and he loves me very much. I've enough men who hit on me. I had an active dating life prior to this. I learned a lot from those relationships as far as what I want and need from a life partner. I've learned a lot of that from this R, too.

 

We met. We clicked instantly. We tried (albeit not extremely hard) to stay away from each other. The more we saw each other the more we developed and bonded. I've never been able to be so open and honest and direct with another person. I'm free to express myself, and him himself, and it is good.

 

It's not that he's unsure (anymore). He wanted to look at that R independent of ours and find what had really gone wrong (he's admitted to his faults there) and examine if it could be fixed. A few weeks ago he was struggling with his decision. I understand why. He came to me earlier this week and said he had his moment of decision and resolve. Two days later he left on vacation. He maintains that he is leaving her, and the next time he sees me it will be as a single man.

 

I can't see how he is believable at this point- mainly because he has said this before and didn't tell her. And also because IF he decided THAT BEFORE he left - why in the hell didn't he tell her before he left - and why did he have HER take him to the train station?

 

His evidence is just not believable.

 

If he determined that - then he should have ended it before he left.

 

I'd stop communicating while he's away - he needs to prove his intent with his actions. So far - his actions contradict his promises - and the bottom line is ---> it makes him a liar.

 

Expect him to break his promise again - because he seems to have no courage in being HONEST with HER so far!

 

You can't control him - or her - but you CAN control what you do at this point.

 

IF he doesn't tell her - you will just be further disappointed - and pulling away now may save you some hurt feelings.

 

I'd go with no more contact until he can say it IS OVER with her.

Edited September 16, 2013 by 2sunny

[whichwayisup]

I'm 29 and he's 49.

 

Have you two talked about children? You're young and I take you want to have a baby. Correct if I'm wrong.

 

This guy is 49. Not that it's too old to, but he may not be interested in being a daddy.

 

This might have something to do with why he's dragging his feet ending it with his gf. You have high hopes and expectations, you want to get married and (possibly) have children.

[2sunny]

He's paying a counselor for guidance, right?

 

And she worked with him to tell her 2 or 3 weeks ago - and then didn't do the action he had stated.

 

And I'm wondering what the counselor said after that? I'm also wondering why he's paying money for guidance IF he just does opposite of what the professional helped him with.

 

I mean - he pays for help then he doesn't do what he paid for.

 

What is he doing? Besides delaying any new action that changes things.

 

He's STILL a big fat liar cuz actions don't match his empty promises.

 

What did his counselor say to him when he failed to do the action he agreed to Do? He made that agreement with the counselor too - and didn't keep his word.

 

What was the response to him backing down on his plan of action?

[shortee]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The man is a sociopath and a compulsive liar. He needs therapy for that. His actions don't match his words at all. And you don't know that he's telling the truth about anything. He could have taken his girlfriend with him for all you know. He still allowed her to come with him to the train station, acting as his gf still. You refuse to see all the red flags. He is not an honest man.

[MissBee]

Wrinkled,

 

I'm sorry you're feeling like you will be mocked. I don't think it's most people's intentions, but since they have no emotional attachment to him/the situation, see it in a less optimistic light.

 

Based on what you've said about him and the situation, do I believe he is "different" and he is leaving and this is a match made in heaven? To be truthful, no. However, for your sake I hope I'm wrong.

 

I think you should stick to your guns though and allow him to do as he said he would. The ball is in his court and his actions will speak for themselves at this point. Please update us about what transpires.

[Red Wolverine]

I'll be mocked, but here goes.

 

I love this man very much and he loves me very much. I've enough men who hit on me. I had an active dating life prior to this. I learned a lot from those relationships as far as what I want and need from a life partner. I've learned a lot of that from this R, too.

 

We met. We clicked instantly. We tried (albeit not extremely hard) to stay away from each other. The more we saw each other the more we developed and bonded. I've never been able to be so open and honest and direct with another person. I'm free to express myself, and him himself, and it is good.

 

It's not that he's unsure (anymore). He wanted to look at that R independent of ours and find what had really gone wrong (he's admitted to his faults there) and examine if it could be fixed. A few weeks ago he was struggling with his decision. I understand why. He came to me earlier this week and said he had his moment of decision and resolve. Two days later he left on vacation. He maintains that he is leaving her, and the next time he sees me it will be as a single man.

 

It's clear you've heard from him and he told you what you wanted to hear. As much as he probably means what he's saying, it does come down to what actions he takes. It concerns me that he lets his girlfriend take him to the train station yet now claims it's completely over. I'm afraid you're being managed.

 

Ironically, my affair was the most honest relationship I ever had. We expressed ourselves freely, however he wasn't truly mine. He used to tell me he was mine. I made him stop. Accepting that was accepting less. I deserved more. You deserve more.

 

I told xMM good decisions aren't made, but rather realized. The right path comes to you. It's not always the path you want but it's still the right one. Sometimes that means walking the other way.

 

I really hope I'm wrong about the outcome with your situation. I have never taken pleasure from seeing most of the outcomes here. In fact, it's heartbreaking. What all cheaters of have in common is weakness. A select few find the strength and desire to make decisions and see them through.

 

I hope yours is one of the strong ones but it's not looking that way. Remember your needs and the needs of your children. You've done enough for this man. It's time for him to carry the load. It was always his to carry anyway.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Red Wolverine

[2sunny]

When you first posted with that firm statement - that he was leaving her - I was thinking I wanted to encourage you - as it appeared you might beat the usual odds. I was rooting for you back then because it seemed set with his firm plan to tell her.

 

I'm not one to encourage an OW - or to get her hopes up - but I found myself thinking this was going well for you.

 

But I admit now - it's been a few weeks - and his empty promises have been broken. He even lead you to believe he had told her that scheduled Friday when, in actuality, he hadn't. He even said they talked and cried most of that weekend. What the hell really happened - he was "pretending" he told her?

 

His lies seem to be growing. His promises seem to be getting delayed. His hurt to you seems to be more usual. THAT is not what love looks like!

 

And his truth seems to be harder to determine.

 

I wanted to think this would be "different" than the usual OW situation - but given the way it is playing out - he's just the usual cheating guy. He's full of lies, manipulation and pain to others.

 

He could end the drama IF he would just gain some courage and either end it with her OR you. But he hasn't. I think he believes you won't end it - but I hope you see YOU deserve better than a coward for a man.

 

I think he likes having two women - it's serves his needs. One woman who's been his stability for 15 years and another woman who he can dream with.

 

The reality is - he's a coward who doesn't want to give up both worlds... So he hurts both women while he gets eve thing HE wants.

 

That's the epitome of a selfish and self centered man. You may think he's not - but push comes to shove- HE still has both women doing what serves HIM best.

[WrinkledForehead]

Can you clarify a few things, because not everything makes sense to me:

 

Originally you said that you had not been in a relationship for 3 years before MM. You said this in regards to being proof that you are ok with being alone. Then you said a year before you met up with your MM you went through a very bad breakup.

 

Your original thread you said he was leaving her on Friday because you couldn't tolerate being the OW. Then you changed your mind, and said you were going LC because he said that he didn't necessarily think a future with you was a guarantee. Then you went to being the OW again, and being OK with it... now you are back to saying you are not ok with it, now he has another deadline. What makes you for sure he is sticking to this one?

 

You also said that:

 

 

 

 

and then followed that with this:

 

 

 

So which is it? I guess they were at their peak when he met you?

 

I do think you should take the opportunity to focus on yourself and more importantly, your employment while he is gone. You mentioned your work situation right now, and frankly I am surprised you are getting by financially at all, especially with a couple of kids. I am assuming your part time lab assistant job is not associated with your schooling? You mentioned in another thread that you are still working on your BS; I know undergrads usually do not get paid for lab work, although they do get credits. My SO is in a STEM field that is running over in funds for their students, and even they don't pay their undergrads. It just sounds like you may have more important issues to focus on than worrying about this indecisive man.

 

I was single. I dated. I did go through a bad breakup. It was a confusing breakup for me because the guy went from full steam ahead to nothing. I liked him. The breakup was bad on my end. I was just starting school and a new job, adjusting to massive life changes, and I didnt handle it as well as I'd've handled it as I should have. It wasn't an R, but I was dating.

 

And yes, they were at one of their high points when he met me. He said that was very confusing for him.