Going on vacation with MM tomorrow

[bentleychic]

I've never donated for how it made me feel. I guess you can say it was selfish b/c I do it b/c I feel it's the right thing to do, but also b/c I want my kids to learn from it. Teaching them a life lesson by doing it may be selfish? LOL I don't even know. I guess it could be argued that everything we do could be construed as selfish.

 

I'm going to take time to reflect and decide how keeping food for homeless/stray animals in my car is selfish. Or how working at the rescue and cleaning up dog poo is selfish. I'm sure I can figure out how I'm benefiting by it if I think hard enough.

[KAOJ]

I've never donated for how it made me feel. I guess you can say it was selfish b/c I do it b/c I feel it's the right thing to do, but also b/c I want my kids to learn from it. Teaching them a life lesson by doing it may be selfish? LOL I don't even know. I guess it could be argued that everything we do could be construed as selfish.

 

I'm going to take time to reflect and decide how keeping food for homeless/stray animals in my car is selfish. Or how working at the rescue and cleaning up dog poo is selfish. I'm sure I can figure out how I'm benefiting by it if I think hard enough.

 

Well said, Bentley! Nor do I give for how it makes *me* feel. A homeless man asked if I would buy him a cheeseburger. Not for one second did I think "wow....I will feel good if I buy him lunch!" Nope. He was hungry. I wanted him to have a little bit of relief for a moment and enjoy a meal. (I know I didn't solve all of his problems of his life, but he probably enjoyed that warm meal)

I don't walk dogs at the pound for how it makes *me* feel. I LOVE seeing the excitement in those poor dogs when it is their turn to come out. I LOVE that they can have a little bit of fun and get outside and be dogs. Actually it pains me to do shelter work. I cry everytime one of the dogs I have met is put to sleep.

(Apologies for hijacking but I felt so strongly about the suggestion of why people donate or do nice things that I had to say something)

[bentleychic]

I totally understand. I honestly feel bad for anyone that believes everyone does something with selfish intent. My kids and I fostered and transported 30+ dogs over a six months time frame. Know what we got from it other than bills, back pain and heart ache? The joy of knowing that we saved lives and puppy kisses. Yes, we did it to save lives. Maybe selfish if you choose to spin it that way, but I didn't hear any dogs or new owners complaining! What a rough mind frame to live with. I'd almost be offended if I didn't feel so bad for someone having that frame of mind.

[LilGirlandOW]

I think most people "pay it forward" to feed their soul. Which is like anything from animals to relationships... you don't feed them they die.

 

Possibly the people who do it for selfish reasons are trying to get themselves back to a good and comfortable place in their soul and possibly that may be selfish(?) but constructive because you are working towards being a better human?

 

P.S, C00kie, hope you have a blast on vaca!

[herenow]

I've never donated for how it made me feel. I guess you can say it was selfish b/c I do it b/c I feel it's the right thing to do, but also b/c I want my kids to learn from it. Teaching them a life lesson by doing it may be selfish? LOL I don't even know. I guess it could be argued that everything we do could be construed as selfish.

 

I'm going to take time to reflect and decide how keeping food for homeless/stray animals in my car is selfish. Or how working at the rescue and cleaning up dog poo is selfish. I'm sure I can figure out how I'm benefiting by it if I think hard enough.

 

This is actually a very common concept. Some call it moral masturbation. Some say cause and effect. Some say it's out of guilt that those of us who have more have a desire to give back to those less fortunate. No matter what, when you get that feeling that you have helped a person, animal, situation, etc. it feeds your soul. I wouldn't call it selfish, I would just say it's what you need to do to be the person you are.

 

As far as vacation with a MM, to each their own.

Edited September 19, 2013 by herenow

[bentleychic]

I wouldn't call it selfish, I would just say it's what you need to do to be the person you are.

 

THIS makes sense. I always felt like animals were my "calling". When I was a kid, I wanted to be a veterinarian. I'm not one, but do have an active role with animals in our lives, rescues, etc. and instilling that in my kids is important to me, too

 

I was thinking about this off and on all night. I guess working with the dogs IS cathartic for me in some ways. Especially pulling them from a high kill shelter, fostering and then seeing them go to their forever home. I guess it gives me faith in humanity...maybe even restores a little bit of faith in myself which I'm truly lacking at the moment.

 

That's the best reach I could go to make it selfish. LOL

 

Sorry for getting off track C00kie!

[truthbetold]

THIS makes sense. I always felt like animals were my "calling". When I was a kid, I wanted to be a veterinarian. I'm not one, but do have an active role with animals in our lives, rescues, etc. and instilling that in my kids is important to me, too

 

I was thinking about this off and on all night. I guess working with the dogs IS cathartic for me in some ways. Especially pulling them from a high kill shelter, fostering and then seeing them go to their forever home. I guess it gives me faith in humanity...maybe even restores a little bit of faith in myself which I'm truly lacking at the moment.

 

That's the best reach I could go to make it selfish. LOL

 

Sorry for getting off track C00kie!

 

Bentley, I think that's awesome you do that! We only get rescue dogs. First we had a Siberian husky, and I'm not sure who rescued who with her! She was to be euthanized Christmas Eve she went to a shelter and we got her a couple weeks later, she's since passed. Now we have another rescue, I guess she's a Borador lol. But my point was it's NOT a either or, proposition. What you're doing "should" give the feel good warm fuzzies, but that's not the only reason, nor does it seem to be your primary reason, the primary reason for you seems to be to help out dogs in need.

 

It just seemed the poster that said it's all about being selfish is someone who justifies being selfish in an affair as "well everyone is selfish with what they do so what" type, they are usually very jaded (not to mention very wrong about many people and the kindness of total strangers. There are many, many examples of kind acts. "THAT'S" to me, the true spirit of being part of the human race. I think it's so sad to for someone to have that "everyone is selfish" outlook about others, the world must look like a mostly dismal place to them. I could be totally wrong about her, I can only go by what she posted so...

 

Bentley, you seem really cool, down to earth, but you seem at times, to beat yourself up a bit, you never come across rude. I hope the bit of turmoil you're in right now clears up and shows you your clear path. It's good you're so introspective, that will help you in figuring out your happiness for your future. Just don't stay stuck in the bad feelings, figure out why if there's a disconnect and move on stronger and better! You seem to have a good handle on things. I really do wish you the best.

[C00kie]

9h46 where I live, he's asleep so I managed to give you an update

 

First two days - so far, so good. Things are going smoothly, unlike other times when I would feel extremely anxious, desperate and ask him about everything and we would end up fighting.

 

This time I feel peace. I think I don't expect anything anymore. I feel like I've lost that spark for him. I had no clue until I picked him up at the station and we came home. Or maybe I'm calmer now, and that's just it. However it's a good thing. I feel better. That's all that matters.

 

He's sweet and fun to be around. Hasn't had a real talk to me, like to tell me he's leaving her and when and how that's going to happen. He says he'll be with me though, but hasn't had a proper conversation with me about it. Maybe because he doesn't really intend to do so, or maybe because he knows that touching the issue could be the beggining of a fight and doesn't want to ruin things. I think it's a bit of both, maybe.

 

For now, peace is the word and I'm quite happy about that. I don't feel the urge to go through his things and mobile anymore. I don't feel the urge to make him tell me things anymore. I accept things. I accept that maybe I'll move on without him. It's sad in a way. But it's a relief in other. We're just enjoying the days.

 

I'll keep you posted

Edited September 21, 2013 by C00kie

[C00kie]

Update:

 

We've been together for a week and three days now. Will be together until next thursday.

 

Maybe everything too predictable: I was able to keep my cool for the first days - I hadn't seen him in a while and distance had made me "stronger" and more detached. Less than a week into the holiday, I started to feel the urge to ask him about everything. He never talked about concrete plans on leaving her. He just mentioned, once again as he has before, that he can't leave because of financial issues (he hasn't been making much money recently, while his wife wins great money). They have a 17 year old son. His mother also lives with them, which he says makes it harder or impossible to leave without financial stability. So he says he's studying again (he's a lawyer but business where he lives is not going great) to apply for a public tender to become a judge or other.

 

He's been studying everyday for about two hours, sometimes in the morning, sometimes at night, while I'm asleep or doing something else. Fine by me, I think it's a good thing that he's doing that for himself (maybe - I could be deluded - for us...). But it's not just the money thing. He says he can't leave his son, that his family relies on him for everything and that he wants to wait until he's 18 - that's in a year time. He tells me these things only because I ask him. If I don't, he doesn't mention anything at all, or just vaguely. He used to tell me everything before, but then he failed on the promised timeframe and since then doesn't tell me much anymore, in spite of being there for me (whatever "being there" means when it comes to a MM).

 

Adding to the financial and son issues, I think he also has a lot of fears. Like many MM do. Of being judged by the family, of being alone, of failing when starting something again. Plus, from what I get from his relationship (and I really don't think I'm wrong here) he gets along with his wife. She's pretty much fine with everything as long as he eventually comes home. If they didn't get along or discussed things, they'd probably have ended years ago. But there's no conflict. I'm really not making up excuses for him or her (I don't care what everyone tells me, no normal woman would be ok with her husband leaving for 2 weeks - and he's been with me up to a month, and sometimes 2 or 3 days go by and he doesn't call her), but I feel, and I really do, that she's also a bit of a daughter to him. I never feel that he misses her. I feel and sense his worry and obligation, like you normaly would have with someone you like/love and have known for many years, not more than that.

 

One of these nights I got anxious and asked him how I could be sure that he'd never cheat on me, since he cheats on her. He wasn't happy with the question. He said his actions towards me should speak for themselves and that I was being inconvenient, because that kind of conversation would easily lead to a fight which could spoil our holiday and that we should make the most of our time. I asked when it would be convenient then. Over the phone? We live long distance. I understand that it's an umcomfortable thing for him to talk about, avoiding the issue and expecting me to be fine with everything would be just perfect for him, but I'm not iron woman. I know I tend to be clingy, but I'm not in the wrong here.

 

Then the thoughts of him having sex with her. Even if it doesn't happen much, I'm sure it does. Then I wonder if they take precautions so that she doesn't get pregnant. Bah, these thoughts are sickening...then, when he eventually calls her, leaves for another room, closes the door (argh, that awful feeling...wondering what he's telling her, wondering if there are I love yous and I miss yous)...it's really a kick in the stomach living with this...but I knew it would be like this when I booked this holiday, I know a relationship with a MM couldn't be much different.

 

I feel like nothing's gonna happen. If it does, it will take a long time and it will take something he doesn't really have, I guess: courage. His wife is his wife, but also his little daughter that he cares about. Honestly, I'm not jumpin into conclusions. It is what it is. I've seen her behaviour, the way she calls him to say ridiculous things that a grown up woman would be able to solve and reason, and expects him to do everything. Now, I'm not defending him. I'm just trying to give you a greater perspective of everything, but fully knowing he's weak and also has great flaws.

 

Having said that, I have to say I know he loves me. I know and feel he truly loves me. He may be a coward and a but selfish when it comes to making decisions, but I truly see he gives and he's the best he can be given the circumstances. Of course, that may not be and won't be enough for me. Sometimes I feel really injusticed, cry, go out of my mind and feel he's a sucker; other times I make peace with everything, look at him, who I love so much, and try to make peace with the fact that maybe it's not meant to be.

 

I don't want to vilify him; if or when we part, it should be on good terms. Honestly, I don't feel I'll be better off if I bash him or see him as a son of a ... because, I really do not think he's a bad person. Ok, ok, what kind of person does this, I know, I think about that too, my head spins over this...but still, don't think he's a bad person. He's weak, he can be selfish, and has his flaws that lately I can't seem to forget about. But I don't think he's your typical jerk.

 

When he failed to leave in the promised timeframe, he said it would be better to end it because he didn't have the immediate answers I required. The second after he would change his mind. But he has said these days: I love you deeply. you'll never hear me saying I want to finish. When I say so, I mean that I know this is a calvary for you and it's draining for me as well. This didn't start out the right way and so it's hard to make it right now. Sometimes it's better to start again, the right way, and go from there".

 

Four more days with him...trying to stay calm because getting crazy and outraged and infuriated will be bad for me.

 

Life has great things ahead, and let's expect it brings the best for the both of us. Together...or not.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited September 29, 2013 by C00kie

[Speakingofwhich]

Cookie, this is one of the best synopses I have read on being an OW. You really seem to have allowed your thoughts to flow from your head down through your heart, into your fingertips and on to your keyboard! Or maybe heart to head to fingertips to keyboard! Whichever!

 

Thanks for taking the time to post. I, and probably many others who read this, understand what you are going through. It was sobering for me to read and also very helpful.

 

Honestly, one of the thoughts I had while reading it was, "What a weak, selfish jerk he is not to, at the very least, engage in meaningful conversation you need to have with him about your relationship/timeline!" (I know it may not feel good to read that about him) Weakness and selfishness are faults and we all have faults. But, we all, also, need to work on our faults! He def needs to do some work on his issues!

 

Sending hugs and support your way!

[ComingInHot]

COOkie,

Have you tried talking to him about the "money" thing? If it's try love no amount of income should matter darn it!

I'll bet gobbs of gold coins that you'd be happy to help care for His Mother if it meant the two of you could be together:mad:

I seriously don't mean to be a dark cloud on your Vaca. w/MM , but no matter what he'll be His Son's father and Hs Wife, the mother. That kind of love doesn't change, just grows*

What's he supposed to do?! Wait til His Mother is deceased THEN leave for you? Just so She won't be (might be) disappointed with him being a cheater? It His life to live at this point, not his mothers...

 

Side note: don't you think it's kind of TOTALLY crapy that he is using His Wife's income to support His Mother?! So then what, she passes, he leaves for you essentially sticking His then exWife w/the bill (past financial burden) of His Mother?

Who Does That?

 

And as far as "Q & A" time. I'd think it better done face to face, vacation or not...

 

Anyway COOkie, it may be the weather is beautiful and the romantic nights calling to you and MM, so enjoy this time w/him however brief**

[bentleychic]

It sounds like lots of excuses...er..."reasons" for why he won't leave. I'm sorry C00kie. You sound very strong in your post and I like to see that.

 

NOW while you guys are together is the perfect time to discuss it. Want to know the real reason he's suggesting you don't so you don't "ruin" the vacation? It's b/c you're face to face and he can't get away. He can't avoid the contact. He can't ignore the texts or calls or messages. You're THERE and if you want to ask him questions and truths, there's no way for him to get away from it. I say NOW is the perfect time to ask anything that you need to know.

[C00kie]

COOkie,

Have you tried talking to him about the "money" thing? If it's try love no amount of income should matter darn it!

I'll bet gobbs of gold coins that you'd be happy to help care for His Mother if it meant the two of you could be together:mad:

I seriously don't mean to be a dark cloud on your Vaca. w/MM , but no matter what he'll be His Son's father and Hs Wife, the mother. That kind of love doesn't change, just grows*

What's he supposed to do?! Wait til His Mother is deceased THEN leave for you? Just so She won't be (might be) disappointed with him being a cheater? It His life to live at this point, not his mothers...

 

Side note: don't you think it's kind of TOTALLY crapy that he is using His Wife's income to support His Mother?! So then what, she passes, he leaves for you essentially sticking His then exWife w/the bill (past financial burden) of His Mother?

Who Does That?

 

And as far as "Q & A" time. I'd think it better done face to face, vacation or not...

 

Anyway COOkie, it may be the weather is beautiful and the romantic nights calling to you and MM, so enjoy this time w/him however brief**

 

Surely, I wouldn't mind looking after his mother. I'd happily do so. I don't know if I made myself clear: he's not using his wife's income to support his mother, but without it he wouldn't be able to afford a place of his own and guarantee quality life for his mother and his son (so he says. I guess it's half true, half fear, dunno anymore). But I hear you...

[AlwaysGrowing]

I just read a whole lot of "my life revolves around someone elses decisions, woe is me".

 

Why is this relationship fulfilling, how do you love someone that you don't feel comfortable speaking your mind around.

 

In case you missed it,

 

then he failed on the promised timeframe and since then doesn't tell me much anymore

that I was being inconvenient, because that kind of conversation would easily lead to a fight which could spoil our holiday and that we should make the most of our time.

 

That is what a Conflict Avoidant Personality does, deflect, avoid, put back on you.

[C00kie]

It sounds like lots of excuses...er..."reasons" for why he won't leave. I'm sorry C00kie. You sound very strong in your post and I like to see that.

 

NOW while you guys are together is the perfect time to discuss it. Want to know the real reason he's suggesting you don't so you don't "ruin" the vacation? It's b/c you're face to face and he can't get away. He can't avoid the contact. He can't ignore the texts or calls or messages. You're THERE and if you want to ask him questions and truths, there's no way for him to get away from it. I say NOW is the perfect time to ask anything that you need to know.

 

Things are tense because I've been questioning him. Just did that a while ago. I asked WHEN and HOW we will be together. I shouldn't have to ask. He said "in a year. when my son is 18". I asked what about the finances. He said he'd sort it out by then. And then said didn't want to talk about that anymore.

 

Excuses, right? It's crystal clear... what am I gonna do this next year?? That's IF things ever were to work out...another year of agony? I guess I know what I have to do...

[ComingInHot]

COOkie,

I KNEW it! I could tell you would have no problem supporting his mother because You really do love Mm and are a person of compassion.

 

I kind of don't get the story about his son though... The young man has what, One more year of High school and by most states is already considered an Adult. What kind of "lifestyle" is MM talking about?

Anyway, I think you should do what You need to do w/some of this vacation time as well. It's nt all about MM ya know (although He thins it is obviously).

[bentleychic]

COOkie,

I KNEW it! I could tell you would have no problem supporting his mother because You really do love Mm and are a person of compassion.

 

I kind of don't get the story about his son though... The young man has what, One more year of High school and by most states is already considered an Adult. What kind of "lifestyle" is MM talking about?

Anyway, I think you should do what You need to do w/some of this vacation time as well. It's nt all about MM ya know (although He thins it is obviously).

The 18yr old thing doesn't fly w/ me either b/c my mother left my father suddenly for an A when I was 18 and newly married. It still threw our entire family for a loop and all of us kids were legal adults. (Part of it is b/c my dad is truly the greatest man anyone could ever imagine. I've never heard an ill word about him. No one saw it coming. The other part is due to WHO she had an A with.)

 

I'd keep asking him questions as many as you want unless you feel there's really no use. It sounds like he may be at the point that he'll be just frustrated enough to give you future faking to shush you up and I'd hate that for you.

[yellowmaverick]

Just out of curiosity, who is paying for the vacation (since you say he doesn't earn that much) - you or his wife?

[ComingInHot]

COOkie wrote, " clear: he's not using his wife's income to support his mother, but without it..."

COOkie, W/Out What? His Wife's Income??

 

 

"... he wouldn't be able to afford a place of his own and guarantee quality life for his mother and his son"

 

COOkie, so w/out His Wife's income he couldn't do/offer the above BUT you say he's Not using Her income??

 

Either, you aren't sure OR this MM is a MASTER lar & manipulator to have spun things in a way that you "bought" his line/s.

 

See?!!? Now I concerned for you! You are SO cool and W/the above you wrote, I am beginning to think MM is more of the douche kind...

 

Do you think he spins sh*t the same way to his Wife? Oh God I hope not!!

[crederer]

I've given up on trying to understand their dynamics. He often leaves for some time, up to a month. Tells her he needs some time off I guess. And sometimes when he's with me DAYS go by and he won't call her at all, or send e-mails. Not normal at all, no matter the excuse he gives her.

 

I can guarentee you this is not how it goes at all.

 

I'm assuming he's in a business where regular travelling is required and that's what he tells her.

[whichwayisup]

Surely, I wouldn't mind looking after his mother. I'd happily do so. I don't know if I made myself clear: he's not using his wife's income to support his mother, but without it he wouldn't be able to afford a place of his own and guarantee quality life for his mother and his son (so he says. I guess it's half true, half fear, dunno anymore). But I hear you...

 

Sorry but no way will his mom allow you to step into her life and look after her if he and his wife actually do divorce. I won't go into the obvious reasons, but you know them. To even consider that a possibility is setting yourself up for a huge fall C.

 

You only know his financial side of stuff he tells you. Do you have proof that their accounts are separate? Most married folks have joint accounts. Please stop believing every single word he tells you.

[whichwayisup]

He's been studying everyday for about two hours, sometimes in the morning, sometimes at night, while I'm asleep or doing something else. Fine by me, I think it's a good thing that he's doing that for himself (maybe - I could be deluded - for us...). But it's not just the money thing. He says he can't leave his son, that his family relies on him for everything and that he wants to wait until he's 18 - that's in a year time. He tells me these things only because I ask him. If I don't, he doesn't mention anything at all, or just vaguely. He used to tell me everything before, but then he failed on the promised timeframe and since then doesn't tell me much anymore, in spite of being there for me (whatever "being there" means when it comes to a MM).

 

To me, this is a man who doesn't want to leave his wife, his son, his family life as he knows it and start over. He is content as things are and he is content having an affair with you. I believe he does care and love you but it's all in an affair setting, and likes things as they are.

 

Adding to the financial and son issues, I think he also has a lot of fears. Like many MM do. Of being judged by the family, of being alone, of failing when starting something again. Plus, from what I get from his relationship (and I really don't think I'm wrong here) he gets along with his wife. She's pretty much fine with everything as long as he eventually comes home. If they didn't get along or discussed things, they'd probably have ended years ago. But there's no conflict. I'm really not making up excuses for him or her (I don't care what everyone tells me, no normal woman would be ok with her husband leaving for 2 weeks - and he's been with me up to a month, and sometimes 2 or 3 days go by and he doesn't call her), but I feel, and I really do, that she's also a bit of a daughter to him. I never feel that he misses her. I feel and sense his worry and obligation, like you normaly would have with someone you like/love and have known for many years, not more than that.

 

Those aren't excuses, that's reality. Reasons as to why he isn't leaving. He and his wife are content with how things are. Maybe she turns her back on what's in front of her nose, maybe she doesn't care as long as he doesn't talk about it. Maybe she has someone secretly on the side as well. Who knows, but whatever it is, the glue that holds them together is still strong and it works for them.

 

Interesting take on that. Yet you know they still have sex and say the i love you's, sleep in the same bed. He does have obligations, that's part of marriage and having children, having responsibilities. It's not a bad thing, it's life!

 

I have to say, I don't like that he gives you hope. His actions show you the opposite of what he tells you. His actions show you it's an affair and you want more and are planning a future life with him, thinking ahead. I mean, thoughts of looking after his elderly mom is sweet but do you truly believe she will accept you as her new daughter in law and allow you to help be a care giver? And, what about his son, and his (ex) wife? She will always be in your lives on some level, especially if she and her MIL are close, it's not like so many years of bonding and being in laws will cut their cord.

 

Just think ahead with a bit more objective mind. Take a step back and really think things through. Fantasy/desire/wishes and hopes vs real life, reality and the stuff you two will be facing IF he does divorce. Along with his job and future changes in career as well.

[C00kie]

Thank you for all your answers...I wanted to comment on each one but I don't have much time since he's around.

 

I want to ask one thing though - four days left with him. What do I do? I don't want to make our last days a nightmare for us. Asking him about this and that again for the 100 time will do no good and everything will be tense and heavy. I can't also pretend I'm happy as I'm struggling inside.

 

Any advice on how to spend these last days? :/

[bentleychic]

I'd ask what you need to ask but, honestly, if you're sure that you're done with him, I'd probably go off and do stuff alone and enjoy MY vacation time without the relationship dynamic being a factor in it. Good luck!

[Goodbye]

I can guarentee you this is not how it goes at all.

 

I'm assuming he's in a business where regular travelling is required and that's what he tells her.

 

 

Yeah, my exMM had business all over the country. I realize he'd just pass off our time as business travel.