"Making amends" but still divorcing

[reservoirdog1]

A year after separation, which followed 2 months of attempted reconciliation following TBXW's revelations of multiple affairs and deception throughout the marriage, I've reached a point where I don't want anything to do with her (beyond what's necessary to co-parent the kids).

 

She phoned me this morning. She took issue with some posts I've made on another board (I figured she was reading them, and I was right) and talks about how she wants to make amends, even though the marriage is over. Her amends basically take the form of being friendly, and occasionally offering me money because she has a higher income than I do at the moment.

 

I told her this morning that I don't want anything from her. I don't really want to talk to her or see her when I don't have to. Her apologies (of which there have been many in the last year, nestled among numerous comments from her on my perceived shortcomings) have reached a point of "diminishing marginal utility", i.e. each one means less and less to me. The one I got a few weeks ago did nothing for me.

 

I don't want her friendship, and I certainly don't want her money. When she offers me those, I feel like she's throwing me scraps from a table -- what I wanted from her was an honest marriage, where she'd come to me first with her doubts and issues before running off to somebody else. But she told me months ago that she didn't want the marriage anymore, and I've accepted that. I don't want it anymore either, and haven't wanted it since around February.

 

I feel as though it's too late for anything from her to make a difference, and I told her so. I told her that I'm now emotionally empty towards her, that my once positive feelings for her have been slain, and that I don't have anything left to give. She says she's going to keep trying.

 

This is long, I realize. But can anybody who's been through a divorce after betrayal offer some insight? How can a cheating ex-spouse "make amends"? Is that even possible if they don't want to reconcile? Am I being unreasonable in not accepting what she's offering? Am I being unreasonable for not wanting to have anything to do with her?

 

Thanks guys...

[Merin]

I don't think you're being unreasonable..

 

There really isn't anything that is going to make what she did "okay" and to offer money for the emotional damage she caused is insulting at best.

 

Be proud of yourself for having dignity and class.. for being able to co~parent without drama.. Yay! You're on your way to recovery!

 

You will eventually get to a place of indifference towards her.. when what she did no longer really matters in your life or well being.. this takes time.. and you may still have feelings of anger towards her at moments.

 

Stand up for yourself, and maintain your self respect.

 

Best wishes

[meanon]

Whilst everyone reacts differently to some extent, there are norms in terms of the emotional stages of divorce. Most move beyond the stage you are at (Acceptance) to New Beginnings which I've seen described as "moving beyond the blame and anger to forgiveness, new respect and new roles." If this does happen it usually occurs sometime between completing the legal process and four years after this.

 

It may well be that you will never be friends but there could be an improvement in the relationship, given that you will remain in contact through co-parenting. Don't force it (tell her not to as well), these things take time and if it's going to happen it will do so naturally.

[tokyo]

I´m not sure, if I recall it correctly I remember you telling that she repeatedly over many years cheated on you. I´d be polite, but I wouldn´t give a **** for her friendship probably. What kind of sweet small talk does she expect???? Considering what she did you seemed to have reacted quite cool as far as now

[SoleMate]

Well, I don't meet your criteria for responders, but I'll try my best anyhow:

 

How can a cheating ex-spouse "make amends"?

That would really be for the BS to define. Usually "making amends" mean that somehow the damage is made at least partly whole. So it is for the BS to define the damage, and whether parts of it can even partially be made whole. For instance, if your TBXW caused you financial harm, e.g. through large cash gifts to her OM, then amends might consist of reimbursement. If she told lies that damaged your reputation, then amends would consist of her telling the truth to everyone who heard the lie. The reality of your broken marriage cannot be altered or amended.

 

Is that even possible if they don't want to reconcile?

Sure. I can easily imagine where both parties reach a state of putting the past behind them and realizing that the hurt is not a daily presence. And that whatever part of the harm that is reasonably fixable has been fixed.

 

Am I being unreasonable in not accepting what she's offering?

It is totally your choice as to whether to accept or not. I definitely feel that cash payments, unless in specific agreed amounts to amend a specific financial harm, are insulting and offensive.

 

Am I being unreasonable for not wanting to have anything to do with her?

To parent with her is your moral obligation. Anything beyond that is your choice. If you feel that she is just being/acting friendly and slipping you a few bucks to relieve her guilt, and it is not providing concrete relief to you, then I think that a polite and dignified refusal by you is in order.

 

BOTTOM LINE: To the extent that amends are possible, it is for you, the BS, to define what form they will take.

[Matilda]

My situation was a little different in that my husband didn't cheat (that I know of anyway), but he was abusive, so in that way he did betray me. We have a child together, so we still maintain a relationship. Our divorce was 12 years ago.

 

I don't think there is any way my ex could've made "amends", and I really don't think there was really any reason for him to. There is no way to undo the damage he did to our personal relationship. And once we seperated, I had absolutely no interest in having a personal relationship with him, so what would be the point of trying to undo it.

 

At some point, I would say it was 3 or 4 years after we divorced, after having been through counseling, I finally accepted the situation. I accepted that he is the person he is, and that no matter how angry I got, or how "right" I was, that was not going to change anything. You can't change the past, and you can't change anybody else.

 

I still have negative feelings toward him, but I'm not angry at him anymore for what he did to me. I do have positive feelings toward him for being a fairly good father to our child. And he and I actually work well together in parenting our daughter. Also, he has improved himself, he seems to be a much better person than he was when we were married. We actually have some long conversations about non-daughter topics at times, and he does seem to have made some progress personally. I'm glad that he has for my daughter's sake, and for his family's sake, but it's definitely not important to me personally.

 

As far as her apologies go, I would listen politely and then go on with my life. You don't owe her anything at this point. I'm assuming that the 2 of you have children together so you do have to maintain a decent relationship. I would not take money from her, unless it's part of child support, because I would not want to feel any sort of obligation to her. And I don't think money is going to take away any of the damage she has done to you. The only one who can fix that damage is you.

[Scott S]

In order for amends to really be meaningful, they need to be timely made. As time goes on, people move in the directions their lives have taken, & they change. They are no longer the same person that they wrer married to.

 

A good analogy is finding someone in cardiac arrest. Begin CPR promptly & the patient has some chance of survival. Wait a few days, however...

 

I certainly can forgive my ex (& I certainly must, for my own mental health, if nothing else), but a reconciliation is quite impossible. Twelve years have passed, I've relocated & remarried. I have traveled far along that direction that my life took, the place she once had in my life no longer exists.

 

I am forutnate that there were no children involved, so the break was relatively clean (The operative word being relatively!).

 

You are being quite reasonable, I believe. At some point in her life, she must learn that there are consequences to one's actions, & that adults must take responsibility for them.

[reservoirdog1]

Since I first posted on this, we've had a couple more discussions on this topic, specifically her wanting the post-marital relationship to be more of a "friends" type of thing. One such discussion was this morning. Believe me, I don't initiate them. And given that we have two kids, I'm hesitant to simply tell her to f*ck off every time it comes up because I know that, whatever else happens, the woman is in my life probably until I die. We're going to have to interact whether I like it or not.

 

The argument always arises as to what those interactions should look like. I'm going to try to explain this as factually as possible, without colouring it. She wants me to be her friend, to see all the positive changes she's supposedly made to herself, how she's become an honest and loyal person, and she'd be happy if we could go for coffee occasionally just to shoot the breeze, and take the kids for dinner together sometimes. The reason she wants to do all of these things is that she's extremely sorry and remorseful for the s***ty way she conducted herself and the disrespect she showed me throughout the marriage, and wants to find a way to make amends... a way that DOESN'T involve rebuilding the marriage, because that's over in all but law.

 

My response today was as reasonable as I could manage, difficult and sad though the conversation was. I told her that I can't be friends with her, or speak to or spend more time with her than necessary for now. The reason is, I don't associate her with good things... just with deception, massive betrayal throughout the marriage, pain and loss. Her new supposed changes to herself are painful to hear about, because they simply remind me that I got treated like s*** and her BF gets treated like gold. Right now, the less I have to see her, the happier I am.

 

Before I can contemplate being friends with her, I feel like I have to put some serious time between the present and that crappy past, because right now it still looms large. I need to do some further work on rebuilding my life and my post-marital identity. Hell, I may even need to find a new relationship in order for that to happen. (It doesn't help things that she's been in a relationship almost since we split, but hey... she started "looking" for her next one several years before I did.)

 

I don't disagree with her; it would be better if we were friends than if we were enemies or people who scrap all the time. I agree with her, I don't want to be fighting over the standard of interaction in twenty years' time. But right now, I'm a year and a half out, still not quite divorced, and the wounds are not healed. She said that maybe we need to "start building some new, positive memories" to replace the s***ty old ones. Which sounds good in theory, but hell to put into practice. And aren't I better suited by putting my OWN happiness first right now, rather than moving mountains to make her happy?

 

I've wondered at times if I'm just doing this to punish her, but I don't think that's it. I have great difficulty being in her presence. She mentioned that maybe I need to "force myself" to be friends. My response was that I'm no more capable of forcing myself to do that than she was to force herself to stay and work on rebuilding the marriage in the two months after I learned the truth.

 

This is long and rambling, I know. Not really sure what response I'm looking for, but any thoughts would be welcome.

 

Thanks everybody...

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by reservoirdog1

Right now, the less I have to see her, the happier I am.

 

Then right now, time and distance is your friend. You've been through enough. She has no right to ask you to give up the marginal peace that you've been able to make with the whole situation.

 

Once again, she is being selfish and seeing to her own needs. If your interactions in the presence of your children are currently civil, then it's not really about your children is it? If your children are getting what they need, then whose needs are you being asked to address?

 

The "lets be friends" routine is about alleviating guilt. Using the kids is just a motivator to get you to be compliant. It's applying guilt to you in an effort to ease her own. Not fair.

 

And aren't I better suited by putting my OWN happiness first right now, rather than moving mountains to make her happy?

 

You betcha! A happy YOU is going to make for an even better Dad.

 

And don't let her fool you, you're already a good enough father. You're attentive to your children's needs, and you put them first always. She's being a stone cold b*tch to ask for more. You can tell her I said so too!

 

My two cents.

[CurlyIam]

She's doing this to you only so that she can feel better about herself. She's been a b!tch, she knows it and hopes that if she proves to you that she's a good person, that would make her feel better about herself.

 

She's merely trying to be at ease with her conscience and she doesn't have the decency to NOT use you for it.

 

Have a civil relationship and deny her the redemption she's looking for. She has to deal with it alone. Remorses never killed anyone.

[sweetadeline]

What CurlyIam said.

 

It is utterly self-centered of her to demand friendship of you after having repeatedly betrayed you. She can express remorse, she can reveal her hope that you will eventually be willing to forgive her, she can even say that she would like to become your friend eventually, but she cannot expect your attitude toward her to develop according to her timetable. No human being can demand friendship of another under any circumstances, and especially not under these.

 

In my opinion, you owe her the cordiality required for responsible co-parenting, but no more.

[johan]

I thought she was living with some old guy. Did that not work out, or is she trying to find time for you as well?

[reservoirdog1]

I thought she was living with some old guy. Did that not work out, or is she trying to find time for you as well?

No, she doesn't live with the old guy. Not yet, anyway. They've been dating (or whatever) for over a year. He started working on her during the two months we were nominally working on rebuilding things, though supposedly nothing happened physically between them until we had split. Don't know if that's true or not but it's my understanding.

 

Her whole thing for over a year has been that she's happy with him but feels shame for the fact that she trashed her marriage to me so badly. Hence the attempt to be friends, which almost invariably comes down to her saying "it's not healthy for the kids to be raised in an environment where their father clearly hates their mother." I've never spoken ill of her to the kids, and will not do so. Guess she thinks they pick up vibes from me or something (I'm civil to her, but nothing more).

 

The whole thing really just seems as though I'm being f*cked in the *ss and expected to smile about it while it's happening. Sorry for the graphic analogy but that's the way it feels.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by reservoirdog1

Hence the attempt to be friends, which almost invariably comes down to her saying "it's not healthy for the kids to be raised in an environment where their father clearly hates their mother." I've never spoken ill of her to the kids, and will not do so. Guess she thinks they pick up vibes from me or something (I'm civil to her, but nothing more).

 

You know, it seems somewhat common these days that the person who initiates divorce has this fantasy in their head about what the familial relationships will be like afterwards. That fantasy doesn't die easily.

 

And it's not only the 'one-big-happy-family-along-with-Mom's-boyfriends' vision that she wants. The realization of the fantasy allows her to continue to perpetuate her own sense of self-importance in your life. It gives her an in-road to influencing your decisions. It allows her to be an integral and controlling factor in YOUR future. Frankly, it a way for her to be up your butt for the rest of your natural life.

 

But that doesn't have to be YOUR problem. It's not your fantasy....it's hers. You are at no obligation to participate, because.... It's not really about the kids.

 

Civility is plenty good for co-parenting. There are ALOT of folks who can't manage that much, so you are to be commended for your efforts.

 

It's only in her mind that the facade of friendship is the right thing. Your kids are going to grow up one day, and when they do they'll have an adult understanding of what happened...even if you choose to never share the details.

 

Why put out a fake persona for them? Kids deserve the truth. They'll see you dealing with adversity, and meeting emotional challenges. They'll see you doing it in an honest way, rather than setting forth these 'plastic' guidelines on emotional behavior that they, themselves, will never be able to live up to....because the parameters were actually a facade.

 

You'll be friends if and when YOU want to be. She doesn't get to decide that. Hell, she already decided everything else for EVERYBODY. The beauty of divorce is that your ex doesn't get to do that anymore. You are no longer at any personal obligation to her.

 

And you're right.....you WILL start feeling completely better when you meet someone new. Just keep in mind that the new woman in your life someday, won't want your ex-wife up her butt either.

 

Don't let her lay out that guilt trip on you. When she has opportunity to bring up subjects like this....it just means you're giving her too much access to talk to you.

[CurlyIam]

Well, your wife is right about the kids. They have indeed the right to be upset. And not because their dad hates the guts of their mom, but because the "mom" trashed the whole concept of family, that including parenting too. She could have had a civil break up and than run around with half her city. She didn't.

 

Just don't give in to it for one second. You don't even owe her to be civil with her. And that's the truth. The kids have a mind of their own. When she chose to have an affair, even an emotional one, she has not only cheated to you, but to all her home. Kids included. I don't know the age of your kids, but if she cared about there wellfare so much she should have thought about the situation she created BEFORE running around with another man.

 

Jest tell her to cut the crap, 'cause you ain't buying any. I remember your posts a few months ago... and then your posts half an year ago. You were a wreck, an emotional wreck... I am so sorry this is happening to such a good man. If ever you don't know what to reply to her, think of the whole misery she created! I think you'll get the "No, thanks" to whatever she may be offering PRONTO.

 

 

 

I cannot believe she'd be so slimmy and actually offer you money. Dignity isn't for sale. Not is having a conscience. Some have it, some don't. Jeeez, some people.....

[brashgal]

I've been in a social situation as a 'family' with the ex only 3 times in the last 2 years. Two of those times had to do with big-deal events for the kids where both of us needed to be present. They were okay - even enjoyable, primarily because the focus was on the kids.

 

The other event was a breakfast together. I won't do that again unless I am forced kicking and screaming. Too awkward - we're no longer a family and I don't want to pretend to be one, especially since he now lives with OW#2 so in effect has another family. Even the kids felt weird.

 

I say stick to your guns and don't feel bad about not wanting to engage in 'family' activities. Unless it is some sort of recognition event for your child like an award through school or a club, there aren't any big reasons why you all have to be together. Your kids' concept of family is just going to change - there is time with Daddy and time with Mommy.