Jesus Christ, God = Same Person?

[DayumQuitPlayin]

I have a question about this:

 

Jesus is God's son. Jesus is also the Lord. You pray in His name to God. Jesus died for our Sins. Jesus was tempted by the Devil and prayed to God.

 

I'm a little confused tho.. I'm only looking for answers or for someone to help me understand this, but how can Jesus pray to God.. if He's God himself?

 

If I'm wrong with anything I've said.. please let me know, I'm only stating what I've read, or what others had told me.

[dyermaker]

You're talking about the Holy Trinity, the belief that the holy spirit, jesus christ, and the traditional understanding of 'God' (as the father) are all three persons in one God.

 

The best I can explain it is, think of dihydrogen oxide. At room temperature, it's water. When frozen, it's ice. When heated, it condenses into steam. It's always the same, but it comes in different forms.

 

Jesus was the human manifestation of the God that is always with us. He was 100% divine, and 100% human. Think of him like ice water?

[missopinionated]

Jesus was a man. He had parents like you and I have. He was also a visionary and a rebel. His philosophies were very different from those that existed at the time and he was not popular with the political structure, although he was with reformists.

 

There are several different schools of though on who this person was. Christians believe he was the son of god. Others believe he said he was A son of god, meaning a follower. Still others believe he was an eloquent and compasionate speaker who managed to create quite a following but was not divine.

 

There are those who believe, and who say they have evidence, that Jesus did not die one the cross, but that he actually walked out of the crypt he was put into, and that he lived quite a long life, ultimately dying in France when he was about 70 years old. Many believe there are direct decendants, resulting from Jesus's marriage to Mary Magdalene (who sits at his right hand in DaVinci's "Last Supper"). There are certainly other less direct decendants, as it is clear from Christian texts that Christ had brothers and sisters.

 

As to his divinity, that is a matter of opinion and faith. The gospels were all written some time after Christ supposedly died on the cross, Mathew having been written some 60 years after this death. If you believe that Christ actually died on the cross, then the gospels were written from a verbal history.

 

If, however, you believe that he died in France, there is some possibility that those gospels actually quote him: that is unlikely, though.

 

While you're learning this faith, be sure to understand how this faith evolved.

[dyermaker]

1. There was no France. Germanic peoples (known as 'Franks') began to establish what would now be called France in the 5th century, after the fall of Western Rome.

 

2. The Mary Magdelene connection is nothing more than romanticized fiction, there is no evidence. Mary Magdelene wrote a Gospel, and in it she made no mention of marrying Jesus, which would have been a pretty significant part of Christ's story, if she were telling it.

 

3. Non-Christian historical sources confirm the crucifixion.

 

4. It is not "clear from Christian texts that Christ had brothers and sisters."--In Jesus' culture, as well as many middle-eastern cultures even to this day, the word brother/sister does not mean neccesarily 'of the same mother and father'. It's both possible and irrelevant, but it is by no means 'clear'.

[tiki]

Great question! I, too, struggled with this. Our preacher gave an explanation similar to what dyer gave.

 

But He is the son of God. You've got the trinity...the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

I admire your openness to question things.

[torkworld]

I see it slightly differently

 

I think that the three are one IN PURPOSE, but aren't the same.

 

Why would Jesus pray to himself?

 

The best I can explain it is, think of dihydrogen oxide. At room temperature, it's water. When frozen, it's ice. When heated, it condenses into steam. It's always the same, but it comes in different forms.

 

When's the last time you saw water, ice, and steam at the same time?

 

Trinity or no trinity, I'm still baffled at how so many people put their emphasis on Jesus when he's 2nd in command, or if you believe in the Trinity, the human form. In either case, isn't the Father just a tad more important than the Son?

[Moose]

Trinity or no trinity, I'm still baffled at how so many people put their emphasis on Jesus when he's 2nd in command, or if you believe in the Trinity, the human form. In either case, isn't the Father just a tad more important than the Son?

 

The reason the emphasis is mainly on Jesus most of the time is because he was made our intercessor to provide man with the only way back to God. It's as if you took out a loan, or lease on life. Jesus paid that debt so we'd be able to enter into His kingdom.

[tiki]

Because everything has to go through Jesus to get to God.

[bluetuesday]

i like the water/ice/steam analogy but if it's too difficult to think of those three states co-existing at the same time, try this.

 

god is the mind of god, jesus is the body of god, the holy spirit is the soul of god.

 

each are part of the same entity, they co-exist but operate differently.

 

as a christian i believe that jesus the man was the physical manifestation of god, but while being fully god he was not the entire god.

 

in the same way your body seeks the assistance of your mind in order to consciously function, so jesus sought the assistance of his divine mind. i believe this is what is being referred to when we are told that jesus prayed to god, his father.

 

i think it should also be borne in mind that jesus was living his life as an example of perfection. his praying, his seeking the mind of god, was not only necessary to his earthly life, it was a lesson for all humanity in how to live.

 

even if, strictly speaking, prayer for jesus was redundant (say if, for example, he knew all the answers and received all the support and guidance and spiritual sustenance automatically), he would still have prayed publicly so we could know how much we need to pray.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by torkworld

I see it slightly differently

 

I think that the three are one IN PURPOSE, but aren't the same.

 

Why would Jesus pray to himself?

He wasn't praying to himself. He was setting an example for people to follow him--people asked him--how do we pray? And so he taught us the Lord's Prayer.

 

Jesus was baptized. He definitely did not NEED baptism, he was free of sin, and 100% divine. He did it to set an example for the community that would come about as a result of his ministry.

When's the last time you saw water, ice, and steam at the same time?

My point was, that no matter how it's perceived, it's all the same chemical. No matter whether God is working through direct intercession, his son's ministry, or the inspiration within his children (the holy spirit), he's still one God.

 

To answer your question, if it was literal, Ice Water in Moscow would do the trick.

Trinity or no trinity, I'm still baffled at how so many people put their emphasis on Jesus when he's 2nd in command, or if you believe in the Trinity, the human form. In either case, isn't the Father just a tad more important than the Son?

No, believers in the trinity do not rank them by 'importance'.

 

Many people find Jesus easier to relate to because he's a sign of God's sacrifice for us. It's easier to put a human face on God if you imagine Jesus. Even if Western art has inaccurately depicted him as a blue-eyed, long-haired, hippy looking fellow.

[DayumQuitPlayin]

Dyer, Blue..

 

Thank you for those analogies.. they really helped me understand.

 

Thank you all too for your input

[dyermaker]

I hope you're comfortable asking any questions you may have.

 

People, in my opinion, get way too bogged down in specifics.

 

Accepting Jesus isn't how you become a Christian. They will know we are Christians by our love.

[packersgirl]

Jesus was fully man, and fully God. I also use the water/ice/steam method of explaining the trinity when explaining it to people. It is a hard concept to grasp. I've been a Christian since I was 6 and had a difficult understanding of it for a long long time. It blew my mind how Jesus was God, and God was God, and the Holy Spirit was God. Its just a reality that you accept when believing in God.

[torkworld]

He wasn't praying to himself. He was setting an example for people to follow him--people asked him--how do we pray? And so he taught us the Lord's Prayer.

 

Yep I agree he taught us how to pray with the Lord's Prayer.

 

But I think he was really praying to his Father in the others, and they did set an example for us, but that wasn't its only purpose.

 

I see where you guys are coming from but

 

1. Why would Satan offer GOD HIMSELF all the kingdoms of the world? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

2. How would one explain why Jesus REBUKED everyone who tried to worship him, telling them to give the worship to his father. If they're the same, it wouldn't matter would it?

 

3. Jesus himself said he didn't come to do his own will, but the will of his father who sent him. If they're the same, I have a hard time thinking that would matter either.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by torkworld

1. Why would Satan offer GOD HIMSELF all the kingdoms of the world? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

1. It's a story.

 

2. He is not *just* divine, but also fully human. It's the inclusion of pure divinity, not the exclusion of humanity, that characterizes the mystery of Christ.

2. How would one explain why Jesus REBUKED everyone who tried to worship him, telling them to give the worship to his father. If they're the same, it wouldn't matter would it?

Can you be more specific--like, what specifically are you referring to?

3. Jesus himself said he didn't come to do his own will, but the will of his father who sent him. If they're the same, I have a hard time thinking that would matter either.

I think that's the entire point. He wasn't just a man, but a manifestation of God.

[chicklover]

I have problem with this God-Christ unity. I absolulately can't imagine God is Christ or vicevesa. God is infinity. What is put in human form is not infinity. No matter it's Jesus or you or me. Very simple.

 

If you say it's a manifastation of God. I agree if you mean his link to God is very pure and he does do nothing except God's will. But this is what other religions say about their prophet. In this regard, Jesus is a prophet of God like Moses, Mohammad and other prophets.

 

But still he remains a CREATURE of god and therefore limited.

 

That "Christ is the son of god" , is a metaphor. What does "son" mean?

Everybody can define it in a different way. so it doesn't carry any information.

I can say , you and me are also son of god.

 

Don't stick to a metaphor.

 

Everything in universe from a piece of stone to Jesus ( and all other prophets) - by no means - should be set equal to god. and i am suprised how some people dare to do that??

[packersgirl]

If you say it's a manifastation of God. I agree if you mean his link to God is very pure and he does do nothing except God's will. But this is what other religions say about their prophet. In this regard, Jesus is a prophet of God like Moses, Mohammad and other prophets.

 

Jesus is not like Moses. Moses was born of man, born by two people mating and creating a life. Jesus was born of a virgin, he was concieved by Mary and the Holy Spirit... who is also a part of the trinity, making him God. So, he was fully man, yet fully God.

 

But still he remains a CREATURE of god and therefore limited.

 

Jesus, being God himself, was NOT limited. He lived the perfect life, but if you read the story of his life, you'll see that Satan tempted him and others asked of him questions of why he didn't do just anything, his reply was that we shall not test God.

 

That "Christ is the son of god" , is a metaphor. What does "son" mean?

Everybody can define it in a different way. so it doesn't carry any information.

I can say , you and me are also son of god.

 

It isn't a metaphor, its reality. Again, like I said earlier, Jesus was concieved by Mary and the Holy Spirit. He is in fact the Son of God. We, as humans, are sons of man, concieved by a man and woman. We were born into impurity. We can be considered sons and daughters of God if we accept Jesus as our Savior. Since God can't come in contact with anything impure, the only way we can be a son or daughter of God is if we accept the gift of the cross... where Christ died so that we may believe and be given that title.

 

Everything in universe from a piece of stone to Jesus ( and all other prophets) - by no means - should be set equal to god. and i am suprised how some people dare to do that??

 

Jesus was God, he is equal to him. The prophets are by no means equal to God.. they are as human as you and I. Satan was tossed out of heaven because in his mind he thought he was equal to God, and he tried to be God. I do agree with one thing though, why people would even dare to compare themselves or anyone to God is beyond me.

[chicklover]

Jesus is not like Moses. Moses was born of man, born by two people mating and creating a life. Jesus was born of a virgin, he was concieved by Mary and the Holy Spirit... who is also a part of the trinity, making him God. So, he was fully man, yet fully God.

 

You must be kidding , right? "Jesus is born of a virgin" doesn't make him god. Consider it as the infinite power of God who can let somebody be concieved from a virgin. Do you think God is not able to do this kind of things?

 

Besides, Holy spirit being God, is part of the argument. You can't say since Jesus is born from one of trinity, he is god. Because i think the holy spirit himself is not God either. You just changed the form of the question.

 

Jesus, being God himself, was NOT limited. He lived the perfect life, but if you read the story of his life, you'll see that Satan tempted him and others asked of him questions of why he didn't do just anything, his reply was that we shall not test God.

 

You see, Bible is your point of reference. If it's been written in somewhere dat Jesus said:" We shall not test God" , and by that, he meant that he was god. The only thing you have to do is to say: " since Jesus doesn't lie, he must be god".

 

The point is that Bible is not my point of reference. I am not sure Jesus said that. Even worse, I think the idea of Jesus being equal to God would be strongly disapproaved by Jesus himself , if he was alive in the present time.

 

Let me rephrase it:

 

Jesus could have led a pure life on earth. Jesus could have been concieved by the Holy spirit and the Virgin. Jesus was a very good human being. Jesus came to be the savior of his follower, .......

 

All of these - by no means - indicates that Jesus is God.

 

Jesus was God, he is equal to him. The prophets are by no means equal to God

 

This time, you definitely must be kidding! Nothing is equal to God. The most we can say is "What Jesus says is equal to what God says, What he does is 100% approved by God because he acts according to God's wil". But you can't make Jesus equal to God.

As I said, God is infinity and He is in any ascept infinity. He is not limited to time/space. His knowledge is infintiy. his power is infintiy. By no means (even if somebody is concieved by the holy spirit and a virgin (actually you are implying the he is a creature)) a creature is equal to Him.

[dyermaker]

It is difficult for us to explain, and hard for you to believe it.

 

That does not, in any way, discredit the belief. It's called a mystery for a reason. He was both man and God.

[packersgirl]

Well chiklover, I was not kidding about a thing I said. I would give you biblical references to back it all up, but since it seems you don't believe in the accuracy of the Bible, that would be pointless. You can believe what you want, God did give us free will. As Dyer said, its as hard for us to explain as it is for you to believe... but once you do believe, and have that faith that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all actually one in the same, you begin to slowly understand.

[chicklover]

Now we are to this point, I should stop reasoning because there is SOMETHING which is beyond my perception.

 

Recently I am studying Boedism. I know Islam pretty good as well.

 

Believe me if I say the attitude you have towards Jesus is exactly the same as what Boedists think about Boeda and what Moslims think about Mohammad.

 

Everybody thinks his leader is perfect. Why not saying all of them are equally perfect?

[dyermaker]

Recently I am studying Boedism. I know Islam pretty good as well.

 

Believe me if I say the attitude you have towards Jesus is exactly the same as what Boedists think about Boeda and what Moslims think about Mohammad.

 

Everybody thinks his leader is perfect. Why not saying all of them are equally perfect?

Chicklover, keep studying.

 

Christians deify Jesus, they believe he is God.

 

Muslims do not believe Muhammad was God, they simply believe that he is the final prophet. They also do not reject Jesus.

 

Some Buddhist sects treat Buddha as a God, but the Buddha himself specifically requested that people not make statues of him, nor worship him as anything more than a teacher.

[Moose]

Originally posted by chicklover

Now we are to this point, I should stop reasoning because there is SOMETHING which is beyond my perception.

 

Recently I am studying Boedism. I know Islam pretty good as well.

 

Believe me if I say the attitude you have towards Jesus is exactly the same as what Boedists think about Boeda and what Moslims think about Mohammad.

 

Everybody thinks his leader is perfect. Why not saying all of them are equally perfect?

 

Because that's where most people begin to throw rational thoughts right out of the window because each individual truly believes their God is THE God, there can be none before Him.

 

I believe that the God I worship is above all. Buddists believe their God is above all. We could argue until we're blue in the face, and it wouldn't change our thoughts or beliefs, it'll just wind up getting us all uptight for nothing.

[chicklover]

Muslims do not believe Muhammad was God, they simply believe that he is the final prophet. They also do not reject Jesus.

 

Some Buddhist sects treat Buddha as a God, but the Buddha himself specifically requested that people not make statues of him, nor worship him as anything more than a teacher.

 

You're right. But that is not what I meant. What I wanted to say is the moslims think salvation is only possible through belief in Islam and mohammad. and Boehdist think almost the same way about Bodha and Dharma.

 

They don't recognize other way than their own.

[shadis]

Questions like these would probably be better answered by a member of the clergy.