Dating now vs. late 80's early 90's

[Pompeii]

Have you actually had a discussion with women about how they define a good man? I challenge you to start a thread asking women that very question. You will find VERY different responses then the ones you've suggested.

 

I was trying to say that being a "good man" or being a "real man" when left up to many women is one that will serve the woman entirely instead of existing in its own accord.

[Revolver]

I think social media and the Internet made cheating so much easier.

 

For example there are lots of people who have online dating accounts simply to has someone the side

[carhill]

I like that women don't waste their time nor mine these days, in any interaction, something that was markedly missing from experiences back in the late-80's, early 90's, plus people aren't so deathly afraid of HIV, something which hit me square in the face back then, even as a virgin during that period.

[thefooloftheyear]

Yes, contrary to popular LS belief, there absolutely are men who are capable of thinking with their upper head and not the lower one. To the right woman, that makes them all the more manly and appealing.

 

Ive run into more women at my age(40's) who think with their vagina(or whatever is the equivalent to the male) than with their head...A woman of my age informed me that the main reason for this is that this is their last big push before menopause and all of that nonsense sets in..You all can decide that for yourselves..I dont get it..

 

I cant have a basic conversation with a 40 something anymore without it turning into some cutesy, sexual crap..I dont initiate...heck, im not even looking at the moment.. *shrug*...

 

TFY

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

Then she can look forward to you cheating on her when you get bored.

 

No. Men are not the same as women. I don't get bored easily.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

And... I disagree. One of my friends told me of the concept of "preselection" in which guys who are seen with more women and have success with more women are attractive to women. I have also seen scientific studies that back this up. A lot of women are attracted to men that do or have the potential to sleep around.

 

This is 100% correct. This is why I say over and over again that social status is way more important than looks and money.

 

Few things turn a girl on more than knowing that there are other girls after a particular guy.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

Have you actually had a discussion with women about how they define a good man? I challenge you to start a thread asking women that very question. You will find VERY different responses then the ones you've suggested.

 

Now I can agree that culturally, in the media, a good man is defined by shallow consumer qualities. And that there are women who buy into it. Just as there are men that treat women poorly too and define them by terrible qualities. But it's not the whole story.

 

Maculinity can not survive on it's own. Either can femininity. They are complimentary. One is not better then the other.

 

Masculinity and femininity no longer exist. Men are no longer masculine and women are no longer feminine. If anything, the reverse is now true.

[Els]

Ive run into more women at my age(40's) who think with their vagina(or whatever is the equivalent to the male) than with their head...A woman of my age informed me that the main reason for this is that this is their last big push before menopause and all of that nonsense sets in..You all can decide that for yourselves..I dont get it..

 

I cant have a basic conversation with a 40 something anymore without it turning into some cutesy, sexual crap..I dont initiate...heck, im not even looking at the moment.. *shrug*...

 

TFY

 

Ouch, that sucks. Maybe some of them think that's how they get the guys? I've certainly seen women pull it off with other guys, and it works, though I suppose I have my doubts as to the quality of men they pull in with that method.

[thefooloftheyear]

Ouch, that sucks. Maybe some of them think that's how they get the guys? I've certainly seen women pull it off with other guys, and it works, though I suppose I have my doubts as to the quality of men they pull in with that method.

 

IIRC, you are young(20's?)?....Dont worry, grasshopper...you will soon see the light as well...

 

Kidding, of course..

 

Eh...it might be a geographical thing...I live in an area where the women in this age range are sassy, brash, make good money and are very self assured. I travel around the country quite a bit, and while I am never there long enough to get a real read, I doubt you would see this type of behaviior in the heartland ior the South. That might be part of it..It rarely goes over the top, but clearly therre is a trend that is kind of surprising. Ive been hit on before, but not nearly as much as the last few years...

 

Eh, its no big deal..its kinda funny sometimes..

 

TFY

[thefooloftheyear]

Masculinity and femininity no longer exist. Men are no longer masculine and women are no longer feminine. If anything, the reverse is now true.

 

Women are still feminine....

 

What you are seeing is all on the guys. imo,,,Many guys today are immature little girlymen that wouldnt know what a real man is supposed to be or act like if it hit them in the face...

 

And, no...Its got nothing to do with he-man, macho garbage or PUA bullshyt.

 

TFY

[RedRobin]

Fact of the matter is that a majority of women are like sheep. For a guy to be with a girl, he needs to get vetted by her stupid little friends. If her friends say he's a loser or a creep, then she'll start to believe it too.

 

Preselection is backed up by science. If you try to disprove science, you might as well go join the Flat Earth Society.

 

Based on your posts, I'd say her friends are right.

 

And about the 'science' thing. You obviously aren't a scientist. There is this thing called the scientific method, doncha know. And it is all about trying to disprove theories previously held and by continually questioning assumptions. That is how scientific progress is made.

 

Social filters do serve a purpose. I like them myself, for all kinds of reasons. Different than yours. They are like a prism. The light shines in (you) and exactly how it reflects out (the prism that is the social filter) defines your character... if they are who they say they are. You need to see someone in different situations in order to size them up. Sorry if you don't like that.

 

You do it too. I'm betting you trot your lady friends past your guy friends to get a sense of how 'hot' she is, and you only go after ones other people think are 'hot'. You just don't like it when it gets turned on you.

[RedRobin]

No. Men are not the same as women. I don't get bored easily.

 

Statistically men cheat more than women.

 

Statistically, people who have been promiscuous cheat more than those who aren't.

 

do the math. the highest risk for cheating is a promiscuous man. But you are ok with that as long as it's you cheating... and even then, I'm betting dollars to donuts that women who accept men with double standards also believe that cheating is in a man's nature and will condone it.

 

don't be surprised though, when it doesn't actually play out that way for you in the long run.

 

... but back on topic... As much as I think 'hooking up' is a waste of time and energy, I also think that it is a pretty predictable outcome. Opportunity plus lack of reasons to act otherwise... and lots of people will do whatever is easiest and feels good.

 

Like binge drinking. Most people have gotten thoroughly shyte-faced at least once in their lives before discovering their limits with alcohol. Same goes with sex. I even admit to having one ONS. I admit to getting thoroughly shyte faced enough to get sick. Once. That's all it took for me. Others seem not to figure it out so quick.

Edited September 24, 2013 by RedRobin

[Revolver]

I think east coaster has a point.

 

The current climate we live in ruined a lot of women's chances to be in a meaningful relationship.

 

I was watching morning joe the other day and they were talking about this. Mika said something to the effect off " well its great for girls who just want to hook up but what about the women who a serous relationship/marriage etc?" And I think you see the effects of this everyday on this board. Women who want relationships but can only get sex only arrangements

[Pompeii]

 

You do it too. I'm betting you trot your lady friends past your guy friends to get a sense of how 'hot' she is, and you only go after ones other people think are 'hot'. You just don't like it when it gets turned on you.

 

What makes you think I was talking about me?

 

Your efforts at sounding smart are overblown.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

Women are still feminine....

 

What you are seeing is all on the guys. imo,,,Many guys today are immature little girlymen that wouldnt know what a real man is supposed to be or act like if it hit them in the face...

 

And, no...Its got nothing to do with he-man, macho garbage or PUA bullshyt.

 

TFY

 

I do agree that men are not masculine (which is what I said in the post that you quoted).

 

Generally, what of major aspects of masculinity is dominance. If most men are girlymen, then they are feminine (which is what I said) and, thus, submissive. Well, someone has to be the leader of the relationship, the dominant one. If most men are feminine, this would lead to most women being masculine.

 

Thus, most men are feminine and most women are masculine.

 

You really can't blame this one men, nor can you blame it on women. It is the result of a post-feminist movement society, where women are encouraged to be independent and ambitious career women from a very young age, while men are encouraged to give in to the desires of women constantly.

[thefooloftheyear]

I do agree that men are not masculine (which is what I said in the post that you quoted).

 

Generally, what of major aspects of masculinity is dominance. If most men are girlymen, then they are feminine (which is what I said) and, thus, submissive. Well, someone has to be the leader of the relationship, the dominant one. If most men are feminine, this would lead to most women being masculine.

 

Thus, most men are feminine and most women are masculine.

 

You really can't blame this one men, nor can you blame it on women. It is the result of a post-feminist movement society, where women are encouraged to be independent and ambitious career women from a very young age, while men are encouraged to give in to the desires of women constantly.

 

You missed the point...

 

This really doesnt have anything to do with "masculinity", or dominance at all....Women wind up being the heavy, not because they particualrly want to, but its either that, or let the whole thing go to shyt.

 

So how does women entering the workforce mean they grow a penis? They still are motivated by the same things that all women have been for centuries. The problem is there arent enough strong men to go around.

 

Many men of today are weak willed..They dont want kids because they cant handlle the financial responsibility or perhaps, God forbid, having to carry the load for a while..Nope. They get married because they are still unwilling to remove themselves from a teat..First their mother, then their wives and the resentment builds...Ive seein it a thousand times..

 

As an employer myself I can honestly say that men are weaker than women in the workplace.. They are less reliable, less trustworthy and less motivated. Most dont even care about money...Many rely on thier gf or wife to give them a friggin allowance each week...How damned humiliating can you get.?

 

I can go on but I am tired, so thats about all I can say at this time..

 

TFY

[GravityMan]

I do agree that men are not masculine (which is what I said in the post that you quoted).

 

Generally, what of major aspects of masculinity is dominance. If most men are girlymen, then they are feminine (which is what I said) and, thus, submissive. Well, someone has to be the leader of the relationship, the dominant one. If most men are feminine, this would lead to most women being masculine.

 

Thus, most men are feminine and most women are masculine.

 

You really can't blame this one men, nor can you blame it on women. It is the result of a post-feminist movement society, where women are encouraged to be independent and ambitious career women from a very young age, while men are encouraged to give in to the desires of women constantly.

 

I don't agree with the bolded. I think a much bigger reason why a growing number of men (esp. young men) are "weak" and "pussified" today is because many of them did not have a strong, mature, and responsible father figure actively involved in their lives while they were still kids. The "building blocks" or "seeds" that are necessary for a guy to be an assertive and mentally strong and responsible adult generally need to be planted very early in his life and regularly watered. I also think that increasing rates of people being spoiled while young and having inflated senses of entitlement are notable contributing factors...and so as adults they are accustomed to "getting their way" without having to give much (if any) effort or do much work to earn it. A.K.A. laziness and irresponsibility.

 

So when the struggling guys within this group keep getting rejected by women...resentment, bitterness, even anathema towards the entire gender may gradually set in. And the non-struggling guys in this group are often content with casual relationships and don't want to commit to something more serious, because a LTR requires effort to be sustainable.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

You missed the point...

 

This really doesnt have anything to do with "masculinity", or dominance at all....Women wind up being the heavy, not because they particualrly want to, but its either that, or let the whole thing go to shyt.

 

So how does women entering the workforce mean they grow a penis? They still are motivated by the same things that all women have been for centuries.

 

Negative. Women are much different today than they've ever been. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I don't see how anyone can deny this.

 

Being in the work force as opposed to staying home and taking care of kids WILL change a person. I work in a high status, high stress job alongside many women. These women are not nurturing at all and have VERY dominant personalities (they do the whole competition, power struggle thing).

 

Combine that with the sexual revolution and, yes, women are extremely different than they were 100 years ago.

 

The problem is there arent enough strong men to go around.

 

Women act less feminine and men act less masculine. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself. Men don't NEED to be the masculine protectors anymore because women can protect themselves. Again, I don't see how this is so difficult to understand.

 

Many men of today are weak willed..They dont want kids because they cant handlle the financial responsibility or perhaps, God forbid, having to carry the load for a while..Nope. They get married because they are still unwilling to remove themselves from a teat..First their mother, then their wives and the resentment builds...Ive seein it a thousand times..

 

So wait, guys are getting married (to have a replacement mother), but are not having kids? That's not what I've seen. There are a ton of guys that don't want to get married at all. The ones that do get married generally have kids.

 

As an employer myself I can honestly say that men are weaker than women in the workplace.. They are less reliable, less trustworthy and less motivated. Most dont even care about money...Many rely on thier gf or wife to give them a friggin allowance each week...How damned humiliating can you get.?

 

I can go on but I am tired, so thats about all I can say at this time..

 

TFY

 

This has not been my experience. I've seen both good and bad from both genders in the work force. But this could be explained by the fact that most women I've seen seem to feel like they have something to prove, while most men don't.

 

Again, as I said, it's been my experience that men don't act like men because women don't act like women. You can't expect to have changes that completely redefine one gender and don't change the other gender at all.

 

Men are no longer chivalrous anymore because, at best, women don't care and, at worst, women don't like. A few years ago, I held a door open for a woman and she actually said "I can do it myself!" with an angry look on her face. Has this stopped me from opening doors for people? No. But it gave me a look into the mindset of a modern woman. Why would I want to be chivalrous or protect that?

 

Of course, my girlfriend is VERY feminine and is a real sweetheart. She's extremely rare though, which is why I'm not letting her go.

 

I'm just curious though. With all of this man-shaming about not getting married, having kids, etc, are you even married with kids?

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

I don't agree with the bolded. I think a much bigger reason why a growing number of men (esp. young men) are "weak" and "pussified" today is because many of them did not have a strong, mature, and responsible father figure actively involved in their lives while they were still kids. The "building blocks" or "seeds" that are necessary for a guy to be an assertive and mentally strong and responsible adult generally need to be planted very early in his life and regularly watered. I also think that increasing rates of people being spoiled while young and having inflated senses of entitlement are notable contributing factors...and so as adults they are accustomed to "getting their way" without having to give much (if any) effort or do much work to earn it. A.K.A. laziness and irresponsibility.

 

I agree. I did not have a significant father figure in my life and I struggled for a while because of it (I still do at times....although, not with women anymore).

 

But what do you think has led to the lack of strong father figures? Something must have caused it, as there were plenty of them in past generations...

[MissBee]

Dating for me in the late 90's/early 00's was pretty much... meet a girl at school or work, exchange phone numbers at some point, then either she never answers the phone when I call, OR she talks to me on the phone for hours on end, but drops off the face of the Earth the day we actually make plans. The next time I see her she makes some sort of facile excuse, then we go through the process one or two more times until I give up and drop it.

 

Nowadays it's more like... meet a girl on OkCupid or Facebook... exchange messages endlessly... make occasional references to getting together or making plans which are met with a noncommittal attitude and general wishy-washiness... then wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Generally, I'd say that things have shifted more into the online/electronic realm (where, even with folks I initially meet in person, the primary mode of communication usually very quickly shifts to Facebook or texting), and that refusing to commit to a hangout or other meeting has come to supersede the older custom of agreeing to said meeting, then standing the other up.

 

 

I never dated in the 80s or 90s, but I think this is a fair and reasonable assessment, as so often people tend to romanticize the past as a place where X NEVER happened or was always easier and more wonderful, when usually, it's not really the case, just simply that the same old stuff takes a new form.

Edited September 25, 2013 by MissBee

[thefooloftheyear]

Negative. Women are much different today than they've ever been. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I don't see how anyone can deny this.

 

Being in the work force as opposed to staying home and taking care of kids WILL change a person. I work in a high status, high stress job alongside many women. These women are not nurturing at all and have VERY dominant personalities (they do the whole competition, power struggle thing).

 

Combine that with the sexual revolution and, yes, women are extremely different than they were 100 years ago.

 

 

 

Women act less feminine and men act less masculine. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself. Men don't NEED to be the masculine protectors anymore because women can protect themselves. Again, I don't see how this is so difficult to understand.

 

 

 

So wait, guys are getting married (to have a replacement mother), but are not having kids? That's not what I've seen. There are a ton of guys that don't want to get married at all. The ones that do get married generally have kids.

 

 

 

This has not been my experience. I've seen both good and bad from both genders in the work force. But this could be explained by the fact that most women I've seen seem to feel like they have something to prove, while most men don't.

 

Again, as I said, it's been my experience that men don't act like men because women don't act like women. You can't expect to have changes that completely redefine one gender and don't change the other gender at all.

 

Men are no longer chivalrous anymore because, at best, women don't care and, at worst, women don't like. A few years ago, I held a door open for a woman and she actually said "I can do it myself!" with an angry look on her face. Has this stopped me from opening doors for people? No. But it gave me a look into the mindset of a modern woman. Why would I want to be chivalrous or protect that?

 

Of course, my girlfriend is VERY feminine and is a real sweetheart. She's extremely rare though, which is why I'm not letting her go.

 

I'm just curious though. With all of this man-shaming about not getting married, having kids, etc, are you even married with kids?

 

Have it, done it, been there got the shirt... Do YOU?

 

I have the opposite perspective...Trust me on this NO woman that isnt a closet lesbian doesnt appreciate and desire a "real man"...They just dont exist anymore(well they do, just very rare)..Many guys are just a bunch of big babies. Sorry to say..Yes, they still want a mother..

 

My daughter tells me stories about her friends fathers who run home from work and play computer games...that the KIDS play! These are 40 something year old men! I was absolutely floored.

 

I bet even an independent minded and headstrong woman like RedRobin would love a real man. They all do..I can understand their frustration..It must be incredibly hard.

 

And I also dismiss that story that a woman reacted to you holding the door for you,..She might have been uncomfortable at that moment, but lash out? I highly doubt that ever happened. I hold doors for women all the time, going in and out of stores and what not. I always get a thank you and a smile. Its a nice gesture, who wouldnt?

 

My w had been a SAHM for the entire time from when my kid was born, until she was 9 years old. I worked a little harder and made it happen. My brothers wife made 150K plus bonuses, she is also a SAHM now. She'll eventually go back, but not many guys are man enough to give that up. Most guys wouldnt do that today. In fact, they either dont want kids because they are too afraid of losing their wives paycheck, or if they d, they are pushing their wives to go back to work immediately and toss the kid into day care. heaven forbid they work a little harder to make it happen.

 

I am sure the women will chime in on this..I gotta go...

 

TFY

[RedRobin]

I bet even an independent minded and headstrong woman like RedRobin would love a real man. They all do..I can understand their frustration..It must be incredibly hard.

TFY

 

I DO love 'real' men! They are my friends and mentors. I haven't met any single ones near me. (tapping fingers).

 

Although, interpretations of what is 'real' is necessarily personal. For me, it is a man who is well-balanced and wants a partner. My personal opinion is that men who insist on being with a 'submissive' women or strict gender roles lacks creativity and communication skills. OTOH, that could just be his style. I'd prefer people leave the gender definitions out of it.

 

I'm more of a fan of Harley's approach where each person has important needs (that may or may not fit into gender stereotypes) and that critical issues are resolved until each partner has enthusiastic agreement. Minor issues are managed independently according to each person's strengths/weaknesses.

 

The military-style approach to relationships (man dominant, woman submissive) is, I find limiting and even harmful to long term relationship stability and happiness. Although, I 'get' why so many guys, and even women, like those distinctions. To me, it is lazy.

 

How is dating now different than before? I agree that gender roles are in flux, but again, I think that is a good thing. I believe traditional roles are limiting for both genders.

 

100 years ago, every man was a SAHD and every mom was a working mom. I'm also pretty sure those chicks crossing the plains (or the oceans) with the guys weren't wilting lilies worried about their *&^(%$ manicures. Researchers have noted how the journals kept by the woman hardly even mention pregnancy in their journey. If it weren't for the random "gave birth to John today", they wouldn't even know the woman in the story was pregnant. That's how tough those babes were. So yea, I don't wanna hear about how modern women are supposed be all girly-girls or else they aren't 'feminine'. But I digress...

 

I also think that online dating has been very harmful for building the intimacy necessary for real love to grow. That, paired with all of the general distractions social media provide, and yea, people just don't relate to each other much IRL.

[RedRobin]

Ive had multiple opportunities to use men the way men use women. I have several guys that have crushed on me or that are crushing on me right now that I could do that to and I dont. I could call them up, ask them out on a few dates, have them pay for me and ditch them and keep going. You know why? These things called morals. You ever hear the phrase "treat others how you want to be treated" Some Men dont follow that mentality.

 

I say 'some' because I know of very good men who don't act the way you describe.

 

I agree that a lot don't, especially at a young age. Being in a relationship and/or married by these men is equated with losing their masculinity... well, unless they believe they have a trophy wife or one who goes along with their notion of indentured servitude in exchange for bearing children.

 

They believe to be a 'man' is to be all those negative things you just described. That's their goal. What some describe as 'wussification', is what others would describe as being a thoughtful human being with decent values.

 

You can find better men if you simply avoid the places and people who glorify that existence. It's getting harder and harder.... I agree.

 

Edited: and ditto on the other stuff. I've had the chance to use men quite often. I could have totally ripped my ex-H a new one in the divorce, but didn't.

Edited September 25, 2013 by RedRobin

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

There are very few authentic genuine good guys anymore with good morals. The men my age are all about sex, hedonism and superficiality. Value women mostly for their looks, sex and how willing they are to serve them.

 

There are very few genuine PEOPLE these days. You see all men as being bad because that's all you date. Trust me, women are no picnic either.

 

Ive had multiple opportunities to use men the way men use women. I have several guys that have crushed on me or that are crushing on me right now that I could do that to and I dont. I could call them up, ask them out on a few dates, have them pay for me and ditch them and keep going. You know why? These things called morals. You ever hear the phrase "treat others how you want to be treated" Men dont follow that mentality.

 

I've also had opportunities to use women, but didn't. I've also had women attempt to use me (but fail). It goes both ways.

 

These comments of it all being a girls fault for "allowing" men to use them prove my point...men are more selfish. Men have always been selfish and women have always been expected to be more selfless. Men have always not wanted commitment or relationships most see it as a burden and most men dont want to get marriage. The vast majority of men do it because they are pressured not because they WANT to women force it. Men see girls more as sex objects, just nowadays women let them do it more...but men have always been like this. Most guys see women as how they can fulfill their own selfish desires, not as people with thoughts and dreams like themselves.

 

Women do all of this too (even use men for sex). And it's more common than people seem to think.

 

Most men dream of a feminine girl because feminine girls are seen as hotter and more submissive to tending to their needs way more than vice versa.

 

I will certainly admit that I find feminine girls EXTREMELY attractive. There's nothing like a woman willing to submit herself to me. I LOVE taking the lead.

 

It's a turn-off to me if I have a woman with a more dominant personality. Not a dealbreaker, but a turn-off. Sorry, preferences and such.

[TB Rhine]

I was watching morning joe the other day and they were talking about this. Mika said something to the effect of, "well its great for girls who just want to hook up but what about the women who want a serious relationship/marriage etc?" And I think you see the effects of this everyday on this board. Women who want relationships but can only get sex only arrangements.

 

Women are also waiting until they finish college/are established in their careers to get married. OR cohabitating and having kids with a guy w/o getting married, which makes it a lot easier to go their separate ways if something better comes along, and/or they decide they're simply tired of looking at each other.

 

The upshot is... men and women both are probably waiting longer to get married (into their thirties, say, rather than in their late teens/early 20's, as it would have been not too long in the past). Men, however, are still looking for women in their twenties - women who, in an instinctive and evolutionary sense, are in their reproductive prime - and the gals are left standing around saying, "Hey, what happened to all the guys?"

 

Essentially, men and women are working at cross-purposes these days - men are looking to "tie down" young, attractive women in their reproductive prime, while women are looking to tie down older, stable men who are established in their careers. Doesn't take a genius to see the math doesn't work out there.

 

There's a hilarious video on the interwebz called "The Wall" that illustrates the situation beautifully.