think it's going to happen this time...

[wired55]

I have read some great advice on this board and think I need some. I am in an almost 6 year marriage, with an 18 month old son, that has always been volatile and on the rocks. It seems like every 6 months, if not more often, we are in separation discussions and right now we are at that point again. This time might be the last straw and I figured some of you have been through similar situations.

 

1) I have gone for months now to my own therapist trying to get a handle on myself and see if my wife is right in that everything is really my fault. I try to be objective in our discussions so that it isn't as one sided as it could sound and he has one word for how she acts, narcissistic. He has said that basically I need to find a way to adapt to her behavior or get out. It's like arguing with a 3 year old, and that I need basically to reflect everything she says in a way that makes her seem on the right all the time. Well, that's exhausting when you are being called a worthless SOB everyday. And that is where our cycle begins. I will say something she doesn't like or disagrees with, she will make a comeback to me, I get defensive and spout off things to fire her up more, or just go into a shell. I don't like confrontation and she excels at it. She constantly calls me a whimp (and even a p*ssy) because I don't like confrontation. She has a very short temper and is very strong headed. She has butted heads with my parents, with my religious leader (we have different religious backgrounds), and other work colleagues.

 

2) If it has always been volatile, why did we have a son? Since I have known my wife, and we have been together for 11 years (5 prior to marriage) , we have always had a rocky relationship, but just always felt if we can just try to get along it will get better. Usually, it's if I would only do things better, it would be great. We have gone to relationship counselors before, but she is very quick with words, and I am more slow in my thought process, often thinking of what I should have said long after we had left. So, she was good at getting her points across and the therapist would usually say that I need to change in regards to being more affectionate and communicate better. So, she constantly says "see, you need to change" . I would try to do some of the things recommended but when I do make an effort, something small usually happens to start an argument and sabotage those efforts, then I usually clam up and nothing happens. Unfortunately, when it gets bad, it's real bad. Almost to the point of physical contact on both our parts, and verbal abuse from both sides. When she gets real mad, she likes to come at me like she's about to throw a punch, which really gets my heard and blood racing. I have a hard time being lovey dovey to somebody that can get me that riled up. That being said, I love my son beyond anything and want to do what's right for him.

 

3) We don't now, nor ever, been able to just sit down comfortably and stress free, and talk as adults about life, what we want in life and for our futures. My wife has an identical twin sister (married 12 years, no kids) whom she is very close to. In fact they do stuff almost every day and when people ask my sister-in-law when is she going to have kids, the answer is why?, she has our son. It seems like I am always in competition with her sister and family, and she ALWAYS has her sister's back in those competitions. She is also very close to her mother and female first cousin, and do things almost daily together like going to water parks, amusement parks, estate sales and pretty much in that order every week. I don't know why that bothers me, but just seems like she could be more productive with our son, maybe doing more play groups with kids his age.

 

4) I would like to think in a relationship that I should be very comfortable calling my wife or saying what really bothers me during the day, whether it's work related or not. I like to think it would be like when I call my parents, I always have a warm, comfortable feeling, for example, I can be totally honest with them and they always have my back. I cringe calling my wife because in my mind it's always going to be about what I did wrong, and I never have that comfortable feeling, but that is something I want in a relationship.

 

5) I have a professional practice and am very fortunate to be very successful and can provide a lot of luxuries. We have a very nice house, boats, ability to travel, etc. She worked until having our son 18 months ago, and now stays home with him. When I come home, I like to have a few minutes to recoup from the day, and then try to do the best I can sharing duties or watching my son so she can do what she needs to. I feel like I am always criticized for not doing enough and am told often that I am worthless and just sit on my ass. She says my job is 8-5 and so is hers, so when I get home I have to do the same amount of stuff she does. I feel like we should each have more mutual respect for each other, but we don't and often argue about this. She calls me worthless, but then when my comeback is that I am busy paying her bills, she says I always throw it in her face that she isn't working and that I make a lot more than her, or that I have no respect for how hard she works during the day with my son. I know it is very hard raising our son, but I will say with having her sister and mother watch him a lot (almost daily), and with his 3 hour nap he takes in the middle of the day, it's not as hard as it could be.

 

6) We have almost zero physical relationship. We have sex maybe 1/month, sometimes once every few months. She is a beautiful lady, but because of her hard attitude and constant reprimanding towards me, I am really not very attracted to her, and don't think MC would sway me to think differently. I think she feels the same way, why get all dolled up when there is just a feeling of blah between us because of all the arguing.

 

So, I feel like I basically have a roommate, but every time we discuss separation, it's a lot of tough talk, but we never get around to doing it, mainly because it's placed on me to make the first step. She has said she doesn't want our son to be taken out of his comfortable surroundings, so I should be the one to move out. Well, I feel I worked hard for the house and have a hard time leaving it. I did recently tell her, I would stay somewhere else at nights, but want to come home every day after work to see my son. She said she won't keep me from seeing him, but that may not work. I am turning 41 this week and just don't know what to do. I feel like life is short and I am missing the opportunity to be really happy in life and that there has to be a situation that is better out there for her and I. But, when I look at my son, playing and laughing, it breaks my heart that I may be messing him up for life, if we separate. He didn't ask to be put in this situation. I feel like we are beyond MC. UGH, any advice would be appreciated.

[wired55]

Bump. I think the advice I am looking for is:

 

a) if you decide to separate, until the 1st full year is up, how do you determine the schedule to see my son. Is it up to her?

 

b) After we argue, which is probably 2-3 times per week, usually nothing is said for a night or a few hours, then it seems like everything is swept under the rug, and the night carries on like nothing happened. This pattern has occurred so often now, that it seems almost impossible to break. So, what are some ways to break that pattern and if we decide to separate, which it's up to me to follow through with the first move, what are some ways to be firm and not blink? When it comes to the point of no return, I get cold feet and just can't seem to follow through. A lot of it is because of my son, but also just because I am so used to our routine.

[M30USA]

He has said that basically I need to find a way to adapt to her behavior or get out.

 

Only a person who has experienced such a thing can understand what you just said here. I know exactly what you mean, brother. 100%. It's a tough decision. It's almost like, if you choose to stay, you must committ a sort of suicide; you must kill part of yourself and your well-being in order to adapt to them. And what makes it WORST is that you won't even be praised or appreciated for the sacrifice. Instead you become the scapegoat and object of blame.

[wired55]

Only a person who has experienced such a thing can understand what you just said here. I know exactly what you mean, brother. 100%. It's a tough decision. It's almost like, if you choose to stay, you must committ a sort of suicide; you must kill part of yourself and your well-being in order to adapt to them. And what makes it WORST is that you won't even be praised or appreciated for the sacrifice. Instead you become the scapegoat and object of blame.

 

Exactly right. I know marriage is work, but it gets old getting constantly put down. I kept telling that to the therapist and he just kept saying basically what you did. If I want to stay, it's going to be constantly throwing myself under the bus. My problem now is, separate from my son, I have gotten so used to this routine. She does cook, clean, and I think she is a good mother to my son, but in my mind it's just a loveless marriage as I have lost all the will to do the nice things I used to love doing. I used to think I was pretty romantic, buying flowers, planning trips away, etc. Now, I have zero desire to do those things, because whenever I do, something happens and it blows up in my face being told I'm an a-hole. It's always over something stupid. But it spirals out of control so fast, I don't know what happened or what I said. My memory isn't as good as hers, so she constantly says "what did you just say?" over and over and if I don't get it right she continues to hound me til I do. I have become numb. But I feel I don't have enough guts to do something.

[agent.006]

Only a person who has experienced such a thing can understand what you just said here. I know exactly what you mean, brother. 100%. It's a tough decision. It's almost like, if you choose to stay, you must committ a sort of suicide; you must kill part of yourself and your well-being in order to adapt to them. And what makes it WORST is that you won't even be praised or appreciated for the sacrifice. Instead you become the scapegoat and object of blame.

 

Sounds like my choice. Stay and let my happiness commit suicide or leave and feel so lonely that my happiness commits suicide. I just want peace and happiness, no matter how it comes.

[M30USA]

Sounds like my choice. Stay and let my happiness commit suicide or leave and feel so lonely that my happiness commits suicide. I just want peace and happiness, no matter how it comes.

 

Happiness is an elusive thing. You try to run after it and it eludes you. I recommend not seeking happiness, but rather seeking contentment and peace.

[wired55]

Happiness is an elusive thing. You try to run after it and it eludes you. I recommend not seeking happiness, but rather seeking contentment and peace.

 

Well, then I guess that is the conundrum. Is contentment and piece defined as being with my son everyday, having someone that can cook, clean, and take care of my son, but not really have a loving marriage, hence no "real" happiness or is it defined as starting over with the hope of finding a true happiness (to me defined as a happy marriage, not a loveless one), but not being with my son everyday?

[mikei880]

A little tough love here....

 

What are you getting out of this relationship? No intimacy, abuse, (emotional and bordering on physical), no sex. And you are staying why? So your son has a family unit? This is not that, it's chaos. He is coming into the time when he is learning behaviors. Do you want this for him? If things continue this way he will seek these kinds of relationships out and the cycle continues.

 

Your wife is using the therapists words to twist things her way. She is not trying to fix things between you ,just stay in control.

 

A therapist will not tell you what to do, only give you options.

 

IMHO: find an attorney, a men's rights one. Keep going to therapy yourself.

 

How do I know these things? Been there, done that!

 

Good luck...

[K Os]

Well, then I guess that is the conundrum. Is contentment and piece defined as ... ?

 

wired55, I feel you've pretty much defined your idea of contentment and peace in a relationship in your first posting:

 

3) We don't now, nor ever, been able to just sit down comfortably and stress free, and talk as adults about life...

4) I would like to think in a relationship that I should be very comfortable calling my wife or saying what really bothers me during the day, whether it's work related or not. I like to think it would be like when I call my parents, I always have a warm, comfortable feeling, for example, I can be totally honest with them and they always have my back. I cringe calling my wife because in my mind it's always going to be about what I did wrong, and I never have that comfortable feeling, but that is something I want in a relationship.

And you're right. This is what feeling secure and comfortable with a partner is like, and should be like.

 

But, when I look at my son, playing and laughing, it breaks my heart that I may be messing him up for life, if we separate. He didn't ask to be put in this situation.

I feel there are other ways of looking at this that you probably can't see from where you are right now. Firstly, there's no hard and fast rule that parental separation messes up kids. Sure, parents happy together is the best base for them, but unhappy parents together can be a lot worse for a child than happy parents apart. He might suffer more from having a highly emotionally volatile home, with an unhappy dad, than two more contented homes. My son has two homes, and there seems to be more general peace and contentment than there was two years ago. I personally believe that kids do better in marital homes even where there is a high level of conflict, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and there is a tipping point where separation is better for everyone. That's just my view.

 

She has said she doesn't want our son to be taken out of his comfortable surroundings, so I should be the one to move out. Well, I feel I worked hard for the house and have a hard time leaving it.

I'm sure you have. Why should you leave? How about the alternative? If you're aiming for a more contented life, be careful about setting yourself up for any bitterness about what you sacrifice in the process.

 

Not an easy crossroads to reach, by any means. I wish you the best.

[wired55]

A little tough love here....

 

What are you getting out of this relationship? No intimacy, abuse, (emotional and bordering on physical), no sex. And you are staying why? So your son has a family unit? This is not that, it's chaos. He is coming into the time when he is learning behaviors. Do you want this for him? If things continue this way he will seek these kinds of relationships out and the cycle continues.

 

Your wife is using the therapists words to twist things her way. She is not trying to fix things between you ,just stay in control.

 

A therapist will not tell you what to do, only give you options.

 

IMHO: find an attorney, a men's rights one. Keep going to therapy yourself.

 

How do I know these things? Been there, done that!

 

Good luck...

 

Thank you for your post, and I have a hard time answering it. Everytime we get to these points of possible separation (and it's often), at the 11:59th hour, we both back off and act like nothing happened and just continue on until the next inevitable ruckus starts, sweeping everything under the rug. I just find myself overthinking everything, and lose my resolve to follow through, and just so back to a comfort factor of day to day activities. And that's before having my son. Now, I just don't know which way is better for him. I see him run between us at nights laughing and having a great time, and feel that if he wasn't able to do that, it might somehow effect his future happiness. I am sure a lot of people on here have these thoughts of what's life going to be like for him going between separate homes. If my wife remarries, and he stays there more than with me, will I lose the fatherhood that I would have otherwise and he starts to think of whomever she remarries as his father. I would never vacate from his life, but how much of a reduction in time spent severly effects his and my future relationship?

[M30USA]

Kids know who their real dad is. I hardly saw mine and I sti had more of a connection to him than my stepdad.

[M30USA]

OP, going back to your post where the therapist said you have to either adjust to her unwillingness to change or simply leave, I noticed how my ex FIL managed to adapt to my ex's mom. He became a workaholic. He not only had a regular full time job, but he spent most weekends working on rental properties which he owned (11 total). The guy was a work maniac. I began to suspect that he was at least PARTLY doing it because he would get bossed around and walked all over at home. So I guess he made a choice and that's how he adapted. I can't do that. I want my home to be a refuge, not a place I need to escape.

[mikei880]

Talk to a therapist and attorney, they have answered all your questions a zillion times.

 

Find the serenity prayer and read it through, especially the first 7 lines, that is probably the single thing that made me decide to move on.

 

Things will get better! You will wonder what the hell you were waiting for...you will find someone else and you will grow because of this.

[JaelBlue]

It's almost like, if you choose to stay, you must committ a sort of suicide; you must kill part of yourself and your well-being in order to adapt to them. And what makes it WORST is that you won't even be praised or appreciated for the sacrifice. Instead you become the scapegoat and object of blame.

 

I'm not one to give good advice because I am still in a bad marriage but I can tell you I did this...committ a sort of suicide. It has been 21 years and it does not get better. And the adapting has to happen daily. Keeping this on an even keel is a moving target. Happiness? Not gonna happen. Get out while you can. It only gets more difficult over time.

[Mr. Lucky]

Thank you for your post, and I have a hard time answering it. Everytime we get to these points of possible separation (and it's often), at the 11:59th hour, we both back off and act like nothing happened and just continue on until the next inevitable ruckus starts, sweeping everything under the rug. I just find myself overthinking everything, and lose my resolve to follow through, and just so back to a comfort factor of day to day activities. And that's before having my son. Now, I just don't know which way is better for him. I see him run between us at nights laughing and having a great time, and feel that if he wasn't able to do that, it might somehow effect his future happiness. I am sure a lot of people on here have these thoughts of what's life going to be like for him going between separate homes. If my wife remarries, and he stays there more than with me, will I lose the fatherhood that I would have otherwise and he starts to think of whomever she remarries as his father. I would never vacate from his life, but how much of a reduction in time spent severly effects his and my future relationship?

My wife and I divorced just before our son turned 3. And our married relationship was much like yours - roommates, and lousy ones at that.

 

He's now a fine young man with a family of his own. And I had more quality and stress-free time with him post-divorce then when married to and fighting with his mom.

 

The bigger question is this - what example do you want to set for him? What relationship model to you want him to see? If things truly aren't fixable and are as bad as you describe, it sounds like a terrible environment in which to be a husband, wife - or child. Not healthy for anyone involved...

 

Mr. Lucky

[wired55]

Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them as it seems like many on this board have gone through similar situations. It's just so easy to look the other way once the dust has settled. Two nights ago, we were at the point of no return, yelling at each other and saying the worst things imagineable. I have said nothing, just haven't moved out of the house, but because 2 days have gone by, she is acting like everything is great. She just called my, asked what I wanted for dinner, and wants to make plans for the weekend. She has the nerve to constantly call me bipolar and that's how she's acting. Because, I haven't had the guts to follow through, this will just start the same cycle. I could get home tonight, accidentally say something odd about her sister and it's WWIII again.

[wired55]

I'm sure you have. Why should you leave? How about the alternative? If you're aiming for a more contented life, be careful about setting yourself up for any bitterness about what you sacrifice in the process.

 

 

 

 

She has told me if I am not the one to move out, then I'm stuck because she won't. She doesn't want to uproot my son. She constantly says it's her house anyway (at least 50%). She then procedes to tell me I am not staying in our bedroom, I have to stay down stairs. It really gets ridiculous.

[M30USA]

Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate them as it seems like many on this board have gone through similar situations. It's just so easy to look the other way once the dust has settled. Two nights ago, we were at the point of no return, yelling at each other and saying the worst things imagineable. I have said nothing, just haven't moved out of the house, but because 2 days have gone by, she is acting like everything is great. She just called my, asked what I wanted for dinner, and wants to make plans for the weekend. She has the nerve to constantly call me bipolar and that's how she's acting. Because, I haven't had the guts to follow through, this will just start the same cycle. I could get home tonight, accidentally say something odd about her sister and it's WWIII again.

 

Sometimes if it's severe enough, you can develop a PTSD-like complex where you can't relax out of fear there will be another blowup. This is exactly what happened to me. And what's hilarious is that her parents, who clearly didn't know me before I married their daughter, said in court that I was "unaffected by things" and "guarded and reserved". Well, around your daughter and your family, sure.

[wired55]

Sometimes if it's severe enough, you can develop a PTSD-like complex where you can't relax out of fear there will be another blowup. This is exactly what happened to me. And what's hilarious is that her parents, who clearly didn't know me before I married their daughter, said in court that I was "unaffected by things" and "guarded and reserved". Well, around your daughter and your family, sure.

 

 

exactly, I am a shell of my former self.

[K Os]

She has told me if I am not the one to move out, then I'm stuck because she won't. She doesn't want to uproot my son. She constantly says it's her house anyway (at least 50%). She then procedes to tell me I am not staying in our bedroom, I have to stay down stairs. It really gets ridiculous.

 

I went through this for months and it was hell. My situation differed from yours in two ways - my son was 14 years old, and once my wife had decided to quit, the tension and pressure were pretty relentless, with her trying to drive me out of the home. She insisted on separate rooms, and it took me a while to turn this around and insist I should have the bedroom because she was the one leaving the marriage. It was a cold war. Eventually she moved out and got her own place. It took paid mediation to work this out, and a hell of a lot of determination. Now our son spends time with each of us 50/50, and while it's difficult I appreciate it as the best arrangement I could get. I see it's different for you as your son is so young, and he will naturally need to be with his mother for more of the time than with you. From my experience of the past two years, I'd say the most important thing is that you don't get walked on if you do decide to separate. The more you allow her to have her way, the easier it becomes for her to do. First you're agreeing to sleep downstairs, before you know it she'll be telling you how often you can visit.

[M30USA]

I went through this for months and it was hell. My situation differed from yours in two ways - my son was 14 years old, and once my wife had decided to quit, the tension and pressure were pretty relentless, with her trying to drive me out of the home. She insisted on separate rooms, and it took me a while to turn this around and insist I should have the bedroom because she was the one leaving the marriage. It was a cold war. Eventually she moved out and got her own place. It took paid mediation to work this out, and a hell of a lot of determination. Now our son spends time with each of us 50/50, and while it's difficult I appreciate it as the best arrangement I could get. I see it's different for you as your son is so young, and he will naturally need to be with his mother for more of the time than with you. From my experience of the past two years, I'd say the most important thing is that you don't get walked on if you do decide to separate. The more you allow her to have her way, the easier it becomes for her to do. First you're agreeing to sleep downstairs, before you know it she'll be telling you how often you can visit.

 

I wish so badly that I had 50/50 split time. My ex wife would budge on anything. She wanted it all. So I got default standard possession from judge.

[K Os]

I wish so badly that I had 50/50 split time. My ex wife would budge on anything. She wanted it all. So I got default standard possession from judge.

 

My wife thought 50/50 was too much for me, but couldn't come up with any rational argument to back this up, so she agreed. I know it can't last - my son is 15 now and he's had enough of being a nomad. He keeps angling for ways to bend the arrangement. I'm thinking when he turns 16 I'll hand over control to him of how long he spends where, and then I'm sure I'll see less of him. Whatever happens in the future, I go into it having made some important facts very clear to my son:

- she left me, not vice versa

- her decision to leave me didn't boot me out of the family home

- I'm his dad forever and he can rely on me 100%.

 

With those things straight, I feel our relationship will be rock solid as he heads into adulthood.

[wired55]

My wife thought 50/50 was too much for me, but couldn't come up with any rational argument to back this up, so she agreed. I know it can't last - my son is 15 now and he's had enough of being a nomad. He keeps angling for ways to bend the arrangement. I'm thinking when he turns 16 I'll hand over control to him of how long he spends where, and then I'm sure I'll see less of him. Whatever happens in the future, I go into it having made some important facts very clear to my son:

- she left me, not vice versa

- her decision to leave me didn't boot me out of the family home

- I'm his dad forever and he can rely on me 100%.

 

With those things straight, I feel our relationship will be rock solid as he heads into adulthood.

 

Thank you for your incite. In your posts you have discussed what a lot of my fears are in regards to my son. She is trying to dictate how often I would be able to see him, etc. My immediate issue right now is that she keeps putting it on my to make the final move which then she can later say it's me that made the decision, and probably tell my son that in the future as well. She'll tell me it's clear we need to separate, but it's up to me to decide to either work on the marriage or move out. That's where I flail.

[Yasuandio]

Bump. I think the advice I am looking for is:

 

a) if you decide to separate, until the 1st full year is up, how do you determine the schedule to see my son. Is it up to her?

 

b) After we argue, which is probably 2-3 times per week, usually nothing is said for a night or a few hours, then it seems like everything is swept under the rug, and the night carries on like nothing happened. This pattern has occurred so often now, that it seems almost impossible to break. So, what are some ways to break that pattern and if we decide to separate, which it's up to me to follow through with the first move, what are some ways to be firm and not blink? When it comes to the point of no return, I get cold feet and just can't seem to follow through. A lot of it is because of my son, but also just because I am so used to our routine.

 

I can give you a great way to stop an argument that I learned from a therapist many years ago.

 

Simply say: "Believe what you want to believe."

 

No matter what. Hear out whatever the side of her argument is, (which of course, at this point is unreseasonable), and state, "believe what you want to believe," or any variation thereof.

 

Another method comes from Homer McDonald (see thread below). Absolutely agree with everything she says. Then thank her for pointing these things out to you.

 

Arguing is a waste of time. Neither person is listening. Hope this helps. Yas

[K Os]

Thank you for your incite. In your posts you have discussed what a lot of my fears are in regards to my son. She is trying to dictate how often I would be able to see him, etc. My immediate issue right now is that she keeps putting it on my to make the final move which then she can later say it's me that made the decision, and probably tell my son that in the future as well.

 

I'm sure you're right - this approach is to force all the responsibility onto you, and I'm afraid it's a familiar path. I refused to do this, and hung on for a long time saying that if she wanted to end it, she should go. She eventually did. And yes, the 'storyline' for your boy is an important consideration for her, as it was for my wife. My son tells me he knows that she left me, and I'm sure she hates this.

 

She'll tell me it's clear we need to separate, but it's up to me to decide to either work on the marriage or move out. That's where I flail.

 

Of course you flail here. Check the logic. She's saying it's clear you need to separate, but it's up to you to decide whether to work on the marriage? Stay and work on the marriage on your own? That doesn't stack up. If you want to work on the marriage together, and she's really prepared to do her share of that, then it's not clear that you need to separate at all - in fact quite the opposite. You can't decide this for her, but you can give her the option instead of you holding it all. To do this successfully, you need to be clear which way you want it to go. Do you really want to split, or would you like to work it out? If the latter, you can give HER the option of staying and working on it - MC or whatever route you think best. And if she doesn't want to do that, then SHE is the one who wants to go, isn't she?

 

I know it's very difficult to get clarity in the position you're in. I'm still struggling to get clarity in my situation. I've been separated 14 months and I still have no idea if she's divorcing me or not. Hang in there, try to keep a clear head and keep it rational. The emotions involved can really warp the logic.