Career or Marriage?

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Moose

Then make number 1 your family.....or don't do anything at all for that matter. Whatever it may be, your job isn't worth losing or hurting your family over. Period.

 

I read somewhere that #1 on a list should be oneself; and as long that everything is good with you then everything else will fall in place.

[Moose]

hmmmm, interesting. I don't agree, but interesting none the less. I've always but myself at the end of my list......

 

Putting yourself first is selfish in my opinion.

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Moose

hmmmm, interesting. I don't agree, but interesting none the less. I've always but myself at the end of my list......

 

Putting yourself first is selfish in my opinion.

 

Let me put this way -as this is somehow related to the thread I opened-...

 

...if you don't love yourself, if you're not satisfied with your own life; there's no freaking way you'll be able to be a good Christian, a good mother, a friend, a father, a husband or wife, an employee.

 

When you don't love yourself, then you won't be able to love anybody. It sounds selfish, but at the end of the day, no matter how much you have given from yourself to others... the only one that can really look out for you is yourself.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by Moose

hmmmm, interesting. I don't agree, but interesting none the less. I've always but myself at the end of my list......

 

Putting yourself first is selfish in my opinion.

 

No MOOSE, i believe that God specifically said "put thyself first and before those-eth around-eth thyself"

[Moose]

...if you don't love yourself, if you're not satisfied with your own life; there's no freaking way you'll be able to be a good Christian, a good mother, a friend, a father, a husband or wife, an employee.

 

What does loving yourself have to do with putting your family first? Absolutley nothing!

 

Alphamale, you know what you can kisseth?..................

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Moose

What does loving yourself have to do with putting your family first? Absolutley nothing!

 

Alphamale, you can kisseth my..................

 

Ok, let me explain with a VERY graphical case. There was a woman in Texas who was very sick, yet she always put her family first.

She always followed her very Christian and responsible husband - they lived in some inside a school bus at some point-. She hated it, yet she put her family first.

She had five adorable kids and she stayed home and took care of them while her husband worked.

But you know what? Woman didn't love herself.

 

 

 

Andrea Yates ended up drowing her five kids.

[Moose]

Listen, you're taking things out of context here. Loving yourself is a given already, (As far as a Christian is concerned), and I could take that graphic that you provided and say that the woman DID love herself, so much so that her children didn't matter at all......hence she killed them.

 

Besides that, I'm not talking about what or who you should love first, second or third, I'm talking about what order you place your priorities. Do you work on being closer, improving, and working on your marriage first, or your job?

[CurlyIam]

As a non American person, trying to integrate in the US, do you think it's wise to give up your own career? Especially after working so hard? A woman with a child, that is.

 

Think of what's at stake. Think of her career is. We all say words like "carrer", but what we mean is a certain sum on money at the end of the month. Not necessarily being driven to work. to contribute.

 

Hey, if I had her brain and her possibility, you bet I'd be fighting to be internationally recognised! I'm doing a Master also in management right now, but I have seen a bit what research means. The amount of work, dedication and will. And sacrifices. That do cannot be quantified in money. that's the trick. If you work hard enough and are gifted, and lucky, you might get spotted. And then... it's jackpot! but you need to work everyday,everyday. And after a certain amount of time, you need fresh ideas, fresh perspectives. Think of giving up at least 8 years of your life of study without reaching your potential.

 

 

this is not "I put on my business suit and I go to work" type of business! I think that much more is at stake here.

[Apathy]

Originally posted by Moose

Listen, you're taking things out of context here. Loving yourself is a given already, (As far as a Christian is concerned), and I could take that graphic that you provided and say that the woman DID love herself, so much so that her children didn't matter at all......hence she killed them.

 

Besides that, I'm not talking about what or who you should love first, second or third, I'm talking about what order you place your priorities. Do you work on being closer, improving, and working on your marriage first, or your job?

 

Yes, I guess a person so much in love with herself will attempt suicide several times. *rolleyes*

 

Me? Out of context?

Hey, you were the one who previously told this woman as an advice that if she placed God first then the rest of the stuff will get solved. And then, that might work for you, because maybe you feel happy and contented when you go to church or pray at home...thus the you are FIRST! That's the list of priorities that makes YOU feel good.

In this case, we don't know -hell, the original poster is not sure herself- if following her desired career path is what makes her happier than being with the husband she have expressed to love.

Lets say she decides that her marriage makes her way happier than her career, and lucky her, she's right. And she feels fulfilled all her life as a wife with the not-so-stellar job.

Sure, this can work backwards too, she realizes that she made a HUGE mistake by putting her brilliant career on the line because of married life and she start resenting that. Bitter and resentful people don't make good parents or spouses.

 

Anyways, Anais, I'll take back my original advice. Hell, I'll apply this to myself - great, I found an answer for my problem on your thread-, the only person that can make the desicion between career or familiy, is YOU and only you.

The only one that can compare the CONS and BENS of each choice is YOU. It doesn't matter what a bunch of unknown people tell you will be the best choice, YOU are the one who is going to live with the outcome of whatever choice you make. I know what I wrote sound very "DUH! hey that's obvious!", but that's the way it is.

 

You have to make the best desicion for yourself.

[moimeme]

But you know what? Woman didn't love herself.

 

Andrea Yates ended up drowing her five kids.

 

Utterly bogus cause-effect conclusion. Andrea Yates was severely mentally ill. Mental illness is a physical condition. Her actions were the product of a delusion, not of failed or excessive self-love.

 

But a job is damn good for paying the bills and your self-esteem.

 

She's not going to be impoverished. She's marrying a bleepin' engineer!!! And, Alpha, those jobs that you rest your self-esteem on ditch you as fast as look at you when cost-cutting's in the cards. You hang your esteem on work and you're bound to suffer.

 

A career is not that great a thing. Some of the people lauding career as the be-all and end-all appear to be students who haven't spent that much time in the real world. Once you have, you understand that there are significant downsides to careers and to working. There is a whole raft of books written by people who quit work to focus on family and are overjoyed to have done so.

[VirginiaBob]

"A career is not that great a thing. Some of the people lauding career as the be-all and end-all appear to be students who haven't spent that much time in the real world. Once you have, you understand that there are significant downsides to careers and to working."

 

No kidding, if I could retire tomorrow, I would in a heartbeat. I remember before I had a career, it was supposed to be the greatest thing, but really it's just a way to make money. I don't hate it or anything, but I'm not in love with it either.

[moimeme]

Oh - and management studies? Please tell me no. Because, dear friends, I assure you that all the marvellous and wonderful management theoreticians have been largely ignored. Except the 'geniuses' who come up with foolish schemes like 're-engineering' which prove to be utterly disastrous in the workplace. Re-engineering guy recanted, even.

 

Poor Drucker.

 

I've got two degrees in social science disciplines. The greatest lesson they taught me is that modelling is a tremendous intellectual exercise but its prescriptive/predictive capabilities are virtually nonexistent.

 

In the end, the one secret to successful management is treating people well. The trick that no theory will ever teach is how to persuade management to actually do that. If you ladies are going into management studies hoping to change the world, definitely go with the family first because that is one brick-wall-head-beating hope you got.

[Apathy]

Originally posted by moimeme

Utterly bogus cause-effect conclusion. Andrea Yates was severely mentally ill. Mental illness is a physical condition. Her actions were the product of a delusion, not of failed or excessive self-love.

 

She was severely depressed, and as depression is a physical-triggered condition is also deeply connected to psychological intangible part. And yes there is a lot of not loving oneself involved in the mix.

BTW...

"Is it possible that Andrea Yates lacked a cohesive social network, while suffering from the psychological and physical strain of taking care of her children? There's evidence that Yates suffered from depression throughout her five pregnancies as she attempted suicide twice and was hospitalized four times from 1999 to 2001(1). There is also evidence that gender role expectations left her with a large load of housework. "Man is the breadwinner and the woman is the homemaker" stated her husband in testimony(1). When at the Oprah Winfrey Show, Rusty explained how he and Andrea were planning to have as many children as possible because they loved and valued their family."

 

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web2/calbert.html

 

I'm a depression sufferer myself, came out of the blue -something not clickin right inside my head- and yes, it has affected my sense of self-love. When you feel guilty -for why? beats me!-, worthless and empty...believe me, there's not much self-love. Why do you think so many of "us" end up pulling a trigger or getting an OD?

Have you being put to the point of really despising what you are?

That's how it feels.

 

 

She's not going to be impoverished. She's marrying a bleepin' engineer!!! And, Alpha, those jobs that you rest your self-esteem on ditch you as fast as look at you when cost-cutting's in the cards. You hang your esteem on work and you're bound to suffer.

 

A career is not that great a thing. Some of the people lauding career as the be-all and end-all appear to be students who haven't spent that much time in the real world. Once you have, you understand that there are significant downsides to careers and to working. There is a whole raft of books written by people who quit work to focus on family and are overjoyed to have done so.

 

A career is not a great thing, at least from your perspective...and I concur. I think is overhyped from my point of view.

Yet, for Anais -and obviously for engineer husband- their careers mean a lot; that's the root of this whole dilemma. For both of them those careers are important, if they weren't she wouldn't be here asking for advice.

 

PD. Just to add that engineering is SO overrated...not that a great thing.

[moimeme]

I know what depressionis but I don't think Yates is a useful story for this thread; I scarcely think Anais was planning to give up all thought of ever working, stay at home exclusively, do all the housework, and create a litter of her own. Besides, I gather she's moving fairly close to a large centre.

 

Well it is a small town but there is a big city in about an hour distance. We can live somewhere in the middle. My problem is that there is nothing in my area available around. Most of faculty in main universities have research interests that are different from mine.

 

Oh and back to that - isn't the point to have faculty with different interests?? I imagine you should be able to 'sell' yourself and the courses you'd like to teach if you're good enough and have an interesting enough metier.

[Anais]

Thank you all for your thoughts/ advice.

 

 

On a side note most jobs have a 90 day probationary period it's for you and your employer to determine if the job is a good fit for both of you.

 

Not sure if University jobs got that. I can imagine what the job will be like. I have visited that university few years before and my previous job duties were pretty much the same.

 

 

 

 

If it's passion, if you have the chance to contribute and develop something... you should think about that too.

 

That is true. I really love to do research and enjoy sharing my knowledge with students.

Your husband is incredibly understanding...

 

Yes, he is amazing. I think he deserved to have a loving family around him, not far away.

 

 

So...I'll ask the question. And when I ask it, SAY THE FIRST WORD THAT POPS IN YOUR MIND. Because that's really the answer you've been seeking.

 

Which is more important to you right now, your family or your career?

 

 

And you're answer is?

Family.

 

 

Another thing to consider is the years of service that your husband has been at his current job. If he has been there a while, but not long enough, he might lose his retirement. I know people that have left their jobs after 20 years and had no retirement because they needed 30 years to get the benefits.

Yes it is a problem. He has been 10 year now with the company. So we need to wait 20 years. Next problem is the vacation time. If he takes a new job he starts from no days, I think. This is really bad in US compared to Europe. He gets 6 weeks there, but when he is back he gets only 4 weeks.

 

You are partially correct, as always, MOIMEME. But a job is damn good for paying the bills and your self-esteem.

 

Yes it is. I have been paying my bills myself all the time. Never got or wanted support from ex or someone else. I did all by myself. I am not sure I would ever say the words “ I want “ if I am not earning money. Well I will be going some job for sure.

 

Man, my live is so much easier when I prioritize......

 

1. God

2. Family

3. Everything else

Couldn’t agree more Moose..

 

 

I just don’t get if this is a temptation or what? I did not apply anyplace but the city he is moving. This position just was dropped on my head. I was contacted by department chair on Christmas day and asked to send papers.

 

Anyways, Anais, I'll take back my original advice. Hell, I'll apply this to myself - great, I found an answer for my problem on your thread-, the only person that can make the desicion between career or familiy, is YOU and only you.

I am glad you found an answer. Yes, only I can make a decision in this situation. But I really found all comments very helpful; they made me to think about the situation from different prespectives.

 

Think of giving up at least 8 years of your life of study without reaching your potential.

 

I am not giving up the hope to find something yet. Honestly, I didn’t follow Moi’s advice to contact different departments yet. I kind of don’t feel comfortable doing it. I am shy and cannot advertise myself. I am planning to do it sometime soon though.

 

 

Oh and back to that - isn't the point to have faculty with different interests?? I imagine you should be able to 'sell' yourself and the courses you'd like to teach if you're good enough and have an interesting enough metier.

 

Moi I would think like you too. But I was very disappointed. The announcement says: “The department seeks candidates whose research interests complement those of current faculty.” When you check the department members, they all have the same narrow specialization mainly. My guess is that this is because it is really hard to value a specialist if you are not familiar with the problems that the person worked on.

 

I have a few trips planned in the end of February. I will be away for more than two weeks. I will go for the interview too. When I am back it will be the time to make decision. I will keep you all updated. Thank you again.

 

 

 

P.S. Apathy, I will PM you regarding your questions. It is getting late now.

[CurlyIam]

Oh - and management studies? Please tell me no. Because, dear friends, I assure you that all the marvellous and wonderful management theoreticians have been largely ignored. Except the 'geniuses' who come up with foolish schemes like 're-engineering' which prove to be utterly disastrous in the workplace. Re-engineering guy recanted, even.

 

OMG, Moi, REALLY? I'll run off now and notice the research lab at the university now and tell them to close 'cause I talked to someone who actually knows what the f*ck she's talking about.

 

I've got two degrees in social science disciplines. The greatest lesson they taught me is that modelling is a tremendous intellectual exercise but its prescriptive/predictive capabilities are virtually nonexistent.

 

Anais, what moi is actually saying here is that since she's bee, there and done that, you should go home and start making babies, 'cause your work is useless, you're never gonna "discover" anything, and even if you do pop into something great, it'll still be useless!!!

 

 

 

The trick that no theory will ever teach is how to persuade management to actually do that.

 

Right, moi, absoltely no theory!!!! When did you have those degrees, in 1950 or something? What about the constructivist current about the change? If those were not putting people first, well, geez, you've been reading the wrong book with the right covers!

 

 

If you ladies are going into management studies hoping to change the world, definitely go with the family first because that is one brick-wall-head-beating hope you got.

 

Riiiiiight, I think I'll pack up now and start to bio engineering!!!! And before I do that, I'll write to Harvard Business School and to the rest of the guys to tell them to close too, save some money and why not go to Vegas for that matter!

 

Jesus, some people are so snubbish, it's hilarious

[moimeme]

Snark all you like, Curly. That which takes place in universities is far removed from that which takes place in the workplace. And any of us who have spent enough time in both will tell you that. Theories are just that. They are wonderful intellectual exercises - hell, I love theory. However it still doesn't translate into the practical world.

 

I took conflict theory. It's huge. Thousands of books. Many universities with research departments. By now, if all the theoreticians' theories worked, we should long since have put an end to wars. Or take another example - psychology. Excellent theories - but people still screw up their lives despite the millions of books telling them how not to. What I am saying is that theory is wonderful only if you want to teach and you have to understand that's likely the most you'll accomplish because when you try to translate theory into practice, you deal with humans who often want nothing to do with theory, don't want to learn, and won't do what they learn.

 

How many hundred million people know exactly what to do to lose weight? How many people do it?

 

That, Miss Curlysnarkypants, is my point.

[CurlyIam]

I think theory and practice are intertwained (moi will correct me if I spelled that wrong). Anyway, if theory was all that bad and prctice all that good... how can you explain the exisance of management consulting cabinets?

 

Yes, they're in a bad moment right now (expensive), but as far an I know, they do a terrific job. Exactly because they KNOW the theories and put it into practice best. Better than companies relying on their "experience", anyway.

 

There's a big difference between dieting and applying a theory in an organisation. The first one is that dieting involves one person, yourself. Change in an organisation involves at least a dpartment. Thenyou have the will to make it happen.the plan, the strategy. Changing procedures may block the entire company. Taken one buy one, people may understand the need for change. Putting them together and dealing with it is another story. Accompanying them through change. Dealing with the consequences. when dieting you're dealing with one people, yourself. What's the worst case scenario, you'll go on strike because you don' agree to your self imposed diet?

 

 

Practice cannot exist without theory and theory cannot exist without practice. As long as we have companies and a dynamic environment, we have - there are - a heck of a lot of discovering to do. Improving. Reasoning. Call me naive, I think that having a brain and using it beats puting the "action man" suit on.

 

 

Besides, I think that in your privioust post you're taking about how crappy the HR people are. I'm talking theory of organisation. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

 

Oh, and I don't know what snarky means. But I guess that comming from you it can only be a compliment.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by CurlyIam

 

 

Oh, and I don't know what snarky means. But I guess that comming from you it can only be a compliment.

 

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=snarky&x=0&y=0

 

One entry found for snarky.

Main Entry: snarky

Pronunciation: 'snär-kE

Function: adjective

Etymology: dialect snark to annoy, perhaps alteration of nark to irritate

: CROTCHETY, SNAPPISH

[moimeme]

Management consulting companies make tons of bucks, yes. They sell reorganization plans, yes. Organizations reorganize all the time, yes. Is it usually a good idea? Very often no because these consultants translate the theories without taking into account the specific circumstances of the company. Every organization that I've been in has suffered because of reorganizations. And generally, reorganizations are all about how to ditch a bunch of employees so you can make more money. In the end, that works for a while until the remaining employees are too stressed to be effective, quit, and the organization loses its corporate memory.

 

But it doesn't matter if it works or not. The people who hire the consultants believe it will and so will all the others who hire the consultants. Nobody does the final bit of project management - monitoring the results and reporting back and then tweaking what didn't work.

 

how crappy the HR people are

 

HR only hires. Sometimes trains. HR is not in charge of managing the people. Managers are. And you are making my point beautifully since you seem to be talking about 'management' without any concern for how people need to be treated but until you do that right, none of the theories work.

 

It's practically a scam. That's ok, because the world is full of scams - people selling stuff that never works - again, like diets. People buy diet books and join clubs over and over believing they'll work. They never do but that doesn't stop people believing they will.

 

I'm not saying you'll not find work. You will. You can make pots of money doing it. But don't labour under the impression that you'll improve life for people was all I was saying.

[CurlyIam]

HR also are the one regulating. Writing the procedures. What should and should not be done. What's acceptable.

 

You cannot regulate the behaviour of individuals moi. And that is not a flaw of the management. It's the compromise to living in a society. It's sine qua non. No manager can or should control the behaviour of his subordonates. Because: 1. no one is perfect (everyone makes mistakes) and 2. no one is completely right or completely wrong. It's up to the individuals to adjust to eachother. That's why harrassment cannot be prevented. BEcause controling (or as you call it doing something for the people) implies taking people's rights: the right to interact normaly; the right to establish human contact; the right to have likes and dislikes. And the right to show it.

 

I thought you were talking about the entire organisation as an entity. I hope I'll be able to contribute to the well being of one someday soon (next three months). That I know I can do.

 

 

Fritz, thanks. I'll bookmark it.

[moimeme]

You cannot regulate the behaviour of individuals moi

 

I believe I've been saying that.

 

I thought you were talking about the entire organisation as an entity. I hope I'll be able to contribute to the well being of one someday soon (next three months).

 

Oh! You want to help them make more $. This thread is about how Anais will best be fulfilled as a person. I submit to you that improving bottom lines, while an interesting exercise, is unlikely to leave her as personally fulfilled as will a great relationship. Which was my point from the very beginning of this thread.

[CurlyIam]

Nope, moi. Well being is NOT about money. Is about contributing. Is about adding value to the organisation. Is about helping people which IMO is helping the organisation work better.

 

People are the organisation. The cells.

 

Personally, I think that even more now than before, the ability to do that is paramount. I do not live fearing "1984" scenarios, moi. I believe in personal fullfilment which in the end is what makes a person happy about himself. Not looking at his spouse.

 

At least that's how it is in my case. I think that there are two types of people: those who settle down with a nice/good/not so good/regular job and seekers. The latter need to find whatever it is that makes them happy in order to settle down. I'm placing my money on the above. You say it's family. But it's damn sure that Anais is a seeker.

 

Organisations are not evil, you know? Sometimes you can even coffee for free .

[moimeme]

Curly, let's chat again after you've been doing the work for a while. I'll be real interested in your perspective then. Right now you're talking hypothetical situations. Once you've been in some you'll have a different viewpoint, I'm fairly sure.

 

And my last job had plenty of perqs, including free coffee. Organizations are not evil but nor do they have hearts and that's what people don't get. So people devote their own hearts to organizations and get zip in return. At least in a one-sided relationship, some people get sex. In organizations, they only end up screwed.

 

I believe in personal fullfilment which in the end is what makes a person happy about himself.

 

I agree. What I just said is that aiding an organization's bottom line is unlikely to leave you feeling fulfilled.

 

Not looking at his spouse

 

If that's all you're doing in a relationship, no wonder you're not finding it fulfilling

[CurlyIam]

Thznk you for the nice personal attack, the subject here is not my relationship but what makes a person - Anais fulfilled.

 

I am not trying to make each member of the organisation feel all comfy and create world full of peave and love. But I hope to prevent these evil heartless organisation from disapearing and thus preserve the bad place for people to be in, but which does pay the bills at the end of the month.

 

People come and go at the end of the day. That's how I feel about relationships. Some stay longer, some leave sooner. What you get for yourself, what you can produce, what you actually can create gives sense to ones life. I'm sure that by the time Sigmund Freud got to his lab, all people thought "why the heck talk about sex, it's bad and it's filthy". I think that true passion and dedication and belief in one's subject of study may bring them what they're looking for: making a difference (no, moi, I'm not talking about hidden bank accounts )