Affairs marriages successful?

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

I've gotten involved with married/LTR women. I've never gone further than sex though. I think it's pretty obvious that if they're willing to cheat on their SO of however man years, then they'd do it to you too.

 

You are not a special snowflake.

[ClemsonTigers]

ClemsonTigers, if you are a professional, can you give some advice on how to make these marriages work? My sister had an affair and ended up marrying the guy. We were not happy about it but have tried to be supportive for the sake of her kids. The problem is that they fight so much and so intensely. My sister and her first husband never had fights like this. Her husband's children from his previous marriage hate my sister and will have nothing to do with her. We are worried about her kids because they see all this fighting. Will her kids grow up thinking that cheating is a good option? That is a big concern of my parents.

 

 

Sorry I missed this the other day.

 

I'm not clear. Do they have children together? Were you and sister raised Christians? Are you guys Christians today? If you are, I assume your parents are too.

 

I'll await your answer and see whether you are even still around and interested before continuing.

[Lisanne]

Sorry I missed this the other day.

 

I'm not clear. Do they have children together? Were you and sister raised Christians? Are you guys Christians today? If you are, I assume your parents are too.

 

I'll await your answer and see whether you are even still around and interested before continuing.

 

They don't have any children together, thankfully. I don't know why you ask but, we were raised Christians. My sister not so much anymore. She stopped going to church when her affair began. Our parents pick up the kids sometimes and take them to church.

[runningfar]

I have seen affair marriages work. There's probably more I don't know about because that's certainly not something somebody would bring up to me as a rule, with my ex husband's affair ending our marriage.

 

I've seen not affair marriages fail, too.

 

It's not a good start, but I wouldn't think they were necessarily doomed.

[ClemsonTigers]

They don't have any children together, thankfully. I don't know why you ask but, we were raised Christians. My sister not so much anymore. She stopped going to church when her affair began. Our parents pick up the kids sometimes and take them to church.

 

I ask because I am a Christian counselor. I am a counselor and director of a large family and marriage counseling center which is more a ministry as we are funded by and affiliated with several large Christian churches of varying denominations in a large metropolitan area. My advice to you depends greatly on your faith and your sisters faith. Were they not Christians I would work tirelessly to try to lead them all to the Lord. There are no sins the Lord can't wash away for a new believer, in particular. Once with the Lord, I would consider them a new body and try to help them atone for their sins and rebuild relationships through repentance and forgiveness...starting with their ex-spouses and children. While there is always hope, I have yet to experience a non-Christian couples in an adulterous non-biblical state marriage stepping forward and coming to the Lord. Until then, I would advise you, whether you were Christian or not, to keep your distance. As you can see on this very thread, active adulterers in non-biblical state marriages are quite delusional, dangerous and toxic. You are who you associate with. I would limit your personal exposure, teach you to pray for a hedge of protection before and after contact with these persons, and certainly keep your children away. As for your nieces and nephews, I would advise you rekindle your relationship with her ex-husband and see if you can spend time with them while they are in his custody versus hers.

 

However, because your sister is/was a Christian and you all are too, I have a much tougher stance about these relationships. I have actually been praying about this the past week since reading this thread, reading more about Dr. Harley's extensive work in the field of infidelity and in discussions with a couple colleagues and pastors/ministers. As a matter of explanation, when we get involved with adultery situations we are very proactive with trying to end affairs. For example, 5 or so years ago, we had one man, not unlike your father, who was of considerable means and wanted to help his son in law save his marriage while also being loving and kind to his daughter. I taught him that saving his daughter and her family meant loving her in a much different way. Besides initiating our Church Discipline process (which is rarely effective with adulterers and addicts that are so far from God they don't are). We secretly arranged a last minute 7 day family cruise paid for by the grandfather where unbeknownst to his affair'ing daughter, her husband would be in a connecting room and her siblings along with her parents would be holding an intervention. The first night at dinner Grandfather announced that the family was giving her 7 days to decide. During those 7 days, while conveniently out of contact with the OM, the family was to celebrate, love and embrace this young woman. They were to try to deprogram her much like when we rescue individuals from cults and drug addiction. It was made clear that at the end of the cruise, if she went back to OM and didn't go home to her husband she would be disowned by the family and her ex-husband would assume her seat in the family - - including any potential inheritance. Grandfather was sure to also dictate that any of her siblings that choose to support her after the cruise while she sinned against her husband would also be subject to expulsion from the family. That if they really wanted a relationship with their sister going forward they had 7 days to talk her out of what she was doing and persuade her to go home. Grandfather then told his daughter that her husband was on-board and in adjoining rooms with her if she wanted someone to lean on and help her figure out what she was going to do. It worked perfectly. By the end of the cruise, she was sharing a cabin with her husband, they were bonding and they were all working on a plan of reconciliation. Grandfather called the OM to share the "good new" and exert considerable, borderline illegal, pressure to insure OM disappeared and the couple is thankfully recovered to this day. More typically, we handle our crisis interventions in office or in homes locally, to varying degrees of success. The commitment of the family to following through with our ideas is often our greatest obstacle. The fear of losing contact with a child is real but I try to explain it's better to lose her in this life than forever.

 

Why do I share that story? Because I now believe this would be the right kind of thing for you and your family to do too. That affair marriages, affairages, are illegitimate marriages. They are merely non-biblical state sponsored continuations of affairs. In other words, a state issued marriage certificate is non-biblical and does not magically make adultery OK. Therefore it is to be ignored. Accordingly, your sister remains in an active affair. It is destroying her, her affair "husband" and all the children (as well as hurting their ex-spouses). As a Christian, she already knows the truth and she is in active rebellion to God. Now we can all sit back and pray for her and act like it isn't happening or we can get pro-active and develop a plan to save her/them. Such plan would be most effective if you can get your parents and siblings on board and have a intervention where you all confront her privately and give her the chance to decide. It would be great if you could isolate her from the "husband" for a few days so as to minimize his toxic influence. Your family must stand strong in it's convictions as the adulterous woman is a cunning. If possible involve her ex-husband as he is truly the one the entire family "gave" her to years ago at their real wedding. If she refuses to end her affair (to go and sin no more) than you and your family need to disown her until she does (don't worry, as we are learning here it will happen eventually). Also, if still possible, apologize and embrace her ex-husband such that you can continue relationships with your nieces and nephews.

 

Finally, I am presuming she and her "husband" don't have children together. I am still in prayer about how to handle affairages with children. Should I, as a Christian Counselor TRY to help an affair age, when I have experienced ZERO success doing so, simply because they have a child together and that child deserves my best effort at keeping his/her parents together? Is subjecting the child to a continuing toxic adulterous non-biblical relationship really in the child's best interest? My gut is telling me "no" right now and we are discussing a change of direction going forward in our practice/ministry.

Edited October 9, 2013 by ClemsonTigers

[Lisanne]

Thank you for your post. When I first read this, I was so shocked that I didn't plan to respond. I couldn't get your post off my mind, though, and ended up sharing it with my dad last night. What you suggest is so dramatic, yet makes so much sense. My sister did divorce her ex-husband so the cruise idea would be problematic.

 

I am considering your suggestion to reach out to my BIL and have spoken to my father about your overall idea. He agreed with many of your points but wants to think it over. We are going to talk more about it this weekend. Thanks for taking the time to address our situation.

[hotpotato]

I've gotten involved with married/LTR women. I've never gone further than sex though. I think it's pretty obvious that if they're willing to cheat on their SO of however man years, then they'd do it to you too.

 

You are not a special snowflake.

 

Exactly. If they do it for you, they'll do it to you.

[The dot]

I have seen a few marriages begin as affairs. My sister is one. I have had conversation with 2 others. All divorced now.One said "never marry your affair partner" the other said "nothing good comes from an affair, I really only knew little bits of her till we got married". I used to tell my mother to let my father go so his "affair partners" could get to see the real him. Not the romantic knight in shining armor,SUPERdad with bad wife . Let them get him 24/7 for six months or so and they would see reality!

 

Second marriages tend to have a higher divorce rate. Probably because the common denominator is an emotionally immature person.

.

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but here's my take on it.

 

People have affairs for a variety of reasons. The fact that a person had an affair in the past, doesn't necessarily mean that they'll do it again in a different situation, with a different person. However, I also believe that if *your* relationship starts that way, you have set the bar low in terms of the behaviour you will accept. So you shouldn't be surprised if they do the same thing to you.

[MissBee]

Probably not, but I've seen it discussed in OW/OM forums.

 

I think in most cases it's more to give BS's a hope that the WS/AP marriage won't work in the long run.

 

Because throngs of APs are even getting married in the first place, so BSs need assurance about this startling common phenomenon?

 

It is usually the opposite.

 

Why would a BS care by then if the APs marriage works out in the end? I see no BSs coming here to ask about if we think the AP and MP's marriage will last (as usually there is no marriage anyway and the BSs here are still with their spouses, most of them, or divorced and their spouse is still not with the OW/OM despite being divorced), on the other hand everyday some OW/OM is asking about if anyone knows of any affair successes or post threads trying to figure out if the MP will leave or if the BS is in fact horrible and unloved or some such.

[hotpotato]

Ive read the success rate for married person and the affair partner is about 10%. I believe from Dr. Bonnie Weil. I'm big on self help books lol!

 

Affair relationships are very much like rebound relationships.

 

They dont really know this person. The married person was with two people at a time, so the ap has never had to meet the needs of the married person on his/her own. When the wife leaves reality comes crashing down. Sometimes the ws actually wants to go back to the bs.

 

There are many fantasies.

 

People pick the same people over and over. The same problems from marriage reappear in the new relationship. Sometimes the problems are worse. People need to have a feeling of mastery. We do this in relationships by having a repetition compulsion and putting ourselves in the same situation over and over and over again.

 

Affair relationships like rebound relationships involve people jumping from relationship to another. What's wrong with this? People are not working on themselves and taking inventory of their own faults.

 

At this point, bs probably does not care what happens. Ws has already left a trail of devastation. Trust is gone. Plus, they ws spouse will probably come back after bs has moved on.

 

If ws did come back, they have a good chance of being rejected by bs.

 

Why would bs care? Why do af care if bs cares?

 

Yes, I can even cite some sources.

 

Brenda Shoshanna -Why Men Leave

Dr. Bonnie Weil- Make Up Dont Break Up

[hotpotato]

Because throngs of APs are even getting married in the first place, so BSs need assurance about this startling common phenomenon?

 

.

 

Exactly. Most aps dont even get close to marriage.

[Damia]

Because throngs of APs are even getting married in the first place, so BSs need assurance about this startling common phenomenon?

 

It is usually the opposite.

 

Why would a BS care by then if the APs marriage works out in the end? I see no BSs coming here to ask about if we think the AP and MP's marriage will last (as usually there is no marriage anyway and the BSs here are still with their spouses, most of them, or divorced and their spouse is still not with the OW/OM despite being divorced), on the other hand everyday some OW/OM is asking about if anyone knows of any affair successes or post threads trying to figure out if the MP will leave or if the BS is in fact horrible and unloved or some such.

 

Speaking as a BS and for the BSs I know personally. I would like nothing more than for my xH an AP relationship to die an explosive death.

 

The "soul mate/love of their life" mentality WS/OP seem to have rubs salt into already very open wounds. The nasty taste of feeling unloveable and rejected would hopefully dissipate a little.

I think ( I am sure someone will tell me if I'm not correct ) subsequent relationships the x spouse has would not be quite as hard to deal with?

Because they are then just someone you used too know.

 

I am 3 years out from DD and have very little expectation of my first relationship being the "love of my life" I find it interesting that people that meet as a result of an affair find "their one true love" in such circumstances.

[cocorico]

I see no BSs coming here to ask about if we think the AP and MP's marriage will last

 

Perhaps you missed those threads? I'd happily link if it were not against the TOS.

[cocorico]

Exactly. If they do it for you, they'll do it to you.

 

My father has been happily, faithfully M to his fAP for decades.

 

My MIL has been happily, faithfully M to her fAP even longer.

 

If either of them intend any infidelity in their Ms, they'd better hurry up given their age!

[Lisanne]

My father has been happily, faithfully M to his fAP for decades.

 

cocorico, have you had an affair? Are there many affairs in your family because of the example set by your father? I am sorry to be so nosy but one of our greatest concerns is the example being set by my sister and her AP for her children. Will they grow up to be liars and cheaters, for example?

 

To add to the drama, most of her AP's family will not even allow my sister in their home. ["don't darken our doorstep" attitude ] I don't see how that doesn't have an effect on my niece and nephew. My father has been very torn about the same thing and has come to the conclusion that he is setting a bad example by enabling the affair. He has reached out to my former BIL about getting visitations through him in the future.

 

That may not even be an issue because of recent developments. My sister threw her husband out this morning because he didn't come home last night. He had a visitation with his daughters at their house and didn't make it home until 9 this morning! Who knows how this will play out. They have had horrible fights before but I think this one was different.

[MissBee]

Perhaps you missed those threads? I'd happily link if it were not against the TOS.

 

You can always PM me. That's perfectly within the TOS .

[MissBee]

Exactly. Most aps dont even get close to marriage.

 

It seems to be a non-issue the way I see it, in terms of what BS's think or care about. As I don't see here or in real life throngs of APs marrying, so it's really not this pandemic that even registers on most people's radars. The marriage post-A issue, quite logically, is mostly a concern for those in an affair who want hope as to their futures and what they know to be a slim possibility, as if it were not a slim chance, there wouldn't be threads (started by OW and not BSs) about "Can happy APs come forward" "Did you get married to your AP?" "Did/Will the MM leave?" and all other variations of a similar topic. It's clearly an urgent issue because it is seen as something that isn't a very commonplace thing.

 

So 1. APs marrying doesn't come up very often here and 2.When it comes up it's usually on the part of the OW (not even OM so much) looking for hope and examples or concerned about how to proceed and not on the part of BSs supposedly looking to feel "better" by failures of As turned marriage or what have you. Especially here, the BS population doesn't seem to be too many BSs whose spouse left for the AP actually, who you could then argue are scouring the boards for hope that the OW and WS will crash and burn. Most BSs here are reconciling, some are divorced (and besides two who used to be here whose spouses were with the AP, and not even married to them, and one, her exhusband was trying to get back together with her behind the exOW's back smh) but it's not really a case on LS that the majority of BSs are coming from a position of their spouse left and is marrying the OW....this is not the majority population here.

[Speakingofwhich]

cocorico, have you had an affair? Are there many affairs in your family because of the example set by your father? I am sorry to be so nosy but one of our greatest concerns is the example being set by my sister and her AP for her children. Will they grow up to be liars and cheaters, for example?

 

Good question, Lisanne. My mom (beautiful, brilliant, vivacious, very low self esteem, though) was unfaithful to my dad although he was faithful to her. He was a very good looking charismatic man; was in a position where women made themselves available to him but he never succumbed. Was a man of impeccable integrity.

 

There were multiple girls and multiple boys in our family. The girls have all been involved in As and the boys have not. It has occurred to me that the girls followed mom's example and the boys followed dad's. Maybe simplistic, idk.

 

It's my goal to overcome this example/behavior. So far I haven't seen that goal in my sisters' lives/behaviors.

 

However, we are all unique individuals and I don't think your nieces are necessarily destined to cheat but it may make it easier for them to consider it.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Speakingofwhich
spelling

[Speakingofwhich]

I posted on a previous thread about this topic that I personally knew eight or ten Ms that began as As and only one of them ended in divorce, the others being long term Ms.

 

Since I posted I've continued to think of Ms I know of that resulted from As, maybe fifteen or twenty I know of by now. This doesn't include celebrity Ms. Can still only think of one that has ended in D after fifteen years.

 

Before anyone comments that I must know a lot of immoral people, most of these couples are not close friends, just sitches I know of. And I know of hundreds of marriages that didn't begin in As that haven't ended in Ds so far!

 

One M I've thought of since hit really close to home. My exH didn't marry his A partner (from our M). Before our D was complete he dumped her and began to date a different woman, whom he married a couple of months after our D was over. Maybe these were both As since they both began during our M but I didn't consider the second one to be an A since he had already left me by the time it began.

 

Anyway, he M the second one, cheated on her and married the A partner he cheated on her with. They are still together more than a decade later.

 

I know that they have had problems and have been to MC for the problems; however, he and I had also been to MC for problems that led to D and our M didn't begin with an A.

 

It seems to me that people who have As and marry their A partner and end up divorcing the A partner are often just more likely not to tolerate a M that isn't working than people who may be in a long term M that didn't begin with an A and stay together though unhappy because I know plenty of people in long term Ms that are unhappy and just have never left the M. Some of whom have never cheated on each other and some of whom have cheated on each other.

 

IMHO from my observation once a person has gone through a D they are more likely to choose to D in an unhappy second M whether or not an A was involved in either of their Ds or not.

 

I am a fOW and my exMM and I had discussed that if either of us was to cheat when we M that we would divorce. Both of us have been M just once. But both agree we wouldn't tolerate infidelity in our M to each other. And I'm certain both of us are serious about that.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Speakingofwhich
clarity

[hotpotato]

My father has been happily, faithfully M to his fAP for decades.

 

My MIL has been happily, faithfully M to her fAP even longer.

 

If either of them intend any infidelity in their Ms, they'd better hurry up given their age!

 

Exceptions dont prove rules!

[Lisanne]

 

However, we are all unique individuals and I don't think your nieces are necessarily destined to cheat but it may make it easier for them to consider it.

 

 

Thanks for answering, Speakingofwhich. I agree with your thoughts. My sister's kids are living in an environment where deceit is acceptable so they have no reason to question those practices. If you are a thief, will your kids grow up believing stealing is a good option? What will my sister say when my niece or nephew decides to lie to her ? I wonder about that. My sister has taught those kids it is acceptable to lie as long as it's about something that makes you happy. I don't know if my BIL can overcome that kind of crazy role modeling.

 

As far as affair marriages, I can't think of a single one other than my sisters. I know of people who had affairs but none of them got married.

[ClemsonTigers]

That may not even be an issue because of recent developments. My sister threw her husband out this morning because he didn't come home last night. He had a visitation with his daughters at their house and didn't make it home until 9 this morning! Who knows how this will play out. They have had horrible fights before but I think this one was different.

 

This would be the perfect time for you and your father to do an intervention. Your father needs to be strong and be willing to lose contact with his daughter for awhile. Losing a sibling isn't usually that big a deal to a wayward, but losing the love, contact and financial support of a father is a huge deal. There is nothing as powerful as telling a cheating wife that she's in jeopardy of losing her inheritance. Now is the opportune time to strike while her faux "husband" is out of the house.

 

 

Speaking of which, we had two interventions yesterday. Based upon our conversations here I "nominated" two couples whom were in known affair marriages for Church Discipline at one of my congregations. One couple the husband broke down and said he'd lost his all his family and friends to be with his affair wife and she'd blown through almost all his money AND then cheated on him last year. This was the last straw. He was not willing to give up God for her so he was more than willing to separate himself from her and work with us towards a Godly repentant individual recovery. He'll need to go through the paperwork for a state divorce but as far as we were concerned...he is a single man as his affair marriage wasn't legitimate. He's even signed up for an upcoming Baptism. The wife, not so much. She stormed out angry as the dickens that we rocked her entitled boat. The other couple was mad. We were silent as they revealed themselves to be exactly the problem we have now figured out they are. Of course, they couldn't believe how judgmental we were being, which is kind of ironic. Hopefully they'll be back for Godly direction. God is big. Honestly, we don't want to lose these individuals, we just asked them to end their affairs or face further Church Discipline that COULD result in them being asked not to come back.

[ClemsonTigers]

So wait. You're saying that these two couples are married (in the eyes of the law) but you and you're supposed church have chosen to make examples of them to the point of shunning them from your church? Wow, you take "gods love and grace" to a whole different level.

 

 

There is no "shunning". How many Amish posters do these forums get????

 

This particular congregation is Methodist. I am currently in meetings encouraging all my affiliated churches to follow suit. Of course, it will be up to each Church whether to accept affair marriages as legitimate marriages or as "overt sexually immorality" which infects the body of Christ. Some may do it on a case by case basis as not all affair marriages are created equal. For example, a betrayed and abandoned wife that has to wait a year to divorce in Canada isn't going to be held accountable for a relationship she began prior to finalizing the divorce. I believe we are speaking exclusively about relationships built upon betrayal, lies and sexual immortality.

 

I assume you are not a Christian if you are unaware of the concept of Church Discipline. It is not vengeful. We want and wanted nothing more than to help our brothers and sisters in Christ turn from sin. Protecting the congregation would only come later on if and when they refused to repent. We have not given up on the second couple yet.

 

To keep it simple, here's a link to the wikipedia page on the subject:

 

Church discipline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[William]

As guidance, the thread starter asks 'Are affair marriages successful?', meaning are the marriages which start as affairs successful, presumably healthy for the long term.

 

Then, they offer amongst other citation, an assertion:

 

"While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment."

 

Let's confine the discussion to personal anecdotes of affair marriages being successful or not and the assertion and supporting statements offered by an internet 'relationship expert'. Members are welcomed to start their own threads, for free, regarding their personal situations and seek advice and support regarding those situations, if so required beyond simply supplying an anecdote. This forestalls thread-jacks. Additionally, religious perspectives on affair marriages are welcomed in relevant threads in our Spirituality and Religious Beliefs forum. Please discuss.

Edited October 15, 2013 by William
Added link

[ClemsonTigers]

Thank you William. I stay away from the meta discussion about Church Discipline on this thread. I also think this means if Lisanne wants help with her situation she should start her own thread asking for help breaking up her sister's affair age. Please let me know as I'm not always around. Got to pay the bills.

 

Update. The husband from the second couple we confronted about their illegitimate affair marriage has contacted the church leadership about moving forward with ending his affair. Turns out he too is/was miserable and guilt ridden. His kids from his prior marriage are all older and exhibiting all the signs of a young adults from broken homes. His only son drop out of college and is in jail pending charges for dealing drugs. He's looking to reconcile with his children and atone for his sins against them and his ex-wife. It's really turning out to be a glorious thing. Don't know about the OW/affair wife but we'll keep praying for her.

 

How does that relate to "Are Affair Marriages Successful?"? Because it is confirming the premise that even the affair marriages that APPEAR successful aren't really. We had no idea these couples weren't happy (though I had a good idea...because it appears inevitable). We knew only that they were "Affairages" and someone needed to guide them. This was new ground for us. As a Family and Marriage Therapist I don't define success as simply staying married no matter how miserable and I have yet to see or hear of an affair marriage (built on betrayal) that was truly successful. Sure there might be a secret one in our practice, congregations and real lives here or there that do a good job appearing happy, but when put to the test, they apparently all fail scrutiny.

 

I will try to keep this thread updated on our future success busting up these destructive affair ages as their tenuous nature, in my opinion, is a testament to just how unsuccessful they truly are.