Abusive wife for the 5th time should I stay or leave?

[ferrari121]

URGENT ADVICE ABOUT ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WHAT TO DO??? WILL SHE CHANGE?

 

I been married for three years and in those three years I been separated for 5 times and in those 5 times my wife has insulted me, name calling, insulted my parents and i do not mean she telling me stuff about them, she insulting my parent in person. it has got to the point that the last two times she has slap me, scratch me leaving me a scar on my arm. Every time she does this after a couple of days she tries to call me, text me and got in her knees saying she is sorry and she will never do that again. and I always fall for that and even this time i started falling for that like now we text and talk. is this just a manipulation of hers to get me back or will she be saying the truth about changing. we are young i am 24 she is 23 and I don't drink, smoke or even go out with friends because she says i will leave her by her self and that's bad. I even work full time and went to school full time to get my bachelors degree to provide a better life for us. we have no kids and that is why I am asking this question should I keep talking to her and start forgiving her or should I just get out of the relationship before is to late. Also sometimes I feel like I have fear of being lonely and thinking that other woman will not want to be with me and not able to be on another relationship later on is this normal?

 

Right now I feel really confused about if she really loves me or what is going on because I start to remember that allot of the times she will be sweet to me, cook for me, even saying things that will lift me up and make me feel about my self. but then if i said or did something that she did not agreed or liked about the situation she will start cursing at me, insulting me and start talking bad about my parents and brother. I just dont know what to do. and now that we have talk three times she has gone from crying and begging to saying "well i cant wait all my life you need to decide if you think you cant forgive me let me know so we can both move on". I am really confused I need some really advise PLEASE

[Grumpybutfun]

OP:

I think you know the answer to this in your gut since you have one foot out the door. Your gut is right on, it is time to leave. Physical abuse is never okay and no sorries in the world will ever make up for it. Verbal abuse is even worse because it messes with your head. Also, telling you she can't be alone so you have no time for hobbies or friends is just odd and controlling. LisaLee is right, she has crushed your self-esteem, making you doubt your own worth. That is cruel.

 

You know you must leave and get a divorce. She is toxic and her behavior will not change until she wants it to, and since she is getting everything she wants out of the relationship, it never will. Past behavior is the true compass of future behavior.

 

Man, sorry you are going through this,

Grumps

[FitChick]

Get out before she gets pregnant or you will be royally screwed and trapped.

[M30USA]

OP,

 

I have lived this all (and worse). I stayed 5 years. I had children with her. If you want to read my story, do a search. No, she won't change. She won't change because, as is the case with abusers, control is more important to them than you are. Sorry to put it blunt, bud. I lived in denial too.

[whichwayisup]

Get out of this marriage asap before this does damage to you.

 

She will not change because this is who she is. An abuser. A cruel person who has issues and she takes it out on you.

 

This is a bad situation for you and it'll continue to get worse. You know this which is why you know deep down it's time to move on and never look back.

[Mr. Lucky]

I been married for three years and in those three years I been separated for 5 times

How did you survive courtship and engagement and why the decision to marry?

 

Mr. Lucky

[CC12]

is this just a manipulation of hers to get me back or will she be saying the truth about changing.

 

I bet she believes she's telling the truth about changing. She might really want to change. But it's not that easy. She is either a person who think it's okay to treat others that way, or she's a person who cannot control herself when she's upset. These are behaviors that are not easy to fix. Simply promising she won't do it again isn't going to magically make it happen. I mean, look really closely at this:

 

and now that we have talk three times she has gone from crying and begging to saying "well i cant wait all my life you need to decide if you think you cant forgive me let me know so we can both move on".

 

She's already giving you an ultimatum? She was the one who was a dick to you and was begging your forgiveness. I think this shows that she doesn't value or understand the pain she's caused you. This is a really bad sign.

 

She's got some problems that she needs to work on, for sure. But you should not stick around while she's working on them. Her issues are too damaging to your own well being. Just get out now.

[Oberfeldwebel]

You can't control anyone but yourself. Ask yourself, is this the life that you want? If not then change it, take control of your life. If you have had enough, then take care of your legal and financial obligations and move on. If you still want to try, then you need to set boundaries and enforce them. If she said untrue things about other people, then she should apologize to them. I don't know her, so you have to make these decisions, but I will tell you that the best estimation of future behavior is past behavior.

[urdone]

They never change, serial killers never change, it's not "something they do", it's "what they are", it's encoded in their DNA, "sorry" is just a meaningless 5 letter word unless its back up with action, how nany times have you seen this cycle repeat itself, how is that empty 5 letter word working out for you!?. Sorry mate but I did that dance with ex Ms crazy for 10 long soul destroying years, they will just beat you down to the point you'll question your own sanity. Take it from those that have been there and have the scars to prove it, THIS WILL NEVER, NEVER, NEVER CHANGE, don't walk away boy, RUN LIKE HELL!.

[M30USA]

OP,

 

The person who said abusers have it "in their genes" is correct. The other half of the story is they ALSO probably observed abuse growing up. This could easily make you feel sorry for them but don't do that; they feed off people like you and it only makes things worse.

[Radu]

OP, the fact that she gave you an ultimatum shows she will never change, that all else is just pure manipulation to get back in your good graces for a while.

I believe that for a split second she actually believes what she promises, the ultimatum is her self-defense to the possibility that you will walk away ... it's her way of protecting her ego from what she fears, that you will walk away this one time.

You have a rare opportunity, you get to see what is the most important thing for her, her ego, her life ... it's a selfish relationship where she gets all the power, all the control, and you are the manservant.

 

There are many ppl in this thread who have told you what your future holds, so i'll add this.

For how long an abused individual stays in a relationship is a function of their self-esteem. If it's high, he's gone when he realizes what kind of an individual he deals with.

If it's low, the abuser will sever the relationship, usually after more than a decade together because he has had enough.

In your situation [3yrs and 5 walkouts], i'd say you have low self-esteem, but not that low since you are questioning her version of reality right now.

 

In the past, during these questionings, you gave power to her [that's why she isolated you from your friends as well], she expects you to give her further power right now ... hence the ultimatum.

Do the right thing and leave now.

And whatever you do, don't have sex with her. Sex can be used as a weapon, especially since she can get knocked up [she's already married] to keep you hooked.

[GuyInLimbo]

Separated FIVE times and you need to ask people if this is a healthy, long-lasting relationship? She's abusive? Is she gonna change? You need a Dr. Phil wake-up call here, pal.

[jimloveslips]

Separated FIVE times and you need to ask people if this is a healthy, long-lasting relationship? She's abusive? Is she gonna change? You need a Dr. Phil wake-up call here, pal.

 

Ditto

 

i think both your wife and you have mental health issues - you really need to seek professional help.

[M30USA]

OP, the fact that she gave you an ultimatum shows she will never change, that all else is just pure manipulation to get back in your good graces for a while.

 

This is exactly right. My ex wife, after beating me, actually gave me an ultimatum to either reconcile (with not even an apology given) or she would divorce me. Can you imagine the brazenness of these people? They literally beat you, don't even apogize, then give YOU an ultimatum? That's why it's called a personality disorder. It's pathological and not based on reality.

Edited October 7, 2013 by M30USA

[Radu]

I agree, i avoided calling it a PD [though there are strong signs to investigate it at least] because if the OP mentions to her that he thinks she has a PD [god help him if he actually says NPD or BPD], she will 'flare' up in terms of abuse.

 

The fear of loss and the push-pull is quite an indicator tbh.

[littlejaz]

RUN, get out as fast as you can. She will not change, but you sure will. Your self esteem will continue to go down, until you reach rock bottom. You must protect yourself and get out.

 

If she wanted to change, she would seek professional help on her own. This is her problem, not yours. If you stay, she will eventually convince you that it is your problem, if you didn't... (fill in the blank) then she wouldn't ....(get upset and/or abusive).

 

GET OUT NOW and yes you will find someone else. Someone that loves and values you as you should be loved and valued. Don't let her steal that from you.

[ferrari121]

Yes we did try counseling all of the five times we were separated and yes she changes but only for 3 or 4 months then she stops going to counseling and starts in her old ways again. during this month that we been separated we been talking a few times and that is why I am so confused because now she is so sweet and is promising all this stuff and that she has change allot in this month but I started talking to her about what she did and how the relationship was affected and if we ever get back how the marriage was going to change like her being different with me and my parents. we have talk about this subject three times this month that we been separated and those three times she has told "you know what why keep trying I am being sweet to you and trying to show you that I change and you don't believe me so lets just end this I want the divorce" then we stop talking and the next day she calls me and tells me I am sorry is just that is hard for me. So after the third time she did this I have not talk to her and I don't know what to do???

[pteromom]

Right now I feel really confused about if she really loves me or what is going on because I start to remember that allot of the times she will be sweet to me, cook for me, even saying things that will lift me up and make me feel about my self. but then if i said or did something that she did not agreed or liked about the situation she will start cursing at me, insulting me and start talking bad about my parents and brother. I just dont know what to do. and now that we have talk three times she has gone from crying and begging to saying "well i cant wait all my life you need to decide if you think you cant forgive me let me know so we can both move on". I am really confused I need some really advise PLEASE

 

You have to separate her FEELINGS for you from her BEHAVIOR. It is possible that she truly does love you. It's also possible that she isn't capable of a happy, mutually satisfying, compromising adult relationship.

 

If you are in a relationship where it is impossible to solve problems because she flies off the handle and gets irrational every time something doesn't go her way, there is simply no way to build a solid marriage in that situation.

 

She needs therapy and anger management and much more than you can give her. You can love her, but love doesn't fix people.

[M30USA]

You have to separate her FEELINGS for you from her BEHAVIOR. It is possible that she truly does love you. It's also possible that she isn't capable of a happy, mutually satisfying, compromising adult relationship.

 

If you are in a relationship where it is impossible to solve problems because she flies off the handle and gets irrational every time something doesn't go her way, there is simply no way to build a solid marriage in that situation.

 

She needs therapy and anger management and much more than you can give her. You can love her, but love doesn't fix people.

 

Best post so far.

[Downtown]

Ferrari, I agree with Radu that the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal (and physical) abuse, lack of impulse control, rapid flips between adoring you and hating you, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and, to a much lesser extent, Narcissistic PD. I also agree with Radu that, if you decide that your W has most BPD traits at a strong level (i.e., is a BPDer), it would be very unwise to tell her. If she is a BPDer, she would project the accusation back onto you, with the result that she would be absolutely convinced YOU are the one having strong BPD traits.

 

I caution that you cannot determine whether your W's BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis.

 

I also caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W has BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she has most BPD traits at a strong level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs (there is a world of difference between diagnosing her issues and simply spotting warning signs).

In those three years I been separated for 5 times.

This push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle is another hallmark of a relationship with a BPDer. In such relationships, the couple typically go through many breakup/reconciliation cycles before finally separating for good. A recent poll at BPDfamily.com found that 60% of such relationships have 3 or more BU/Recon cycles before separating permanently. A third of them had 6 or more such breakup cycles -- and a fourth had 10 or more such breakup cycles -- before separation was permanent.

Every time she does this after a couple of days she tries to call me, text me and got in her knees saying she is sorry and she will never do that again. and I always fall for that.

You are describing the pull-you-back phase of the push-pull cycle I mentioned above. The main reason this cycle exists is that the BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other fear. You are always in a lose-lose situation because there is no midpoints position where you can safely avoid triggering both fears. That Goldilocks position does not exist with people having strong BPD traits. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for it with my exW.

 

The way the cycle works is that, when you draw close to a BPDer for intimacy, she will quickly start feeling engulfed and suffocated by your strong personality. She therefore will create an argument -- out of thin air -- to push you away. This is why most arguments with a BPDer are over such trivial issues that neither of you can recall what they were about several days later.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, she eventually will start feeling a strong fear of abandonment. She therefore will do sweetness and love bombing to draw you back close to her, whereupon the push/pull cycle begins all over again.

The last two times she has slap me, scratch me leaving me a scar on my arm.

Because BPDers have little control over their emotions, it is not surprising that physical abuse (of the spouses) is strongly associated with having strong BPD traits. For example, a 1993 Canadian study of men battering their wives found that about half of them had BPD. Roger Melton describes those study results at Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net.

 

Similarly, a 2009 study of male wife-batterers found that 40% of them were associated with BPD and Antisocial PD -- and another 35% had "adult anxious attachment orientation," which is one of the BPD traits. See ingentaconnect A Latent Classification of Male Batterers.

Right now I feel really confused about if she really loves me or what is going on.

If you've actually been living with a BPDer for 3 years, consider yourself lucky to only feel "confused." Living with a woman who flips back and forth between adoring you and devaluing you is extremely disorienting -- so much so that it is common for the abused partners of BPDers to feel like they may be going crazy. Indeed, of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they are going crazy.

Should I just get out of the relationship before is to late?

Yes, if you've described the situation accurately. I agree with Lisa, M30, Radu, and the many other members advising you to leave. Regardless of whether your W has strong BPD traits -- you are in a toxic relationship that is harmful to both of you, especially to you because you are the target of repeated verbal and physical abuse.

We did try counseling all of the five times we were separated.... she changes but only for 3 or 4 months then she stops going to counseling and starts in her old ways again.

My experience is that, if your W has strong BPD traits, MC likely will be a total waste of time until she has had several years of intensive, weekly therapy from a psychologist. The reason is that a BPDer's issues go far beyond the simple lack of communication skills that MCs typically are trained to address.

 

The good news is that there are several different excellent treatment programs available (in larger cities) for BPDers. The bad news, however, is that it is rare for a BPDer to stay in such programs long enough to make a real difference in her behavior. By "rare," I mean that perhaps only 1 in 100 high functioning BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength needed to be successful in those programs. Moreover, I agree with LittleJaz's statement that "If she wanted to change, she would seek professional help on her own."

I don't know what to do???

Like Grumpy (post #3), I suspect you know exactly what you should do -- i.e., file for divorce -- at an intellectual level. Convincing the intuitive emotional part of your mind, however, is far harder to accomplish. It takes time to close the gap between your "adult" logic and the intuitive "child" in your mind, thereby converting the abstract knowledge into wisdom (i.e., into something you know to be true at a gut level).

 

Hence, if you are still reluctant to walk away permanently, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a professional's candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with.

 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psychologist, you read about BPD warning signs to see if most of them sound very familiar. Although you are not capable of determining whether your W has the full-blown disorder, you should find it easy to spot the red flags for BPD if you take a little time to learn those warning signs. There is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde, and temper tantrums.

 

An easy place to start reading about these warning signs is my post in Rebel's thread at Crazy I think but I love her anyway. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, Ferrari.

[bubbaganoosh]

What do you think the outcome would have been if you hit her 5 five different times in your marriage. Tell you what. You would have been in jail and force to take anger management classes. Your problem is that you let the woman continue the onslaught and did nothing. Ok. maybe the first time you might have let it go but when you got a repeat performance the second time, you had a choice. Throw her out and if she wouldn't leave, get in the car and go to the police station, filed charges and let her suffer her own fate.

 

My Ex wife has a girlfriend who has a bad temper and has a habit of taking a swing at her husband and connecting. It happened twice and he warned her not to do it again. Sure enough down the road she did it again. He called the cops, she was arrested, charged, and he divorced her and got custody of their son.

 

You might be bigger than her, stronger than her but that doesn't mean you have to be her personal punching bag, but you let her do it. Your fault. As they say, what was once a vice is now a habit and it's a bad habit that she refuses to break. Get away from this woman and if needed, file a complaint and get a RO. Do not let her talk her into getting back together because you only asking for trouble.

[bubbaganoosh]

By the way. Which is worse. Being alone or being abused. There's a difference between being alone and lonely. I know what I would do. Besides what kind of a relationship do you think you have? it's not a relationship, it's a joke and you better open your eyes and see it for what it is or the next time your eyes will be swollen shut.

[ferrari121]

Thanks DOWNTOWN after reading your post I did some research and yes you are correct she does show allot of signs of strong BPD and I guess I just have to admit that this relationship is not going to work. I am not going to lie I love her allot and what kills me that I start to remember the good times when we were good but then again there is more bad times than good. I guess one of the fears I have is the "what if" like what if I let her go and with the next guy she will change and I miss on that. I think that is what is making me not take the decision and because like I say I do love her. Also and is true like someone said in this thread the problems started way before getting married I just never wanted to let go because even though it will be her fault and she will insult me at that time I would be the one who will come back to her and ask her to get back together.

[Downtown]

I love her allot and what kills me that I start to remember the good times when we were good but then again there is more bad times than good.

Ferrari, for excessive caregivers like you and me, walking away from a BPDer is very difficult. When a BPDer is being good, she is very VERY good -- expressing great vulnerability ("catnip" to us caregivers) and making us feel so very needed.

 

Walking away from that adoration -- even though she hands it out on fewer and fewer occasions -- is like trying to give up heroine. We want those marvelous highs and are willing to put up with the painful lows just to experience one more high with her.

I guess one of the fears I have is the "what if" like what if I let her go and with the next guy she will change and I miss on that.

The chance of that happening is very remote, perhaps 1 in 100 as I noted earlier. And, even if it did happen, it would take many years of weekly therapy with a good psychologist for her to achieve such a change. What a BPDer has to do in therapy is to retrain her mind in how to think.

 

That is, she must undo the thinking process she's used since early childhood and replace it with more mature ego defenses. Toward that end, she must learn how to manage her emotions, how to do self soothing, how to remain "in the moment" instead of escaping into daydreams, how to avoid black-white thinking, how to tolerate ambiguities and uncertainties in interpersonal relationships, how to perceive "object constancy" in other people, and how to intellectually challenge her intense feelings (instead of accepting them as truths and facts). Sadly, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength necessary to be willing to do that training.

[M30USA]

My Ex wife has a girlfriend who has a bad temper and has a habit of taking a swing at her husband and connecting. It happened twice and he warned her not to do it again. Sure enough down the road she did it again. He called the cops, she was arrested, charged, and he divorced her and got custody of their son.

 

Same exact thing happened in my case, only she managed to still get primary custody. My lawyer said it was because she was stay at home mom (main caregiver) for duration of children's lives, so the judge evidently believed her stay at home role outweighed her violence/assault.

 

What state does your friend live in?

Edited October 10, 2013 by M30USA