I feel like I have to give this one more try

[melissag]

Help. I am so confused between 180 and NC and (as my IC says), share my feelings. I have so much clarity now about a lot of things. I don't want to beg my H to give it another try (I do have a small amount of dignity left that I would like to keep), but I feel like our lines of communication are gone. And I don't know if I can just leave it like that. NC other than the kids. It feels like playing a game. And, as my IC pointed out, I'm being very passive here and have no voice.

 

H has been perfectly nice to me. We hang out as a family. We hang out just the two of us. It's just that big elephant in the room. I can't touch him. I can't talk to him (about any of this, or really anything else about myself). It's really hard. I feel like we have spent 13 years together (and 4 before that as friends), and I'm not sure how I can just play this 180/NC game forever. It feels like I am dishonoring all the time we spent together. (As an aside, the one time I have broken my rules a little was when I asked about being able to touch him, and he offered it up. 6 hours of that, and then bam! back to D-land. Does that mean that he cracked a little, but then strengthened his resolve again, or he just really wanted some human affection, or what?)

 

Yes, I realize that much of it is about me getting myself back, and I get that. And I want that. But a lot of it is for him, right? To show him. Ha! You've made your bed, you're going to lie in it! You're not my friend. You're a jackass, so you can go ahead and take your freedom, and see how great it feels (sarcastic). It just feels wrong. I take a fair amount of responsibility for the state of our marriage, and I can't just say "eff you, a.s.s.h.o.l.e.," even though he is making a unilateral decision to trash our family. I guess I am just hoping/praying that this isn't really him, but I can get coax out the real him?

 

Maybe I am just too effing weak and stupid. But I don't know how I am supposed to love someone for this long and have a best friend for this long, and then when he decides he wants a D, just say OK, bye.

 

I'm not talking about pathetically begging and pleading. But I do have a couple of points I'd like to make. But I feel like I can't. But if I don't, then I am just letting him walk out the door without even trying.

 

??? Help.

 

ETA: the crux of our issues was that he (and I, though I don't think he sees that part, since he is fixated on himself at the time) felt like he wasn't valued enough - like he would never be good enough. Kind of ridiculous that we both felt that way. Sigh. Anyway, point being, if I just say OK and let him walk out the door, aren't I just proving that he's not valued? Blech. This is all so confusing.

[TrappedWanderer]

Hey Melissa,

 

Not much advise, as I feel largely the same. Hard to give up your best friend and confidant just like *that*. The thing that helped me, though, was to realize as much as I had to say-valid points, not condescending or all on him-he didn't want to hear it.

 

We could talk about anything else, no problem. I wanted to help him, help us, work on things together-but HE wasn't either ready or capable of listening to it or really taking it in.

 

Do you think your husband would listen with an open mind? Or do you think he would just listen and get mad at you for even bringing it up, for expressing yourself?

 

If you really really think he'd be open, *maybe* it's worth a shot. I totally get that there's a lot of good history there. But if you take that shot, just be prepared that he might react badly-and man, is that pain awful.

 

Just my two cents. Keep on keepin on...one way or another, you'll get through this. (At least that's what I keep trying to convince myself of, ha)

[melissag]

 

Do you think your husband would listen with an open mind? Or do you think he would just listen and get mad at you for even bringing it up, for expressing yourself?

 

If you really really think he'd be open, *maybe* it's worth a shot. I totally get that there's a lot of good history there. But if you take that shot, just be prepared that he might react badly-and man, is that pain awful.

 

Thanks, TW. I sometimes think this would be easier if he had just up and left all at once, and never talked to me again. That way I wouldn't have had any slim hope left. I know from an outside perspective, I shouldn't have any hope, since he has told me he wants a D, and that he will not change his mind. But he is still here, he is nice, we have fun, it's weird.

 

I think that he will be open to communicating, but 99.9% likely nothing will change his mind - so yes, that will probably hurt. But then maybe I can really get it and start to accept and move on? Sigh. I don't know. I just feel too awful the way it is now.

 

Since about three weeks ago, there are no easy decisions. I'm not even able to figure out which option sucks the least.

[UpwardForward]

I can understand women doing the big 'NC' thing w an illicit destructive R that's not meant to be .. but why were you advised to do NC w an estranged husband?

Edited October 16, 2013 by UpwardForward

[melissag]

I can understand women doing the big 'NC' thing w an illicit destructive R that's not meant to be .. but why were you advised to do NC w an estranged husband?

 

Well, not so much NC, but only talk to H about the kids, etc. As in, don't be his friend. (I was planning on this after he moved out.)

[UpwardForward]

Well, not so much NC, but only talk to H about the kids, etc. As in, don't be his friend. (I was planning on this after he moved out.)

 

Just be real with him or do what you wish, then.

 

Imo, your relationship and communication with your husband is just as mine was - before and after he left, for another. He would say it was him, and not me. And swing from indifference to being nice - then back to indifference.

[Mr. Lucky]

But if I don't, then I am just letting him walk out the door without even trying.

The reality (and I get why this is hard to accept) is that you can try your ass off and, unless he participates, it won't do any good. If he's not open or receptive - and it sounds like he isn't - then your "points" are just going to be more noise. Again, this is why the 180 focuses on you. Your life. Your future. With or without him, things will move forward. You'd benefit considerably from being ahead of the curve...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Suzanne L]

Hi Melissa

 

I understand where you are coming from, as I have been there! I begged, pleaded, pointed out the good points of our marriage, etc. It didn't help. The thing is, with a walk away spouse, the more pursuit you do, the more pressure they feel, and any form of pressure on your part will push them away EVEN farther!

 

IMO your best chance is to be independent, and focus on keeping busy and doing your own thing. It is good for yourself, and also your best bet for a possible reconciliation.

 

Check out this link called Last Resort Technique, it contains great information.

 

How To Prevent a Divorce ? The Last Resort Technique | Divorce Busting

 

take care,

Suzanne

[Misadventure]

MG..

 

Have you ever talked to him at all about him making the decision to leave.. even when it happened? If you did talk to him about it when he left or made the decision to leave, then he knows how you feel.

 

Going over it again and telling him you want things to work if he already knows will be putting you at square one since he may want to be single...it will push him further away. If he already made up his mind, it says alot.

 

But if you never talked to him and had the BIG discussion then do it. Just don't beg...it hurts you.

 

If you need to purge, get angry and vent to him.. do it. But only do it once and get it all out. ALL of it. Then move forward and do the 180 FOR YOU.

[Suzanne L]

I agree with Misadventure, that if you haven't talked at all with him about anything yet, then you should, and be sure not to beg or plead, etc. For closure, you will want to hear what he has to say, and his reasons, and you want him to know how you feel.

 

If you have already talked to him about everything, then simply tell him that you would still like to work on the marriage, but if he doesn't then that's fine. And leave it at that!!!

 

That way he will know how you feel and it leaves the door open for possible reconciliation. You won't want to do anything now that would dampen your chances at reconciliation in the future, so be careful what you say at this point.

 

What I like to do when dealing with H now is have a 24-48 hour rule, where if I feel really strongly about telling H something, I wait a day or 2 before bringing it up. You could even ask us for advice here on the forum. That way you have time to cool off and think about things before saying something you might regret.

[Mr. Lucky]

 

Check out this link called Last Resort Technique, it contains great information.

 

How To Prevent a Divorce ? The Last Resort Technique | Divorce Busting

 

take care,

Suzanne

 

Melissa, really good advice. Here's their feedback on the stage you're in now:

 

Step 1 – Stop the Chase

 

First, you need to stop doing anything that your spouse might look at as pursuing behavior. Here are some examples of behavior that I would consider “pursuing.”

 

• Frequent phone calls
  
• Begging your spouse to reconsider
  
• Pointing out all the good in your marriage
  
• Writing letters
  
• Following your mate around the house
  
• Encouraging talk about the future
  
• Soliciting help from family members
  
• Asking for reassurances
  
• Buying gifts/flowers
  
• Trying to schedule dates together
  
• Spying on your spouse
  

Hope this helps...

 

Mr. Lucky

[melissag]

OK, so we talked last night. I just wanted to talk to him like the person I married, not Mr. Robo-No-Emotion guy. We talked about what went wrong, and that right now he just really feels like he lost himself in our marriage (the truth be told, I did too, which I told him), and he needs to be on his own and get himself back. We each did apologize for some of the things and for hurting each other. We agreed that we are great together in many ways. He just doesn't think that it worked for us to be married, but that he really wants to be good friends because we were friends before we dated, and that was great. He said he thinks that as friends we care more about each other whereas we took each other for granted when we were married. I said that I do see a way it would work as a marriage, but that I understand what he is saying, and though getting a D would not be my choice, I get it, and I will respect what he needs to do. I might have to be a little clearer about this at some point that I love him enough to let him go, I'm not sure if I got that across, but I did say that I understand and that I do not want him to be unhappy with me.

 

OK, now is where I got flogged. Then we had sex. Sex was one of the things missing in our relationship and that really hurt him. (I guess it hurt me too, even though I was the one who was resisting - just a big vicious cycle of pushing each other away - ugh.) Seriously. It was really good sex. There was no way I was passing up that opportunity. I know all the reasons not to - it will take me longer to move on, blah blah. I recognize I am crazy emotional and not making clear headed decisions, but this just seemed right to me. Yes, maybe I am putting off accepting this and dealing with the grief. But I guess I will be forced to do that once he actually moves out. What's the difference whether I deal with it now or later? And tell me if this is ridiculous - but if one of the issues in our marriage was lack of intimacy, and there is still no intimacy when he leaves, how is he going to miss me?

 

OK, go ahead. Tell me I am a crazy dumb ass. (BTW there is no chance of pregnancy here and he has not been with anyone else, so you can leave out those comments and just tell me what an idiot I am for other reasons.)

 

ETA: I have done no pursuing behavior, Mr. L . . . unless you include sex as pursuing? Yikes. It was initiated by him, though.

[UpwardForward]

There's two ways to look at it imo.

 

(1) As your H he is entitled to intimacy w his W.

 

(2) I don't think he should be rewarded with love and intimacy since he is not wishing to be M anymore. Love is what's bestowed when there is love in return and w the two sharing .. and of one accord in the R.

[melissag]

ummmmmm. GUILTY!

 

I did too so don't beat yourself up to bad! LOL!

 

Oh well.....just as long as you don't become his "booty call" after he moves. I had the same mind set (in a way)...I laid it on him like there was no tomorrow...best sex we ever had! And once he left...that was it - no more!

 

I probably shouldn't of...but whatever. I did and I acted like it wasn't a big deal...just ME using HIM for some BOOTY! although it hurt. I kicked myself in the a/s/s after for being so weak!! Oh well................there is no script, no rules, so *shrug*.....onward! :laugh:

 

Oh, BK, I am so glad you said this. I thought for you sure that YOU were going to yell at me because I should have told him to get out, and burn his clothes on the lawn, and definitely NOT Have sex with him.

 

My plan, at the moment, is that I will not be his booty call once he moves out, but I am not going to lie, that would be really hard. We have two kids so I think that would make things difficult (like if Dad was still there in the morning), so I am guessing he won't booty call me anyway, but you never know. So basically, I know that I am setting myself up for complete torture once he moves out. But I am just trying to think one day at a time. The way the future is looking, we aren't ever having sex again once he moves out, so I might as well get it now.

 

Oh, btw, I thought you, BK, would be proud of me that I told him he should take the bed with him and I'll get a new one. I am also going to start suggesting things he take with him when he moves. It will kill me but I want him to get it that I really seriously am supporting his decision.

[melissag]

There's two ways to look at it imo.

 

(1) As your H he is entitled to intimacy w his W.

 

(2) I don't think he should be rewarded with love and intimacy since he is not wishing to be M anymore. Love is what's bestowed when there is love in return and w the two sharing .. and of one accord in the R.

 

UF, you are very practical and logical. Which means you must be much farther along in this process than I am. I see what you are saying, but I don't really look at it either way. I look at it as, I love him, he loves me, we are still married, and we are still attracted to each other (I know, when I say all that, it makes me wonder why the F we are getting D), and, aside from my own pleasure, I also want him to know that he is wanted, and quite frankly, this may be the last chance get to feel that connection with him.

[Mr. Lucky]

ETA: I have done no pursuing behavior, Mr. L . . . unless you include sex as pursuing? Yikes. It was initiated by him, though.

First off Melissa, no judgement from me.

 

I'd simply ask you what a sexual relationship with him at this point accomplishes? As he's told you, doesn't change the fact that he's leaving.

 

You seem like a grounded individual that's asking a lot of the right questions. Do what feels best and works best for you. Just be careful you don't set yourself up for further pain and heartbreak since, as many of us who have been in similar situations know, plenty on your plate already. All the best...

 

Mr. Lucky

[melissag]

OK, yeah, I think I was being kind of delusional. I spent about 24 hours thinking that I needed to feel that connection with H and feel like we were in this together, and now I just feel like an idiot - how can we be in this together? He's effing leaving me and crushing me and our children. I just don't know who to trust - everyone is telling me this and that and watch out, and protect yourself, and he's a jerk, etc. Everyone has their own interest in my problems, and I'm used to him being the person to be my strength. But I can't, can I? I mean, I felt like that for a little while, and then what happened? Last night, back to sleeping on the couch. Left early this morning for a previously planned work trip. Out the door with a "bye! have a good weekend!" Just the lack of love or caring or hug or anything hit me like a ton of bricks. Ouch.

 

What did you all do to get through this stuff? Here I am at 4:30 a.m., awake, and just miserable. I can't sleep. I feel agitated like I don't want to be in my own body. I feel so unbearably low, I don't even know how to get it together for my kids. I have a couple of things on my schedule today and I just want to cancel them. But I don't want to sit around my house either. I just want to be someone else. According to my IC, these are all "normal," but that doesn't help me. My life seems awful right now. I can't think of anything good about it. I mean, I can, but I don't feel it. Yes, I like rainbows. But I feel nothing when I see one now. I love my kids, but I don't feel like I can have fun with them, because nothing at all seems fun.

 

I'm usually very smart, and optimistic, and good with my emotions and really have it together, guys. And I feel just completely out of control and hopeless right now. And of course, that just adds to things and makes me feel worse - the fact that I am so weak that I can't make these feelings go away, or fight through them, or just be strong and carry on.

 

I am really hoping that this is a dark of night thing, and that things will seem better in the morning. But it doesn't feel like they will. Help.

 

ETA: I am going wildly between sticking to the DB stuff, and hoping beyond hope that at some point he will change his mind (gosh, it sure seems like there is no way, although in the DB book she says it's not too late), which gives me a little bit of focus and hope, and just being desperately and completely lost and a wreck. I can't even decide how to feel or what to do these days.

Edited October 18, 2013 by melissag

[melissag]

First off Melissa, no judgement from me.

 

I'd simply ask you what a sexual relationship with him at this point accomplishes? As he's told you, doesn't change the fact that he's leaving.

 

You seem like a grounded individual that's asking a lot of the right questions. Do what feels best and works best for you. Just be careful you don't set yourself up for further pain and heartbreak since, as many of us who have been in similar situations know, plenty on your plate already. All the best...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I guess I am having trouble figuring out what is going to cause further pain and heartbreak, because I feel like there can't possibly be any more, and then wham! I get smacked in the face again. I don't feel like I am capable of figuring anything out at this point. What a friggin mess.

[beatcuff]

...I'd simply ask you what a sexual relationship with him at this point accomplishes? As he's told you, doesn't change the fact that he's leaving...

 

i agree with the above. but re-read your post about your 'meeting' i saw at no point he said he loved you. at least my read, granted you left a lot out, is he sort of married you because it was the next step not because he really loved you.

 

is that what he means by 'feeling lost'. that he slept walked and now realizes its not what he wants.

 

the purpose of 180 is not only to ready yourself (maybe) for a life without S but also to show/remind the S what you are. if you remain his 'puppy' it allows him to dictate the terms of your relationship going forward. 180 gives you some of that back.

 

but do not beat yourself up to badly --- we all have relapses.

[melissag]

i agree with the above. but re-read your post about your 'meeting' i saw at no point he said he loved you. at least my read, granted you left a lot out, is he sort of married you because it was the next step not because he really loved you.

 

is that what he means by 'feeling lost'. that he slept walked and now realizes its not what he wants.

 

the purpose of 180 is not only to ready yourself (maybe) for a life without S but also to show/remind the S what you are. if you remain his 'puppy' it allows him to dictate the terms of your relationship going forward. 180 gives you some of that back.

 

but do not beat yourself up to badly --- we all have relapses.

 

Hmm. He did not say he loved me during our long talk the other night. He did say that a few days before. No, he definitely didn't marry me just because it was the next step. Definitely not. We had a great marriage for a long time before the issues started to overwhelm things.

 

When he said he lost himself in our marriage, what he meant is that through the years, he became someone that wasn't really him (in recent years, angry, grouchy, negative). I get that because I feel the same way - when I look at who I have been lately, it isn't all me. So I get it, and I don't want him to feel like that, BUT I guess what I don't get is why he can't work on that within our marriage, rather than just writing off his family.

[Suzanne L]

Hi Melissa. Sorry you are going through all of this, it is so hard. Good that you are doing the DB'ing that will help. I found in the beginning it was hard doing the DB'ing, but it gets easier over time, the more you stick with it. Don't beat yourself up over what happened. Keep on moving forward.

 

Right now, try to focus on yourself. Could you do something to treat yourself? Like get a new haircut and colour or get a manicure? Something to pamper yourself. What kind of hobbies do you have? Keeping busy is what kept me sane during all of my journey. Do you have some friends you can go out with and have some fun?

[melissag]

I just re-read the 180s. I am doing almost all of them. The parts that are giving me difficulty are the moving on and having fun . . . I have been trying to do more things to stay out of the house, connect with friends, exercise, etc., but at this point I am sort of sleepwalking through most of it. And I am doing all this when he is at work. I can't really do it at night when he is home because we have kids. I'm not sure if he is just acting or if he truly just does not care about how I am or what I am doing, but he rarely asks anything about me. This is really hard but I am going to recommit to living these 180s. Wish I could print it out and post it on the fridge but um, he still lives here and we have two kids.

[melissag]

Hi Melissa. Sorry you are going through all of this, it is so hard. Good that you are doing the DB'ing that will help. I found in the beginning it was hard doing the DB'ing, but it gets easier over time, the more you stick with it. Don't beat yourself up over what happened. Keep on moving forward.

 

Right now, try to focus on yourself. Could you do something to treat yourself? Like get a new haircut and colour or get a manicure? Something to pamper yourself. What kind of hobbies do you have? Keeping busy is what kept me sane during all of my journey. Do you have some friends you can go out with and have some fun?

 

Thanks, Suzanne. I am still in the beating myself up/feeling sorry for myself/can't believe this is happening, I don't want it to phase. Not sure there is any way to force myself out of this stage, is there? If so, I would love to know!

 

I've gotten a haircut, mani-pedis, went shopping, all sorts of stuff for me, I just don't really care about any of them. That's the hard part. I realized I don't smile anymore. I try but it is hard and feels fake. I have been hanging out with friends during exercise classes, meet for coffee or lunch, etc. It's definitely a little bit of an escape (though that knot in my stomach rarely goes away, and when it does, it's only a very short time before the thoughts come racing back in) but I would hardly say I've had any fun. I guess I need to just keep trying things and eventually I will learn to enjoy them again? I don't even like watching TV because either it is a show we watched together, or it's a show I watched on my own, but he was still my H then. AUGH. I am sure that I have heard of people like me, and thought they just need to buck up and get their s.h.i.t. together - happiness is a choice, life is what you make of it, etc. I had no idea that feelings like these could even exist. It's torture.

 

So after my 4:30 a.m. whine session, I got about an hour of sleep, and now I have decided that I am going to try to take advantage of him being gone this weekend. That way I can find my happiness with other things (like my kids!) instead of always thinking about when is he going to be home, how am I going to act, are we going to have sex tonight? I am hoping that I can pull it off because that might give me more hope about doing this on my own once he moves out and being OK.

 

Thanks everyone for the pep talks, advice and empathy. It means a ton.

[Mr. Lucky]

I just re-read the 180s. I am doing almost all of them. The parts that are giving me difficulty are the moving on and having fun . . . I have been trying to do more things to stay out of the house, connect with friends, exercise, etc., but at this point I am sort of sleepwalking through most of it. And I am doing all this when he is at work. I can't really do it at night when he is home because we have kids. I'm not sure if he is just acting or if he truly just does not care about how I am or what I am doing, but he rarely asks anything about me. This is really hard but I am going to recommit to living these 180s. Wish I could print it out and post it on the fridge but um, he still lives here and we have two kids.

Even a task done "sleepwalking" is one completed. And if it's done 180's style, it's one more brick in the recovery wall. Your best chance to survive this is to become a different and better you. And guess what - your best chance to reconnect with him is to become a different and better you. Anything done towards that goal serves two masters. Activities with the kids, hanging with friends, exercise, travel, hobbies, interests - you'll either be a great wife or great ex-wife. The distinction will be up to him .

 

Keep plugging away...

 

Mr. Lucky

[beatcuff]

you appear to be heading in the right direction. and maybe your H will 'rediscover' you.

 

BTW the best distraction is getting involved in a team sport. be it participating, coaching or ref'ing. most find themselves immersed in it during the game. and do not discount the 'locker room' effect. you make contacts for life. there are tons of 'learn to ----' so do not limit yourself.