Satan and Eternal Damnation; Hell if I know!

[dyermaker]

I'll start by making clear my personal beliefs. I do not have a belief in Hell (That's not to say I disbelieve it, I simply don't concern myself with its believability)--I'm certain I'm not going there, I'm pretty sure you're not going there, and while some people may need the threat of eternal flames to keep them in line, I'm not one of them.

 

I'm interested in your opinions on Hell, and while I solicit all opinions, I would especially like to see some sort of point of study--because when it comes to things that I don't take literally, I'm more in it for the scholarship and withdrawal of a religious truth than to learn how plausible a belief may be.

 

That said, I'll start with Hell.

 

The Old Testament has no place of Eternal Damnation. Everyone goes to Sheol when they die. This was written in Hebrew. Something like "The Unknown", it's tough to explain in English.

 

Then the Hebrew Texts were translated into Greek. Sheol became Hades, and slowly the concept evolved into only bad people going there. Does anyone have any more information on where that stretch came from? I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

My speculation is this: Christianity emphasized resurrection/redemption, and in order to reconcile the new teachings [Of Jesus Christ], people began to stress the torture of the afterlife (to encourage the finding of Jesus, which promised salvation).

 

Then came Gehenna. Gehenna [Think Valley of Hinnom] was, to put it plainly, a flaming pile of ****. It is an actual place South of Jerusalem, that you could visit (at the time of Christ), if you were so inclined. Due to a lack of waste management, they'd just burn it, and the smell was, imaginably, awful.

 

Interestingly enough, English translations (which, if you ever feel like studying, are surprisingly lazy and loose in their translations) translate Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna into the word "Hell".

 

I can conclude then (or at least hyptohesize), that Hell as an all-encompassing-place-you-go-when-you-die is sort of a modern invention, and not something that's Biblical at all.

 

Okay. I can *almost* accept that Hell's a place, even if I'm going to have to delve a bit deeper than the English will get me.

 

But Lucifer?

 

The story goes that Luciferwanted to be like God, so God threw him in the fire to serve as an example to other angels who get delusions of grandeur. The problems with such stories are numerous, to name a few:

 

1. If it happened in heaven, who on Earth (sorry) would record this soap-opera like drama and report it to humankind?

2. Angels, being created by God, would have to be incapable of evil, right?

3. Wouldn't *any* angel want to be like God? Am I humanizing angels?

4. God would have to have seen it coming, yes?

 

And the most important:

 

5. Was Lucifer cast into Hell, or given dominion over it?

 

If he was cast into Hell, that supposes that:

 

1. There already was a Hell.

2. Someone was already in control of it, to dole out the torture and such.

 

This makes, essentially, the Lucifer chronicle totally worthless to us, because he'd be just another soul in Hell, and seeing as we're not angels, we have no warning to heed from the story.

 

If not, and Lucifer becomes prince of darkness, then we conclude that:

 

1. Before Lucifer fell into Hell, there was no Hell.

2. Lucifer's punishment isn't really a punishment at all. He's given his own fiery palace to torture people until the end of time. Being in charge of Hell, he could easily escape the tortures himself (Think Enron, but with less oversight)--and since he's the evil one, He probably wouldn't get along well in Heaven any way.

 

We'll ignore the most obvious inconsistency, that a loving God would create a place just to torture us until the end of time for being bad. We'll just have to operate under the stipulation that we really ****ed up his son big-time, and this his way of kicking our ass for it.

 

Okay, now here's my biggest question. Who the hell (sorry) invented Satan?

 

The first mention of Satan is in the book of Job. That book totally sucks by the way--if you've seen the South Park where Kyle explains the story, it's dead on--Job is this really faithful, great guy, God brags about how wonderful he is, Satan says he's only wonderful/worshipful because God gives him a good life, Satan makes a wager, so God makes Job's life a living Hell in order to win a bet with Satan.

 

Okay, but you're thinking red guy w/ tail.

 

The trouble is, in all instances except one (which is regarded as simply an oversight in scripture, not significant enough to threaten the commonly accepted interpretation of 'adversary') Satan is written in Hebrew (Satan is a Hebrew word) with the definite article.

 

Ergo, it's not "Satan" as like, a person/entity, but rather "the satan"--someone fulfilling a role.

 

The book of Job was written by classical Jews, who would never have accepted the post-job-authored myth of Lucifer falling from heaven (They wouldn't accept the idea of angels being capable of rejecting God)--Therefore "the satan" in the story of Job is not a smartass who wagers with God, but rather an obedient agent of God. His responsibility was to challenge the faith of Job. Modern scholars liken him to a prosecutor.

 

Most sources say that the angel Samael and Satan are identical, but some writers place Samael as the angel of death, seperate from Satan.

 

Satan is often confused with Lucifer, because most scribes read Nebuchadnezzer as Lucifer, turning a narrative on the restoration of Israel into a condemnation of the nasty red fella. There is little, if any, support that Lucifer (who fell from heaven) is the same as Samael, Satan.

 

The idea that Satan was personified as a snake and tempting Eve is one of the many contributions to Christianity that came in the 1100's, and was added to the Old Testament to reinforce the belief in Hell.

 

Let's talk. Picture me sitting indian-style in the corner of the room taking notes.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I see hell as a collective manifestation of the 'punishment' part of the 'punishment v/s reward' stage of social development. A primitive concept that found its way into a figurative place throughout various religions and beliefs. Different visual symbols like 'devils' and such help reinforce the belief.

 

The promise of eternal salvation (reward), and the threat of eternal damnation (punishment) come in handy for keeping the pews and the coffers filled, so to speak.

 

When I envision a physical hell, it looks very much like how Hieronymus Bosch envisioned it. Either that or like a bleak barren Dali landscape with horrifyingly grotesque soft smooth shapes menacing in the distance.

[HokeyReligions]

http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/The%20Bible%20Hell.htm#_MEANING_OF_HADEES

 

Here is a site with some opinions and interpretations that I thought were interesting. I'm not saying I agree with it, just thought it interesting.

 

When I was growing up I was taught that Hell was an actual place, as was Heaven, where the soul would live in utter pain and torment as punishment for sinning. I was taught that the closest anyone could describe it was to describe a constant fire burning the skin of our human bodies and that pain would be magnified and relentless for all eternity. As a child I believed it and I was manipulated by that fear.

 

 

http://www.zetatalk.com/orientat/o28.htm I also thought this was an interesting POV (it's brief) and kinda goes along with how I was taught as a child.

 

The New Encyclopedia Britannica says: "The view that hell is the final dwelling place of the damned after a last judgment is held by the western prophetic religions: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. . . . Some modern theologians have again questioned the literalistic view but still hold that hell is, at least, a state of separation of the wicked from the good" (vol. 5, p.814).

 

 

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1002/q1002.html This site is my favorite. It is closest to how I was taught as a young adult.

 

 

1. Before Lucifer fell into Hell, there was no Hell.

This also falls in line with some of the things I was taught. Hell had a beginning, as did Heaven. Heaven did not exist prior to God creating man because there was no need for it to exist -- same with Hell. When Satan or Lucifer was cast out of Heaven he had to go someplace, and his casting out was what created Hell. Any who did not follow God must then be bound to Satan and suffer pain for all eternity, or embrace Satan and serve him which somehow made the pain tolerable. It was a long time ago that I studied this part in Sunday School!

 

My belief now is that I accept that anything is possible because there is no proof for or against any theory or religion or interpretation; and there is so very much that we don't know about our selves, our planet, our universe, etc. that it is folly to make absolute determinations without all the information.

[tiki]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

I was taught that the closest anyone could describe it was to describe a constant fire burning the skin of our human bodies and that pain would be magnified and relentless for all eternity.

 

Gosh, and I thought my tanning tanning bed sunburn was bad.

 

Hell yes, I believe in hell. And I say "No thanks".

[Pocky]

The idea of: heaven, hell, saviors, virgin birth, final judgment, battle between good and evil, the devil and the resurrection of the dead were originated within Zoroastrinism. Judaism and Christianity derived many of their concepts from this religion that was established around 600 BCE.

 

Dyer - If you haven't already researched Zoroastrinism you may find it interesting.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Beautifully stated, Lucrezia.

 

My personal philosophy is that evil resides in the darkness of the human soul, right along side of God's spiritual light. The struggle between good and evil is an internal battle each one of us faces within our lives each and every day. Lucifer is representative of that dark side of our human natures, given a face (complete with pitchfork and tail) to help us better relate to the intangible concept of "evil." He manifests himself in 'human form' through those who succumb to greed, prejudice, power and temptation -- Those whose egos transform them into self-proclaimed "gods." I've seen his face in the Hitlers, Jim Jones and Jeffery Domers of the world. I've seen his work on the faces of those who are sick, addicted, abused and desperate. And I've heard his blasphemes forked tongue from the mouths of false profits and world leaders. He does not reside in a place called "Hell." Rather he walks among us - within us, and his unwitting disciples are many.

 

I sincerely believe that Heaven, Hell and Purgatory all coexist on this earthy plain. Through our own actions, how we choose live our lives, we make for ourselves our own personal hells or paradise. We create our own realities. Punishment and reward are both earned through 'consequence.' (aka. Karma)

 

I do believe in an afterlife, Dryer. But not one where we dawn wings, halos and sit merrily upon clouds. I've witnessed for myself sufficient evidence that something of us continues on long after our physical deaths. And I leave myself open minded to all possibilities as to what exactly that may be.

 

I think it is wonderful that you are asking these questions rather than following blindly. Your spirituality spills from your posts and I am excited at the prospect of the journey you are about to embark.

 

While I was never the scholarly type myself, my curiosity was much like yours and I was given the opportunity to experience many different cultures and religions. The beauty I saw in the diversity left me awestruck and reinforced my faith in ways I would have never imagined. I will never again believe that there is only one true religion…one single path to God. All good roads lead to the same end, you need only find which one is the best for you, even if you choose to make your own.

 

Meanwhile, keep that direct line to your Creator open and uncluttered by the static of mortal dogma and fundamentalism. I may be the only one who recognizes it…but there is something very special and unique about you. I can't help but think you were put here for a purpose and your path will not be like any other. A closed heart and mind can not receive answers. Stay "open" and G-d will point the way.

[bluetuesday]

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

I may be the only one who recognizes it…

absolutely not. dyermaker has one of the finest brains not only on this board but in the entire western united states, and put to the best use in my opinion.

 

sorry dyer, i have nothing to add about hell you don't already know.

 

i am not a fan of hell or of the concept of hell and since i am never going there to find out if it exists or not, i'll keep quiet.

 

but i will, with your permission, copy your post to a friend of mine who has been so f*cked up by religious fundamentalism and a childhood in which he was constantly threatened with the eternal fires of hell that not only is he now an ardent anti-theist but he is, occasionally, irrationally, still absolutely petrified of the mere thought of burning in hell forever and totally unable to reconcile how a loving god would allow such a place to exist.

 

nothing i can say to him would be as eloquent as your explanation of the origins of the concept, and i'm sure nothing would be as soothing.

 

blue.

[morrigan]

I don't actually believe in a physical Hell. I personally feel that after death, a person is made to experience any pain or cruelty, physical and emotional, that they inflicted on another through that being's perspective. Who truly can know until they die?

 

I find an interesting correlation between the word Satan and the Egyptian God of Chaos, Set. I would imagine that when the Isrealites were living as slaves in Egypt, they heard or saw depictions of him. I remember once reading the hypothesis that Ramses II may have been the Pharoah that was punished by God for not allowing Moses and the Isrealites to leave Egypt. Who knows, it may have been one of the Setis who was Pharoah at the time, Seti I was Ramses II's father.

[Moose]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.....Here's a Biblical description of hell:

 

HELL

 

I believe it is a state we could be damned to and does exsist. Otherwise we wouldn't see it in the Scriptures at all.

 

The Old Testament has no place of Eternal Damnation. Everyone goes to Sheol when they die. This was written in Hebrew. Something like "The Unknown", it's tough to explain in English.

 

Here's some examples of what you're talking about:

 

Hell in the Old Testament

 

"Sheol", is just a word used to describe where people go when they die, more commonly used today is "grave".

 

I can conclude then (or at least hyptohesize), that Hell as an all-encompassing-place-you-go-when-you-die is sort of a modern invention, and not something that's Biblical at all.

 

I think it's a much older concept really, what you didn't mention in your post about the valley of Hinnom, or in the hebrew, "ge hinnom", is the fact that idols where put up for the God, "Molech", in which the Canaanites offered up human sacrifices......so, "ge hinnom", became a symbol for the judgment of God.

 

Okay. I can *almost* accept that Hell's a place, even if I'm going to have to delve a bit deeper than the English will get me.

 

Would it be easier for you to look at it not so much as a place, but a state of mind? Of being dead for instance? The only physical mention of a place similiar to the hell we're used to hearing about is the, "Lake of fire", that's been mentioned in Scripture. That's why I think it's more of a state of mind, and that there is a place where a, "Lake of fire", resides.

 

(Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.")

 

Notice that both death AND hell were cast into the lake of fire.

 

I'll talk with Mrs. Moose tonight about Lucifer, Satan, whomever you wanna call him, all I know is that he was the most glorious angel God ever created. She's taking a theology class and Lucifer has been a subject at one time. I'll see what she's gathered.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Moose

I believe it is a state we could be damned to and does exsist. Otherwise we wouldn't see it in the Scriptures at all.

More on this later.

Would it be easier for you to look at it not so much as a place, but a state of mind? Of being dead for instance?

I look at it this way.

 

1. When we are alive, electrical signals in our brain keep us alive through a series of complex chemical reactions.

2. These reactions fuel our thoughts, our state of mind.

3. When we die, the electricity goes away.

4. The chemical reactions cease.

5. There can not be a 'state of mind' after death, because nothing's fueling your mind.

 

I'll talk with Mrs. Moose tonight about Lucifer, Satan, whomever you wanna call him

It does matter, they are different characters.

 

Thanks for the help.