Please Read the "The Monogamy Myth"

[uberfrau]

IT's a wonderful book written by husband and wife, one who is a psychiatrist, and the other a physician. They've concluded that monogamy is NOT natural, does NOT come easily to men or women, and it is something each human has to work toward in order to maintain the current society we live in.

 

You people need some perspective on all this. Your spouse cheats? Big deal-they could do worse, like run the credit cards up to 10K, steal your money, get cancer...you see my point?

 

Human have the urge to be sexual with many people over the course of a lifetime. And if once they give in, who are YOU to judge??

 

Perhaps if you can distance yourself, you can get some perspective.

 

Besides, MONOGAMY is human society's mechanism to control male sexual jealousy. To me that's not much of a reason to be monogamous. Furthermore, monogamy was only one sided, that is, the WOMAN was mongamous at the peril of death, while Husband did whatever he wanted with whomever.

 

Maybe we need to rethink our expectations of our spouses-they can't be everything to us.

[LucreziaBorgia]

It is truly an excellent book, agreed.

[StillHurtin]

That is total bulls***!! My dad and mom have been married for almost 48 years and neither one of them have cheated on eachother. And don't you dare tell me I don't know b/c I know damn well they are faithful to eachother.

You choose to cheat. It has nothing to do w/ that monogamy isn't natural! God made us to be w/ one woman or one man only in marriage. If a person cheats it's not b/c it comes natural it's b/c they are selfish pr!cks or b!tches! I would rather have my H rack up a credit card, steal my money, or get cancer (even though cancer would be hard to deal w/ at least they are sticking their d!cks in someone else or spreading their legs open for another man) than have an A.

 

Have you ever experienced a spouse having an A? Do you know that pain? If not then how do you know what it's like until YOU have been through it? If you have, then you must be one in a million to not fill the pain and can compare it to the items you mentioned.

 

I have seen one of your replies in the past and you told the poster to get over it (or something similiar). I am sorry but when someones spouse/So has an A it's hard to get over. My BF back in college cheated on me and I ended it w/ him. Yes, I was in pain but not as much as when my H of 12 years had one.

[cecelius]

Lots of things among human beings are not natural.

 

Dedication to sports, art, technology, etc. are not something other creatures can do. There are thousands of different things that people do to rise above tiny, petty animal normalness.

 

Also sounds like a single cause falacy: because men get jealous of sexual activity (but women do not? women have no sense of intimacy? there is no thought that man and woman can be true friends as well as sexual?).

 

Silly assertions. There may be all kinds of truth in the societal pressures for marriage and committment, and plenty of evolutionary pressures to stray.

 

Someone should have told the Wright Bros. that flying isn't natural.

[Owl]

I've got to agree with a LOT of what StillHurtin posted. I've heard that this book has supposedly helped a lot of couples get over affairs...but I've also heard quite a lot about this book that makes me things it's a lot of hooey!

 

If monogamy is not man's "natural state", then why is it prevalant in almost every culture throughout the world???

 

And you know what...Still is right. I'd rather my wife would have run up a $10k credit card debt or whatever.

 

Do you have any idea what the pain is like trying to recover from an affair Uberfrau? Have you been through this yourself?? Or are you trying to defend you're own transgressions?

[Dakini]

Uberfrau:

 

Besides the threat of STD's, the physical aspect of affairs is, imo, almost irrelevant. I agree that biologically speaking, it is not logical to physically be monogamous.

 

What causes so much pain with infidelity is the emotional intimacy that your partner is sharing with someone else instead of you. It is the sharing of their soul, not their body, that is so hurtful.

[uberfrau]

Monogamy is not a natural state-it's a social construct designed to deal with male sexual jealousy. It's the male sexual jealousy that is 'natural'. I don't like using that word because it's deceptive. However, entertain this comparison: having sex with whomever you please is as natural as eating or drinking-monogamy is like wilful starvation and thirst.

 

StillHurtin-maybe if i believed in 'god' i would find your one man/one woman argument persuasive.

 

Owl-monogamy is prevalent in human cultures because it keeps male sexual jealousy in line. Actually, mongamy is prevalent only in those cultures where property ownership is prevalent. Every society has some sexual code to deal with male sexual jealousy, but Western society's are most restrictive, due to property ownership.

 

Yes, my husband slept with another woman, before we were married. I was suspicious, and he lied to me when asked. As for me, let's just say i was no angel.

 

In the end, husband is his own person and has control over his body. I respect that.

 

Perhaps if people informed themselves about the reality of monogamy, non-mongamous behavior of your spouse wouldn't be so hurtful.

[ThumbingMyWay]

Originally posted by Dakini

What causes so much pain with infidelity is the emotional intimacy that your partner is sharing with someone else instead of you. It is the sharing of their soul, not their body, that is so hurtful.

 

 

 

I agree 100%

[Owl]

Originally posted by uberfrau

Yes, my husband slept with another woman, before we were married. I was suspicious, and he lied to me when asked. As for me, let's just say i was no angel.

 

In the end, husband is his own person and has control over his body. I respect that.

 

Perhaps if people informed themselves about the reality of monogamy, non-mongamous behavior of your spouse wouldn't be so hurtful.

 

Regardless of whether or not its a "natural state"...its a violation of trust. You claim that this is all based on the male sexual jealousy....so then why are WOMEN hurt by affairs? Not sure this makes a ton of sense to me...

 

Sounds to me like you're more defending what YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND have done more than anything else. It sounds like an excellent way to AVOID RESPONSIBILITY for you actions to me. "Its not my fault...I was made that way!" You go, Jessica Rabbit!!!

[LucreziaBorgia]

Here is a bit more to clarify things for those who have not read the book:

 

The Monogamy Myth is the belief that monogamy is the norm in our society and that it is supported by society as a whole. The effect of believing that most marriages or committed relationships are monogamous is that if an affair happens, it's seen strictly as a personal failure of the people involved. This leads to personal blame, personal shame, wounded pride, and almost universal feelings of devastation.

 

The reality is that monogamy is not the norm, not by today's standards, anyway. Conservative estimates are that 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair. These figures are even more significant when we consider the total number of marriages involved, since it's unlikely that all the men and women having affairs happen to be married to each other. If even half of the women having affairs (or 20 percent) are married to men not included in the 60 percent having affairs, then at least one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages. With this many marriages affected, it's unreasonable to think affairs are due only to the failures and shortcomings of individual husbands or wives.

 

According to the Monogamy Myth, society as a whole is supportive of monogamy and of people's efforts to remain monogamous, leading people to expect to have a monogamous marriage. This reinforces the idea of personal failure for those people who fail to achieve monogamy.

 

We need to reject the Monogamy Myth, not to excuse those who have affairs, but to relieve the sense of shame and inadequacy felt by their mates. Since they keep their shame and anger hidden, they seldom get enough perspective to completely recover from these feelings, regardless of whether they stay married or get a divorce. Surviving this experience if it has happened (or avoiding it if it hasn't) is best accomplished by dealing with reality, not holding on to a myth.

 

The best hope for monogamy lies in rejecting the idea that a couple can assume monogamy without discussing the issue, or that they can assure monogamy by making threats as to what they would do if it happened. Either of these paths creates a cycle of dishonesty. In either case, people don't feel free to admit being attracted to someone else. If they don't admit these attractions, then they won't admit being tempted. And if they don't admit being tempted, then they certainly won't admit it if and when they finally act on the attraction. The effect on the relationship is to cause it to be filled with jealousy and suspicion, as well as making it less likely that it will be monogamous.

[jmargel]

Monogamy is not a natural state-it's a social construct designed to deal with male sexual jealousy. It's the male sexual jealousy that is 'natural'. I don't like using that word because it's deceptive. However, entertain this comparison: having sex with whomever you please is as natural as eating or drinking-monogamy is like wilful starvation and thirst.

 

So you think men are just basically jealous monkeys? We are so socially unadept that this 'Monogamy' was created to fill our insecurities?

 

Well someone just smack me upside the head then, because silly me.. I always thought Monogamy was something between two people who LOVE each other, a way to show that love and devotion.

 

uberfrau, you apparently like the book because its a way for you to deal with what he has done to you. Read the link in my signature, I could have told you the same thing as what this book has in certain parts. And no, I did not read the book.

 

Most affairs happen because of problems within the relationship.

 

However, entertain this comparison: having sex with whomever you please is as natural as eating or drinking-monogamy is like wilful starvation and thirst

 

A person who wants to cheat, is WANTING it. A person who needs to survive, NEEDS to eat and drink.

 

Get it?

 

There is a huge difference. If one thinks they have the NEED to cheat, then they should NOT be in a marriage or a committed relationship. All that will do is emotionally destroy their partner. You are just giving excuses to be extremely selfish. A relationship is thinking about both YOU and your PARTNER.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Agreed.

 

Monogamy is a choice just as infidelity is a choice. We are not at the mercy of our primordial biological impulses because we also have intellect and 'brains.' Our frontal right lobes are the "stop buttons" - or 'conscious' part of our brains which over-ride chemical impulse in healthy, intelligent adults. So unless you suffer from a brain chemical imbalance, mental and/or personality disorder, you can't use biological pre-programming as an excuse. We are hard-wired for sex, but we are not hapless victims of our own libidos. If that were true, we would fail to survive as a species because we'd all be following our other primordial impulses to also go around and murder each other the minute we were pissed off by someone.

 

Catch twenty-two.

[moimeme]

Monogamy is not a natural state-it's a social construct designed to deal with male sexual jealousy. It's the male sexual jealousy that is 'natural'.

 

Fascinating. Then, by that theory, females would not feel jealousy or pain if their spouses were not monogamous. Oddly enough, both genders are built to experience both emotions when their spouses stray. Now, you can try real hard to make this evolutionary case based on animal behaviour, however we are fairly sure that animals don't have similar emotions. Explain the reasons for humans of both genders having these feelings if it is not because we are designed to be monogamous, please.

 

We need to reject the Monogamy Myth, not to excuse those who have affairs, but to relieve the sense of shame and inadequacy felt by their mates

 

Well that's a nice sentiment, but the rationale is completely illogical. The mates have no reason to feel shame and inadequacy because their spouses have strayed. It is the spouses who should feel the shame and inadequacy. And that fact alone will relieve the feelings of the betrayed spouse. Affairs are the fault of the people having affairs, period.

[uberfrau]

I never said, nor implied, that women didn't have negative feelings about their husband have sex with other women.

 

What is true, however, is that men, when confronted with a cheating wife, are much MORE LIKELY to either beat wife and lover, destroy property and end up in jail. Hency, monogamy (historically one sided) and the police state. It's necessary to keep the peace, supposedly.

 

Every society has it's own sexual code-I just believe ours is unecessarily restrictive and punitive.

 

THe statistics about jealous males support me on this one. Just go to the FBI crime stats. And one can look through the threads posted by betrayed husbands to see their violent streaks.

 

Also, I am an atheist materialist, so don't pull out any god arguments, or 'its all about souls'.Try to be rational.

 

I was this way before i even met my husband-so my beliefs aren't a method of 'coping' with husband's fling.

 

You people are WAY TOO emotional about this topic.

[Owl]

Originally posted by uberfrau

 

What is true, however, is that men, when confronted with a cheating wife, are much MORE LIKELY to either beat wife and lover, destroy property and end up in jail. Hency, monogamy (historically one sided) and the police state. It's necessary to keep the peace, supposedly.

 

Every society has it's own sexual code-I just believe ours is unecessarily restrictive and punitive.

 

THe statistics about jealous males support me on this one. Just go to the FBI crime stats. And one can look through the threads posted by betrayed husbands to see their violent streaks.

 

Also, I am an atheist materialist, so don't pull out any god arguments, or 'its all about souls'.Try to be rational.

 

I was this way before i even met my husband-so my beliefs aren't a method of 'coping' with husband's fling.

 

You people are WAY TOO emotional about this topic.

 

ROFLMAO, ya think?!?!?!?! Did you notice that the name of the forum is "INFIDELITY"...which means that the vast majority of us have been involved in an affair in one of the three ways...betrayed spouse, wandering spouse, or other person. So what the heck did you expect here, a bunch college professors looking to debate?!?! LOL

 

OK...so you wanna be rational? But, by your own conclusions after reading this book, there is nothing rational at all about infidelity, or by our reactions to it. It's all animal drive, and society's mechanisms to keep us from killing each other off when it happens.

 

OK, so we're a bunch of animals in your eyes. So...based on your readings of this book, its ok to have affairs? If I decided to have an affair, my wife should just accept that it's because I'm a male animal, and not let it bother her? But, you've already admitted that we're hard coded to respond the way we do to infidelity...so what's the point?

 

How is knowing that its an animal drive supposed to help someone deal with the pain of an affair??? It doesn't change the damage that was done to trust...it just says we shouldn't have trusted in the first place?

[ThumbingMyWay]

Originally posted by uberfrau

You people are WAY TOO emotional about this topic.

 

 

thas because MOST of us believe that emotions and sexually itimacy go hand in hand....

 

 

If YOU feel that you can have emotional and sexual intimacy with your husband...AND each of you can have sexual intimacy outside of your marriage relationship...then all the power to you. BUT when emotional itimacy sets in outside the marriage...thats when your problems will start....

 

My wife and I have been thru alot....and we have talked about this very subject quite often. The freedom to be married and having a loveing relationship....PLUS have varity in your own sexual desire....meaning having sex with others outside the relationship, without giving up the marriage relationship. WE both agree that as exciting it would be to f*** another person.....we would not be able to handle the emotional consequences that are involved with that idea. Cause we BOTH know and feel that having sex is one thing...but it would be too hard to separate that act with the emotions that are invovled.

[GirlDown]

for those who cannot or will not remain monogamous staying out of a relationship and/or marriage is an option.

 

in other words, if you need to screw everything you see, don't fool someone into thinking you're not doing that.

 

ugh.

[tanbark813]

I find monogamy to be pretty easy myself. I think uberfrau is just a bitter old woman looking to rationalize her lost loves.

 

Violence also comes natural to humans. In terms of our general nature, we're one of the most vicious creatures on the planet. Does that mean we should allow that as well?

 

The high intellect of humans (well, some humans anyway) allows us to make rational choices, rather than act on every urge and impulse. The fact that we can control those things is what allows civilized society to exist.

 

Saying it's okay to cheat because monogamy is unnatural based on these biological imperatives is just a cop out for weak people. Nothing more.

[GirlDown]

well said, tanbark, well said.

 

[EnigmaXOXO]

THe statistics about jealous males support me on this one. Just go to the FBI crime stats. And one can look through the threads posted by betrayed husbands to see their violent streaks.

 

I agree that male testosterone levels makes them naturally more aggressive, which may also explain why more males commit crimes of violence than women. But there are women who have killed out of rage and jealousy - or hire someone to do the dirty work for them. As a matter of fact, I just watched a CNN program where a woman was driven to such rage that she ran over her husband three times in a hotel parking lot (with her teenage daughter in the front seat) because they caught him coming out of hotel room with the affair partner he swore he would never see again.

 

But jealousy is not gender bias. Nor is it a 'learned' behavior. As a matter of fact, anyone who's raised more than one child at a time will tell you they learn to compete for parental attention early on. Even animal species without intellect display the same basic behaviors. It's inherent. Perhaps even driven by the basic instinct for self-preservation and survival.

 

You people are WAY TOO emotional about this topic.

 

Of course people are. We are not the only animals who are driven to kill in order to protect our families and mates. Fortuneately, death matches among rival suitors are no longer as common among human beings as they are with other animal species. That's because after many years of witnessing the consequence of our own destructive behaviors, many civilized societies have been compelled to pass laws and customs to try and govern, control and minimize the potential dangers of our own short-comings. As futile as it may be, I'd hate to imagine the alternative.

[GirlDown]

my "uncle" ( i have a hard time calling him that now, even after 18 years) killed my aunt. i was 5, and it was my father's only sister.

 

she was not cheating. HE was.

 

so are you going to tell me, uberfrau, that he had a right to violently take away someone's life because she got in the way of his most basic human need--to f*uck whoever he wanted? that his rage was justified?

 

please.

 

find someone who really loves you (and only you) enough to respect you and you will feel much differently about this.

[tanbark813]

Originally posted by GirlDown

well said, tanbark, well said.

 

 

 

Thanks.

[Matilda]

Have you seen the research done with the meadow voles and the prairie voles? Perhaps it is simply a question of brain chemistry, and perhaps some people have the monogamous type of brain chemistry, and others don't.

http://www.jsonline.com/alive/news/jun04/237297.asp

 

Prairie voles are one of the only monogamous members of the rodent family. In fact, only about 5% of all mammal species are monogamous. Prairie voles form lifelong bonds with a single mate.

 

Meadow voles, on the other hand, mate with multiple partners.

 

Neurobiologically, there's another big difference.

 

Prairie voles have abundant receptors for vasopressin, a chemical that is released in the brain after sex. Receptors are molecules on the surface of brain cells that can bind to neurotransmitters and other substances.

 

You put them (a male and female prairie vole) together for a day, and they mate and they prefer their mates to females they have never seen," said Brandon Aragona, a researcher at Florida State University who was not part of the study. "It's the opposite case for other rodents."

 

That includes meadow voles, which have no vasopressin receptors in that brain region. Meadow voles will mate with multiple partners.

 

However, when the Emory researchers introduced a gene that produced a large number of vasopressin receptors in the brains of 11 meadow voles, they started acting like prairie voles.

 

The once-promiscuous voles formed bonds with single female partners and started spending a lot more time with them, even when they had the choice of being around other females.

[GirlDown]

and while this may hold true for prairie voles, the fact remains that humans have the ability to reason...

 

and to take responsiblity for their actions.

 

good point though, i would not have known there was a study on animals about this sort of thing. how interesting.

[tanbark813]

Of course, Matilda conveniently left out the part that says humans have similar brain chemistry as the prairie voles. We're neurochemically wired to form monogamous, lasting relationships. That's why it hurts so bad to breakup. Your body is literally experiencing chemical withdrawals from the oxytocin that was in abundance while you were with your SO. These withdrawals are similar--in terms of brain activity--to withdrawals from cocaine.

 

I've been doing a lot of reading on this lately to help ease my own pain.