The problem with "nice guys" - Comments please

[bebop]

There's one right here but I'm spoken for, sorry.

 

[RowanRavyn]

Kook and Renee make good points.

 

I DO get called on stuff. Does that mean I bow to his masculine sensibilities (Whatever that means) and say "Darling you're right!" and the music swells and we kiss and in a repentatent fashion I offer him oral sex?

 

NO, sometimes it pisses me off, hell often times it pisses me off, and I have to go think about it. Sometimes he is right, sometimes he is wrong. The difference is HOW he "Calls me on it." He doesn't strive to make me feel stupid, or inferior. He doesn't call me names. He doesn't pout like a simpering twit thinking I should read his mind either. He never brings up issues in front of friends. BECAUSE we were friends first, we have had a policy of being honest with each other, and calling each other on things. We have established that we care about each other as human beings. We have shown through our friendship that we have each others best interest at heart. In other words, we established respect before sex became involved. (Now that there is sex OOOOOOOOOOOBOY!!! Its all the better.)

 

In short guys. Just be our friends. Be yourself. Don't be bent on domination and manipulation. Save that for the Power Exchange.

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

 

 

Where can I find a woman who appreciates a man like that? Other than studying Martial Arts for 25 years (only several for me), you just described me

 

I am well taken love, but I am right here in sunny (well lets be honest foggy) Cali as well. I had to come all the way to Cali to meet a nice guy. Go figure.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by Bob47

The hardest thing for me is that no matter how kind, honest, and trustworthy I try to be, it never gets me anywhere. I'm just learning now that I should have learned how to play "the game" a long time ago.

 

But it is frustrating. Everyone tells you to "just be yourself". For some guys like me, that has gotten me nowhere.

 

 

just be yourself is great advice for dudes that already get lots of women. the rest of us have to modify ourselves somewhat.

 

if you want to be kind, honest and trustworthy you should live in another country cause it won't go too far in the good old U.S.A.

[Kittykat2004]

Yeah I thought I found a good nice guy!

 

Everyone thinks he makes the sun rise and shine!

 

They all love him soooo much.

 

You've guessed it I see the Mr Hyde and it's nasty I find it very difficult sometimes and don'y know what's the best for both of us!

 

I don't like to give up on people and have hope that in time things might get better! I know people would say move on there are plenty of guys who would treat you better.

 

I am a very successful person who is strong and content with my life and if i didn't love him as much as I do I would be off!

[johan]

I think this whole "nice guy" vs. "bad boy" thing boils down to this. Women don't want a man who will treat them like crap, they want a man who is nice, treats them with respect but is not a DOORMAT who will allow them to walk all over him. They want someone who is good to them but will be willing to call them on things. They don't want an arrogant jerk, but they don't want a sappy, feminine man who has no spine.

Alphamale, you agreed with this and so do I. Then you say something like this:

just be yourself is great advice for dudes that already get lots of women. the rest of us have to modify ourselves somewhat.

 

if you want to be kind, honest and trustworthy you should live in another country cause it won't go too far in the good old U.S.A.

Which is in response to:

The hardest thing for me is that no matter how kind, honest, and trustworthy I try to be, it never gets me anywhere. I'm just learning now that I should have learned how to play "the game" a long time ago.

 

But it is frustrating. Everyone tells you to "just be yourself". For some guys like me, that has gotten me nowhere.

Putting those together, it seems that you consider being a man who

1) is nice, treats them with respect, but is not a DOORMAT who will allow them to walk all over him, and

2) is good to them but will be willing to call them on things

is how you "modify yourself somewhat." That's the game you're proposing to play? That's not a game. That's just being a self-respecting person. I would wonder what methods you recommend for keeping a woman from walking all over you, but you already answered that for me. I recently posted a complaint, and your advice was the following:

> she is losing respect for you and your relationship

> you are no longer a challenge and this has cooled her interest level

> You need to start doing to her the things she does to you, like don't even try to hold her hand anymore

> start seeing other women casually and tell her you are doing this

> slowly start seeing less and less of her, if you are living together then move out

> stop treating her so nice and start being more of a selfish dick

 

after you do these things she may regain her interest and then when she does come back keep on doing the above things to keep her interest high. women tend to love their men more when the man starts to lose interest. i know it sound crazy but that is the way it is. rember that absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I know that taking your advice would have driven a wedge of distrust into my relationship. Had I not known that, maybe I would be saying goodbye to the woman I adore who I've been with for almost 3 years. That kind of pisses me off. It's as if you were recommending I fix it by giving her a good dose of poison. What about the guys who don't know better? I guess they'll have to learn.

[ConfusedInOC]

Johan,

 

The trick is to not listen to AlphaMale's advice unless you're still stuck in the stone age.

 

The point is, a nice guy is not a doormat. If you're a nice guy and have a life of your own and don't "crush" her with your love, you'll be fine. Just don't pay so much attention to her that she feels "pressured" to be with you. That's the exact formula for "relational suicide."

 

Not every relationship works out no matter what you do. In those cases, all you can do is lick your wounds, learn and move on.

 

I know it's hard. I am learning myself. But I know the "cut of my jib" and would rather find someone who appreciates me for who I am.

 

And that's not a doormat....

[alphamale]

Originally posted by johan

I know that taking your advice would have driven a wedge of distrust into my relationship. Had I not known that, maybe I would be saying goodbye to the woman I adore who I've been with for almost 3 years. That kind of pisses me off. It's as if you were recommending I fix it by giving her a good dose of poison. What about the guys who don't know better? I guess they'll have to learn.

 

what I mean was that you need to give her a dose of her own medicine. It is always fun to dole it out but when SHE in on the receiving end then she may wake up and modify her behavior.

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by alphamale

what I mean was that you need to give her a dose of her own medicine. It is always fun to dole it out but when SHE in on the receiving end then she may wake up and modify her behavior.

 

Two wrongs do NOT make a right. Love does not teach lessons that way. If I used that school of thought, I would go back where I came from armed with restraints and a baseball bat. If I did that...well...I would stoop to his level, and I refuse to be subhuman, that and the fact that it would be a waste of time.

 

In the end the only person you can "fix" is yourself.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

Two wrongs do NOT make a right. Love does not teach lessons that way

 

this is nice thinking for a sterile and ideally perfect world but in real life it does not work. so should we all play dead and take it when someone wrongs us?

 

scott peterson killed Lacy and her unborn son so he should not be punished according to your "two wrongs do not make a right?"

 

hey man, if someone dicks you over you have total right to retaliation. I'm sure you would respect a man who did not stand up for himself when he was wronged.

[RowanRavyn]

Alpha honey, get some testosterone detox. I am not talking politics, this time. I am talking about being in a relationship with someone and mistreating them because they mistreat you. I am not talking about murder.

 

Wife snaps at husband because she had a ****ty day at work, husband snaps back, soon they are in an argument that is all about her crappy day at work and nothing about them. They go to sleep pissed off at each other, and it lingers for days. If husband had taken the time to say, "wow, are you ok?" or "rough day?" with some nice body contact like touching her arm, or rubbing her shoulders or giving her a hug, hubby might just get laid, and she will have gotten rid of her bad mood, and their relationship will be stronger. (you can feel free to reverse these roles as well. Hubby snaps at wife etc.)

 

Of course if the couple has already gotten in the habit of bickering this way it may be too late. He will simply think her a bitch and she will think him an insensitive jerk. Then some really nice guy will come along and when she snaps at him he will say "Whoa honey" ::touching her arm gently:: "Sounds like you had a rough day. Don't take it out on me. Sit down and talk to me about it while I fix dinner." She will begin to realize that she takes out her snappiness on other people, and change her way of expressing herself. Mean while her ex will whine about nice guys finishing last because he thought working over time, and dishing things back to her meant he was a nice guy.

 

Can't we all just be NICE to each other regardless of SEX!?

 

If one followed your line of thought in its entirety there were be more of everything you hate.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

If one followed your line of thought in its entirety there were be more of everything you hate.

 

Exactly. At some point, you have to break the cycle. If someone's treating you bad, you go find someone else who appreciates you. You don't try and "teach them a lesson" by recycling their behavior.

 

You teach them a lesson by "walking away...."

[theone44]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

Exactly. At some point, you have to break the cycle. If someone's treating you bad, you go find someone else who appreciates you. You don't try and "teach them a lesson" by recycling their behavior.

 

You teach them a lesson by "walking away...."

 

 

 

Come on now,if someone hit you up side your. you wouldn't hit them back

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by theone44

 

 

 

 

Come on now,if someone hit you up side your. you wouldn't hit them back

 

 

Oh, pease we are talking relationships not random street violence.

However, I doubt seriously I would. I didn't for 10 years, but one day, I walked away. One day I used my mouth to tell a judge about it. One day I changed my life completely, and stopped being a door mat.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by theone44

Come on now,if someone hit you up side your. you wouldn't hit them back

 

What are you doing with that kind of person to begin with?

 

If someone laid a hand on me, male or female, that would be the last time they ever saw me. I do not tolerate that sort of behavior.

[theone44]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

Oh, pease we are talking relationships not random street violence.

However, I doubt seriously I would. I didn't for 10 years, but one day, I walked away. One day I used my mouth to tell a judge about it. One day I changed my life completely, and stopped being a door mat.

 

 

 

Now be honest. i want to hear from a woman point of few. Women don't play fair in them dating game stuff. Known as the game of love

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by theone44

 

 

 

 

Now be honest. i want to hear from a woman point of few. Women don't play fair in them dating game stuff. Known as the game of love

 

 

I have no clue what you are asking of me.

[theone44]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

I have no clue what you are asking of me.

 

 

 

Well from a man point of view. some women don't play fair when come's to dating. somethey they beat around the bushes when they tell a man what they looking for.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

Wife snaps at husband because she had a ****ty day at work, husband snaps back, soon they are in an argument that is all about her crappy day at work and nothing about them. They go to sleep pissed off at each other, and it lingers for days. If husband had taken the time to say, "wow, are you ok?" or "rough day?" with some nice body contact like touching her arm, or rubbing her shoulders or giving her a hug, hubby might just get laid, and she will have gotten rid of her bad mood, and their relationship will be stronger. (you can feel free to reverse these roles as well. Hubby snaps at wife etc.)

 

 

why is wifey snapping at hubby when she has bad day at work in first place?

 

And then if hubby plays nice puppy dog and becomes spineless jellyfish then he JUST MAY GET LAID?!?

 

That does not happen in real life. In real life if the woman can walk all over the man then she eventually loses respect for him and splits.

[RowanRavyn]

They key thing to what you are saying is "SOME".

 

SOME men do the same thing.

 

The thing is that PEOPLE (men and women) often treat each other like crap and lie to get what they want. I refuse to judge all men based on my ex.

[johan]

what I mean was that you need to give her a dose of her own medicine. It is always fun to dole it out but when SHE in on the receiving end then she may wake up and modify her behavior.

 

Your assumption is that she was deliberately mistreating me. She wasn’t, she was just busy and distracted. I could maybe hold that against her if I didn’t get that way myself sometimes. In case she wasn’t doing it on purpose, then you’re suggesting I deliberately do it myself. I would be the one choosing to do wrong things and bringing that rot into our relationship. I told her how I felt and what I saw. She listened and she made an effort to fix them. She was happy to do that because she loves me and she knows in her heart that I would do the same.

 

What if she had been deliberately doing those things out of some kind of spite? That doesn’t make it ok for me to turn and do it myself. By doing it myself, I’d just be stating that it’s acceptable in our relationship. Then I can’t really complain or walk away because of it and be consistent with myself. I have standards for my behavior and for hers as well. Some things just aren’t acceptable. Hurting my girlfriend on purpose is not acceptable, no matter what she does to me. By rejecting it myself, I also influence her to never do it to me. In the end I would at least like to have my dignity and self-respect.

 

Or what if she was falling out of love with me? Should I turn by back on her like you suggested? Why should I use emotional brute force to gain the respect and attention she should be willing to give me for free? It wouldn't be sincere, so it's a failed strategy regardless. If she could not make an effort to change the things that need to be changed, because her heart was no longer in it, then it’s really just time to think about a future without her. Jerking her around could either accelerate the process or slow it down. It won’t change the outcome. And I’m not going to give up my standards for what is right or wrong to do just because she doesn’t love me anymore.

 

Having her fall out of love with me is the risk I'm taking. If it happens I need to know it was really me she didn't love, and not just the meaningless "bad guy" facade I put up.

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by alphamale

 

 

 

why is wifey snapping at hubby when she has bad day at work in first place?

 

And then if hubby plays nice puppy dog and becomes spineless jellyfish then he JUST MAY GET LAID?!?

 

That does not happen in real life. In real life if the woman can walk all over the man then she eventually loses respect for him and splits.

 

 

Oh, Alpha, Alpha, Alpha.

 

It was just an example. I told you to feel free to reverse the roles. Hubby snaps at wife etc.

 

It does happen in real life. Maybe not yours.

 

You ask a relavent question why WOULD a person snap at another person when they have had a bad day. The real question is, how do you get an answer to that question? By saying "Don't be such a B1+@H!" "What is your freaking problem?" ?! Not if they want to show real concern. Certainly not if they want a healthy partnership. I am not talking about a puppy dog. I am talking about a person who knows how to use proper communications with another person. A person who knows how to say in a loving manner, "Hey don't take things out on me."

 

I am merely expressing my opion, based on my personal experience just as you have.

 

You got treated like crap obviously.

 

So did I.

 

You have chosen to "keep women" in their place by using domination and belittling, keeping them at a distance so that they can not hurt you. Working under the assumption that nice guys finish last, when the underlying thought process is that all women are 8!+ch@$.

 

I have chosen to learn good communication skills and to remove myself from situations where I am not respected. I know from experience with men (eg my brothers, nephews and good friends). That not all men behave like jerks.

 

We took two different paths.

[johan]

Not to mention, by the way, that women often choose a man based on how good a father he might be. An inability to communicate, spitefulness and a vengefulness are values very few women want to see in their kids. So your days are numbered as soon as you start with the games.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by RowanRavyn

I am talking about a person who knows how to use proper communications with another person. A person who knows how to say in a loving manner, "Hey don't take things out on me."

 

 

Well ROWANRAVYN, in my personal experience women do not respond to logical reason or communication or being nice to them. They respond to emotions and actions, both positive and negative.

 

In your above example of the wife coming home pissed off in a bad mood and hubby says "oh, baby, why are you so mad? what's wrong? boo hoo.... let me make dinner and massage your tired feet". You know what this does??? It reinforces the wifes bad behavior. Now she knows that everytime she comes home pissed off her hubby will comfort her and take care of her and make dinner and give massage. So he is reiinforcing her misbehaving cause he is treating her good whenever she treats him bad or is pissed off. This is psychology 101.

[EC]

OMG get over it. Its not all about games. If your wife comes home tired and bitchy you rub her feet and massage her because YOU LOVE HER! Thats it. No hidden intentions no mind games. UGH!

 

What happened to just loving someone unconditionally?