viewing porn + masterbation - do I have a right to be hurt?

[FairyTail]

Grinning Maniac --

 

You never cease to amaze me. You have the ability to say something so completely right...

 

 

Originally posted by Grinning Maniac

Furthermore, I've never contrasted and compared my girlfriend's body to that of any porn stars. That's just stupid. Guys actually do that? That would be a new one to me. Porn chicks aren't real. Half of the girls in porn have had plastic surgery. Dig this, I remember seeing pics of this one chick who had a nice body but her face was sort of ugly. Then, in another set of pics taken later in time... SHE HAD A COMPLETELY NEW FACE. Do you think that's rare? Please. It happens all the time. If you're so intimidated by porn stars, you can easily look like one if you have the money. But I'll tell you what, if I found out you did it, I'd never date you...girls who do that have issues.

 

...then you ruin it.

 

You ladies are eternally threatened by a bunch of cut-up, inflated, Photoshopped pin-ups? That sort of says something doesn't it? Porn girls aren't real, and we're not taking notes. You are. Guys aren't expecting to see porn girls when they drive to work in the morning. I'll be bold and say most guys wouldn't even want a porn star for a girlfriend. Why? ...Because they're porn stars! They're friggin h00res. Could your average guy really love and respect a porn star? I couldn't.

 

I think that your problem is with empathy -- you don't even TRY to understand why women feel the way they do about this situation. And of course, it's difficult for men to understand the thoughts going through women's minds because we have different cultural/social pressures pressed on us and our minds naturally work in different ways. Now, don't jump the gun or fly off the handle at me because I'm not attacking you -- just LISTEN to what I have to say, and maybe you can see why women feel this way.

 

Why do you suppose women have sex? In general, it's because they want to improve a relationship.

Why do you suppose men have sex? Because it feels good.

 

This difference is HUGE. If you are to believe that sex is part of your relationship and is something you do that is private and special and brings you closer to that person, is it really so "out-there" to be threatened by one's masterbatory aids? Granted, this DOES sound silly and irrational, but this is how some women will think. "Why does he need to look at her? Does he find her prettier than me? I must be doing something wrong for him to turn to this. What if he only wants the porn, and doesn't want me?" (and believe me, I've taken enough Psychology courses to know that the last question HAS happened before.) These are the things women worry about. And if you still think it's silly, watch a television for a half an hour and really take a look at the women who are presented, even in commercials. There is a silent standard set by the media that women feel like they have to subconciously live up to, and when women find out that their man is masterbating to those women -- who, in turn, somehow become the competition -- they feel threatened.

 

Also, one thing that bothered me about the "prettier" thing, as you most likely remember from my original thread, is that I can't stand the fact that some men can't see that if you washed the pounds and pounds of make-up off of their face and clicked the "Undo" button on "Photoshop," they'd be average looking women -- IF THAT. You understand that, and I respect you for it. Most women have put on make-up or styled their hair enough to know what a woman probably looks like without all of those beauty aids, and personally, that's what bothers me, and perhaps it bothers other women, as well.

 

I understand that you're outraged at the girls who are like this because they just don't understand what is going on in a guy's mind -- "You ladies are eternally threatened by a bunch of cut-up, inflated, Photoshopped pin-ups?"

So, try to think of the points I've made so you can try to understand why some women are sensitive about this topic.

 

And please, once again...I implore you to read my post thoroughly and clearly, and to not go into a blind attack mode on me. I'm just trying to get you to understand.

[dyermaker]

I think if you recognize irrational, self-destructive thinking as irrational, self-destructive thinking you aren't showing a lack of empathy.

 

I can empathize with being irrational and self-destructive. Empathy does not mean unconditional validation.

 

Women who refuse to understand pornography's role in sexuality are only doing themselves harm--and certain devil's advocates and fellow deludeds who choose to validate said refusal may come off as the "good guy", defending womens' feelings, but all they really are doing is encouraging a cycle of ignorance and pain.

 

In almost all of the cases, women come for advice on pornography, get the clear truth, don't like it, and then get Immoralist telling them it's okay to be self-destructive, and other women telling them that it's okay to continue to feel this way. At which point, they decide that they'll continue their behavior because they had no intention of changing their mind.

 

I can understand immoralist's goals, his point is clear: we're just humans, we've got feelings, and we need to make ourselves happy. If being happy means abandoning a relationship because of our own mental problems about porn, or, in some cases, simply because we're bored of our spouse, so be it, we live but once.

 

His point is that women who have issues with porn should dump porn-users and find guys who don't use porn (right, them, ), or are much better at hiding it. I think that advice is pretty useless, considering the issue of scarcity--although, of course, allowing for infidelity I suppose the chances increase. I guess I look at it differently; Women who have issues with normal, healthy porn usage are like dogs who crap in the house--It's much better to housebreak them (teach them that despite their unqualified opinion, they don't know more about men's thoughts than actual men), then to keep giving them away until you find a family who doesn't mind the smell of crap in their house (validate their nueroses and encourage them to find men who reserve sexual activity for mutual pleasure).

[Grinning Maniac]

Alright. No fists of fury this time.

 

I think that I understand a lot more than you give me credit for, FT. I've never taken a Psychology course in my life and I'm well aware that women ask the kinds of questions you posted. You can see those by spending a half-hour on LS...

 

I also understand that women see sex as more of a mental/emotional thing than we do. That's nothing new to me. However, my question is this: If being understanding and sensitive to the way that women view sexuality is so important, why is it so outrageous that we ask women to understand the way WE view things. Understanding is a two way street, but it seems to me that in this kind of situation, women want men to be "respectful" of how they view the situation and completely disregard OUR feelings about it. That feels hypocritical to me. It's illogical as well. Let's assume that women are offended by porn because they feel that the men who use it are "sharing" a special moment with "someone else". If women could simply come to terms with the fact that men don't consider masturbation to be emotional at *all* and that the sanctity of the sexual relationship we have with them is untouched in our minds, wouldn't it fix the entire situation? Women seem to be upset at men because of a rational that we don't even have. Sex and masturbation are completely different things. I'd be more comfortable comparing masturbation to back-scratching than comparing it to sexual intercourse.

 

Also, the concept of women feeling they that have to live up to that "ideal" image in the media wasn't anything that I didn't already know either. I've complained about that for ages. I think it's a bad situation that makes life harder for both sexes. However, the compulsion to conform to that image is the WOMAN'S problem. Not ours. Why should we have to compensate for it and change our lives? If you're aware that this desire to conform to an image is rubbish, don't you think working on changing that perception would be more sensible than demanding that we never beat off again?

 

It's a double decker of "wrong", IMO. Women feel threatened by fake women and then also by assuming that we're somehow replacing you in favor of these fake women...when we're not. As far as we're concerned, we're just scratching our backs.

[moimeme]

GM and Dyer - and Blind O - I agree totally and completely with you.

 

Moreove, I'm sick to death of women awash in insecurity posting these 'poor-me' posts which are based not on reason or fact but on their anguish over their assumptions that they understand what goes on in men's brains. And what drives me completely up a wall is that the men will post here to talk about what they think about porn and how they view the 'porn stars' and the women will utterly ignore the truth as it's told them.

 

I'm practically ashamed to be female.

 

And as for all this foolishness about 'my right to feel bad' - go read Albert Ellis, for heaven's sakes. You manufacture your feelings by the way you think. You can fix that. You are not hapless, helpless fools who can't manage your own emotions. If you think that your SO prefers the women in porn and your SO tells you that is not the case, I do NOT agree that you have a 'right' to cling firmly to your belief which is baseless and then get angry at the man because of your belief which is baseless. You need to recognize the baselssness of your belief and dedicate yourself to dealing with the truth.

 

It's as unreasonable as being jealous when a man isn't cheating and never would. And I think that humans are obligated to try to be reasonable about everything, including emotions.

 

Sure, you can feel stupid, ugly, athletic, unappreciated, or anything. Your feelings may be based on a realistic appraisal of the situation, in which case they may be valid. OTOH, when your feelings are based on your mistaken understanding of the situation, then NO you are NOT entitled to them. What you are entitled to do is to find out the truth and then adjust yourself to act accordingly. To do otherwise is to surrender your own ability to govern yourself as a mature, emotionally developed human over to the forces of whim.

 

Oh grand psycholgy scholars, have we studied up on 'learned helplessness' yet???

 

I think a whole heck of a lot of people would do themselves a great favour by reading several Albert Ellis books and then take in a good hefty dose of the Emotional Intelligence literature. There is no need to slang men for mastUrbating to porn unless it affects your sex life (and I don't mean because you're being sulky about it). There is a need to learn and comprehend how the world really works and act accordingly. And part of that includes comprehending that other human beings are not you and therefore do not think exactly as you do, meaning that if looking at a porn star would be 'personal' to YOU during your self-delighting, that does NOT mean that it is 'personal' to every other living mortal, least of all your SO. Newsflash: people don't think alike.

 

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[moimeme]

I particularly enjoy it when an admitted porn user encourages women to be angry and upset at men who use porn.

cough (hypocrisy, anybody?) cough

[RowanRavyn]

Your feelings are your feelings.

 

You have your standards. I would suggest however, if you knew about this going into the relationship and some how thought you could change it, then you have done yourself and your lover an injustice.

 

Either you accept who your partner is, or you don't.

 

Me, I don't mind the porn. I think women get way too worked up over it. I get annoyed that everyone wants to pin it with the title addiction to add a dramatic overtone to their own insecurities.

 

I doubt that either of us even look at it once a month. When it isn't an issue...it won't be an issue.

[moimeme]

(Rational-Emotive Behaviour Therapy) gives (people) full leeway to feel strong negative emotions, such as sorrow, regret, displeasure, annoyance, rebellion, and determination to change social conditions. It believes, however, that when they experience certain self-defeating and unhealthy emotions (such as panic, depression, worthlessness, or rage), they are usually adding an unrealistic and illogical hypothesis to their empirically-based view that their own acts or those of others are reprehensible or inefficient and that something would better be done about changing them.

 

From: 12 IRRATIONAL IDEAS THAT CAUSE AND SUSTAIN NEUROSIS

 

(12) The idea that we have virtually no control over our emotions and that we cannot help feeling disturbed about things — instead of the idea that we have real control over our destructive emotions if we choose to work at changing the musturbatory hypotheses which we often employ to create them.

http://www.rebt.org/dr/pamphletofthemonth.asp

 

See also:

http://www.general-semantics.org/library/ellis.htm

[FairyTail]

Grinning Maniac -- I'm so pleased that we can speak as rational human beings. And I want to say that I understand your points and completely agree with you. Now, some people (particularly people's handles that start with "D" and/or "M") like to make presumptions about my posts and like to fill in the holes with their own ideas or they simply can't tell that I'm attempting to be empathetic and explain why I think other people think the way they do.

 

But, moving on...

 

I certainly agree with you -- why CAN'T women try to change as much as they wish men to? Relationships are about compromise, not trying to fit into another's standards. Perhaps women should stop trying to just "burn the bridge," if you will, and attempt to give their partner's mental wiring and view points a try.

 

And I also believe that many women need to break out of that "wanting-to-be-the-perfect-woman" mentality, as well. I guess most women probably just want to be the best to their man -- no stranger to be superior in any way. But, then again...this is where the compromise comes in.

 

You made some good points, and I appreciate your input -- I certainly learned something today.

 

Moimeme -- Ummm...your psychoanalysis garbage isn't going to make any points with me, if I'm one of the "psychology scholars" you speak of. I'm a behaviorist (though, not necessarily by choice). I don't think you quite understand what learned helplessness is unless you're trying WAY too hard to relate it to what you're saying. Learned helplessness is basically when one's avoidance behaviors are not always, always, always reinforced, so the organism will stop trying -- for example, a rat tries to push a lever to avoid an electric shock, but randomly gets shock even if he pushes the lever; eventually, the rat stops even trying to push the lever.

 

Furthermore, if you are so sick of "women awash in insecurity posting these 'poor-me' posts which are based not on reason or fact but on their anguish over their assumptions that they understand what goes on in men's brains," then perhaps you should stop seeking out the posts, making nasty remarks to them, or stop posting in this forum AT ALL. All you seem to want to do is show just how much of a bitch you can be and try to make people feel bad about themselves. Yay for you! If you're so sick of it, DON'T READ IT!

[dyermaker]

The reason is simple--there have been a few people on this forum who post irrationally about pornography, have the errors of their destructive actions pointed out, and resolve to change. Sometimes they put up a fight, but the point is that there have been people not so wrapped up in themselves that they are willing to take advice. They're willing to, for example, recognize that men know a lot more about men's thoughts than they do.

 

Most, sadly, simply come here for validation, and often get it. Calling Moi a bitch doesn't reduce the truthfulness and relevance of her advice. What's truly unfortunate, is that some posters give poor advice deliberately with the hopes of endearing themselves to you. Gross, I'd be happy to be counted among the bitches before I sink to such a level.

[immoralist]

Furthermore, if you are so sick of "women awash in insecurity posting these 'poor-me' posts which are based not on reason or fact but on their anguish over their assumptions that they understand what goes on in men's brains," then perhaps you should stop seeking out the posts, making nasty remarks to them, or stop posting in this forum AT ALL. All you seem to want to do is show just how much of a bitch you can be and try to make people feel bad about themselves. Yay for you! If you're so sick of it, DON'T READ IT!

 

 

You go, girl!

[moimeme]

All you seem to want to do is show just how much of a bitch you can be and try to make people feel bad about themselves

 

Some people actually understand what I'm posting and why. Some even manage to read the 'psychoanalysis garbage' which is NOT mine but the writing of an eminent psychologist (since you're studying psych, presumably you will eventually acquaint yourself with more than one theory) , apply it to their lives, and become happier as a result. And that is why I post what I post. To the rest, oh well. Continue to wallow in misery and be encouraged in same by Adultery Champion if you really enjoy it so much.

 

I thought behaviourism was pretty much discounted by newer and much much better theories since it is far too simplistic to really be useful for humans. We're a little ways past the animal phase after all. But I guess if someone insists on believing that humans are hapless critters that respond to ringing bells and electric shocks, that person is welcome to assume that humans are unable to learn to analyze and correct feelings that cause them problems. Fortunately, not everyone thinks so little of people.

 

The deepest and most complex reason for behaviorism's demise is its commitment to the thesis that behavior can be explained without reference to mental activity. Many philosophers and psychologists find this thesis hopelessly restrictive. They reject behaviorism because of it. At the lunch table, for instance, I recognize a situation in which I am presented with apples as a situation in which I am presented with apples and I form concepts of apples, sort apples into classes (e.g. ripe and unripe), and draw upon those classifications as the situation permits, eating a ripe apple and avoiding unripe apples. Recognizing, conceptually sorting, and drawing upon are information processing activities which take place inside my head -- in my mind. These events are not (overt) behavior, although they may be revealed or expressed in behavior and reference to them helps to explain behavior.

 

Contemporary philosophy and psychology largely share Hempel's conviction that the explanation of behavior cannot omit invoking a creature's representation of its world. Psychology must use psychological terms. Behavior without representation is blind. Psychological theorizing without reference to internal processing is explanatorily impaired. Behaviorism, not cognitive science or psychology, offers a misleading account of what is inside the head.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/behaviorism/#7

[Grinning Maniac]

IMO, Moi made a lot of good points in her earlier post. I'm wondering why the whole thing got pretty much ignored. What seemed to me like a logical and honest post, basically got no more of a response than:

 

"Well if it bothers you, don't read it!! BEYOTCH!"

and

"You go, girl!!!"

 

 

...That's it? That's the retort? Did I miss something? About "not reading it", that idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How can you even know that the opinions in a thread will rub you the wrong way until *after* you read them? Will anyone even realistically shy away from an entire internet-forum because they run the risk of actually... disagreeing with someone? On the other side of the coin, the whole concept of "don't read it/leave" really says to me:

 

"If you dislike my point of view, just go away, because *I* have a right to say what I please...not you."

 

When you post a thread, you'll get many different opinions. If you're expecting them all to be similar to yours, or even sugar-coated...good luck with that. If you disagree with someone, don't you think it would be wiser to actually refute their claims instead of just being dismissive? o_O

 

Just a thought. Glad we saw eye-to-eye on something earlier though. Laters.

 

PS: Yeah Dyer...count me into the "bitch" crowd as well. Um...well whatever the guy equivalent to that might be.

[immoralist]

Yeah, what an open-minded group. Give me a fu#king break. The porn fanboys and fangirls will brook no meaningful debate on this issue (or any issue for that matter). It's the Stalinist wing of LoveShack.

[zara]

Originally posted by immoralist

Yeah, what an open-minded group. Give me a fu#king break. The porn fanboys and fangirls will brook no meaningful debate on this issue (or any issue for that matter). It's the Stalinist wing of LoveShack.

lol! well said!

[Grinning Maniac]

@sinzara: I think you two can stop mentally jerking each other off now...

 

The porn fanboys and fangirls will brook no meaningful debate on this issue (or any issue for that matter).

 

But...somehow, I've managed to do exactly that for quite a while. Funny that. I probably skim over your posts too sometimes, no big deal.

 

By the way, I'm curious about something, how does being of the opinion that for the most part, guys masturbate occasionally and that it's perfectly healthy, make someone a "porn fanboy/fangirl"? A person can only be either the type that's vehemently against pornography, or the type that makes shrines to porn in their basement? That's kind of a big jump, don't you think? Maybe you need to re-evaluate your defination of "fanboy". Try some comic-book movie forums perhaps. In any case, I always thought that I was just in the "Eh. Nothin' wrong with it" crowd. I wish someone had let me know earlier that I had been recategorized...

 

One more thing. Are the people who dislike porn, let alone the ones who actually start the "my boyfriend looks @ porn" threads REALLY providing a lot of deep, thought-provoking debate material themselves? I'm sorry, I must have missed those threads...

[ollydolly]

Originally posted by Grinning Maniac

 

 

By the way, I'm curious about something, how does being of the opinion that for the most part, guys masturbate occasionally and that it's perfectly healthy, make someone a "porn fanboy/fangirl"?

(

 

Because if it's only occasional, boys don't argue this one as vehemently as you do maniac.

[Grinning Maniac]

You're wrong, sorry. I argue it so vehemently because there are an endless flow of threads here by women stating the same misconceptions and insecurities, over and over again...and I'm tired of people getting it so wrong. It's pretty frustrating to see a bunch of chicks reinforcing their empty ideas of how men think, in spite of a bunch of men *telling* them how we think.

 

Just because I disagree with guys being stoned for masturbation, doesn't mean that I beat off 10 times a day and worship at The Church of Clear Heels. I argue a *lot* of things vehemently. Why? Because I think that they're WRONG. It doesn't mean that I do so out of a personal interest. I happen to think homosexuals being beaten to death with aluminum bats "in the name of the Lord" is wrong, and it doesn't mean that I have a craving for meat-pole. I happen to be against rape, but that doesn't mean I've been molested by a pack of bull-dykes at knifepoint. I think the mass whoring of hip-hop is disgusting, and it's not because I'm black. It's because I think it's fake beyond belief. Since when did thinking a point of view to wrong make you the "Grand Poobah" of whatever it is you're arguing?

 

[Groovy]

Quite a few people have said it's important if it matters to you.

 

I know my sister who married the church deacon and waited til marraige to have sex would never want a porn watching guy jerking off. Me, I could care less if he wants to cum to porn. Even my grandpa read porn and probably did stuff with it. But he was a great kind and faithful husband for 60 years!

 

We all have what is important to us and what we need. I have dated a guy who told me he had to have a visual. I didn't think much of it because men are so much more visual than women.

[ollydolly]

Some of us not so empty headed chicks think what we think because we HAVE listened to what men tell us. We've listened real good.

[immoralist]

I argue it so vehemently because there are an endless flow of threads here by women stating the same misconceptions and insecurities, over and over again...and I'm tired of people getting it so wrong.

 

 

Why must porn-victimized women be lumped together as suffering from "misconceptions" and "insecurities" and faulted for "getting it so wrong"?

 

Why this lambasting condescension, which trivializes their concerns, mocks their anxieties and skewers their suffering?

 

These women suffer enough hurtful invalidation at home with their hubby/bf whacking-off to porn every waking moment. To get mugged by LoveShack's "Porn Posse" when they dare to express grief and anger over losing their man to obsessive porn stroking is piling on.

 

Let these women be.

[ollydolly]

Originally posted by Grinning Maniac

I argue a *lot* of things vehemently. Why? Because I think that they're WRONG. It doesn't mean that I do so out of a personal interest.

 

Comeon Maniac - most of us argue things most vehemently when we are personally moved to do so - and you never let a porn-post pass you by. Neither do I, but then this topic has been personal for me, and I am appalled at the amount of self justification that men do about this when they ****ing know it can damage the most confident woman's self esteem. What makes you cum reflects you. Simple.

[dyermaker]

immoralist, I admire the Devil's advocate. He's entertaining.

 

But he should stick to the abstract. These are real people you're validating.

[Grinning Maniac]

Originally posted by immoralist

porn-victimized women

 

That's just too good... I can't even think of a way to make that funnier than it already is, I'm sorry.

 

Originally posted by immoralist

Why must porn-victimized women be lumped together as suffering from "misconceptions" and "insecurities" and faulted for "getting it so wrong"?

 

1) Because, generally, the motivations which they assume are driving their SO's, turn out to be completely baseless. That seems like misconception to me.

 

2) Because a large number of the women creating these threads have admitted to feeling "threatened" by porn, and feeling that they don't "match up" to a "standard" that they have only put upon themselves. Seen any threads lately where the TS has mentioned that they don't feel as "pretty" as the porn broads or "enough" for their guy? Survey says: insecurity.

 

3) ...Because they tend be be getting upset for the wrong reasons, and/or for situations that most likely don't even exist. (i.e. "Will my bf want to leave me for a pron star??!?!?" )

 

Furthermore...as a man, why are you not asking why all men who look at porn are being lumped together as "addicts" and/or "cheaters" who don't love the women they're with?

 

 

Originally posted by immoralist

Why this lambasting condescension, which trivializes their concerns, mocks their anxieties and skewers their suffering?

 

Because sometimes... their concerns actually are trivial, their anxieties deserve to be mocked, and their suffering is self-sustaining. Sometimes you have to have a sense of humor about the situation.

 

Originally posted by immoralist

These women suffer enough hurtful invalidation at home with their hubby/bf whacking-off to porn every waking moment. To get mugged by LoveShack's "Porn Posse" when they dare to express grief and anger over losing their man to obsessive porn stroking is piling on.

 

Let these women be.

 

Hey Sinner, have you ever been mistaken for a man? [obvious Aliens rip]

 

Have you noticed that when a person comes to LS with a legitimate issue about this subject, all of my sarcasm stops? No smug remarks, no jokes. I give honest advice. That being said, how often does that situation actually come up? It's like a hunter's moon. The ratio of women with literally porn-obsessed SO's who jerk themselves raw and ignore sex completely, to women who just think "porn is icky", have SO's who bang them on a regular basis, have a wank anywhere from "occasionally" to "rarely", yet are treated and shamed as if they are The Antichrist, is really uneven one.

 

This is far from being a forum full of martyrs. Besides, if they didn't want to hear honest opinions they wouldn't post here would they? Or alternatively, they could just add a postscript of "Please just stroke my ego and tell me what I want to hear" and I'd shut up completely.

[immoralist]

What makes you cum reflects you. Simple.

 

I don't know if I totally agree, but that's a great epigram.

 

Nice writing.

[moimeme]

as a man, why are you not asking why all men who look at porn are being lumped together as "addicts" and/or "cheaters" who don't love the women they're with?

 

Make that 'as a man who has admitted to enjoying porn', please.

 

There's a nine-letter word starting with H which will answer your question, GM.