not everyone who smiles at you is your friend

[ComingInHot]

I like what Felicity wrote yet I question which part IS Denial. Hayley freely admits she has created these false relationships w/Only "weak" (I choose the word trusting*) people, Knowing what she is doing is or could hurt them. However I don't believe it is Hurting THEM that is her genuine concern (maybe that's the denial part??) But rather Hurting the world of seeming comfort & security.

 

I mean think about it... she has worked HARD to get her world "just so". It would be a shame for her to see it blow up and then having to re create it all over again.?.?..

 

Thus her reality becomes what she fears the most.

[Sub]

Appealing to a person without authentic guilt or empathy guilt emotions through the use of drama, emotion, and guilt in a post is not going to move them. And I would postulate that using a lot of really big words that we learned in freshman psychology isn't going to impress them either.

 

I agree with this. I also feel like the OP uses it as a fall back, in a way. She's being called a sociopath, openly wonders if she may in fact be a sociopath, then just uses it to rationalize what she's doing. Like, "What can I do? I'm a sociopath." And then just goes about her business.

[velvette]

This thread is interesting to me because even though I DO feel remorse, empathy, pain over the things I have done and DON'T ever want to do them again....I can kind of see haleym's point, especially about psychobabble. Part of me always kind of starts smirking and chuckling when the really big and really flowery psychological complexity stuff starts appearing. I think most of us are so terrified of the implications that there are people like haley is claiming to be exist that we have written mountains of books to come up with reasons they can't possibly "really" be that way.

 

Appealing to a person without authentic guilt or empathy guilt emotions through the use of drama, emotion, and guilt in a post is not going to move them. And I would postulate that using a lot of really big words that we learned in freshman psychology isn't going to impress them either.

 

This is another example of trying to manipulate the reality that is into the reality we want it to be so that we can feel more comfortable.

 

In other words, I read haley's posts as very matter of fact and that she is somewhat fascinated with how she knows she "should" feel, but none of the emotional pleas or dramatic denigrations are really going to "DO" anything.

 

I understand what you are saying, but much of what you are labeling psychobabble is the reality of how some victims of childhood abuse behave in order to cope with their trauma.

 

I think we all know it wont "do" anything. Hayley will not change until she is ready/feels strong enough or until life throws her enough curveballs that her current coping strategy no longer works and she has no choice.

 

My guess is she currently feels "stronger" because of her relationship with MM. Its giving her what we all want. To be known/accepted for who we really are. They are two wounded souls validating each other. That empowers her at some level and gives her hope she might be able to be who she really is. She's imo looking around, feeling that out, seeing what it might look like?

 

Her therapist was either not that good or too scary for Hayley. Shes going it on her own as usual because she only feels safe trusting herself.

[felicity1]

I suffered extensive child sexual abuse by both my maternal and paternal grandfathers. I can compare myself to Hayley as I was in denial about my abuse ie:not being able to acknowledge that the abuse affected me, for most of my life. I was living in a hell. It was only after I suffered a nervous breakdown that I was forced to face my past. This may sound cliched, but it is in fact so that a person in denial cannot function healthily in society. So I write from personal experience, not from what I learnt in school.

 

People who have suffered child abuse, will often keep recreating dysfunction in their lives(like Hayley) as a subconcsious way of trying to make sense of their abuse.

[felicity1]

This thread is interesting to me because even though I DO feel remorse, empathy, pain over the things I have done and DON'T ever want to do them again....I can kind of see haleym's point, especially about psychobabble. Part of me always kind of starts smirking and chuckling when the really big and really flowery psychological complexity stuff starts appearing. I think most of us are so terrified of the implications that there are people like haley is claiming to be exist that we have written mountains of books to come up with reasons they can't possibly "really" be that way.

 

Appealing to a person without authentic guilt or empathy guilt emotions through the use of drama, emotion, and guilt in a post is not going to move them. And I would postulate that using a lot of really big words that we learned in freshman psychology isn't going to impress them either.

 

This is another example of trying to manipulate the reality that is into the reality we want it to be so that we can feel more comfortable.

 

In other words, I read haley's posts as very matter of fact and that she is somewhat fascinated with how she knows she "should" feel, but none of the emotional pleas or dramatic denigrations are really going to "DO" anything.

 

Allowing the effects of child abuse to run your life is no way to live.

[janedoe67]

I agree it is no way to live, but I also. Know that only the prison lving that way can decide to live differently. And when defenses are not only high but also highly intellectualized, a person detached from their emotions will be amused when others tell them "this is how you feel."

[velvette]

I agree it is no way to live, but I also. Know that only the prison lving that way can decide to live differently. And when defenses are not only high but also highly intellectualized, a person detached from their emotions will be amused when others tell them "this is how you feel."

 

Perhaps, but Hayley is too smart to altogether discard the info people are giving her. She knows at some level its true.

 

She's just not ready to deal with it. Maybe she never will be. The only way she will be able to feel the normal range of emotions most feel will be to go back in time and allow herself to feel and process the emotions she felt as a child when she was abused. Likely she will need a therapist who can go there with her and help her come out a fully formed adult instead of a child in an adults body.

 

She wants this info imo or she wouldn't be here. Shes already tried therapy. It didn't work. She is still trying to figure it out.

 

Why wouldn't people give her the info to do that? We're not harmed by her amusement if that's what she's feeling.

[hayleym]

 

No, you're trying to convince yourself that you don't feel guilty/bad. Otherwise why did you post?

 

Maybe. I don't think so. I have felt fear. I don't want to get caught and have experienced some nervousness about that and maybe some paranoia but I wouldn't call it guilt. Because as long as me and him are in contact and both know how the other is feeling and we know we've covered our tracks I feel very content.

I can talk to her or my husband within less than hour after sleeping with him and feel no different at all than I other wise would, as long as I know nobody knows its happened.

 

A couple times things got risky and I thought I was overwhelmed with guilt, I would feel physically sick, and my head would be playing movies about getting walked in on or being discovered, then when I found out nobody knew and we were still safe, and as time went on, those feelings didnt appear to me, to be what a guilty person would feel.

Shame maybe, fear. But I don't feel guilty or bad as long as I know this is a secret. If anything I feel excitement.

 

Again I don't want to sound mean. It's natural for me in life to water down everything I say and make it sound sweeter and warmer. I have no done that here. I'm just saying exactly how the thoughts come to me. Because I really am I intrigued by how other people work and think. I want to know why I'm different.

 

This has been going on for over two years. I'm not in a fog.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I agree about recreating abuse for a childhood abuse survivor. I know I did it, in my first marriage. I had to also accept that I put myself there.

 

And that was the most hurt I ever was. I let myself down. I participated in the abuse of me. Don't get me wrong, his abuse was his to own, but for me..I was no longer a child...I had choice....something I didn't have as a child. I chose to stay much much longer than I ever should have. I have forgiven myself..knowing...my "tolerate benchmark" was skewed.

 

Unfortunately, pain...can feel comfortable. Its like a pacifier to an abuse victim...its familiar. It can also validate...that you are worth hurting must mean that you are worthy....or different.

 

Also, Hayley...I remember the abuse in the third person. When I recall any bits of it that are left....its from across the room. Like it was happening to someone else...I mean..I know it was me....but then again it wasnt me. There was the core of me...that I protected. My best friend was always myself as a child. I had friends...but no one knew the horrors of my home. I was good at hiding. I was good at protecting...little alwaysgrowing. I learned to self soothe...tell myself it would be okay...even when I knew it wouldn't. I had no one comforting me. Only me.

 

I wish you were able to see...that you are now abusing Hayley. You do not have your own back. You are sitting back watching yourself self destruct all the good that you have built. You are selling out your integrity, self respect, self worth.

 

For me...when I let myself hurt me...that is when I knew I needed complete change. I hurt littlealwaysgrowing. I know what she went through...and that was unforgivable to me.

 

I read these boards...and wonder...how often do people really put themselves in other peoples shoes. How would one feel, knowing that they are helping to betray a CSA survivor...a person who has already suffered greatly at the hands of another. How would they feel about themselves now. What does that say about them?

[hayleym]

In you, there is an inner desire to heal and face the pain of your childhood. But simultaneously, your protective defences(the truth is too painful to face) squash down this desire, hence your seeming insensitivities. This is the state of denial.

 

I agree it's possible. This post and those from cominginhot.

 

I feel like my emotions were real at one point in my life and then it became necessary to fake them and watch what other people did it were expected to do, so I just acted out those emotions and feelings. I do it well.

 

People say those around me must suspect, but all they suspect is that I'm a high functioning woman with ADHD.

[AlwaysGrowing]

And as far as being able to do something that most would find horrific, then carry on. Its a skill learned during the abuse. It is a way to deflect that what happened...really did just happen. And boy, do we get good at that.

 

Not letting people get a read on us...yup...such a good tool. Imagine..a child being able to fool so many adults...very powerful.

[hayleym]

This thread is interesting to me because even though I DO feel remorse, empathy, pain over the things I have done and DON'T ever want to do them again....I can kind of see haleym's point, especially about psychobabble. Part of me always kind of starts smirking and chuckling when the really big and really flowery psychological complexity stuff starts appearing. I think most of us are so terrified of the implications that there are people like haley is claiming to be exist that we have written mountains of books to come up with reasons they can't possibly "really" be that way.

 

Appealing to a person without authentic guilt or empathy guilt emotions through the use of drama, emotion, and guilt in a post is not going to move them. And I would postulate that using a lot of really big words that we learned in freshman psychology isn't going to impress them either.

 

This is another example of trying to manipulate the reality that is into the reality we want it to be so that we can feel more comfortable.

 

In other words, I read haley's posts as very matter of fact and that she is somewhat fascinated with how she knows she "should" feel, but none of the emotional pleas or dramatic denigrations are really going to "DO" anything.

 

Exactly. I can read these posts just as matter of fact as I wrote them. It doesn't affect me like people might assume it should. fascinated, entertained, curious and interested are correct words, I wonder why I feel the way I do a lot, or DON'T feel the way I should, the way I'm supposed to. Some times I feel angry and confused but not guilty.

 

I'm not writing just for kicks. I read and have written elsewhere over the years.

 

Sometimes I think I'm waiting for the moment I click and feel like everyone else. Been curious and almost waiting for that moment for most of my life. I don't think it's likely to ever happen but doesn't stop me from looking.

 

But I don't really care to change it, I'm comfortable.

[hayleym]

I agree with this. I also feel like the OP uses it as a fall back, in a way. She's being called a sociopath, openly wonders if she may in fact be a sociopath, then just uses it to rationalize what she's doing. Like, "What can I do? I'm a sociopath." And then just goes about her business.

 

I don't know if I use it as an excuse. If this ever came out in real life I would NEVER bring up my past abuse or that I think I may have a damaged personality as why I made the choices I did. Even if they are a big reason why, that would be said.

 

We planned out what we will say.

 

I would much rather be seen as a bitch and a liar than a victim.

 

I will never discuss my past as having anything to do with this at all. Ever.

[hayleym]

I suffered extensive child sexual abuse by both my maternal and paternal grandfathers. I can compare myself to Hayley as I was in denial about my abuse ie:not being able to acknowledge that the abuse affected me, for most of my life. I was living in a hell. It was only after I suffered a nervous breakdown that I was forced to face my past. This may sound cliched, but it is in fact so that a person in denial cannot function healthily in society. So I write from personal experience, not from what I learnt in school.

 

People who have suffered child abuse, will often keep recreating dysfunction in their lives(like Hayley) as a subconcsious way of trying to make sense of their abuse.

 

How many years later? I've said the nervous breakdown thing to myself in the past, when ill get overwhelming moments of anger or where I cry and shake, but I think sometimes even those emotions aren't really real. I can't explain it.

 

It's been 15 years since I was removed from the situation and the abuse although really bad only last a few years.

 

I can't forget what happened because I have physical scars I can see to prove it, but I have lied so many times to so many people about where those scars come from I think I convinced myself too. Same with the scars you can't see, I made up stories for every one.

[Sub]

Sometimes I think I'm waiting for the moment I click and feel like everyone else. Been curious and almost waiting for that moment for most of my life. I don't think it's likely to ever happen but doesn't stop me from looking.

 

You're wasting your time. Stop waiting. There is no one way that everyone else feels. You just need to realize what you're doing is hurting people you care about - husband, kids, OM's wife. Or, at the very least, is keeping you from being an even better wife, mother, and friend.

[hayleym]

Perhaps, but Hayley is too smart to altogether discard the info people are giving her. She knows at some level its true.

 

She's just not ready to deal with it. Maybe she never will be. The only way she will be able to feel the normal range of emotions most feel will be to go back in time and allow herself to feel and process the emotions she felt as a child when she was abused. Likely she will need a therapist who can go there with her and help her come out a fully formed adult instead of a child in an adults body.

 

She wants this info imo or she wouldn't be here. Shes already tried therapy. It didn't work. She is still trying to figure it out.

 

Why wouldn't people give her the info to do that? We're not harmed by her amusement if that's what she's feeling.

 

How does a person do that?? How would you go back and relive things like that and what good what it do at all. I felt sick even imagining that.

[hayleym]

I agree about recreating abuse for a childhood abuse survivor. I know I did it, in my first marriage. I had to also accept that I put myself there.

 

And that was the most hurt I ever was. I let myself down. I participated in the abuse of me. Don't get me wrong, his abuse was his to own, but for me..I was no longer a child...I had choice....something I didn't have as a child. I chose to stay much much longer than I ever should have. I have forgiven myself..knowing...my "tolerate benchmark" was skewed.

 

Unfortunately, pain...can feel comfortable. Its like a pacifier to an abuse victim...its familiar. It can also validate...that you are worth hurting must mean that you are worthy....or different.

 

Also, Hayley...I remember the abuse in the third person. When I recall any bits of it that are left....its from across the room. Like it was happening to someone else...I mean..I know it was me....but then again it wasnt me. There was the core of me...that I protected. My best friend was always myself as a child. I had friends...but no one knew the horrors of my home. I was good at hiding. I was good at protecting...little alwaysgrowing. I learned to self soothe...tell myself it would be okay...even when I knew it wouldn't. I had no one comforting me. Only me.

 

I wish you were able to see...that you are now abusing Hayley. You do not have your own back. You are sitting back watching yourself self destruct all the good that you have built. You are selling out your integrity, self respect, self worth.

 

For me...when I let myself hurt me...that is when I knew I needed complete change. I hurt littlealwaysgrowing. I know what she went through...and that was unforgivable to me.

 

I read these boards...and wonder...how often do people really put themselves in other peoples shoes. How would one feel, knowing that they are helping to betray a CSA survivor...a person who has already suffered greatly at the hands of another. How would they feel about themselves now. What does that say about them?

 

So you go back and talk about the actual abuse with someone and try to feel the feelings?

I could never do that. Would never want to.

 

Yes I think about it like it was someone else. As I'm writing I can see it happening to her. It's always like watching it.

 

Most of my memories the rest of my life, even up to yesterday are like that too.

[hayleym]

You're wasting your time. Stop waiting. There is no one way that everyone else feels. You just need to realize what you're doing is hurting people you care about - husband, kids, OM's wife. Or, at the very least, is keeping you from being an even better wife, mother, and friend.

 

I play the role of wife mother and friend very very well. People love that character, they are all happy and I am not the cause of anyone's stress, that they know of, I get that indirectly I am. But the character I play is very important to me and I do it well.

The people in my life are really happy.

[felicity1]

And when defenses are not only high but also highly intellectualized, a person detached from their emotions will be amused when others tell them "this is how you feel."

 

A person detached from their emotions are amused when others try to confront them with reality/truth because the truth is too painful to face/look at. For example, my own mother laughs at the fact that I was abused b/c she can't face the truth, so she uses humour as a defense to avoid the real facts. She feels guilty for not protecting me when I was a child and this guilt is so painful, that she laughs it off. This is how denial turns a normal feeling person into a sociopath.

[AlwaysGrowing]

No, I never went back to relive it. I had to have help to process it. I had to figure out how it affected me. I had to root out the unhealthy coping mechanisms that came into play...as self protection. How to know when they were hindering my life or helping me.

 

I had to figure out who I really am...minus the abuse. You know...no longer having to mimic what I thought I was supposed to be.

[felicity1]

How many years later? I've said the nervous breakdown thing to myself in the past, when ill get overwhelming moments of anger or where I cry and shake, but I think sometimes even those emotions aren't really real. I can't explain it.

 

It's been 15 years since I was removed from the situation and the abuse although really bad only last a few years.

 

I can't forget what happened because I have physical scars I can see to prove it, but I have lied so many times to so many people about where those scars come from I think I convinced myself too. Same with the scars you can't see, I made up stories for every one.

 

I broke down when I was 26 and then again at 36. The second one totally knocked me out. I knew I wouldn't come around until I did some serious reflection on my past. Support groups have been the most helpful for me. It can be tricky finding a good therapist.

 

When you look at yourself you can see that your life is in turmoil, but then you say "but it works for me this way". This is denial. This is how I lead my life for 36 years, in total dysfunction. When I began talking to people who had also been abused, I started making connections between my childhood trauma and my "insane" adult life. It began to make sense why initially I chose to make my adult life so difficult.

[felicity1]

No, I never went back to relive it. I had to have help to process it. I had to figure out how it affected me. I had to root out the unhealthy coping mechanisms that came into play...as self protection. How to know when they were hindering my life or helping me.

 

I had to figure out who I really am...minus the abuse. You know...no longer having to mimic what I thought I was supposed to be.

 

Healing is not about reliving the trauma. To throw a tennis ball, you have to hold it in your hand first. To release pain, it needs to be acknowledged/felt first. A person cannot release their pain if they don't allow themselves to really feel it for what it is. It's not about reliving the trauma, but about feeling pain in order to give it up. But it's a continuous process of feeling and releasing, feeling and releasing and over time it slowly lessens. No one can heal from child abuse in a few therapy sessions.

[janedoe67]

I gained about 80 pounds as a result of medication and post-affair stress. My parents are both very healthy and the idea that someone who used to be fit would just....go on about life while wearing a size 18 was unfathomable to them. it also bothered them because, quite frankly, they felt very strongly that I "shouldn't" be fat. And of course, if they just explained it to me enough I would realize I was overweight, have an epiphany, and do something about it.

 

I was not an idiot, and I had several mirrors in my house. I knew I was fat. I knew that they didn't like that I was fat. I would even say I was uncomfortable being fat. But....until I decided to do something of my own volition, it worked for me. But i have to admit in a somewhat ashamed way, it was kind of intriguing and amusing the way they scrambled to deny that I could possibly have any happiness in my life with such a huge muffin top.....bottom line, my inability to fit THEIR paradigm made THEM uncomfortable, so it had to change.

 

This thread reminds me a lot of that.

 

Understand, I do not agree with adultery. I am very very saddened by the amount of hurt my own caused. But again, I also know what it is to be defined by other people because defining me their way made THEM feel better.

[felicity1]

I gained about 80 pounds as a result of medication and post-affair stress. My parents are both very healthy and the idea that someone who used to be fit would just....go on about life while wearing a size 18 was unfathomable to them. it also bothered them because, quite frankly, they felt very strongly that I "shouldn't" be fat. And of course, if they just explained it to me enough I would realize I was overweight, have an epiphany, and do something about it.

 

I was not an idiot, and I had several mirrors in my house. I knew I was fat. I knew that they didn't like that I was fat. I would even say I was uncomfortable being fat. But....until I decided to do something of my own volition, it worked for me. But i have to admit in a somewhat ashamed way, it was kind of intriguing and amusing the way they scrambled to deny that I could possibly have any happiness in my life with such a huge muffin top.....bottom line, my inability to fit THEIR paradigm made THEM uncomfortable, so it had to change.

 

This thread reminds me a lot of that.

 

Understand, I do not agree with adultery. I am very very saddened by the amount of hurt my own caused. But again, I also know what it is to be defined by other people because defining me their way made THEM feel better.

 

I think I know what you're getting at. You mean they're treating you like a scapegoat, the person who gets the blame for everything, right? Many therapists have scapegoated me.

[AlwaysGrowing]

For me....when it comes to children versus adults going through trauma...a child only knows one way...the way they are right now. For those children who then become adults..its the only way they know. They know no other way. They continue to use the same skill they used, which by the way...did work for them.. I might add...as a child. It becomes hard wired..because the wiring happened during trauma. It is much more difficult to learn new ways...or to even see that they are not working for you. Because...you always had them at the ready. ALWAYS. Pick it up....like one breaths. Don't even notice it.