No real proof - LOTS of circumstantial evidence! !

[bythesea123]

So, I don't want to type out a novel here - this is my first time on the forum. But I want to give as many details as I can, so here goes.

 

I am 31, married 6 years and together for 8. We have 5 children. My husband and I have always had a tumultuous relationship. In the very beginning, it was wonderful - no arguments, no lying (so I thought), and just a lot of fun. 2 months after we got engaged, I got pregnant, and he moved in a month after that. This is when the trouble began. He is a compulsive liar. To the point he will lie about what he had for lunch. Things that are completely insignificant. There have been 4 instances where I have had circumstantial evidence of infidelity:

1.) 8 months before our wedding I found a necklace in his pocket. He could not explain where it came from. Changed his story several times - first it was his sisters, then his mom's. It belonged to neither of them.

2.) 3 months AFTER our wedding, he went with some friends to a Muse concert in ATL. We lived in Nashville at the time. When he came home, I noticed a text from a girl: "Had a great time last night. xoxox" (He claimed she was a friend of his friend's and they all partied together. During this same trip, he wrote me a 6 page love letter that he brought home to me.)

3.)This past July he moved for a job, leaving me behind with the kids to pack up the house. We didn't move until October. Our first time to be intimate together, he couldn't get a hard on. He said: "Oh that happens a lot because of the Strattera." Only problem is that is has never happened to US before. So who has it happened with??? I asked him, and he stuttered - "oh, oh well I heard its a side effect.":rolleyes:

4.)A few days ago, I found a woman's polo from the grocery store he manages - the kind the baggers wear. I had already washed/dryed it before I realized, so there was no scent. (I have not confronted him with this yet- he will just deny)

 

 

Some more backstory:

 

He has been diagnosed with ADHD. When he is off his meds he is extremely moody and lazy. Almost bipolar.

 

I have checked his phone in the past - noticed fragmented text conversations, ie: he deleted texts. When he found out I did that, he has since then kept his phone SUPER clean. Clean to the point of suspicion.

 

We have gone to both IC and MC, as well as a church counseling program that was 7 months long.

 

I have overlooked so many things and tried so hard to make this work - I want to keep my committment, but at the same time I can barely look at him he disgusts me so much. I haven't had sex with him since the incident a month ago. I can't trust anything he says, and despite seeing counselors, him getting on meds and seeing a psychiatrist, and going to church he is still lying.

 

For those of you with cheating spouses......did you EVER get hardcore evidence? He is the kind of liar who will take this **** to his grave. He will never admit - always says he would never cheat, loves me so much, etc. He is also so hell bent on staying in this marriage....I have given him the chance to get out several times by letting him know it was ok for him to tell me if he wanted a divorce. But he refuses. I feel so apathetic at this point and I know we are circling the drain. (Or slow dancing in a burning room, a la John Mayer)

 

What did you do?? What should I do?? What I'm posting here isn't even HALF of what he's done....the main thing keeping me in this marriage at this point is my faith.

 

I feel like without hardcore, in your face evidence I can't leave him on the grounds of infidelity.... has anyone else gone through this???

 

I'm a stay at home mom - he doesn't make a whole lot of money either - so if we split, I'd be soooooo broke. With 5 kids, getting a day job is out of the question. I do have some options of starting an at home business....but I'm also supposed to go back to school in Jan to finish my degree - which is a must if I'm going to divorce him.

 

One more thing- he is actually a very good father- loving, caring, encouraging, not abusive in any way. He plays with them. Reads them books. He does not take care of them (leaves that to his stay at home slave....uh, wife) very much unless I nag on him - like diapers, baths, etc.

 

Just looking for some advice....

[harrybrown]

It is always hard about the truth or the lack of truth.

 

Good thing that you are finishing your education.

 

Some have used VARs and polygraph tests to get at the truth.

 

I do not know that much about the accuracy of the polygraph tests.

 

Get the VAR.

[d0nnivain]

If you want proof I'd hire a private investigator.

 

I'd also start saving my money & learning about child support. Have you considered going back to school on line so may be able to work while getting your degree.

[Spark1111]

A Voice Activated Recorder hidden in his car.....he has to be talking to his paramour sometimes....Check the cell phone bill and bank statements.... check for another pre-paid phone.Spyware for his phone....

 

 

Smile sweetly...

 

Hire a sitter and surprise him at work for lunch! If he is not there, wait for him at his desk...Snoop desk.

 

trust your gut and gather your evidence quietly.

[crederer]

I dunno I had circumstantial evidence before (more than you have) and when I confronted my girlfriend she acted as though it was a court of law and therefore I couldn't come to any conclusions with out hard evidence. I then explained to her that this is not in fact a court of law, this is real life, I can come to any conclusion I want and I'm leaving you.

 

However, we weren't married nor did we have kids. So it was easier to do.

[BetrayedH]

Yes, many of us have been where you are. Want to know what to do?

 

Listen to Spark's advice. Get your hard proof. Smile sweety. Play stupid. Go into investigative mode. Look, if you're going to seriously divorce this man, you're going to want to be able to look anyone in the eye and say that you KNOW he was cheating. Get your proof and be confident in your decisions. But remember that you don't have to convince him that he's cheating; he already knows. You just need to convince yourself.

 

A voice-activated-recorder for the car is standard advice. APs typically talk on the way to/from work.

 

You've already checked the phone and revealed that source; hopeully you've learned your lesson about confronting - it is counterproductive.

 

Check for discrepancies with the phone bill. Check his internet history. Check financial statements. Check his car for a second cell phone. Consider a GPS for his car; the more expensive ones can give you "live" tracking. Consider spyware for his phone and a keylogger for his computer. A PI can prove useful but can be expensive. Polygraphs are a last resort but I have tips for you on that, too.

 

Make decisions with your head, not your emotions.

[bobwhite007]

Wow I thought I was the only one. Listen to these people, don't give a clue that you suspect a thing. I didn't and now all I can do is imagine what happened/is happening. I like you can't leave without that proof. I took the vows and will stick to them untill they are proved broken. Call me old fashioned I guess. The problem is that your h like my w knows that. If yiu let on you suspect something it will be much much harder to find anything. The var is the best choice , they don't cost much maybe $40.00. Office depot is the best place to get one. The first listen will most likely tell you who . But don't loose your head and start rasin hell like I did wait till you got all the evidence you need. My w still lies to me about things that shouldn't matter, the only reason I can figure is to see what I know.anyway good luck and sstay strong in your faith.

[bythesea123]

Wow, you really chose to ignore all the red flags back in the beginning and went ahead and tied yourself good to him with 5 kids.

 

Good thing you're getting your degree - you'll need it, BytheSea.

 

You remind me alot of my girlfriend. She, too, knew her husband was a cheating liar but she just refused to make that official call until she had a smoking gun in her hands. So for 20 years, she was a nervous wreck, always trying to stay 2 steps ahead of him and constantly hearing of things he was out doing or finding phone numbers in his wallet or lipsticks in the car, and on and on and on (this was before the age of cell phones).

 

She lived that crazy existence for just over 20 years before she finally had to put an end to it or wind up in the looney bin. It seems you're doing the exact same thing and have been, for a long time.

 

I hate to say it, but I think the biggest reason your husband stays with you is because he knows he'd be living in a cardboard box down by the railroad tracks if he were to move out and have to pay child support for so many kids and spousal support since you don't work. I think he knows that financially, he'd be shooting himself in the foot if he left, so he feeds you his bullcrap about how he loves you and wants to be married - and then spends his time away from the house cheating with anyone who'll have him. The guy is a serial cheater and hasn't shown you real love in a very long time.

 

 

I think you're very smart to realize that this marriage has become a sham with his constant lying and cheating. Unless he's lobotomized, I just don't ever see him having an epiphany and becoming a decent husband. I wish you tons of luck, BytheSea.

 

 

Seriously....I read this reply and just burst into tears....because I KNOW you are right. My girlfriends thinks he stays because he knows I will stay. Even if there is no cheating, compulsive lying should be a deal breaker. I have reached my limit though - thinking about living this existence for 20 years (and yes, being a nervous wreck along with pissed off, annoyed, and HURT) makes me physically ill. I am not as old fashioned as Bob - even though I do stay home with the kids, I came to that decision on my own. I wanted to have 5 kids - I love them fiercely and wouldn't change that at all. Yes, it will make it more difficult to finish school and work.....but I'm strong enough to take on that challenge and still nuture my kids.

 

When we met, I had a really excellent job making more money than him. (In sales, I worked for Dell) The reason for finishing my degree is changing industries - I had planned to go on to med school so I need to finish up pre reqs first. However, I may have to scrap that plan and go the nursing route, and go on to do nurse practioner. That will depend on what I can do work wise.....we'll see. sigh.

 

I had a long conversation with my Dad today (my mom also cheated on him...multiple times..he hired an investigator and caught her) and he agreed with a VAR. He also felt though, that I didn't need hard evidence to leave the marriage. I'm at the point where I agree with him. Is it really worth the time and emotional exhaustion of digging to find the evidence? Maybe finding a necklace, a shirt, and texts SHOULD be enough hard evidence. A happily married man wouldn't have any reason or be in any situation where he would have those items or texts......

 

and Who Knows - the biggest reason I have stayed all this time - is he can be so charming, nice, funny, and thoughtful for these short periods of time. Blissful even. I just keep clinging to the hope that someday it won't be little pockets of time, but forever. That seems to be a fool's romantic notion. I also always believed when I got married it would be forever - I have tried very hard to honor that commitment. I appreciate all of the insight you guys have given. I need a PLAN.

[bythesea123]

If he has a smartphone, when he is sleeping download a voice recorder app. Make sure you check the settings that auto record every outgoing and incoming call. When he sleeps go into the recorded calls and listen. Or place a tape recorder in his car. Check phone bills too and bank statements.

 

Love Bites - I have checked his phone, facebook, the bills, etc.....it is CLEAN. And it's not clean in a "well I guess he's not doing anything sort of way"....it's clean as in there are literally never any texts on his phone. ANY. There are literally never any inbox messages in his Facebook. But I see him texting all the time. So he is obviously deleting this stuff as soon as it's sent/received. I made the mistake, early in the marriage, of confronting him every single time I caught him in a lie or found something suspicious. He has since learned how to be very clever in keeping these things from me. He used to only delete fragments of text conversations....now he deletes them ALL. And of course, gives me his passcode and tells me I can look anytime I want.

 

I also forgot to mention he has started in the last 3 weeks going into work early and staying late. On Saturday night, he "worked" until 2:45am.... then all day Sunday laid in bed. Complained of a headache. He said: "Man, it feels like I'm hungover...like I drank a bottle of tequila...crazy, huh?!" He looked hungover. He acted hungover.So I gave him a hug and lifted my face to smell his breath and he smelled like beer. So basically I take from that - he got drunk and lied about it. I said nothing at the time because everytime I have confronted in the past, it's been a bad outcome for me. He gaslights like no ones business.

[RightThere]

I had a long conversation with my Dad today (my mom also cheated on him...multiple times..he hired an investigator and caught her) and he agreed with a VAR.

 

Sorry to thread jack, but can I ask you how your relationship is with your mom?

 

Only reason I ask is I have a young daughter and my wife and I are divorcing due to her multiple affairs. We're both going to raise her and love her, but does knowing that about your mom damage you? I'm struggling to know if and when I'll tell my daughter the truth about why her mom and I are not together.

[bythesea123]

Yes, many of us have been where you are. Want to know what to do?

 

Listen to Spark's advice. Get your hard proof. Smile sweety. Play stupid. Go into investigative mode. Look, if you're going to seriously divorce this man, you're going to want to be able to look anyone in the eye and say that you KNOW he was cheating. Get your proof and be confident in your decisions. But remember that you don't have to convince him that he's cheating; he already knows. You just need to convince yourself.

 

A voice-activated-recorder for the car is standard advice. APs typically talk on the way to/from work.

 

You've already checked the phone and revealed that source; hopeully you've learned your lesson about confronting - it is counterproductive.

 

Check for discrepancies with the phone bill. Check his internet history. Check financial statements. Check his car for a second cell phone. Consider a GPS for his car; the more expensive ones can give you "live" tracking. Consider spyware for his phone and a keylogger for his computer. A PI can prove useful but can be expensive. Polygraphs are a last resort but I have tips for you on that, too.

 

Make decisions with your head, not your emotions.

 

 

Holy **** - a second cell?! I had not even thought of that. Maybe his job gave him one and he didn't tell me??? We just moved down here 5 weeks ago so I wouldn't know. I cannot check his internet history - he has a laptop that he keeps in his briefcase. He never leaves it unattended...he uses it for work. It even has a lock on it.

[bythesea123]

Sorry to thread jack, but can I ask you how your relationship is with your mom?

 

Only reason I ask is I have a young daughter and my wife and I are divorcing due to her multiple affairs. We're both going to raise her and love her, but does knowing that about your mom damage you? I'm struggling to know if and when I'll tell my daughter the truth about why her mom and I are not together.

 

Right There:

 

Well, that could be a whole other post in itself. In fact, I could write an 8,000 page book about my mother. She had so many affairs she became pregnant (about 2 months into their separation) and didn't know who the father was. She actually asked my Dad to drive her to the abortion clinic. She had told him before then she wanted to reconcile - it was at that point he kicked her ass to the curb officially.

 

She is a narcissist - which is why I suspect she cheated multiple times. As of today, I have been estranged from her for 2.5 years. Not spoken a word. That is not all bc of her cheating though - like I said, she is a narcissist and has treated me poorly since the day I was born. I was always striving for her approval and love - NEVER received it. I was never good enough. She was always finding some inventive and sneaky way to put me down. Which probably contributes to my self esteem issues and why I sometimes allow myself to be a doormat.

 

No worries on jacking the thread - that's a really good question. I worry about how a divorce will effect my kids as well. My parents divorce (I was 11) was a horrible experience for me.

[pteromom]

Even if there is no cheating, compulsive lying should be a deal breaker.

 

You answered your own question here. The lying alone is enough to justify divorce, no matter whether he's being faithful or not. (But I'd bet not.)

 

If you truly need "evidence", a PI is your best bet. Since your husband is "working late" every day, this is the perfect time to hire one.

 

Sure, you can do VAR and GPS and do the digging, but why put yourself through that emotional turmoil and stress? Just leave it to a professional. Since your dad has experience hiring a PI, maybe he will even help you find and hire one.

[BetrayedH]

Holy **** - a second cell?! I had not even thought of that. Maybe his job gave him one and he didn't tell me??? We just moved down here 5 weeks ago so I wouldn't know. I cannot check his internet history - he has a laptop that he keeps in his briefcase. He never leaves it unattended...he uses it for work. It even has a lock on it.

 

He could just be using a fake email account. If he uses a web browser to access something like yahoo mail, you wouldn't see texts. It would just show up as data usage. You could check his internet history but cheaters just switch over to private browsing.

 

For what it's worth, I used a GPS (about $250 retail) and caught my wife at a hotel on the first download. If he's doing the 'long hours' thing, this could give you some answers. Look up spy stores in your town.

 

And yes, you can get pre-paid cell phones at convenience stores.

[Dark_history]

First off I am sorry to hear about what you are going through, it can be really tough.

 

I am with the others in regards to the PI, let someone else gather the evidence for you. They will get everything together and show you a solid case of what is or isn't happening. If you do VAR or GPS, you are going to get bits and pieces, wondering if they connect, having to investigate on your own and yes go through the tromoil of potentially hearing your husband say things you will not like.

 

I will also touch on the fact of your career options. At this point of your life, with 5 children, I would definitely say that medical school is not an option for you now. Going to med school is a huge time commitment, and it is not just med school. You do 4 years there, and than a residency for 3 to 5 years, where you are likely to work 80 hours per week. That's 7 to 9 years of essentially working two full time jobs.

 

Lets not even go into the fact of how you may be able to juggle this with 5 children. Even if you can manage to have people watch your kids, get them to school, etc, you are going to be missing out of 7 to 9 years of your children's life. Just because you may be able to manage to do med school and get through the day, you won't be able to really spend much quality time with them.

 

I say this because I had made this decision myself. I was set to go into medical school and wanting to pursue research as well. However my wife and I had a son together after we got married (and yes, it was planned), and at the time, I was still in full speed to go to medical school. I came to the realization when my son was about 1 years old that I would be missing out on half of his childhood if I went down this path. And it just felt awful. I made a change in my major to something I could go into with a bachelor's degree and that has the potential of paying very well.

 

The nursing path could work for you, my wife is a nurse and she works just 3 days a week, doing 12 hour shifts, so she gets a lot of free time this way. The schooling part you will need support for it, but it is no where near as long as trying to become a doctor. I wish you all the best and if this does lead to divorce, try to find as much support as possible during the process, even when you know you are right, it will feel very wrong to you at times.

 

Edit: I forgot to add one last thing, about the cellphone. I know there is a cheaters app, which will send all texts and e-mails to a secure location in the phone, where only the user can access them. So your husband might be using this, which would explain why everything is so "clean", he is just having a program store this away somewhere on the phone you can not access.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Dark_history
Additional info

[Realist3]

You are looking for a problem that shows no sign of existence. I'm convinced it is a personality type. It is just the way you are. Nothing you you have said points to cheating. Investigate... do your thing.

[RightThere]

You are looking for a problem that shows no sign of existence. I'm convinced it is a personality type. It is just the way you are. Nothing you you have said points to cheating. Investigate... do your thing.

 

I could not disagree more. There are red flags everywhere. It's possible that nothing is going on.

 

But when it walks like a cheater, talks like a cheater, smells like a cheater........

[RightThere]

I forgot to add one last thing, about the cellphone. I know there is a cheaters app, which will send all texts and e-mails to a secure location in the phone, where only the user can access them. So your husband might be using this, which would explain why everything is so "clean", he is just having a program store this away somewhere on the phone you can not access.

 

Cheaters will also delete everything on their phone and make up BS excuses as to why they do it.

 

If they are deleting text messages, it's not because they like to keep their phone "clean" or trying to save on phone memory.

[Realist3]

I could not disagree more. There are red flags everywhere. It's possible that nothing is going on.

 

But when it walks like a cheater, talks like a cheater, smells like a cheater........

 

Red flags can be made out of anything. What was stated in this thread does not even reach red flag level.

[pteromom]

Red flags can be made out of anything. What was stated in this thread does not even reach red flag level.

 

You don't think that staying out "working" until 2:45AM then coming home smelling like beer is suspicious? Or that he is regularly on his phone typing but any time she looks, there is no history of texts or emails?

 

Just those two things alone are red flags, and that's just what I remembered without going back and reading through the thread.

[Dark_history]

Cheaters will also delete everything on their phone and make up BS excuses as to why they do it.

 

If they are deleting text messages, it's not because they like to keep their phone "clean" or trying to save on phone memory.

 

LOL re-read what you quoted me on, I said there are "cheater" apps, aka meaning he might have an app that specificly hides messages from anyone else. And yes this would be a really big red flag, which the OP pointed out, saying that his phone is always clean now. I was just explaining one of the possible ways he is doing it.

[RightThere]

LOL re-read what you quoted me on, I said there are "cheater" apps, aka meaning he might have an app that specificly hides messages from anyone else. And yes this would be a really big red flag, which the OP pointed out, saying that his phone is always clean now. I was just explaining one of the possible ways he is doing it.

 

Sorry. That wasn't directed at you.

 

I was just continuing on with that thought that maybe the husband isn't even that ahead of the game that he's using aps to hide his phone history. He's just deleting everything incriminating.

 

I should know. My STBXW would delete all messages from her other men, stating that "that's just always how she is. Doesn't keep anything" but somehow she never deleted anything I sent her. A flaming red flag I never questioned.

[Dark_history]

Sorry. That wasn't directed at you.

 

I was just continuing on with that thought that maybe the husband isn't even that ahead of the game that he's using aps to hide his phone history. He's just deleting everything incriminating.

 

I should know. My STBXW would delete all messages from her other men, stating that "that's just always how she is. Doesn't keep anything" but somehow she never deleted anything I sent her. A flaming red flag I never questioned.

 

No problem And yes, that would also be a huge red flag for sure.

 

OP, get a PI if you can, it will get you the information you need, especially when he is doing all these late hours and extra days of work. Also if you can, try to see if you can a paycheck stub that shows hours. Though if he is salaray based, it won't help, they pay the same amount no matter how much you work.

[bythesea123]

Red flags can be made out of anything. What was stated in this thread does not even reach red flag level.

 

I totally get it - you just want to discount my personal experience. I read some of your other replies and you tend to play devil's advocate. I agree there are a lot of people on this forum who are probably alarmists. However, I have known this man for 8 years. I have 5 children. My bull**** meter is honed to a fine point. I know when he's lying to me just as easily as I know when one of my children are lying to me. He is absolutely hiding things from me. And if finding a woman's necklace and a racy text is not a "red flag" then I don't know what the hell would be. I registered here to find others who had the same experience so I could get some advice. My hope was to find someone who was in a similar situation where the husband ended up not being a serial cheater. Everything I stated in my eyes falls into the "highly suspect circumstantial evidence" category. *ALMOST* enough to be 100% sure, but not enough to prove it.

 

This has nothing to do with my personality - I'm a very laid back, free spirited person. Probably another big part of why I have stayed with a compulsive liar for 8 years. And let things slide cuz maybe he kinda sorta didn't do anything wrong. While I appreciate the fact that you are *trying* to be helpful and are certainly entitled to your own opinion, I'd like to ask you to just get lost. Your posts are not helpful or nice. In the midst of trying to deal with my husband's increasing indifference towards our marriage and the uncertainty of a possible affair and divorce, the last thing I need is someone dismissing my observations and feelings out of hand. (whew run on sentence)

 

I WANT my marriage to work - I WANT my children to grow up in a 2 parent household (the 2 parents they were born to) - I WANT a husband I can trust implicitly with my heart, and a marriage that is full of more joy than pain. I don't have some evil desire to bust my husband cheating so I can stomp his head into the dirt or drag him through a nasty divorce.

 

Anyhow.... as for the other suggestions: I can't afford a PI right now, but I am taking the kids home to TN for Thanksgiving (10 day trip). I plan on buying a VAR and sticking it in his car somewhere. Hopefully that will give me more clarity on the affair aspect. At this point, though, I almost don't even care anymore about that. I'm more and more confident each day I want to leave just because he's a liar. I think the fact that he has most likely been unfaithful at least once or twice in our marriage is bad, but lying to your spouse on an everyday basis is much worse. I can't believe a word he says. I have always said cheating wasn't necessarily going to be a deal breaker for me. But serial cheating - yes. Compulsive lying - yes.

[bythesea123]

I could not disagree more. There are red flags everywhere. It's possible that nothing is going on.

 

But when it walks like a cheater, talks like a cheater, smells like a cheater........

 

I had this conversation with my Dad - where's there's smoke, there's usually fire. Being on the forum has really opened my eyes to the reality of cheating. Because all of the sad stories start out with red flags and intuitions. Deleted texts and working long hours. It's almost too cliche. He experienced this with my mom and had the financial means to hire a PI - busted her right away. I think I have just had blinders on for so many years....

 

I have caught him in so many lies over the years - big and small. From what he ate for lunch, to going out and partying when he was supposed to be at work. I just can't trust him at all.