an'ka Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Today my b/f mentioned something that had to do with my feminist remarks and it really made me think....He said that I confuse being feminist with being man-like. I always say things like: "Women should have the same rights as men", "It's a woman's choice either to cook, clean, do laundry for her family, if she doens't want to she shouldn't have to do it", etc. I always get very defensive about anyone's remarks about women being weaker, or less intelligent, or less capable than men. I alway try to defend women agains men. I consider myself a feminist. At the same time I expect men to be gentelmen: to open doors for women, to pay for their dates most of the times (but not always), to be able to protect a woman and take care of her. How can both of these views coexist in one person? Am I wrong for believing the two at the same time? Also, he said that I could be a feminist and at the same time be feminine. I do act a little agressive and not too feminine sometimes. He told me that he thinks I am afraid that if I'll act feminine someone will take away my human rights; it's like a defense mechanism. I'm not sure what to think of that. He makes sense. I hope I made sense too (it's late at night) Please let me know what you think about this. Any comments from men and women appreciated Thanks Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I tend to agree with your boyfriend, but I'm highly biased--I think militant feminism is highly counterproductive. The problem isn't that men and women have different roles. That's human nature. The problem is that society has chosen to value one role over another. Modern Feminism has made man the enemy, the oppressor--which probably pisses Friedan off. Feminism was never supposed to be about "defending women against men"--it was about rescuing both men and women from antiquated gender roles! Your fellow woman is equally culpable for the shackles of subjugation, if not moreso. Anyway, I see your boyfriend's point entirely. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if you want to shirk your cooking and cleaning, you oughta move your pretty little arms and open your own car door! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author an'ka Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 lol, great way to put it, dyermaker! It's crazy how I never realized that there is something wrong with my views. Live and learn every day! So, basically, if I want to have a right to do what I want and not do what I don't want, I need to stop expecting from men to be gentelmen? Or if I still want them to take care of me than I need to give up some of my rights of freedom of choice? Did I get it right? It's confusing Any other comments, please Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 At the same time I expect men to be gentelmen: to open doors for women, to pay for their dates most of the times (but not always), to be able to protect a woman and take care of her. Um. Hello? And this is 'equal' exactly how? How can both of these views coexist in one person? Am I wrong for believing the two at the same time? Do you even have to ask? Also, he said that I could be a feminist and at the same time be feminine. I do act a little agressive and not too feminine sometimes. He told me that he thinks I am afraid that if I'll act feminine someone will take away my human rights; it's like a defense mechanism. Unfortunately, a lot of women thought that to be equal to men, they had to erase their womanhood. I'm still ticked about people refusing to be called 'waitress' and 'actress'. Here's what humans need to do, no matter what the gender: treat each other with respect, be fair, be reasonable, negotiate win-win solutions to problems. There's nothing to be lost by being fully what you are. Where you lose is pretending to be what you're not - that right there shows that you think what you are is inferior. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I'm all for chick self-empowerment, but I draw the line at calling myself a "feminist," because to me that brings up images of angry women getting into other people's space, demanding to be noticed and appreciated for what they do/are -- and they're very loud, at that! makes me think that they don't feel validated unless they force their opinions on another .... he said that I could be a feminist and at the same time be feminine I think a lot of those angry women mentioned above seem to feel that if they do show a softer side, they won't be taken seriously. showing the strength under your velvet outer layer on an as-needed basis is a more honest call for respect than just jumping in someone's face and demanding it, you know? At the same time I expect men to be gentelmen: to open doors for women, to pay for their dates most of the times (but not always), to be able to protect a woman and take care of her. How can both of these views coexist in one person? Am I wrong for believing the two at the same time? "manners maketh man" Sting sings in "Englishman in New York," and I think that applies to humankind in general. It's really not a show of might or prowess that garners respect, but how one treats others. So, wanting your guy to hold the door open for you (or even leave the toilet seat down) isn't really any different from treating him with respect as he'd hope to see it because he knows you're capable of giving it. And that has nothing to do with being sexist, but everything to do with being compassionate and sensitive to another's needs for that basic respect. gah! time for bed, I'm starting to not make sense now! Link to post Share on other sites
Author an'ka Posted December 20, 2004 Author Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme Um. Hello? And this is 'equal' exactly how? Do you even have to ask? Please, let's try to be understanding. I know that my thinking is wrong and I already realized that it doesn't make sense. That's why I posted my thoughts here in order to be able to fix my flaws, see what other people have to say, and grow as a person I just know that many women are confused about this issue. So maybe if we talk about this issue and hear each other out we could benefit from it and build stronger, less biased values. (at least I could for sure) please, more comments Link to post Share on other sites
reasontosigh Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by quankanne gah! time for bed, I'm starting to not make sense now! Made sense to me - does that mean I should be fluffing up the bed pillows too?? Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by an'ka So, basically, if I want to have a right to do what I want and not do what I don't want, I need to stop expecting from men to be gentelmen? Or if I still want them to take care of me than I need to give up some of my rights of freedom of choice? Did I get it right? Are you being tongue-in-cheek? I'd never want for you to abandon your rights, nor would I want you to stop expecting decent behavior. It's your views that you should abandon. To be as clear as possible, at the expense of being nice about it, your views on the entire issue are stupid. You're creating an artificial gender line--thinking that somehow it's men and their behavior that are holding you back from female empowerment. Link to post Share on other sites
RowanRavyn Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker I tend to agree with your boyfriend, but I'm highly biased--I think militant feminism is highly counterproductive. The problem isn't that men and women have different roles. That's human nature. The problem is that society has chosen to value one role over another. Nicely put Dyer. I appreciate general kindness. Especially these days when I am having general difficulty getting around at all. I hold the door open for whomever is walking in behind me its simply the right thing to do. When someone obviously need the seat on BART worse than me I get up. I adore my father in law because he enjoys being a "gentleman", and is always pleasantly shocked that I "allow" him to. Link to post Share on other sites
HokeyReligions Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by an'ka Today my b/f mentioned something that had to do with my feminist remarks and it really made me think....He said that I confuse being feminist with being man-like. I always say things like: "Women should have the same rights as men", "It's a woman's choice either to cook, clean, do laundry for her family, if she doens't want to she shouldn't have to do it", etc. I always get very defensive about anyone's remarks about women being weaker, or less intelligent, or less capable than men. I alway try to defend women agains men. I consider myself a feminist. At the same time I expect men to be gentelmen: to open doors for women, to pay for their dates most of the times (but not always), to be able to protect a woman and take care of her. How can both of these views coexist in one person? Am I wrong for believing the two at the same time? Also, he said that I could be a feminist and at the same time be feminine. I do act a little agressive and not too feminine sometimes. He told me that he thinks I am afraid that if I'll act feminine someone will take away my human rights; it's like a defense mechanism. A person saying women are weaker or less intelligent or less capable is nothing more than that person displaying their ignorance, and has nothing to do with equality or the rights of women. Women should receive equal pay for equal work. Women should not be forced into specific categories of work because of their sex -- they should have the same opportunities as men to prove that they can do the job. If a woman does not want to own traditional domestic roles, they should not be forced into it. I went on strike at home once (for a very long time) because I got tired of being the ONLY one who did any housework. I washed my clothes because I needed them for work, but his stayed dirty. The whole house was filthy for about a year! He FINALLY got it and now we share the work. That does not mean that a woman must give up her feminine identity. If a man asks a woman out, it's his invitation so he should pick up the tab unless they have discussed it otherwise. Same thing if a woman asks a man out---she should pick up the tab. Opening doors, pulling out chairs, etc. used to be common courtesy, now it seems to be uncommon. I still hold doors open for people, especially older people, and I wait to pass through behind them. It's a sign of respect. It's a little thing, that doesn't cost anything, that men can do for women. It is not an acknowledgement of the superiority of men, or the inferiority of women. Some people get confused about it. Originally posted by an'ka So, basically, if I want to have a right to do what I want and not do what I don't want, I need to stop expecting from men to be gentlemen? Or if I still want them to take care of me than I need to give up some of my rights of freedom of choice? Did I get it right? I don't expect gentlemanly behavior from anyone, but I do hope for it and often find it. It depends on what you mean by "take care of me" but I will not give up my rights or freedom of choice for anyone. Even if I were married to a man who supported me financially I would not give up anything. I wouldn't be married to a man who expected me to give up anything. I don't think that is necessary at all. Women give back too, in many ways. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Originally posted by an'ka 1) I always say things like: "Women should have the same rights as men", "It's a woman's choice either to cook, clean, do laundry for her family, if she doens't want to she shouldn't have to do it", etc. I always get very defensive about anyone's remarks about women being weaker, or less intelligent, or less capable than men. I alway try to defend women agains men. I consider myself a feminist. 2) At the same time I expect men to be gentelmen: to open doors for women, to pay for their dates most of the times (but not always), to be able to protect a woman and take care of her. the two statements above are contradictions. Link to post Share on other sites
Squid Jigger Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Something that's missing here is that militant feminist were and are bull dyke lesbians who can't f***ing stand men . Period. Their agenda has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with the annihilation of the male sex. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 Err, the idea that feminist seperatists are lesbians is actually a mischaracterization of that "agenda"--but I suspect you don't care. Jesus LS has been sucking lately. Link to post Share on other sites
magda Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 There is definately a difference between a feminist and a militant feminazi. Example: many men are feminists. There is nothing wrong with being feminine. It doesn't mean we are weak. Physically that's true, in relation to men, atleast. But weakness and emotional frailty are just stereotypes of femininity. A strong and secure woman does not have to be masculine. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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