Let's get controversial: Cannabis

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Everyone thinks they know about it. Everyone has an opinion. Let's dig through the misinformation.

 

It has been used as a medicine all over the world for thousands of years until the 1930's (can you believe it's only been less than 100 years?). It is now on the rise again as a medicine used treat almost anything.

 

Cannabidiol, or CBD, has the widest medical scope of about 85 known cannabiniods. THC, on the other hand, has limited uses and can cause unpleasant side effects unless taken together with CBD.

Cannabidiol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The problem with many scientific studies are that they used a THC extract by itself in their trials. Without the CBD, many trials claimed "Marijuana" was ineffective as a treatment.

 

Here's a few examples of what cannabis can do:

 

Relief for glaucoma patients

Cannabinoids and glaucoma

Multiple sclerosis patients report lowered pain and muscle spasms.

Chemicals in marijuana 'protect nervous system' against MS - Medical News Today

Severe epileptic children have had relief from daily seizures by taking extracts high in CBD and low enough in THC as to not cause a "high".

Marijuana stops child's severe seizures - CNN.com

PTSD sufferers have had relief from nightmares and anxiety.

Marijuana-like compound could lead to first-ever medication for PTSD | Fox News

Researches have successfully destroyed cancer cells in mice using cannabis.

Cannabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®) - National Cancer Institute

 

There's a misconception that Cannabis use causes mental illness. More likely, mentally ill persons are drawn to cannabis because it provides relief from their symptoms.

 

CBD has anti-psychotic properties that have helped me with my BPD and shows promise for other serious disorders of the mind. My family doesn't have to worry about BPD symptoms causing dysfunction anymore. Honestly changed my life.

 

My wife has MS and it relieves her muscle tremors and pain. She used to cry every night trying to get to sleep in extreme pain. With cannabis she's able to fall asleep comfortably.

 

As we are now reaping the effects of prohibition, aka The War on Drugs, crime is prevalent. Over night, with the enactment of a law, large numbers of our population were deemed criminals because societies' ills were blamed on "unacceptable" substances. Which, at the time, came from natural plants. In our economy, if there is a demand there will be a supply. The black market for drugs is out of control and there are no safety regulations on products. Street drugs have shifted from natural plants and extracts to chemical concoctions that are proving to be more dangerous. Prohibition causes more damage than any drug could. That's issue for another much deserved discussion.

 

Many people are fighting tooth and nail to keep Cannabis illegal. Some see its use as a sickness in itself. Some equate its use with sin. Some people still think alcohol is not a drug and is safer for them.

 

Isn't it time we started paying attention to real information instead of being taught about drugs by anti-drug organizations and police-led programs out to scare children straight? Those organizations have one motive... to keep everyone from using drugs. Do you think their information might be a bit biased?

 

Do you, or somebody you know, use cannabis to treat any condition?

 

How do you feel when people say "medical marijuana" is a crock and that patients are all just trying to get high?

 

 

If you want your mind blown, google "The Living Torah Cannabis"

You want to talk about some legendary healing... hehe

[Woggle]

I have used it for fun and it is utterly ridiculous that weed is illegal but alcohol is not. I would rather hang out with a pothead than a drunk. The people who want to keep it illegal have their own agenda that has nothing to do with public health. Most of the war on drugs is like that.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Oh, I posted in this section because it was a major stepping stone for my own self-improvement and personal well being. I was able to quiet some of the storm in my head and start to look at things more rationally, with more introspection.

 

I was the kind of person who would try it occasionally but then have a panic attack. I used to have panic disorder along with my usual anxiety.

 

I was jealous of all my friends who were able to enjoy it and bond over it. I started to resent it and people who used it.

 

When I started this treatment, I wasn't messing around. I took this very seriously and was open with my family and every doctor I saw, including psychiatrists.

 

I started smoking it all day. I let myself get accustomed to the feeling and kept increasing the dosage until I got where I wanted. I built somewhat of a tolerance and the "high" feeling lessened over time. Some strains give different "highs" and strengths so there's always a chance I could get "stoned" off of something I haven't tried.

 

Until then I hadn't responded well to typical medication and talk therapy. But after awhile, things just started making sense for the first time in my entire life. I calmed way down and began to accept things. Soon I was able to let go of all the blame I had wrongly placed on other people.

 

Seriously, it was like shackles coming off.

[melell]

There are a host of peer reviewed journal articles on the effects of use. Ranging from good evidence showing very very negative correlations between mental health and long term use; to good evidence for it being helpful for certain conditions.

 

If you don't include those with predisposition to mental illness/addiction, then I would say it is like any other medication- to be used under supervision, with caution, and on a case by case situation. It certainly shouldn't be thrown at everyone as a 'cure all'.

 

If discussion about it was balanced then I think it would be thought about differently. It seems that there is one side die hard 'it is great everyone should do it' and the other 'it is a drug that is abused and has negative effects'.

 

Statements like this There's a misconception that Cannabis use causes mental illness. More likely, mentally ill persons are drawn to cannabis because it provides relief from their symptoms are incredibly misinformed.

 

Don't get me wrong, from everything I have seen it is a wonderful thing for certain people, and terrible for others.

Edited November 14, 2013 by melell

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

There are a host of peer reviewed journal articles on the effects of use. Ranging from good evidence showing very very negative correlations between mental health and long term use; to good evidence for it being helpful for certain conditions.

 

If you don't include those with predisposition to mental illness/addiction, then I would say it is like any other medication- to be used under supervision, with caution, and on a case by case situation. It certainly shouldn't be thrown at everyone as a 'cure all'.

 

If discussion about it was balanced then I think it would be thought about differently. It seems that there is one side die hard 'it is great everyone should do it' and the other 'it is a drug that is abused and has negative effects'.

 

Statements like this There's a misconception that Cannabis use causes mental illness. More likely, mentally ill persons are drawn to cannabis because it provides relief from their symptoms are incredibly misinformed.

 

Don't get me wrong, from everything I have seen it is a wonderful thing for certain people, and terrible for others.

 

The problem with correlations are that they show absolutely no causation.

You can look at it one way and say, "Long term use has caused dementia in marijuana useers". Or you can look at the same study and say "That person with dementia uses marijuana for his symptoms".

 

Cannabis is being tested and used as a treatment for dementia by the way.

CBD has been shown to help schizophrenics, anxiety sufferers, PTSD sufferers, and in my case however it affected the three disorders I have.

 

That is exactly the type of misinformation I'm talking about. Thank you Melell for bringing more of it out so it can be debunked.

 

I actually once had a doctor who told me marijuana use CAUSED dementia. We argued and he wouldn't listen. I knew more about that study than he did.

[Taramere]

I used to smoke it years ago. I enjoyed it. Lots of laughs and lots of intense conversations that I can remember nothing about now. If it can help people medically, so much the better. I would steer clear now primarily because of the smoking aspect of it but also because it tends to reduce motivation. You can put it in food, of course, but that doesn't have quite the social ritual aspect to it that sharing a joint has.

 

There are a whole lot of things that will kill you/go for your health. Cannabis has a good bit more going for it than many of them.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

I used to smoke it years ago. I enjoyed it. Lots of laughs and lots of intense conversations that I can remember nothing about now. If it can help people medically, so much the better. I would steer clear now primarily because of the smoking aspect of it but also because it tends to reduce motivation. You can put it in food, of course, but that doesn't have quite the social ritual aspect to it that sharing a joint has.

 

There are a whole lot of things that will kill you/go for your health. Cannabis has a good bit more going for it than many of them.

 

Good points.

 

About motivation... there are many different strains of cannabis. Some of which can make you drowsy and others that can make you very energetic. It depends on where in the world it originated from and on how it's been crossed with other strains to create new characteristics.

 

I think it's that range of effects that allows it to be an effective treatment for such a wide variety of conditions.

 

Most people don't take that into consideration and think it's all just pot.

[Taramere]

Good points.

 

About motivation... there are many different strains of cannabis. Some of which can make you drowsy and others that can make you very energetic.

 

Yeah, we use to often get really creative when we smoked it. My main "smoking buddies" were my older brother and his friends, a couple of guys I was independently friendly with - and also some boyfriends. It wasn't really something I ever did with other women, except one female friend from college. She and I would have intense conversations. Same thing with the boyfriends.

 

When it came to my brother and his friends, and my platonic friends, the focus would be more on entertaining eachother with stupid stories, games, drawings, poetry and just various surreal stuff - which is maybe the more "hyper" kind of stoned you're talking about.

 

Actually, this discussion has just given me a revelation. Message board posting is often a bit like getting stoned - and funnily enough, I started doing it just about the time I stopped smoking dope.

[crederer]

I'm glad I live in a country where political propaganda doesn't have nearly as many people by the balls as in some other countries.

 

Pot is not bad at all. I don't smoke it any more but quite frankly, the way some people talk about it is just ridiculous and ignorant.

[melell]

it is so dependent on the issue at hand. It functions at a biochemical level successfully or unsuccessfully dependent on the the condition.

 

For instance with serotonin/cortisol issues it has been suggested that

 

"The lack of major effects of marijuana-like drugs on these and other clinical measurement of stress corroborates the clinical observation that drugs of this type seem to be less stressful than the usual psychotomimetics. The pronounced euphoriant and sedative effect of marijunana may ameliorate the stress of the psychotomimetic experience."

?1-Tetrahydrocannabinol, synhexyl and marijuana extract administered orally in man: Catecholamine excretion, plasma cortisol levels and platelet serotonin content - Springer

 

But again, it is not a cure all. I work in a rehab, there is currently one patient who noticed improvements with parkinsons from heavy regular use, but the negatives from him outweighed the positives. Hence the rehab.

 

I am not an expert at all- I am currently working on a social science phd, but have done several courses on scientific method, so I do understand your points about assumptions made in studies. They are often flawed as hell.

 

To debate this from an informed level you do need to be completely up to par with the biochemical aspects. Even scientists that study this extensively, and spend their lives researching, debate the issue. You are not debunking anything. We could go back and forth forever quoting articles for and against. All it would ever be is opinions.

 

Look up logic and fallacies then readdress your argument.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

it is so dependent on the issue at hand. It functions at a biochemical level successfully or unsuccessfully dependent on the the condition.

 

For instance with serotonin/cortisol issues it has been suggested that

 

"The lack of major effects of marijuana-like drugs on these and other clinical measurement of stress corroborates the clinical observation that drugs of this type seem to be less stressful than the usual psychotomimetics. The pronounced euphoriant and sedative effect of marijunana may ameliorate the stress of the psychotomimetic experience."

?1-Tetrahydrocannabinol, synhexyl and marijuana extract administered orally in man: Catecholamine excretion, plasma cortisol levels and platelet serotonin content - Springer

 

But again, it is not a cure all. I work in a rehab, there is currently one patient who noticed improvements with parkinsons from heavy regular use, but the negatives from him outweighed the positives. Hence the rehab.

 

I am not an expert at all- I am currently working on a social science phd, but have done several courses on scientific method, so I do understand your points about assumptions made in studies. They are often flawed as hell.

 

To debate this from an informed level you do need to be completely up to par with the biochemical aspects. Even scientists that study this extensively, and spend their lives researching, debate the issue. You are not debunking anything. We could go back and forth forever quoting articles for and against. All it would ever be is opinions.

 

Look up logic and fallacies then readdress your argument.

 

 

Sorry, but people have been using it as an effective medicine for everything under the sun for thousands of years without the help of "Scientists".

 

I don't need to be on par with a scientist to know a thing or two.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Cannabis does have a risk of dependency. This dependency is nowhere near the level of pharmaceuticals and heroine, but it can make a person temporarily moody right after quitting.

 

Cannabis is also thought to be an ideal replacement drug for those who are addicted to things that can kill them. Then they get all the mind/body/soul benefits of cannabis. Win/Win.

 

The problem is when people view cannabis use as something that needs to be rehabilitated. As if there's something wrong with using it. Like people can't be successful or live an honest life unless they are clean.

 

But, it's cannabis people. Let's get real.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

And let's not start telling people they need to be of a certain intelligence to be informed enough to debate this issue. It's silly.

 

Scientists don't have all the answers.

 

And let's not go attacking the way someone argues their point either. My ADD makes it difficult to always say things properly and things often get left out. It's always been a problem for me so before you try to get all debate team on us, have a little tact.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

The medical marijuana community is ahead of the science right now.

Anecdotal evidence has more weight at the time being.

 

Testing has been restricted and red-taped because of it's federal illegality. I haven't heard of many scientists testing individual strains and hybrid strains to see how things are really being affected (maybe someone can correct me). I've heard of studies using only THC, only CBD, a combination of THC/CBD, or using whatever cannabis is on hand without regard to the strain's specific properties. There are about 83 other cannabinoids that seem to be largely ignored in testing.

 

One strain might be good for pain but terrible for the mind of a schizophrenic.

[Kate9292]

I love MJ. I love how relaxed I feel afterwards. Even my non-smoking bf notices this and comments on this. Of course I use medical one

 

Fact that you can still anywhere be busted by smoking it when cigarettes and alcohol are legal is ridiculous. Alcoholism is FAR FAR worse than weed addiction and I don't even feel addicted.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Kate9292

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

There are a host of peer reviewed journal articles on the effects of use. Ranging from good evidence showing very very negative correlations between mental health and long term use; to good evidence for it being helpful for certain conditions.

 

If you don't include those with predisposition to mental illness/addiction, then I would say it is like any other medication- to be used under supervision, with caution, and on a case by case situation. It certainly shouldn't be thrown at everyone as a 'cure all'.

 

If discussion about it was balanced then I think it would be thought about differently. It seems that there is one side die hard 'it is great everyone should do it' and the other 'it is a drug that is abused and has negative effects'.

 

Statements like this There's a misconception that Cannabis use causes mental illness. More likely, mentally ill persons are drawn to cannabis because it provides relief from their symptoms are incredibly misinformed.

 

Don't get me wrong, from everything I have seen it is a wonderful thing for certain people, and terrible for others.

 

I should have added in my first response to these statements...

 

Those peer reviewed journal articles are the cause of the misconception I was talking about. The way they are misinterpreted and used by people to say cannabis use causes this or causes that.

 

I made the bolded statement being mindful of those studies. I think you assumed I was basing it on some other reason, thereby giving me the "incredibly misinformed" bit. But no, you bringing up the exact studies I feel are the cause of the misconception helps me to make my point.

 

So again, I have to thank you.

Edited November 14, 2013 by AShogunNamedMarcus

[melell]

Thank goodness there are people as smart as you willing to preach about it. Not.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Thank goodness there are people as smart as you willing to preach about it. Not.

 

I'm also using this thread as a practice in coming out of my shell handling my AvPD. Dealing with rude people on the internet and people who use combative argument tactics to bully others is a big fear of mine. Especially when dealing with controversial subjects.

 

You are actually helping me conquer my fears.

 

So again, thank you.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

the storm in my head

 

 

When you can smoke that stuff without a clearly perceptible-to-others "Storm in your head" (ongoing 24/7 with those who smoke it regularly) then, and only then, will conventional wisdom sign-off on your stance.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

When you can smoke that stuff without a clearly perceptible-to-others "Storm in your head" (ongoing 24/7 with those who smoke it regularly) then, and only then, will conventional wisdom sign-off on your stance.

 

 

Forgive me, I don't understand exactly what you are saying.

 

I used to not smoke and had a storm in my head 24/7 causing all sorts of dysfunction and chaos.

 

When I started smoking 24/7, that storm started to clear. While the BPD symptoms have drastically been reduced, the AvPD is still a major issue for me that I am about to start an effective treatment for.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood.

[carhill]

I've been neutral on MJ since first encountering growing facilities in friend's garages in the 1970's. I don't want it on my property due to its illegality but plenty of my neighbors grow it amongst their legal crops for a cash income. If it was decriminalized tomorrow, I'd have no significant opinion on it and might even seek to add it as an income source since I have the right growing soils and conditions for it.

 

My only reservations would be along the lines currently relevant to alcohol, mainly compromising public safety when operating motor vehicles and/or dangerous equipment when under the influence. That's been a concern of mine for decades because of the industry I work in. If someone is drunk or stoned, or under the influence of certain RX'd medications, it's easy to be killed. If MJ could be decriminalized and such methodologies of detection perfected to meet the current standards of 'influence' relevant to other drugs, I'd have a lot more confidence in it being accepted widely.

 

Of my social circle and generation, of non-RX'd mind altering 'drugs', I'd say alcohol is the most common, followed by MJ and cocaine. Personally, I've seen far more negative outcomes from alcohol abuse, but that's likely because it's far more readily available, in addition to being legal. Would MJ, if legal, become similar? Unknown. It certainly could become a huge business opportunity for those companies most familiar with smoking, the tobacco companies. Perhaps their political clout could be directed at the product, similar to that of the alcohol industry. Money talks.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

I've been neutral on MJ since first encountering growing facilities in friend's garages in the 1970's. I don't want it on my property due to its illegality but plenty of my neighbors grow it amongst their legal crops for a cash income. If it was decriminalized tomorrow, I'd have no significant opinion on it and might even seek to add it as an income source since I have the right growing soils and conditions for it.

 

My only reservations would be along the lines currently relevant to alcohol, mainly compromising public safety when operating motor vehicles and/or dangerous equipment when under the influence. That's been a concern of mine for decades because of the industry I work in. If someone is drunk or stoned, or under the influence of certain RX'd medications, it's easy to be killed. If MJ could be decriminalized and such methodologies of detection perfected to meet the current standards of 'influence' relevant to other drugs, I'd have a lot more confidence in it being accepted widely.

 

Of my social circle and generation, of non-RX'd mind altering 'drugs', I'd say alcohol is the most common, followed by MJ and cocaine. Personally, I've seen far more negative outcomes from alcohol abuse, but that's likely because it's far more readily available, in addition to being legal. Would MJ, if legal, become similar? Unknown. It certainly could become a huge business opportunity for those companies most familiar with smoking, the tobacco companies. Perhaps their political clout could be directed at the product, similar to that of the alcohol industry. Money talks.

 

Thank you for this post. Excellent observations. Very thoughtful.

 

The only thing I can see getting in the way of testing drivers for being under the influence of cannabis is that people with chronic problems usually smoke all throughout the day. They have to live their entire lives under the influence to have any functionality in their jobs or raising their children. Other options are opiates that can reduce someone's quality of life and positive interaction with the world.

 

Much like any other medication with those kinds of side effects.

Many medications advise not to drive a car or operate heavy machinery until you know exactly how that medicine will affect you. What role would medication tolerance play?

 

How would a law requiring no one be under the influence of cannabis work? Are there exceptions?

[carhill]

How would a law requiring no one be under the influence of cannabis work?

Presuming it's applied similar to current laws regarding mind-altering substances, TBH I'd have to do more research. The psychoactive substance appears to have a longer half-life than alcohol, due to how it is stored in the body, but I'd have to understand more clearly what that means, practically speaking, to offer informed opinion on how laws regarding DUI/OUI would be implemented. For example, if cannabis continues to be detectable after symptoms of impairment end, apparently a common argument, what's a practical test for it?

 

Are there exceptions?

 

That would be interesting to explore, and some of that exploration could be relevant to your inquiries regarding medication/drug tolerance. Currently, if one is to examine alcohol, there appears to be little wiggle room; if one's BAC is out of compliance with measured standards for certain functions, it is, whether that be driving a car, running a crane or flying an aircraft, as examples.

 

Perhaps, as scientists continue to find more positive effects and uses for cannabis, they can also find more effective and socially acceptable ways for it to exist as an everyday part of our life.

 

Thinking about this reminds me of another mind-altering 'drug' I've often seen the effects of when interacting with friend's grandchildren: sugar! Perhaps that's a reminder that our bodies are big chemical factories and we're constantly subjected to inputs which alter or affect our chemistry and the organs which rely on it, with the brain amongst them. Good 'food' for thought.