D-day on the way?

[bentleychic]

What is the meeting that you both go to most mornings?

I think she said AA (alcoholics anonymous).

[ThatsJustHowIRoll]

I fear you are going to end up thrown under the bus and then have the bus backed over you a time or two. This sounds like a big game to the MM to you. You AND BS sound like you are two pawns in his game and he's thoroughly enjoying playing you against each other to get his kicks. It's disgusting, quite frankly and I think you AND the BS are going to suffer from it in the end. He won't leave his wife. He will throw you under the bus. He MAY come back and try to have an affair underground with you, I believe, but I don't think it will last long before the BS suspects again and blows the roof off.

 

I'm not a psychic (much), just have a strong gut instinct on this one.

 

I agree with this.

 

Seems to me that MM has some perversion where he gets off on using, degrading and humiliating women - both the OP and his wife. Takes a special kind of A-Hole to behave the way he has and still be so nonchalant about it with you. Watching you both side by side fawning over him in hospital. Pitting the two of you against each other. Revelling in humiliation and lying.

 

Like i said - what a catch.

 

OP, you seem to have low self esteem also. You can do better than this.

[whichwayisup]

I think his wife knows much more than she's letting on. She also may have spoken to the nurses, asked them who else visited her husband when she wasn't there.

[experiencethedevine]

I was being sarcastic towards myself when I called her pesky wife. I didn't mean to call her, personally, the pesky wife.

 

I am very aware that she has strong feelings for him. I have heard about it from him and seen it during the past few weeks.

 

The problem is, he no longer has strong feelings for her. At some point, he fell out of love with her. Before I even came along.

 

Before we even started our affair or even considered having one, he told me he was no longer in love with his wife. He told me that he felt his marriage had died of neglect years ago. He told me that he didn't think he actually loved her when he married her.

 

 

 

Later he told me he never experienced this kind of love. He is amazed by it daily. He asks if other people actually feel like this too.

 

And yes I called him daddy on purpose. He is and has been like a father figure to me in a lot of ways. He's been there for me many times. . .

 

 

Oh dear........

 

You are certainly not painting the picture of the same person I saw not so long ago. She had a conscience attack. Obviously it didn't stay ..........

 

What an absolute barrel of tosh.

 

The man is a coward of the worst kind, and if he felt so strongly that his (now not so unsuspecting) wife was no longer satisfactory, (in spite of the fact that she evidently loves and supports him 100%), and that he no longer loves her, hasn't for some time, and probably never really did, then he should have the BALLS to tell her!

 

You believe this man to be in love with you, if that is how the actions of this man appear to you,and the actions he insults his wife's intelligence with, then in deed you are perfectly aligned for a head on collision of gargantuan proportions.

 

What a horrid way for someone to behave, and what a weak person to allow that behaviour to colour their considerations.

 

Some of the posters here have mentioned that you do actually belong together (so that at least his wife can shed herself of the unknown burden she carries), and I would be inclined to agree.............

[peaksandvalleys]

Oh dear........

 

You are certainly not painting the picture of the same person I saw not so long ago. She had a conscience attack. Obviously it didn't stay ..........

 

What an absolute barrel of tosh.

 

The man is a coward of the worst kind, and if he felt so strongly that his (now not so unsuspecting) wife was no longer satisfactory, (in spite of the fact that she evidently loves and supports him 100%), and that he no longer loves her, hasn't for some time, and probably never really did, then he should have the BALLS to tell her!

 

You believe this man to be in love with you, if that is how the actions of this man appear to you,and the actions he insults his wife's intelligence with, then in deed you are perfectly aligned for a head on collision of gargantuan proportions.

 

What a horrid way for someone to behave, and what a weak person to allow that behaviour to colour their considerations.

 

Some of the posters here have mentioned that you do actually belong together (so that at least his wife can shed herself of the unknown burden she carries), and I would be inclined to agree.............

 

 

I couldn't agree more.

[KathyM]

Well, as much as his wife deserves better treatment than what she has been getting, and hopefully she will have a Dday and throw this bum out, I wouldn't encourage the OP to stay with this guy. He's a sociopath who cheats on his wife, has no remorse, but rather a sense of entitlement, and strings along his wife claiming he never loved her, but yet feels entitled to waste her life in a fake marriage, and now flaunts the OP in front of his wife and others while feeling smug and superior that he pulled one over on the wife. I wouldn't want to see anyone end up with this creep. The OP must be seriously screwed up to be in this situation where she has an alcohol addiction, and looks to a guy like this to rescue her from it and from her life. She needs serious counseling to develop better self esteem, and make healthier choices for herself.

[beach]

If you are going to AA - are you doing your steps with a sponsor? Have you told your sponsor your truth about seeing a MM?

 

What step are you on?

[HopingAgain]

I have to agree that I hope Solo and this MM wind up together. The wife sure as hell doesnt deserve to waste her remaining years caring for the POS that is the MM. This is a case of be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it!

[janedoe67]

If you are going to AA - are you doing your steps with a sponsor? Have you told your sponsor your truth about seeing a MM?

 

What step are you on?

 

Obviously not step 9....

[Snipercatt]

Well, not even Step 1. "Building a firm bedrock upon which a happy and purposeful life may be built."

 

Trading one destructive obsession for another is just more of the same drunken attitude, behavior and manipulation. Sometimes referred to as a dry drunk.

 

Solo, you need to get yourself into another group that MM isn't participating in. You need to get you a genuine, female, sponsor and truly begin the TRUE process of sobriety.

 

MM's business is a marital asset. The declared ownership percentages are just for voting and estate purposes. BW is entitled to her marital half and she and any other owners have to be in agreement for MM to cash out. There has to be a willing buyer, etc. BW probably took over the financial end when MM's drinking was sinking the business. He knows that he owes her for his standard of living and he might resent her for it, but he is very beholding to her.

 

There is no chance in heck that he can take his value, in cash, and run. Won't happen, ever.

 

This man has asked you to do some very humiliating, degrading and disgusting things. And.you.did.them! You must get a healthy perspective on this before you can consider yourself practicing sobriety.

 

Solo, you are middle age. You have 18 years before you can collect your full social security retirement benefit, assuming it is available at all in 2031. You only have 17 years to save for your retirement. Age brings with it waning energy and possible health difficulties and extended absences from employment. That should scare the heck out of you!

[krazikat]

Well now you're there to keep 'daddy' from being/ending up alone. Why's he still married?

 

She has referred to him as grandpa before, too.

 

As in, when first intimate, she thought about his age as having sex with grampa....

 

Definitely interesting word choices...

[jlola]

She has referred to him as grandpa before, too.

 

As in, when first intimate, she thought about his age as having sex with grampa....

 

Definitely interesting word choices...

 

Seems a lot of OW are involved with much older men. I think older men fuss over them and validate them in ways men their own age would not. So the trade-off is being made to feel like you are the cat's meow and ignoring the age.

 

My half-sister had an affair with a friend of my father's. A childhood friend. My nephew is his son. The man was more than twice her age. It turned my stomach to think of that but she has very low self esteem. This old man spoiled her and made her feel beautiful . She allowed her need for validation to ruin her son's life, her ex-husband's life(she is a widow) her life and so many other lives. If they love old men so much,why not date single old men? But then I guess there is not much drama in that. When you cannot have something, it looks way better than it actually is. It is the longing for these married old men that is the lure. Easily accessible much older men are rarely attractive to much younger single women.

Edited November 20, 2013 by jlola

[solostand]

Well, not even Step 1. "Building a firm bedrock upon which a happy and purposeful life may be built."

 

This is not step 1. step one is "we admitted we were powerless over alcohol and our lives had become unmanageable.

 

 

MM's business is a marital asset. The declared ownership percentages are just for voting and estate purposes. BW is entitled to her marital half and she and any other owners have to be in agreement for MM to cash out. There has to be a willing buyer, etc. BW probably took over the financial end when MM's drinking was sinking the business. He knows that he owes her for his standard of living and he might resent her for it, but he is very beholding to her.

 

i am not a dolt, i am very aware at this point of every aspect of the business. MMs drinking was never sinking the business. MM started the business and has maintained it very successfully for 40 years, even when he was drinking. I am also aware of how maritial businesses work, and also know that he won't be trying to steal from it. he also has other, unrelated sources of income as well. Even if he splits the business, its still a very lucrative business.

 

There is no chance in heck that he can take his value, in cash, and run. Won't happen, ever.

 

I never expected this to happen although he and i have joked about it. joked being key words.

 

This man has asked you to do some very humiliating, degrading and disgusting things. And.you.did.them! You must get a healthy perspective on this before you can consider yourself practicing sobriety.

 

i have been a full partner in this relatiosnhip so he has never asked me to do humiliating, degrading and disgusting friends. Anything I have done I have done of my own free will. The day i ended up in the hospital with his wife, it was my fault, because i chose to visit when i wasn't sure she would be there or not. when he saw me he probably did not know what to do so invited me in.

 

 

Solo, you are middle age. You have 18 years before you can collect your full social security retirement benefit, assuming it is available at all in 2031. You only have 17 years to save for your retirement. Age brings with it waning energy and possible health difficulties and extended absences from employment. That should scare the heck out of you!

 

you are assuming here i just lay around and live off my MM. This is not the case. I am a professional with skills that are in demand. Yes, MM helped me out financially last year when i was in a tough place, but luckily he does not do that anymore because I make my own money. However, MM does equate love with money so he will often give me a hundred dollars or so to take myself out to dinner or buy shoes or whatever.

[solostand]

She has referred to him as grandpa before, too.

 

As in, when first intimate, she thought about his age as having sex with grampa....

 

Definitely interesting word choices...

 

Yes, I did refer to him as Grandpa. I had no idea how old he was until he told me, shortly before our first sexual encounter. He looks a lot younger. So that's why I was thinking grandpa.

[Snipercatt]

Step 1, taken from Alcoholic's Anonymous site:

 

http://www.aa.org/twelveandtwelve/en_pdfs/en_step1.pdf

 

You, yourself, have referred to MM as being disgusting and something analogous to vile.

 

A MM that urges their AP to have sex with them and then to sit across from their wife at an event with their cum inside her isn't disgusting? A married person joking about killing their spouse to be with their AP ( ala Scott Peterson ) isn't beyond vile?

 

You are so focused on defending your MM that you don't realize the depravity of it and how humilitating you should find this.

 

I don't assume that you lay around living off MM. I do think one of the reasons that you are so vulnerable to him is because you have been financially strapped and his gifts permitted you to buy lunches, rather than eat cookies, and gas, and so on. A predator senses vulnerability like a sharp senses chum in the water.

 

I'll leave it at that because I'd rather you focus on what you need to do to live authentically. It is noteworthy that you don't respond to posts that encourage you to do things that contribute to your sobriety rather than deepen your vulnerabilities.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Snipercatt

[solostand]

Its hard to respond positively when you feel you're being attacked.

[beach]

AA suggests living by a set of principles.

 

The principle attached to step 1 is honesty/truth.

 

It appears you aren't DOING the program - and neither is he. The principles of the program would never suggest causing more harm to self and/or others - in fact, quite the contrary!!!

 

Using a meeting as an excuse to "see him" every morning is despicable! There are people in those meetings that need help and guidance to get well - and spiritually fit.

 

You using that arena to conduct your affair is a terrible way to help others.

 

 

It's an old ploy, though, and seen OFTEN in AA meetings - people being in the room for the wrong agenda.

 

I'm sure the enlightened ones in the room see right through your pretending - MM too.

[Snipercatt]

Its hard to respond positively when you feel you're being attacked.

 

I agree, and I can see why you would feel that way. I've read your posts and my heart truly does go out to you.

 

I don't think you see your situation for what it is. It may be better than situations you've been in, in the past, but you are being exploited for another's perversion. It is causing you to not work your sobriety plan in a responsible, and accountable, manner. That's your choice, but to sugar coat it means you can't make an authentic assessment.

[HopingAgain]

AA suggests living by a set of principles.

 

The principle attached to step 1 is honesty/truth.

 

It appears you aren't DOING the program - and neither is he. The principles of the program would never suggest causing more harm to self and/or others - in fact, quite the contrary!!!

 

Using a meeting as an excuse to "see him" every morning is despicable! There are people in those meetings that need help and guidance to get well - and spiritually fit.

 

You using that arena to conduct your affair is a terrible way to help others.

 

 

It's an old ploy, though, and seen OFTEN in AA meetings - people being in the room for the wrong agenda.

 

I'm sure the enlightened ones in the room see right through your pretending - MM too.

 

I agree with this, and I'm going to expound on it. Last night, I was in a "Boundaries" class meeting, and one of the things we discussed is that some people with addictions that work these programs truly don't WANT to change. So instead of changing, they just trade one addiction for another. They lie to everyone else and themselves too, about wanting to change. But in their hearts, they know the truth. They are fine with the Status Quo being just as it is, they just want everyone else to get off of their backs about it so they play a role pretending to desire sobriety.

 

I think this describes you and MM to a tee. You 2 are playing out your issues with one another, you've already admitted it, but do you REALLY want to change this? Or do you just want to appear to care about changing it? Get honest with yourself and then maybe things will turn around for you.

[janedoe67]

My biomom is a long time AA'er, and she calls these people who hook up in AA "step 13'ers." It is hugely frowned upon by the real recovery proponents precisely BECAUSE of the dysfunction.

[solostand]

We are not using A.A. to engage in our affair. Sometimes he goes to the meeting, sometimes he doesn't. Same for me. I also go to other meetings. I have been in and out of A.A. for 25 years, have been sober for 20 of them, so don't need any lectures about how A.A. works or does not work.

 

Its called "13th stepping" and its when an older, experienced member of A.A. preys on a newcomer. That is not the case in our situation as he was not an older experienced member and I was not a newcomer.

 

We could have met anywhere, it just happened to be at A.A.

 

Our relationship is separate from A.A. It is not the only place we see each other.

[threelaurels]

We are not using A.A. to engage in our affair. Sometimes he goes to the meeting, sometimes he doesn't. Same for me. I also go to other meetings. I have been in and out of A.A. for 25 years, have been sober for 20 of them, so don't need any lectures about how A.A. works or does not work.

 

Its called "13th stepping" and its when an older, experienced member of A.A. preys on a newcomer. That is not the case in our situation as he was not an older experienced member and I was not a newcomer.

 

We could have met anywhere, it just happened to be at A.A.

 

Our relationship is separate from A.A. It is not the only place we see each other.

 

I have been in NA, and we strongly discourage members from forming romantic relationships with one another--regardless of what stage they are at in the program. Two dysfunctional people cannot have a healthy relationship. If one goes off the wagon, they may drag the other down with them. My uncle and his xW did not meet in AA, but they were both addicts. They divorced because she started drinking again after 10 years sober. Her behavior threatened his sobriety, so he had to cut her from his life.

 

Is MM your sponsor?

[solostand]

No, he is not my sponsor. Nor am I his. Female/Male sponsors are frowned upon.

 

And relationships are not frowned upon if people have good healthy sobriety. Many marriages (happy) have come from A.A. rooms. I of course am not speaking of my situation, where he is already married.

 

And though our relationship is not hidden in A.A., we are still accepted and welcomed within the group.

[beach]

No, he is not my sponsor. Nor am I his. Female/Male sponsors are frowned upon.

 

And relationships are not frowned upon if people have good healthy sobriety. Many marriages (happy) have come from A.A. rooms. I of course am not speaking of my situation, where he is already married.

 

And though our relationship is not hidden in A.A., we are still accepted and welcomed within the group.

 

Of course you are welcome in the group - everyone is welcomed to be there.

 

Can you show me what page says male/female is "frowned upon" in the big book?

 

Can you explain how you explain your position of being his OW as honest/truthful? Do you think your behavior falls within the guidelines of the principles of the program?

 

Can you explain how taking a huge interest in another man who is married coincides with your program? How do you justify the way you participate?

 

Have you talked honestly to your sponsor about how you are participating in the triangle?

 

Has he been involved with the program a while/done all his step work?

 

Do you consistently sponsor others?

Edited November 20, 2013 by beach

[spiderowl]

I talked to a guy recently who had had an affair and his wife found out. They were 'trying to make it work' and he was on 'restricted measures'. His wife was keeping a careful eye on him.

 

He was telling me all this with what I felt was a certain amount of pride. He declared he'd been a 'naughty boy'. It was clear his wife was not happy and practically guarding him. I didn't detect that it bothered him actually, in fact he was like a naughty child telling me he'd been grounded for bad behaviour, when in actual fact he was proud he'd shown he was a man, a go-getter, and that someone cared enough to ground him.

 

I felt for his wife. She's the unwitting party to his immature game. I can't see that marriage lasting long, if she realises he is proud of his waywardness. I guess it's a bit like an animal marking its territory - if it marks it further afield than most, it has a bigger territory and shows every other creature in sight that it has too. Not only is he telling other males to stay clear, he is sending a message to significant females that he is a force to be reckoned with and that they are not guaranteed status in his harem.

 

For some reason, I wasn't impressed.