Confused about my feelings

[mark.david]

Hi, everyone and happy holidays. I'm glad to have found this forum.

 

Here's my story. My wife and I are very close -- joined-at-the-hip as they say. We've been married for eight years and spend almost every minute of every day together.

 

Lately, my wife has been going through a sort of early mid-life crisis (she's in her late 30s). She's abscessed with getting older and losing her looks. She's always measured herself on how men react to her, and she's worried about what will happen when they no longer get as excited as they once did.

 

Of course, I tell her all the time how sexy and beautiful she is, but sadly it doesn't mean much coming from me. She always says, "you're my husband. You have to say that."

 

In any case, it's gotten really bad lately, and she's started "acting out" to deal with it. She developed a couple of really deep crushes on guys that we know. The first time it ended with a tearful confession to me. The second time she actually propositioned the guy. He rejected her, and she was absolutely devastated her. I was in the odd position of comforting my wife because she was rejected by another man. I would say things to her like, "he probably finds you really attractive. I bet he's just morally opposed to messing with a married woman." But I was thinking, "this is nuts!"

 

To complicate things, we suspect she's bi-polar. When she's in an upswing, she feels entitled. She feels like "the rules" don't apply to her. When she's in a downswing, she feels depressed and suicidal. After that guy rejected her, I convinced her to go into therapy. She's now seeing a psychotherapist and an MD. So she's getting Rx and a talking cure, which is good. The therapy has just started, so we'll see how she does.

 

Meanwhile, she went to a party last week, and when she came home she confessed that she'd made out with a guy at the party. She said he followed her around all night, pulled her onto the dance floor, and then they wound up kissing. Later, she admitted that it had gone beyond that. They had ducked into a closet somewhere and he had pulled down her dress top and sucked on her nipples and then put a finger inside her. Sorry if that's too graphic for this forum, but I wanted to get across the shock I felt when I heard this.

 

Here's where it gets complicated: when she told me this, I was really turned on. More turned on than I have been in a long time. In fact, we immediately had sex, and I asked her to tell me the story again while we were having sex. I came about two sentences into her story.

 

You see, many of my sexual fantasies involve her and other people. I've been imagining that for years, and hearing about it actually happening was thrilling.

 

But I'm also going through all of the more "normal" feelings. I'm angry. I'm hurt. I'm jealous. I feel betrayed. But really turned on at the same time, which is so weird. I was particularly upset about the kissing, because I love making out, but my wife doesn't really enjoy it with me. But she made out with this guy for 20 minutes. I told her I was upset about that, and she explained that it was a turnon because he was a stranger that wanted her so much -- it wasn't that she fantasize about kissing men other than me. It was just being wanted. I asked her to do to me what she did to him, and this lead to a long makeout session which included lots of tongue. I was sitting there thinking, "this is so horrible and hurtful, my wife never french kisses me, but she french kissed that guy!" while she was french kissing me and while I was getting really turned on by it.

 

We've discussed this a lot lately, and I've sort of given my wife permission to have flings. I am so conflicted about this. I told her that I will tolerate infidelity but not lies. She HAS to be honest with me. She agreed to this. And I honestly do feel like lying is worse than screwing around. Maybe it would be okay if I never found out about stuff, but she's a terrible liar, so I WOULD find out about it eventually. I'd rather know right away than feel like a fool later. I also feel -- and I know many people here would disagree -- that I really don't have the right to forbid her to screw around. I don't own her. And, as I've said, I get turned on by the idea -- but I also get jealous, etc.

 

So I don't know if my permissiveness is a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know if it's good or bad for me. And I don't know if it's good or bad for my wife. I'm suspecting that there isn't a simple answer. I do know that I love her deeply and I have never for a moment felt that she doesn't love me. I don't equate sex and fidelity with love (I'm pretty liberal), but I was still brought up in this culture and can't escape certain puritanical feelings.

 

I'm not sure anyone can really give advice about any of this stuff, and I will probably start getting therapy myself soon (it's a bit of a strain on our budget). But I needed to unload. I really don't have anyone to talk to about this stuff. Thanks for listening!

 

Mark

[LucreziaBorgia]

Have you two established that you have an open marriage, or are you still treating it like a regular vanilla marriage with a 'guilty secret'? Either way, I would strongly suggest that you two look for a couples counselor (in addition to her regular therapist) who will help you both cope with the decisions that you want to make with your marriage.

 

Open marriages can be very difficult, and the key to a successful one is completely open and honest communication between you and your wife. You will have to endure societal/moral pressure, and will face people on a daily basis who will try to guilt and shame you into the "accepted" definition of marriage. I expect some of that guilt and shame will come from within - as we are conditioned in this society to accept only the "correct" type of marriage.

 

You will have to decide though, if it is really an open marriage that you want to have - or if you are interested in taking what you have and rebuilding it into a traditional marriage. The best way to figure this out is to talk it over with a couples counselor who can help you make that decision without imposing personal morals/beliefs on you about marriage.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I hope that you and your wife can come to a solution that will be happy and healthy for you both.

[Bryanp]

Hello,

 

I hope you realize what you are doing by allowing this.

First, the chances are pretty good that she will be putting herself and you at risk for STD's if she allows herself to be seduced by strangers.

Second, she puts herself at great risk being hurt or killed by being with strangers.

Third, she will get a reputation for a wife that is out on the make and it will be an embarrassment to you and your family and in laws in the long run. Do you really want to be known as a guy who is married to a slut?

Fourth, the chances are much greater she will meet someone else and fall in love with them.

Fifth, in the long run how will you feel knowing that other men and possibly male friends are screwing your wife and viewing you as a pathetic fool.

Finally, it is not a 100 percent but it is a pretty good chance that in the long run this will destroy your marriage. Most open marriages fail. I think you need therapy yourself to understand the dangers you are putting your wife, yourself and your marriage into.

I only hope you do not have or will have children. Your short term term turn on

will lead to your long term failure of your marriage and possible STD's and the destruction of both your reputations in your family and your community. Apparently both of you have broken moral compasses. Open your eyes and see what you are doing before you will lose everything. I wish you luck because you will need it by allowing allowing your wife to become the neigborhood whore and your the neigborhood fool. Is this what you really want and desire?

[mark.david]

LucreziaBorgia, I wouldn't say we have an open relationship. Maybe we're moving in that direction -- for her anyway. Maybe not. I agree, we should definitely get couples counseling.

 

Bryanp, thank you for your advice. I'm sure you meant well, but you came off (to me) as judgemental, which is not what I need right now. I don't need to be told that my moral compass is broken or that my wife is a whore. I understand your point that people will look at us that way. But I really couldn't care less about that. What we do is OUR business. I was hoping, though, that I'd find some understanding here -- not a sermon.

 

We don't have kids and don't plan to ever have any. If we did have kids, I would not do anything to hurt them. We also don't have inlaws. My wife's parents are dead and I'm not close to my family.

 

You may have a old-world view that a husband owns his wife, but I don't. My marriage isn't based on ownership. If I forbid my wife to be with another man, she will take it to heart, I'm sure. I know she doesn't want to hurt me. I also know she's going through a really tough time right now and may do it anyway -- no matter how much she intends to "obey" me. She's not a very strong person right now. If I make it clear to her that it's against the rules, then she may do it anyway and just lie to me. THAT, I can't deal with.

 

As for getting turned on by it, I doubt I'm the only guy in the world with such fantasies. Most guys wouldn't admit it. I understand that. But I believe in honesty.

 

In any case, I'm sure you were just trying to be helpful. So thanks.

[Bryanp]

Hello again,

 

I am sorry that my message came across as judgmental to you. I just wanted you to realize the ramifications of this situation. Again I fear that a woman who seeks out strangers for possible sexual encounters puts herself into great risk for physical harm and/or STD's. I did not say you wife would be a whore. I said that is how she would be perceived my others. I would be very frightened if my wife told me that she went into a closet with some stranger at a party and made out, let him play with her breasts and finger her. Maybe next time it would become very dangerous.

I don't think not allowing your wife to have sex with other men and putting your health at great risk is construed as an example of ownership of another person and old world thinking. I work in an area that deals with violence against women and STD's all of the time. You would have to be blind not to recognize the dangers involved.

There is nothing wrong with fantasies. My wife and I engage in all types of fantasies including the ones you mentioned. The point is that it is just that: fantasies. In the real world, I would never accept my wife screwing strange men, putting her physical health at risk, putting my heath at risk for STD. I understand the concept different strokes for different folks. My original message was intended for you to realize the problems involved with an open marriage since if you do reading on the subject it shows most will fail. Maybe yours will be the expection. Maybe your concept of marriage, committment and marriage vows are deemed differently for you and your wife. I suggested some some sort of counseling for you to understand the long range ramifications of this situation for you and your wife by enabling her to do this. Your response that she will lie and do it anyway begs the question: is this what you want in a marriage. If yes, then I really do wish you luck.

[Jayman]

Mark David , I have to agree with Bryanp on the basic's of what was said . I can tell you many years ago I had a three way with an x girlfriend and a friend who was her boyfriend at that time . They got to gethere after she was cheeting on me with him 14 years ago . His friendship with me go's back 24 years and her friendship go's back that long . So we did the nasty a few years ago . Ever since then he has trust issues with her . She is blind and can't go far from home . But he think's that she is screwing me to this day . I think the only reason there still together is they have a child . The point I'm trying to make is it can be very messy for your relationship . If I felt like that I would be thinking about divorce ( That's Just me ) But I would be getting help fast if I were you . Just my two cents . Jayman

[moimeme]

I did not say you wife would be a whore.

 

Yeah you did:

allowing allowing your wife to become the neigborhood whore

 

Mark, it is a fairly common fantasy for men. We had another poster recently who posted about the same thing. That's likely one reason people join swingers' clubs. This situation is a little complicated by the fact that your wife is bipolar and acting out in manic phases. I think it's possible that after a course of therapy, she may decide this was never what she really wanted and that it was part of the mania and that's why I think you both need to think seriously about this.

 

I agree that it would be a good idea to speak to a therapist; ideally one who has dealt with people in swinging or open relationships before. Some do work, but as others have pointed out, it's a minefield and requires very careful navigation.

[Mr Spock]

I find your story fascinating-please, keep updating us. I would agree that you both go into counselling-not because your situation is WRONG but you both need to sort out what you need, how to fill those needs, and how it makes you feel and how to HANDLE those feelings, and there is no one professional enough on here to give you that advice.

 

So keep us posted.

[loyal husband]

Whoa, buddy slow down!

Kinda reminds me of my situation, been married to my wife for 6 years and together for 10yrs. 2 years before marriage I cheated on her with an ex. It was a stupid one-night stand that erupted at a christmas party after consuming huge quantities of alcohol.

 

My guilt was so bad I encouraged her to be with other men out of fairness. I had never confessed my dirty dealings until this summer. She ended up having a romantic fling with an old buddy of mine and later threw me out of the house for 3 weeks to have sex with another man.

 

I was trying to be fair but nonetheless it hurt like hell, even though she never actually had sex! I could not escape the dark nausea of jealousy. 4 more years go by with her assuming I didn't care. (I always played it cool kinda like you supporting her when she was rejected).

 

This summer she calmly explains she wants to track down anonymous sex. I broke down, and almost lost my job cause my depression was so bad. I too would get turned on by the idea of her with other men, but I think it was more of a coping mechanism. My orgasm was a "shot of opium" to kill the pain.

 

It was never an indication that it was something I truely wanted. We are much better now and she likes it that I do actually harbor jealous feelings. She never knew I was suffering from jealous feelings cause I hid them wanting to be fair.

 

But dude she'll go out if you let her. Maybe you can take it but I tried to be open and it tore me apart mentally. I finally confessed my crime all those years ago and explained I never felt justified in telling her how it hurt me to have her messing around with other men.

 

Even though I felt unjustified to have jealous feelings they came anyway. I lost so much sleep, throughout the years. I feared I had turned her into a "hot wife". I explained to her if this was really how she was now(hot wife) then she could no longer expect me to be a good husband anymore.

 

She was pissed I had lied all those years and surprised I was jealous. She no longer wants to go out now. It was only good for her knowing I would be faithful while she was out and about, she did not want me out and about. Funny huh. Watch your step Mark. There be a deep ravine in the fog buddy.

[whichwayisup]

Mark, get her to the doctor, and meds should help with the bipolar. I would not let unfortunately anything that has happened so far ruin your marriage. Bipolar is not something you deal with alone, she needs meds and a therapist to help her with her low self esteem issues.

 

If things were wonderful before all this happened, trust me- it will go back to being wonderful once she feels better and is more stable.

 

I'm sorry this is happening to you, I do know a similar situation and he is bipolar and it has been really rough on his wife. Couples therapy will help as well, but get her better first okay. This should be a top priority right now, no matter how hurt or pissed off you are feeling. Your wife LOVES you okay, but isn't thinking properly.

 

Good luck and keep on posting.

[sylviaguardian]

I agree - she needs to get her bi-polar sorted out. High sexual energy and a lack of morals is VERY common in the manic phase. Your wife might be totally different when she is better able to control this and if you allow her to act on her compulsions she might later think that you just don't care. You are allowing your wife to put herself in potentially degrading situations when she is clearly unwell.

 

In the long-term I don't believe that it will be good for either or you or your marriage to allow this continue. Your wife needs support now, not a licence to continue in erractic uncontrollable ways.

 

Also, do you really think that this is the best thing for you in the long term? OK you get a kick out of it now but how are you going to live long-term with not being able to trust your wife?

 

Please keep us posted.

 

Sylvia

[Cecelius]

Is there such a thing as FWB that includes marriage?

 

Frankly, I'm not sure you're getting the best end of this: you're married in all the traditional senses in terms of economics, but you're not getting the marital relations?

 

I agree that no one can judge you (in the sense of it having any effect) so I'm not sure what you can learn here. However, it does seem to me that there is a humiliation-fantasy aspect to this, which would explain why I guess you were feeling excited and betrayed at the same time. Personally, that wouldn't strike me as a very healthy or proud way to be, but that's just me.

 

Further on, it seems unlikely that a lifestyle that requires EXTREME discipline, stoicism and self control is ideal for your partner when she is not a strong woman.