Atheist struggling with Santa

[Robert Z]

I don't think I could. But I'd be honest about how I feel about God and why.

 

 

 

Good. As much as I despise religion, we cannot rule out the possibility that there is more to life than what we see. This would be my greatest concern about your position: I can understand not wanting to lie to your child. But I also think there is a danger of setting too many artificial limits. The universe really is a place of great mystery. And the last thing the world needs is a generation of closed minds.

 

 

It is just as easy to defeat a devout non-believer in a debate as it is a true believer. Logic dictates that we simply cannot know the full picture. And many people mistake cynicism for skepticism.

 

 

Science assumes that everything observed can be explained through natural laws that are consequences of the nature of space-time and energy. So science is self limiting by definition. But people often falsely point to this artificial limitation as evidence of something - just a pet peeve of mine. Interestingly, many physicists now question whether physics can ever be unified. In short, some people are giving up on our ability to complete our understanding of space, time, and matter.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Robert Z

[happydate]

I don't see harm, I want to avoid being a hypocrite, which I would be because of how I feel about God and Santa.

 

You need to understand that you are programming your children to accept your personal beliefs and views about God and Santa. Whether your children believe in God or Santa and celebrate Christmas will be up to them when they are grown adults. You will then have no control over their choices, but also keep in mind that the general population embrace Christmas and Santa, so you also need to prepare your children to become high self-esteem and confident individuals. If you intend to program your kids to go against cultural uniformity, you better be prepared to instill high confidence and high esteem values on to them, because this is a skill they will need to go against the herd. Failure to do that, they may become isolated, depressed and have some form of anxiety later in their adult life.

 

Why do you have to look so far into the future for them? You don't know what your children think and they mostly will think differently than you. If you have insecurities already because you are afraid of being called a hypocrite by your children later on in life, what do you think your children may experience in their adult lives by other adult individuals where you had no control in how they are raised?

Edited December 2, 2013 by happydate

[ThatsJustHowIRoll]

Im an atheist. I have 3 kids. We do Santa (the hallmark version).

 

Christmas was originally a pagan winter solstice festival hijacked by the christians to make religion more palatable. Its OK to celebrate the holidays. We dont put a religious meaning to it.

 

ETA: The difference I see is that eventually, my kids will figure it out and I will come clean about Santa, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy...its part of the magic of being a kid.

 

Religion is about teaching God and Jesus and miracles as truth - which I simply cant believe, and therefore will not teach to my children as truth.

Edited December 2, 2013 by ThatsJustHowIRoll

[keepontruckin]

As an Atheist, the OP is an embarrassment.

 

As Atheists, we don't shut out cultural norms. We embrace them from wherever we live. Why? It's something to do! We know that modern day Santa is a creation of Coca Cola. We know that Halloween is "bad"...

 

We know the originating factor of everything, and what it is worth!

 

And that's how we roll... It's fun for the kids!

 

A real Atheist would not even post such crap as the OP has.

[Silly_Girl]

You need to understand that you are programming your children to accept your personal beliefs and views about God and Santa. Whether your children believe in God or Santa and celebrate Christmas will be up to them when they are grown adults. You will then have no control over their choices, but also keep in mind that the general population embrace Christmas and Santa, so you also need to prepare your children to become high self-esteem and confident individuals. If you intend to program your kids to go against cultural uniformity, you better be prepared to instill high confidence and high esteem values on to them, because this is a skill they will need to go against the herd. Failure to do that, they may become isolated, depressed and have some form of anxiety later in their adult life.

 

Why do you have to look so far into the future for them? You don't know what your children think and they mostly will think differently than you. If you have insecurities already because you are afraid of being called a hypocrite by your children later on in life, what do you think your children may experience in their adult lives by other adult individuals where you had no control in how they are raised?

 

I can't control their views and opinions past a certain age, but in the early years, absolutely it's possible. Inevitable. Which is why the Santa thing has come up. Religion... they can do that stuff in their own time.

 

As for being called a hypocrite by my kids, I never said that. It's BEING a hypocrite I'm concerned about, this is and always has been about me being uncomfortable with doing and saying something in complete contrast to another aspect I feel strongly about.

[Silly_Girl]

Christmas was originally a pagan winter solstice festival hijacked by the christians to make religion more palatable. Its OK to celebrate the holidays. We dont put a religious meaning to it.

 

I agree entirely. My issue is not about Christmas being related to religion at all.

[Silly_Girl]

As an Atheist, the OP is an embarrassment.

 

As Atheists, we don't shut out cultural norms. We embrace them from wherever we live. Why? It's something to do! We know that modern day Santa is a creation of Coca Cola. We know that Halloween is "bad"...

 

We know the originating factor of everything, and what it is worth!

 

And that's how we roll... It's fun for the kids!

 

A real Atheist would not even post such crap as the OP has.

 

My post isn't really from the point of view of an atheist. That's just the explanation as to why I don't like the lying to children about something supernatural. If you read it you will see it's not about Christmas being linked (or not) to religion. It's about me not feeling comfortable in the shared public pretence/conspiracy of Santa, the likes of which I have felt and seen elsewhere. We celebrate Christmas and will continue to do so. The only question is whether Santa will be a character in a story and not part of real life, or whether he will watch our children, make presents and come in to our home to deliver them.

[happydate]

I can't control their views and opinions past a certain age, but in the early years, absolutely it's possible. Inevitable. Which is why the Santa thing has come up. Religion... they can do that stuff in their own time.

 

As for being called a hypocrite by my kids, I never said that. It's BEING a hypocrite I'm concerned about, this is and always has been about me being uncomfortable with doing and saying something in complete contrast to another aspect I feel strongly about.

 

I realize that one of the biggest reason many of us do not step into "who we really are in this lifetime" is due to FEAR.

 

A few years back, I attended a psychological workshop where a speaker talked about this and it is affecting a whole slew of people. He named FEAR as False Evidence About Reality. I sometimes named it False Evidence Augmented Reality which is pretty much the same. And this is what you are experiencing now. It is a psychological imbalance perhaps in your part because you must do your part to impose your views and beliefs upon your kids. Please let me explain..

 

Our whole life is based upon the story of those who influence us the most in our lives and the story of the Collective Unconscious since day one. Who is to say or judge everything we were taught and/or the way we were taught what we know was correct? For example, a tree is a tree because someone said it was. If we were told that tree was a foot and no one else intervened, we would spend our life believing that this was true. Thus it could be true to say that who we are today may be based upon the influence, and sometimes approval of some outside force. False Evidence exists everywhere, because unfortunately we are products of a fear based society. Just look at the recent Walmart Black Friday fiasco where a young lady fought tooth and nail for a 23" TV almost as though she was fighting for survival like someone who hadn't had food and water for ages. Why is that?

If you watch TV everyday and believe the stories that you hear through media you would soon be a controlled fear-based being. And in the United States Of America, we are very good at marketing and commercializing this fear to get people to spend especially on national holidays!! You always make the choice about how you frame your reality and how you assist those those in your care (your children) to frame theirs!!

 

For those who are meant to take care of the bigger picture do not always hold the vision of the whole in mind. Therefore, it is best when you impart your views and beliefs to your children, you should do them based NOT ON FEAR. If you based on FEAR, that beliefs and views can be contaminated with your own psychological imbalances that cause your fear to be imparted upon your kids, causing them to live in an Augmented Reality!

 

Why I said your kids can call you a hypocrite? Well that's because your children will eventually transcend OVER your own fears you imparted to them when they were young. This is unavoidable because adults will make their own personal choices. Once they caught wind that you are teaching that a tree is a foot, when it is not, then they will call on you; the influential authority figure who they were raised from.

 

I was an Atheist myself and did not believe in God, but then I made the choice to transcend over the fear of the Lord and embrace him dearly. And yes, I called my parents hypocrites because how dare they told me that I shall not believe in the Lord. But we all healed and they are now more willing to accept the Lord than they were before. Their ignorance and their fears help created my Augmented Reality. It's almost funny that I had to see a few therapists and gone through EFT and hyponsis with my own money to correct my False Evidence back to reality and heal and be happy.

 

Just saying this to you as my experience as a child is a similar experience your children will go through.

 

Blessings.

Edited December 2, 2013 by happydate

[Mr Scorpio]

I was an Atheist myself and did not believe in God, but then I made the choice to transcend over the fear of the Lord and embrace him dearly.

 

Or, from a different point of view, you were an atheist, you became afraid, and you let your decisions guide your beliefs rather than the other way around?

[happydate]

Or, from a different point of view, you were an atheist, you became afraid, and you let your decisions guide your beliefs rather than the other way around?

 

If I am an Atheist and I am raising my children on an island with other Atheists or on an island with just me and my kids, why would I need teach Santa, Christmas or even the existence of God? If I don't mention any of these beings to my kids, they will never find out unless of course they start developing their own abilities to commune with the Lord. This ability is by the way inherently built into all of us!

 

But let's just say you have no ability to commune with the Lord and you live in an isolated island. An Atheist parent wouldn't need to educate the children about the existence of God and Santa. Why would they?

 

They would only do this because they realize we live in a connected world. And that someday these children may learn that a tree isn't really a foot. So in a way, it is the fear of the parents that the kids might form a different opinion and that might some day bite back in their rear. So in a way, it's a fear defence mechanism, because children had no say nor choice in being who they really are and their parents make choices for them usually out of fear.

 

I was an atheist once not because I was in fear. I was an atheist because I had no choice. That choice was made by my parents because of fear. Fear that I would not make the right choices. But why is it all up to them? Can I not make my own choices?

Edited December 3, 2013 by happydate

[Silly_Girl]

I honestly don't buy this 'fear your children will form different opinions to you' stuff. As parents we pretty much expect that, don't we? Certainly fear has no bearing on what led to my OP. There's no risk of harm either way, IMO.

[Outsider77]

In defense of atheists, I just want to say that I am an atheist but let my child go to church and be a Christian because I feel that it is not my choice to make.

 

When my child asks why I don't believe in god, I explain my reasons and say that everyone has the choice to believe in what they want. I've also explained that one should always use common sense and that you should only believe what makes sense to you. If something your religion tells you doesn't ring true, then use your brain and make up your own mind.

 

I don't feel that it's really any of my business what my children believe, as long as what they believe in isn't harmful to them or to others.

[happydate]

I honestly don't buy this 'fear your children will form different opinions to you' stuff. As parents we pretty much expect that, don't we? Certainly fear has no bearing on what led to my OP. There's no risk of harm either way, IMO.

 

What you need to look at your children is that, your child is a separate being with its own free will. When you bring the child into the world, you have a certain responsibility to give that child the best possible start in life. Yet there comes a point when the child must leave the nest and take responsibility for its own life. When the child is old enough to make its own decisions, or when it reaches a point of complete rebellion or rejection of you as a parent, you are no longer responsible for the child's choices. For that matter, you are never responsible for your child’s choices, although while the child is younger you do have a responsibility to help it make the best possible choices in a positive manner.

 

In a negative manner matter of speaking is when a parent try to impose their views and beliefs upon a child against his or her own free will when they can not form their own choices , because when a child is young, the child lacks developed cognitive reasoning. As a parent, you must not impose your own reasoning to the child, but rather act as a guide and counsellor for the child and provide the best possible experience for the child and bring as much positive reinforcement in a positive manner.

 

When you start projecting your fears into the future just because you fear your children will call you a hypocrite if they realize God and Santa are not true is not of your concern really. There are literally thousands of former Christians who were brought up by Christian parents, go to Sunday school and now have become Atheists because they do not believe in a fearful God.

The problem with religion is that, we espouse FEAR in people to submit to God. That wasn't the intention of God's plan. But all human beings tend to espouse fear in others to obtain power and control. United States of America is good at that with its arsenal of aircraft carriers, tanks and guns and technology to exact fear in other nations to align their views and beliefs with, guest who, the Americans.

 

But then, do you get peace with this approach?

Edited December 3, 2013 by happydate

[Silly_Girl]

What you need to look at your children is that, your child is a separate being with its own free will. When you bring the child into the world, you have a certain responsibility to give that child the best possible start in life. Yet there comes a point when the child must leave the nest and take responsibility for its own life. When the child is old enough to make its own decisions, or when it reaches a point of complete rebellion or rejection of you as a parent, you are no longer responsible for the child's choices. For that matter, you are never responsible for your child’s choices, although while the child is younger you do have a responsibility to help it make the best possible choices in a positive manner.

 

In a negative manner matter of speaking is when a parent try to impose their views and beliefs upon a child against his or her own free will when they can not form their own choices , because when a child is young, the child lacks developed cognitive reasoning. As a parent, you must not impose your own reasoning to the child, but rather act as a guide and counsellor for the child and provide the best possible experience for the child and bring as much positive reinforcement in a positive manner.

 

When you start projecting your fears into the future just because you fear your children will call you a hypocrite if they realize God and Santa are not true is not of your concern really. There are literally thousands of former Christians who were brought up by Christian parents, go to Sunday school and now have become Atheists because they do not believe in a fearful God.

The problem with religion is that, we espouse FEAR in people to submit to God. That wasn't the intention of God's plan. But all human beings tend to espouse fear in others to obtain power and control. United States of America is good at that with its arsenal of aircraft carriers, tanks and guns and technology to exact fear in other nations to align their views and beliefs with, guest who, the Americans.

 

But then, do you get peace with this approach?

 

I have read this through more than once and I don't perceive it to be a response to my post, or perhaps you are not reading what I've written, so I'll move on. Happy holidays!

[Thegreatestthing]

Santa is just a beautiful old symbol of some beautiful old traditions that bring a lot of happiness,tradition is a guide not a jailer,your seriousness over the matter is quite comical.

[Silly_Girl]

Santa is just a beautiful old symbol of some beautiful old traditions that bring a lot of happiness,tradition is a guide not a jailer,your seriousness over the matter is quite comical.

 

It *is* funny, we've laughed about it at home! It's just not a debate any of us have come across before and many people wouldn't give it the merest thought.

 

But I do have strong feelings about religion, to the point that I'd be mortified if I was doing the same thing I am opposed to, and hadn't even noticed. I don't make any apology for taking that seriously. I take parenting seriously to be honest, despite it being the most rewarding and fun experience I've ever had.

[jimloveslips]

I think you are over-thinking this.

 

Yes Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all the rest are as imaginary as God but none of them say (through self imposed interpreters) that you can't believe in the other, nor do they impose sexual, physical, medical, gender or religious rules on how to live your life - they are just fun!

 

Ok so Santa says you should be good, but isn't that a human societal trait we should encourage?

 

When my kid was young I liked Christmas - frankly I loath it now, and the whole of the cesspit of hypocrisy that goes with it. I refuse to take part. But I see nothing wrong with allowing children to experience it - story telling IS the oldest tradition we have, the trick is to understand when it is pure fantasy or whether the narrative is providing valuable life lessons, something you can have fun with your kids about, so they will know how to interpret stories, and pass on the same gift to their children.

[Tiger Lily]

I think you are over-thinking this.

 

Yes Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all the rest are as imaginary as God but none of them say (through self imposed interpreters) that you can't believe in the other, nor do they impose sexual, physical, medical, gender or religious rules on how to live your life - they are just fun!

 

 

As others on this thread, your cynicism is clear. I agree with you that the comparison between imaginary, fun-filled characters idolized by 5 year-olds can, in no practical way, be compared to the Creator of the Universe!

 

 

I still don't understand the mindset of the OP, who makes this comparison repeatedly. It just seems like an unnecessary attack against those who have faith; saying that believers in a God have a "child-like belief, like a kid who believes in Santa".

 

 

Hopefully the OP realizes that many minds much greater and wiser than hers or mine have put their faith in God. Continuously disdaining those who thinking differently, is not only insulting, but really reflects more on her own attitude, than anything else.

[jimloveslips]

that many minds much greater and wiser than hers or mine have put their faith in God

 

Yes, the same ones that used to believe the Earth was flat, and that everything revolved around it.

 

Knowledge evolves, we should too.

[Tiger Lily]

Yes, the same ones that used to believe the Earth was flat, and that everything revolved around it.

 

Knowledge evolves, we should too.

 

 

 

Are you implying that you're more intelligent than those who came before us? And that you hold no beliefs that will, most likely, one day be scoffed at?

 

 

Knowledge does not equal intelligence, or wisdom. But true freedom comes in faith...faith in God and faith in Jesus.

[jimloveslips]

Are you implying that you're more intelligent than those who came before us?.

 

Me, myself, I? No.

Me, as in mankind? Yes.

(Google the Flynn effect)

 

 

And that you hold no beliefs that will, most likely, one day be scoffed at?.

 

I don't hold beliefs.

I only allow truth into my heart...

 

 

Knowledge does not equal intelligence, or wisdom.

 

Well you sure are smarter than me, that's too metaphysical for me - I'd rather learn than accept.

 

 

But true freedom comes in faith...faith in God and faith in Jesus.

 

True freedom? Where did that come from in relation to Atheists and Santa?

True Freedom comes from knowledge, not delusion. You can believe you are free, but adherence to any dogma is slavery to idolatry.

[Silly_Girl]

As others on this thread, your cynicism is clear. I agree with you that the comparison between imaginary, fun-filled characters idolized by 5 year-olds can, in no practical way, be compared to the Creator of the Universe!

 

 

I still don't understand the mindset of the OP, who makes this comparison repeatedly. It just seems like an unnecessary attack against those who have faith; saying that believers in a God have a "child-like belief, like a kid who believes in Santa".

 

 

Hopefully the OP realizes that many minds much greater and wiser than hers or mine have put their faith in God. Continuously disdaining those who thinking differently, is not only insulting, but really reflects more on her own attitude, than anything else.

 

You see, that *is* how I feel about believing in God. I fully appreciate you feel differently and are probably insulted by the view I (and others) hold, but it is because I hold it that I have had the thought process I have had. It seems you disagree with my view, but understand the crux of my post, so thank you.

[steveT95]

I haven't read this entire thread but..

 

Santa is just fun. You don't commit your life to him as a child, you simply look forward to the presents in the morning and leaving a mince pie out for him (You!) to eat when the kid is asleep.

It's part of the magical wonder of Christmas that can't be recaptured as you get older. Don't deprive your children of such fun because of your atheism. Atheism isn't a religion, and there isn't rules to it so you can't be much of a hypocrite. And personally I'd rather be a good parent, and let my child enjoy the belief of Santa for the few short years that they do believe.

[Tiger Lily]

You see, that *is* how I feel about believing in God. I fully appreciate you feel differently and are probably insulted by the view I (and others) hold, but it is because I hold it that I have had the thought process I have had. It seems you disagree with my view, but understand the crux of my post, so thank you.

 

 

I don't feel insulted. I feel sad that you feel justified in your stance. That you think it's perfectly fine to disdain others. Your attitude doesn't offend me, it makes me feel sorry for you.

[Tiger Lily]

True freedom? Where did that come from in relation to Atheists and Santa? True Freedom comes from knowledge, not delusion. You can believe you are free, but adherence to any dogma is slavery to idolatry.

 

 

This is the spirituality forum, and in a post asking for debate about the (non)existence of God and Santa Claus, posters are allowed to offer differing points of view.

 

 

You seem to hold the knowledge you have, as a "modern man", in high regard. Implying that your superiority somehow comes through your capacity to learn (almost as if you think you're infallible...). Well, security, happiness, peace, joy...none of those things will be found by relying on your own "knowledge". No, those things come from knowing that you are loved by God, and your fallibility can be remedied by putting your faith in the price Jesus paid for you.