Atheist struggling with Santa

[jimloveslips]

You seem to hold the knowledge you have, as a "modern man", in high regard..

 

As opposed to? I should be ashamed to be educated?

Yes, I'm very happy that I am an educated person.

"Modern man"? Yes, I am living in the 21st Century, not dragging my knuckles playing with dinosaurs.

 

Implying that your superiority somehow comes through your capacity to learn

 

Wow, you really do not like education or the pursuit of knowledge!

 

How did you "learn" about your god? Was it some osmosis that you just inherited? Did you instinctively acquire your religiosity the second you were born? Or did you read… did others "teach" you? Tell me how does a baby know god other than to be introduced to him as he/she grows?

 

 

Well, security, happiness, peace, joy...none of those things will be found by relying on your own "knowledge".

 

I completely disagree.

I am sure you have daily experiences where you rely on past experiences or learnt behavior, like crossing at a traffic light (or do you just blindly step out into traffic trusting your god will protect you?)

 

 

As for the spirituality forum: that does not mean it is limited to religion or god. I have very spiritual experiences discovering new things including (but not limited to) nature, art, music, history, nature, physics, astronomy, and above all new knowledge, every day. Reading and otherwise acquiring of knowledge is a spiritual joy for me, I experience a state of happiness, and love that wonder on discovering something new. After all I am a human being, evolved to strive for new knowledge, new experiences, and be in awe of new insights to the world we live in. To have a mind that is willing to explore, that is true freedom.

[Silly_Girl]

I don't feel insulted. I feel sad that you feel justified in your stance. That you think it's perfectly fine to disdain others. Your attitude doesn't offend me, it makes me feel sorry for you.

 

I honestly don't believe I've been disdainful. I have not ridiculed anyone else's point of view, simply stated what mine is. I have not called others names or mocked them. I simply wanted to discuss with others who may understand where I was coming from. I see no need for pity, in either direction.

[Tiger Lily]

As opposed to? I should be ashamed to be educated?

Yes, I'm very happy that I am an educated person.

"Modern man"? Yes, I am living in the 21st Century, not dragging my knuckles playing with dinosaurs.

 

Wow, you really do not like education or the pursuit of knowledge!

 

How did you "learn" about your god? Was it some osmosis that you just inherited? Did you instinctively acquire your religiosity the second you were born? Or did you read… did others "teach" you? Tell me how does a baby know god other than to be introduced to him as he/she grows?

 

I completely disagree.

I am sure you have daily experiences where you rely on past experiences or learnt behavior, like crossing at a traffic light (or do you just blindly step out into traffic trusting your god will protect you?)

 

 

Definitely taking my words out of context there. Nothing against education or knowledge. I just think, ultimately, faith in God is much more important in our lives.

 

 

As for the spirituality forum: that does not mean it is limited to religion or god. I have very spiritual experiences discovering new things including (but not limited to) nature, art, music, history, nature, physics, astronomy, and above all new knowledge, every day. Reading and otherwise acquiring of knowledge is a spiritual joy for me, I experience a state of happiness, and love that wonder on discovering something new. After all I am a human being, evolved to strive for new knowledge, new experiences, and be in awe of new insights to the world we live in. To have a mind that is willing to explore, that is true freedom.

 

 

I guess I disagree with your definition of "spiritual". While I also admire the wonders of the world we live in, their spiritual elements are connect to being a creation of God. As one day, this world will be destroyed, I will continue to find utmost wonder in the Creator of the amazing world we live in.

[Tiger Lily]

I honestly don't believe I've been disdainful. I have not ridiculed anyone else's point of view, simply stated what mine is. I have not called others names or mocked them. I simply wanted to discuss with others who may understand where I was coming from. I see no need for pity, in either direction.

 

 

 

Sorry. I don't think you're seeing my point.

 

 

So, happy holidays.

[BOREDouttaMymind]

actually, its the athiests who brought santa into Christmas in the first place. not judging here, but when you think about it, Christmas is really about Jesus, not some dude in a red hat.

 

so... technically you should want to celebrate with santa claus cause it has nothing to do with the real reason for the holiday.

[Mr Scorpio]

actually, its the athiests who brought santa into Christmas in the first place. not judging here, but when you think about it, Christmas is really about Jesus, not some dude in a red hat

 

The modern figure of Santa Claus was derived from the Dutch figure of Sinterklaas, which, in turn, was part of its basis in hagiographical tales concerning the historical figure of Christian bishop and gift giver Saint Nicholas. During the Christianization of Germanic Europe, this figure may have absorbed elements of the god Odin, who was associated with the Germanic pagan midwinter event of Yule and led the WildHunt, a ghostly procession through the sky.

 

I think it fair to say that the above isn't very indicative of something an atheist would create.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Mr Scorpio

[Silly_Girl]

actually, its the athiests who brought santa into Christmas in the first place. not judging here, but when you think about it, Christmas is really about Jesus, not some dude in a red hat.

 

so... technically you should want to celebrate with santa claus cause it has nothing to do with the real reason for the holiday.

 

I addressed that earlier, but thanks, it's a popular argument

[jimloveslips]

actually, its the athiests who brought santa into Christmas

 

Not according to Wiki...

 

 

Later:

Ah, I see Mr Scorpio already beat me to it...

[writergal]

History of Santa Claus:

 

Dutch created him first with Sinter Klaas..History of Santa Claus

 

St. Nicholas Center ::: Origin of Santa

 

I'm an Atheist (although was raised Catholic) and I was glad my parents let my siblings and I believe in Santa Claus throughout our childhood. It was fun to imagine (there's that word, "imagine") that this magical person with his elves and reindeer visited every single person's house on one night. I think I stopped believing around 12 years old, when I caught my parents filing our stockings and eating the cookies that we'd left out for Santa Claus, when I snuck downstairs to catch a glimpse of him b/c I couldn't sleep. My parents expressions were priceless: "Oh sh**!" lol! I was confused but then caught on and the next year, gave my parents the JCPenny catalog and said, "here's my list...Santaahem. It was very funny to say the least.

 

Let your children enjoy the myth and commercialism of Christmas. They'll outgrow it sooner than you think and won't be traumatized by the fact that Santa is just a commercial concept created to sell products once a year b/c who doesn't love to receive FREE stuff from their parents?!

[writergal]

actually, its the athiests who brought santa into Christmas in the first place. not judging here, but when you think about it, Christmas is really about Jesus, not some dude in a red hat.

 

so... technically you should want to celebrate with santa claus cause it has nothing to do with the real reason for the holiday.

 

No, it was the Dutch who introduced Santa Claus into American culture as a character from folklore.

 

Wiki explains it better. Santa Claus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Speakingofwhich]

My siblings and I were taught that God is real and Santa isn't. But, we had a Christmas tree and Santa was part of our Christmas in that we used him in decorations, etc.

 

Celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, was and has always been a bigger part of the Christmas spirit to me than Santa, the reindeer, Christmas tree, etc., has been.

 

The reason that we weren't taught to believe in the Santa concept is that my parents believed that "Truth" is the most important thing to base your life and life experiences on.

 

In the spirit of truth, we also learned at an early age that Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25 but rather sometime in the spring.

 

Neither of my parents ever told me anything that was even so much as a white lie my entire life. I felt secure in knowing that I could trust whatever either one of them had to say.

 

I've done the same with my own kids who are now grown and teaching their children the same concept of Truth.

 

However, we have great fun on all holidays and celebrate to the hilt! Not believing in Santa took nothing away from my childhood Christmases! And I never went through the disappointment of discovering he wasn't real.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Figuring out Santa isn't real is a rite of passage.

 

I was 8 years old. Things weren't adding up. So I finally ask my mother in a serious tone, "Santa isn't real, is he?" and she admits the truth.

 

First I felt smart for figuring it out, then I felt like a sucker for believing in something so outlandish. Finally, I appreciated what the lie means to people.

 

Also, it strengthened my cynicism and skeptical nature. Once that lie was uncovered, I wondered what else was a lie. Fool me once, shame on you...

 

The blinders came off and I feel like a took a step forward.

[pie2]

No, it was the Dutch who introduced Santa Claus into American culture as a character from folklore.

 

Wiki explains it better. Santa Claus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

There's a lot of controversy about how exactly Santa came into being. But there has been a fair share of resistance from the Christian church that the idea was anything "religious" or "spiritual".

 

 

Santa Claus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

My siblings and I were taught that God is real and Santa isn't. But, we had a Christmas tree and Santa was part of our Christmas in that we used him in decorations, etc.

 

Celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, was and has always been a bigger part of the Christmas spirit to me than Santa, the reindeer, Christmas tree, etc., has been.

 

The reason that we weren't taught to believe in the Santa concept is that my parents believed that "Truth" is the most important thing to base your life and life experiences on.

 

In the spirit of truth, we also learned at an early age that Jesus Christ wasn't born on December 25 but rather sometime in the spring.

 

Neither of my parents ever told me anything that was even so much as a white lie my entire life. I felt secure in knowing that I could trust whatever either one of them had to say.

 

I've done the same with my own kids who are now grown and teaching their children the same concept of Truth.

 

However, we have great fun on all holidays and celebrate to the hilt! Not believing in Santa took nothing away from my childhood Christmases! And I never went through the disappointment of discovering he wasn't real.

 

 

I love this! Glad you weren't too traumatized as a child .

[jimloveslips]

My siblings and I were taught that God is real and Santa isn't.

 

My point to Tiger.

 

Taught.

 

So, if your were taught some other belief you would say that was the "truth".

 

How does a child learn about god other than to be taught it? It's dogma, no different than learning your times table by rote without knowing how to actually calculate a sum… learning your ABC without being able to write a word, or even know that words were symbols for actual things.

 

You cannot "absorb" god without being taught (indoctrinated), but you can drop a child into a jungle (with it's parents) and have it learn everything about survival without ever hearing about a god…

 

Belief in the supernatural is a by product of a developing and evolving brain, a resource we no longer need to cling to, it served us well in the past, but it evolved to bind small groups of people to work together and survive - we don't need a few billion here and a few billion there at war with each other over who's god is better.

[happydate]

My point to Tiger.

 

Taught.

 

So, if your were taught some other belief you would say that was the "truth".

 

How does a child learn about god other than to be taught it? It's dogma, no different than learning your times table by rote without knowing how to actually calculate a sum… learning your ABC without being able to write a word, or even know that words were symbols for actual things.

 

You cannot "absorb" god without being taught (indoctrinated), but you can drop a child into a jungle (with it's parents) and have it learn everything about survival without ever hearing about a god…

 

Belief in the supernatural is a by product of a developing and evolving brain, a resource we no longer need to cling to, it served us well in the past, but it evolved to bind small groups of people to work together and survive - we don't need a few billion here and a few billion there at war with each other over who's god is better.

 

The question here is, what is reality and what is perceptual reality?

 

NASA scientists had developed programs for astronauts to be able to live in space and not feel vision sick. That's because in space, you are also more likely be flying UPSIDE DOWN. So how do you train these astronauts to be comfortable with that?

 

Wear reverse googles to turn your vision upside down on earth for 30 days so you train your brain to accept that reality as normal. Yes, that's right! NASA had found that a human being will need a total of 30 continuous days of wearing these googles to train the subconscious mind to accept a new altered reality. It will take another 25 to 30 days to change the subconscious again to the normal reality.

 

What does our TV media. education system and reality shows spew these days? Isn't it fear, violence and control? It's constant, obviously for more than 30 days straight correct or perhaps 365 days a year? And don't get me into Xbox and Playstation games.. What about Christian messages? You see them on Xbox or Playstation games? Do you see them daily on your soap operas? Seemed to me that only on Sundays, Easter, Christmas that they are aired! That's not even enough continuous days to brain wash people effectively compared to fear and violence that's on TV daily! Fear, control dogma and violence have more air time than God messages.

 

Then why people still think God is a threat? And yet fear, violence and death are acceptable form of teachings to you?

 

It's funny that God doesn't have to spend much advertising air time and yet, some people still believe in him. Seemed to me like God's messages flow effortlessly than any other mediums spouted out there.

Edited December 10, 2013 by happydate

[Speakingofwhich]

My point to Tiger.

 

Taught.

 

So, if your were taught some other belief you would say that was the "truth".

 

How does a child learn about god other than to be taught it? It's dogma, no different than learning your times table by rote without knowing how to actually calculate a sum… learning your ABC without being able to write a word, or even know that words were symbols for actual things.

 

You cannot "absorb" god without being taught (indoctrinated), but you can drop a child into a jungle (with it's parents) and have it learn everything about survival without ever hearing about a god…

 

Belief in the supernatural is a by product of a developing and evolving brain, a resource we no longer need to cling to, it served us well in the past, but it evolved to bind small groups of people to work together and survive - we don't need a few billion here and a few billion there at war with each other over who's god is better.

 

Not really.

 

We were taught that God is real and I have learned it in the years since through countless experiences with Him! Coming into the knowledge of God is not a one time thing.

 

God has the ability to teach people about Himself without the aid of other persons.

[jimloveslips]

God has the ability to teach people about Himself without the aid of other persons.

 

Please explain.

How does that happen?

[jimloveslips]

It's funny that God doesn't have to spend much advertising air time and yet, some people still believe in him. Seemed to me like God's messages flow effortlessly than any other mediums spouted out there.

 

You're way too smart for me, everything before the above para was completely over my head, I have no idea what it meant to show.

 

But I have to take issue with that last bit: God is advertising everywhere all the time! (Apologies to all non-Americans for the following)

 

It's practically a requirement for most religions to proselytize. It's practically impossible for anyone on tv not to thank god for their latest success.

 

It's on every America bill…

 

It's in courts of law, it's in the pledge of Allegiance.

 

And I didn't even include churches and all their clerics.

 

Please, god is advertising as hard as Macy's...

[Speakingofwhich]

Please explain.

How does that happen?

 

 

There is no way it can be explained to a person who has never met Him, my friend! Coming into a knowledge of God can only be experienced! If you ask Him with an honest heart it will be explained to you by Him in His way and in His time!

[stillafool]

I went to school with a Jehovah witness kid. It was sad that she wasn't allowed to participate in celebrating just about anything. It seems really cruel for a parent to do that to a kid.

 

I've worked with Jehova witnesses and they had no problem participating in taking the Christmas bonuses.

[happydate]

You're way too smart for me, everything before the above para was completely over my head, I have no idea what it meant to show.

 

But I have to take issue with that last bit: God is advertising everywhere all the time! (Apologies to all non-Americans for the following)

 

It's practically a requirement for most religions to proselytize. It's practically impossible for anyone on tv not to thank god for their latest success.

 

It's on every America bill…

 

It's in courts of law, it's in the pledge of Allegiance.

 

And I didn't even include churches and all their clerics.

 

Please, god is advertising as hard as Macy's...

 

It's not difficult to figure out my first paragraph. It takes 30 days of continuous retraining to change a habit or a belief. This is the amount of time for the brain to form new neural pathways over the existing pathways. Normal reality vs perceptual reality. But it will take another 30 days to revert back to the existing pathways. So the key is continual validation of this new perceptual reality through validation of others -- the media, games, people and culture. In the case of the astronauts, the continual validation after the perceptual training is in space. In space, you're upside down so that effect validates their perceptual reality. HOWEVER, once they are on earth, their upside down vision must revert back to reality because that's what you'll see on earth. Normal vision validated by Earth's reality!!

 

Fantastic! Now you realized God is on almost every facet of your life since the dawn of time. Why is that? Or is it actual reality that God exists and yet people like yourself who try so hard to deviate from our reality to your own reality by continually denying God, taunting God and hating God so that your constant belligerent actions can alter our current reality to that of your perceptual reality?

 

Jesus Christ had always said that the Kingdom of God is within of all of us.

What that means is that, we are the seed of God's creation. We are his creation and that in each of us, we have a built-in REBOOT firmware (computer terms ok) that will awaken us to the existence of God. Even, Satan, Lucifer and all of his demonic demons have this REBOOT firmware software built-in. No one, not even Lucifer can remove this REBOOT firmware away from his soul and spirit and neither can you. Which is why Lucifer taught Satan to promote FEAR and THREATS among all of his demonic beings and to continually self-validate them by being in their presence. The same fear and threats that bullies in real physical world use.

 

So what do most Atheist and non-believers do in the face of this predicament? Well, let's brainwash ourselves and brainwash others so they can validate us. That's why people like yourself need others to co-validate your beliefs. You need others to validate your perceptual reality so you maintain this reality. Fear is the motivation for this validation.

 

Whereas with people who believe in God, LOVE is the motivation for this validation and as we self-validate each other based on Love, the reboot firmware kicks in and that we are made aware of the existence of the Lord.

 

History had shown that many people and the power elite who hate and try to eliminate God through physical means have not had much success. People like Adolf Hitler and Stalin don't seem to have much effect on God despite the many humans they killed in the name of Satanic influences or false beliefs.

 

Blessings.

Edited December 10, 2013 by happydate

[jimloveslips]

That's why people like yourself need others to co-validate your beliefs.

 

Yes, that's why we all hang out in mega churches…

 

your perceptual reality so you maintain this reality.

 

I really wish my perceptual reality didn't have a mortgage or car payment in it. I must work on that.

 

eliminate God through physical means...People like Adolf Hitler and Stalin...Satanic influences or false beliefs.

 

Ah yes, all atheists are Hitlerites, Stalinists, and/or Satan worshipers.

 

History shows, by far, the worst atrocities were committed in the name of one god or another.

[William]

The report read 'Thread is veering off course. Danger! Danger!' and it appears to be correct. I'll leave what exists alone but direct members to address the topic and refrain from general discussion of religion versus atheism. Thanks!

[WhoreyBull]

Aye, caption! Back on course.

I am pretty sure santa claus started from the story of a "saint" who gave gifts and either gave/got a special feast. (Any clarification?)

I am also an athiest, but I feel like encouraging gift giving is a nice thing.

Though I don't believe in saints, I do think this guy probably existed.

Either way, they have santa here in Japan, and also in China, and Korea. Korea has many christians but the two former care nothing. Considering how "saint" is distorted in the english version is "sinnderclaus" (spelling.... ya, wrong) I doubt your children could ever make the connection.

That being said, I think going to a religous school solidified I would be an athiest.

Do you do "tooth fairy"? If so, let them have santa, if you think it is fun.

Children like to think people care for them, just as adults. I think encouraging the jdea that even a stranger should reward good behavior is helpful.

I have met people who don't even really understand the idea of Jesus and they still give their kids, or even friends, gifts from santa.

[amaysngrace]

My personal view is that religion is a conspiracy forced upon children who are too young to exercise their freedom of choice. Even many non-believers perpetuate the myths, knowingly or not.

 

I'm not comfortable with promoting Santa: a fictitious man who does magical things, has supernatural helpers and judges you on your behaviour (be good or he won't come...).

 

To me, I'd be a hypocrite to embrace Father Christmas.

 

Is it worse because people who raise their children within a faith mostly whole-heartedly believe it's real, whereas I would be barefaced lying to my kids by saying 'Santa will visit with presents'.

 

My husband (a more committed atheist than myself) says I'm being daft. Christmas is about harnessing imagination and it's 'for good' and 'fun'. (He escaped religion when he left home for uni) I say that those who embrace a religion may well say the very same things about their chosen beliefs.

 

I'd be very interested in different views on this please!

 

Well since Santa is based on a generous Catholic bishop I'd say you're right not to acknowledge him.

 

But if you complain about adults forcing their beliefs on young children then aren't you being a hypocrite for denying your children St. Nick?