Affair coming up in arguments

[compulsivedancer]

Guys, I'm going to use my thread-starter powers to formally request no more arguments about whether affairs are abuse or not. By my understanding of the definition, they could be depending, but they are definitely traumatic, and what matters is not whether I think it's abuse or not, but whether H does. Because if he feels like he's been abused, then he probably has been. Either way, I f-ed him up badly, and I'm trying to fix him as much as I can.

 

Btw, now that I've requested this, if the discussion continues, you may report future posts arguing about the definition of abuse, and LS will take appropriate action.

 

I appreciate the comments. Lets try to stick to the more constructive vein.

[Realist3]

I read often from some...the belief that "what the BS doesn't know won't hurt them". And then hide behind that in regard to intent during an affair.

 

I would argue..that very thought acknowledges that what they are doing is hurtful, hence the secrecy. If someone knows, that what they are doing would hurt another, then does it anyway...regardless if the other person finds out, the intent was to get away with it....knowing full well...that if they don't get away with it....someone will be hurt. They are playing a shell game. With full knowledge that catastrophe is under one of the shells.

 

Is the intent to hurt? The secrecy aspect certainly says no. Just like I mentioned before the day my kids learn there is no Santa Claus they will be hurt and maybe even crushed. But I know that day will come, and they will be hurt, and felt lied to for years upon years.

 

The point being is that knowing some could or may hurt someone is not equal in intent to purposefully inflicting hurt onto someone for the very purpose of hurting them. The intent of an affair is never to hurt the BS, hence the secrecy.

[peaksandvalleys]

I read often from some...the belief that "what the BS doesn't know won't hurt them". And then hide behind that in regard to intent during an affair.

 

I would argue..that very thought acknowledges that what they are doing is hurtful, hence the secrecy. If someone knows, that what they are doing would hurt another, then does it anyway...regardless if the other person finds out, the intent was to get away with it....knowing full well...that if they don't get away with it....someone will be hurt. They are playing a shell game. With full knowledge that catastrophe is under one of the shells.

 

 

sorry to thread jack. Post removed.

[compulsivedancer]

sorry to thread jack. Post removed.

 

Thanks! No problem. I always hope these arguments will resolve themselves or die out. Sometimes they are interesting and add a lot. This one started out that way, but by the fourth page of it, when people started making listed definitions, it's time to reign the thing back in.

 

Although it would be a great thread. It just needs its OWN thread.

[JustJoe]

Guys, I'm going to use my thread-starter powers to formally request no more arguments about whether affairs are abuse or not. By my understanding of the definition, they could be depending, but they are definitely traumatic, and what matters is not whether I think it's abuse or not, but whether H does. Because if he feels like he's been abused, then he probably has been. Either way, I f-ed him up badly, and I'm trying to fix him as much as I can.

 

Btw, now that I've requested this, if the discussion continues, you may report future posts arguing about the definition of abuse, and LS will take appropriate action.

 

I appreciate the comments. Lets try to stick to the more constructive vein.

Herein lies your biggest problem, CD and also why you should listen to those who counsel that you adopt a patient, remorseful and deferential attitude towards your husband.

You cannot "fix" your husband and it is arrogant and foolish to believe that you can.

[JustJoe]

Instead of trying to manipulate your husband, control his anger, "fix" him, you would be much, much, better off to work on fixing YOU, and let him deal with his issues, himself. This is why IC and MC are different forms of therapy. You can do NOTHING without his willing cooperation, and if you try to force the pace or attempt to control the reconciliation process, you will most likely fail. Because, right now, everything you would suggest would automatically be viewed as further deceit. Work on your issues, and if he sees you doing it, and you prove that you are making progress, then he is much more likely to begin to have positive feelings towards you, and the angry words will subside.

[compulsivedancer]

Instead of trying to manipulate your husband, control his anger, "fix" him, you would be much, much, better off to work on fixing YOU, and let him deal with his issues, himself. This is why IC and MC are different forms of therapy. You can do NOTHING without his willing cooperation, and if you try to force the pace or attempt to control the reconciliation process, you will most likely fail. Because, right now, everything you would suggest would automatically be viewed as further deceit. Work on your issues, and if he sees you doing it, and you prove that you are making progress, then he is much more likely to begin to have positive feelings towards you, and the angry words will subside.

 

Look, I'm not trying to manipulate him, "fix" him, whatever, the way you mean it. I'm just trying to pick up the pieces. This is why we argue for pages about the definition of abuse. My meaning was clear enough. I broke it. I know it can't be fixed, but I want to do whatever I can to fix it.

 

I didn't ask how to manipulate my husband. I asked how to respond to something that comes out of the blue and is extremely hurtful.

 

I never said he wasn't justified. I also never said he was abusing me.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is, how do I have the conversation about money without getting sidetracked by the affair? And if the affair comes up, how do I help him...but also have the conversation about money?

 

Because we need to deal with the affair when it comes up. But we also have to talk about money. Guys, we're buying our first house, I have a relatively new job, we want to have kids some day. If we can't discuss the money, we can't have a marriage. But we can't have a marriage without a reconciliation.

 

So, for those of you who have offered helpful advice, thank you. For anyone else, please help me with this.

 

I can accept an insult, even if it's disgusting and hurtful, because it IS true, and try to accept it, but we still have to have the non-affair-related conversations. If we can't actually discuss the rest of our marriage because we are always sidetracked by the affair, how can we possibly move forward as a couple? We have to be able to communicate about the read of our lives, too!

 

Okay...rant over.

Edited November 30, 2013 by compulsivedancer

[atreides]

I will reiterate, abuse is an intention to stay with the WS for the purposes of other than R. If the intention is R and vulgarities occur, even daily, it is the price of R to a point where R cannot be realized. It is essentially staring over from the point fire and out.

 

Jane stated:

Honestly, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was how a particular group of people indicated I was supposed to respond, if my H had hurled months of insults and yelled repeatedly and called me names on a regular basis....

 

I probably would have taken it. I would have come to welcome it. I would have agreed that I was all he said and more. I would have just gone ahead and completely and permanently broken. Because that is what - from my understanding - a WW was supposed to do. We were no longer human; we were sin. No, we were not just sinner, we WERE SIN.

 

With all sarcasm aside this is true, except for the "permanent" part. That in itself which is why the "SIN" is not permanent, makes R all the better. To change and find a new beginning is the point, to know where you went, for what you did and became, to where you are going now and into the future. As for how long that takes, it varies on the person, each BS and WS is different. I understand many want the permanent "A" on WS, but it is not the case, i however do believe that yes, the "SIN" as Jane put it is ... but by no means is the future definition of that WS but should be recognized as a part from which one learns to be a better self.

 

CD's H is not about abuse but pain and how it is vented, he will have great days and bad ones. Perhaps as i stated in my previous post CD sees this as an irregular pattern that over analyzed leads to something she fears. My opinion is no, he is still there, he chooses to be with CD and there is no mold to which to judge his behavior. For all i know based her H's posts, the context and message is they have a future, but there are a few storms ahead before the clearing, and weathering it will make them all the stronger.

[atreides]

 

I can accept an insult, even if it's disgusting and hurtful, because it IS true, and try to accept it, but we still have to have the non-affair-related conversations.

 

Okay...rant over.

 

 

Yes, i would agree, but i cant count how many times I have seen or been a part of an argument where the context goes out the window and other skeletons are brought in for spite. Even if your A never happened, there is always something that is drudged up. Being that an A did happen, makes the spite for the context of the argument much harsher.

[ThatMan]

CD, I understand. Just because you blame yourself for your husband's pain does NOT automatically mean that you can fix him. Your husband is responsible for his own recovery. You cannot fix anybody else. The only thing in this world you may claim ownership of is yourself.

 

I strongly implore you to follow up with individual therapy to continue learning the right tools to help you succeed in life. Therapy often has nothing to do with mental illness and everything to do with discovering new ways to achieve your goals. We cannot presume to guess your exact situation even if you describe it for us. We also cannot predict the future conversations that are bound to come up. Enlisting the aid of somebody who can help you work through the situation as it presents itself is an invaluable service.

 

Good luck CD, we all want you to succeed.

[beach]

Was spending money an issue when you were cheating? Did you spend money on your OM? Or to meet with him?

[AlwaysGrowing]

Was spending money an issue when you were cheating? Did you spend money on your OM? Or to meet with him?

 

They are getting prepared to purchase a home. Always a stressful time, regardless if an affair is in the mix or not. It just is.

[compulsivedancer]

Was spending money an issue when you were cheating? Did you spend money on your OM? Or to meet with him?

Nope. Never spent a dime on OM. AlwaysGrowing is right. Just normal financial conversations that couples have.

[Journee]

CD, I still stand by what I said in a PP. I had a lot of things I had to get a hold on within myself before I could had ever been fit enough to R. I know that not all situations are the same but I do know that pain is universal. Not just that of being a BS. Frankly, it is a small part of who I am. I would had never described myself in these terms until I began posting on this site. I don't even like putting the W in front of my H's H lol Because that is not all he is. Not to me anyhow.

 

This could had opened up a whole world of hurt your H had not clue was there. Fears he had suppressed and feelings he had not processed before. Things that may have nothing to do with you but have only been exacerbated. I don't know this for sure and your H seems like a really nice man from his posting here. I am not privy to his upbringing or hurts in life but I am just throwing this out there.

 

I do not think that this will last always. I think this is a phase that most BS go through. The best thing my H did for me was be my friend. I said awful things because I was speaking from pain. I have since apologized because while some things were true others were plain mean spirited. I reached a point where I did not want us to hurt anymore. I was not going to be the one to hurt him anymore. I think your H will come to that point. Be his friend and listen. The most difficult part for me was that my H is my best friend. He is who I go to about everything so it felt natural to go to him when the A pain was rising. Then it hits that he was the source of that particular pain. What a strange feeling. Badmouthing your best friend to your best friend.

 

I mentioned this before but I had to find peace for myself before I could be the wife that could forgive not only my H but myself. So I could let go of so much that I let torment me.

 

How are you all doing tonight CD?

[JustJoe]

CD, there is no way you can discus anything with your husband that cannot possibly be linked to your affair, if he wants to. Accept this and try to work from that point. If I were you, I wouldn't be making any long term commitments until you have dealt with the affair to your husband's satisfaction. Buying a home is a huge responsibility and how can you do this if you cannot even communicate? Who wants the house more, you or your husband? Are you using buying the house as a method of forcing him to commit to you? My suggestion is that if HE wants the house more, then put it in his name alone, or if you want it more put it in yours. Or don't buy it at all.

[waterwoman]

Realist - my children used to believe in father Christmas. At some point they stopped but they still pretend, we all do. We collude in the pretence that there really is a fat old man with a beard that brings stocking stuffed with presents but we all know it's really h and I. They have never had a shocking realisation and have never felt lied to. It's a happy shared pretence.

 

I used to believe in the fidelity of my marriage. Because for many years it was true, and because we took vows. It wasn't a pretence, it was the bedrock of our marriage, and our marriage was the bedrock of our lives. It became a lie. The fact that I didn't know about it for 6 months made the lie worse not better.

[janedoe67]

CD, there is no way you can discus anything with your husband that cannot possibly be linked to your affair, if he wants to.

 

This. This really is the bottom line. And after he makes this choice then he chooses HOW. Unless he has no self control.

[road]

Honestly, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was how a particular group of people indicated I was supposed to respond, if my H had hurled months of insults and yelled repeatedly and called me names on a regular basis....

 

I probably would have taken it. I would have come to welcome it. I would have agreed that I was all he said and more. I would have just gone ahead and completely and permanently broken. Because that is what - from my understanding - a WW was supposed to do. We were no longer human; we were sin. No, we were not just sinner, we WERE SIN.

 

Because I would have laid down and accepted any blow, I was heralded as some paragon of FWW virtue. Looking back, I do not see that extreme of self-hatred as admirable, I see it is twistedly sad. Like how the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman in the Bible WOULD have gone had the Pharisees not dropped their rocks.

 

 

 

You were a criminal for your affair.

 

 

No sane person is a paragon of virtue to let themselves be abused. This is why BS are told to stand up to their WS and demand that the affair end. Being a door mat is letting yourself be abused. WS's do not hold the monopoly on martyrdom.

 

 

You were just as wrong for your choice to let your BH abuse you. Being a BH does not give one the right to abuse their WW. It is one thing to blow up on D day. Then lose control during the week after D day but the BH should realize that they lost it and rein in the out burst and stop themselves and not let the excuse that my WW cheated on mean and rant at their WW.

[joystickd]

A lot of women talk about how cheating affects them and totally forget that when men get cheated on it hurts them too. You hurt him deeply and considering how on some level it's not good for men to show a certain level of emotion it will present itself in other ways.

[Zenstudent]

Initially I liked some of the early posts that suggested you separate the two issues. Very wise and common sense when you're not involved. Then I realized that we don't know the subject of the argument other than "financial issues that couples normally discuss", and I also believe that I saw a statement about buying a house. So I tend to think that to just separate the issues may be over simplyfying the matter.

 

To me; it makes a difference whether we talk about one or the other. I'll tell you how finances and my wife's affair are related to make my point. We're not talking about whether we should make or buy our bread - I have an opinion, but it's negotiable. No big deal. But my wife and I had a discussion recently about refinancing our house. It would save us some money (lower interest) each month, in return for an increased debt.

 

Three years ago I would have said "Let's do it, we need the money now and if we keep the house long enough, it'll be a good deal". The situation and my way of viewing things has changed in the meantime. When we had the discussion I just said "No, I won't commit to any larger long term investments at the moment".

 

This statement hasn't anything to do with the affair, but yet it's related. Had she chosen to push the issue, I might have said "I won't pay for a refinance when I don't know if we're together/have the house next year". And there's another layer because I wouldn't have thought this way had it not been because of her betrayal. Of course she was hurt by this, and I can tell that she has to bite her tongue in order not to say, that I really need to get over this. But it is what it is.

 

My point is, I can try to separate the issues in this discussion, but we don't need to dig very deep to find the affair issue in there, because the affair has made me aware of the fact that I have to protect myself, financially as well as emotionally, because I know now that I can't rely on her doing it.

 

I'll commit to the attempt to make it work between us, but I won't assume that she won't cheat, and I certainly won't tie myself even closer to her, neither financially nor emotionally. I've just learned my lesson. You may call this abusive or not, it really doesn't make any difference to me.

 

Infidelity changes a lot of perceptions, which adds another layer to many discussions. Both parties need to adjust to this new reality.

[Ap22]

call me crazy, but your reconciliation is moving waaay to fast. you kept insinuating that your husband is above all the resentment and anger concerning your affair..... that he pretty much moved on from it. well, it seems like that's not the case.

 

he pretty much bottled up all this animosity and is now just realizing that it does indeed bother him more that he let on.

 

^this.

 

I have bottled it all up too and even though I look perfectly fine to everyone, including my WS, I'm a twisted mess inside. Last night, the smallest thing, which had absolutely nothing to do with her, set me off and the flood gates broke. Nothing is being bottled up this morning for me.

 

Your husband hasn't moved on. Everything is there just under the surface. All he's been able to do, like me, is keep it there out of sight. However, like me, something will set it off. It's like a volcano ready to blow.

[aliveagain]

You have another choice, leave. Anyone that posts here has the same choice. If you can choose to betray the one's you love you can choose to leave them too, specially if you don't want to deal with the consequences. It is never easy taking your marriage or your relationship to the brink of disaster and than deciding to save it and rebuilding it into something permanent, that's why they always refer to it as "The Work." You can't just speak words and make all the bad and evil sh*t you did to your family and friends disappears, why, because we no longer trust you, because your words mean sh*t but we sure do believe your actions. We now know what you are capable of even if we didn't know the real you when we exchanged vows. The only thing we will ever believe from you now are your actions. That will change in time when and if trust ever comes back. This is just another choice, good or bad.

[janedoe67]

You were a criminal for your affair.

 

 

No sane person is a paragon of virtue to let themselves be abused. This is why BS are told to stand up to their WS and demand that the affair end. Being a door mat is letting yourself be abused. WS's do not hold the monopoly on martyrdom.

 

 

You were just as wrong for your choice to let your BH abuse you. Being a BH does not give one the right to abuse their WW. It is one thing to blow up on D day. Then lose control during the week after D day but the BH should realize that they lost it and rein in the out burst and stop themselves and not let the excuse that my WW cheated on mean and rant at their WW.

 

If you haven't figured out by now that I know my A was terribly wrong....perhaps some remediation is in order.

 

I understand exactly why my husband was so angry. I understand why he lost it with me a couple of times. I also understand that he ONLY did it a couple of times because HE choose to act with character whether I acted with character or not.

 

I was just as wrong to let him abuse me....thanks for that chuckle. I guess it was more palatable that coming out and saying that it is wrong to scream obscenities at someone. It is sad to me that people are so afraid that if you give an inch of compassion to a FWW she will magically forget how horrible she is.

[LBlanc]

i'll just leave this here...oh some posters should definitely think about nos. 6 to 1 (at 1:42):)

 

[compulsivedancer]

i'll just leave this here...oh some posters should definitely think about nos. 6 to 1 (at 1:42):)

 

 

Love Kid President! I like the bonus one: Let's Dance!