Affair coming up in arguments

[janedoe67]

An A never goes away. However, one can choose whether to live there or not.

 

I will never forget the pain I caused. I will also never forget the pain I endured from years of neglect. I will never forget being raped or molested when young. I will never forget losing a friend to a violent act.

 

However, I can choose to heal as much as humanly possible and not LIVE in that pain.

 

Recovery is a process, and it is not linear. There will be good periods, and there will be periods where the pain still feels so raw to a BS that they just....don;t know what to do with it.

 

But for a couple who is working hard, a FWS who is committed, and a BS who wants a new marriage and not to mete out penance....there will come a time when it fades and looking forward becomes the norm. It varies for everyone.

 

I don't think "get over it" applies to an A...maybe "get through it and move forward," but not "get over it."

[Realist3]

I don't know how many times I have read something to the effect of, "The greatest threat to true reconciliation is not the affair itself, but the mistakes couples make after d-day." R is not a one way street as some would like to presume. It requires empathy from both sides for it to work.

[Grumpybutfun]

It is hard to imagine a couple getting the marriage right after D-day since some of what occurred in their communication skills and relating in general is probably what led to the affair to begin with. This is a slippery slope, and you may need some help getting to the point where you can communicate about issues outside of the affair by a third party. Otherwise new issues will not be resolved due to him being stuck in the past.

Good luck,

Grumps

[AlwaysGrowing]

No one gets over any type of trauma...they learn to accept that it happened, learn to cope with the pain, process the events/emotions and weave it into their story of who they are. If that doesn't happen...then yes...in the quiet..or during another storm...when you are caught unawares..it resurfaces.

 

In an affair, during R, unlike other forms of trauma..the one that caused it (most who agree an affair is extreme emotional abuse) is a part of the healing. Not a dynamic we usually see in other forms of abuse. It is harder to navigate..for both parties.

 

For both, it is in how they view R. For a BS, to make themselves vulnerable is a herculean feat for most. That is why, for most successful R it is the WS that has to make concessions/do the work first...to show good faith. When that happens, then the BS opens up and shares (shows the underbelly so to speak) and lets the WS in. If a WS can view this as an opportunity to show through ACTIONS that the change is real, R usually progresses much quicker. It alleviates the very real fear of the WS doing it again. At the same time, it reinforces in the WS that they are a "good" person who has learned new coping skills. It then becomes part of who the couple are. Slowly the dynamic changes. Not overnight, not in a month, or a year. It is constantly being tested and implemented. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. But always acknowledging when it was not. With discussion on how it went off track, what preceded it, is it a calender thing? or what not.

[yellowmaverick]

You don't process the hurt and pain/anger by throwing in the WS's face for a year. No professional advice would ever suggest that as a way towards recovery.

 

And no professional would advocate disrespecting your spouse by screwing around on her/him. The BS has been dealt a sh*t sandwich and he is doing the best that he can. You are disregarding the fact that his OWN recovery comes BEFORE the marriage recovery. His reactions are completely normal and understandable at this point in the process. Any respectable IC would tell you that.

 

Realist3 - You have made your choices and that's fine, but you seem to lack empathy as to the fallout that the spouse and children suffer during and after the affair. Further, your view of the reality of the fallout is distorted - from the point of view of the spouse AND the children.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I don't know how many times I have read something to the effect of, "The greatest threat to true reconciliation is not the affair itself, but the mistakes couples make after d-day." R is not a one way street as some would like to presume. It requires empathy from both sides for it to work.

 

 

In the beginning, it is very much a one-way street. The one who caused the trauma/damage is the one that must put the effort in first.

 

Most BS would be or at least should be highly offended at a WS expecting empathy from the BS. Should it come in time...sure. But to look at the person who has multiply knives in their back and complain about how you cut your hands on those knives that YOU placed there is just.....idk.

 

A WS should not look to their BS to heal them. That is what IC is for.

[whatatangledweb]

I don't know how many times I have read something to the effect of, "The greatest threat to true reconciliation is not the affair itself, but the mistakes couples make after d-day." R is not a one way street as some would like to presume. It requires empathy from both sides for it to work.

 

 

I do agree with you that it takes both to make it work.

 

Here is how it works with a BS in a discussion or argument after d-day. Let's say you are discussing money. He wants to save more instead of spending it to do things. Your mind triggers and you think of how much money he had no problem spending on his OW. That ticks you off. Then it opens all the memories back up of the affair. Now you are in pain and you lash out and say " You want to save now??? You had no problem spending this amount on your OW ! So you can throw it away on her but not us???!!" It then turns into a discussion/argument of his affair.

 

It happens quite a bit the first year but lessens as we deal with our pain. I would try not to trigger and lash out as I could see it really hurt my husband when I did this. It happens very rarely now because I am healed even that I can think the thoughts but not say them. I have never used it as an ace card. Nor would I. I didn't do it to win the discussion, I triggered.

 

I do agree that I have seen people use it as ace card, five , ten years down the road. They do it then to win and hurt their spouse. The fist few years I have never seen it used that way.

[compulsivedancer]

I haven't had a chance to respond yet. I am reading and I appreciate the responses. For clarity, this seems to be a new stage for us, this has not gone on all year. (H HAS expressed his anger, just not in that way. I don't think he's bottling it up; I do think he's healing.)

 

I handled it really badly yesterday when he said what he said (I can't repeat it...it was filthy), and I want to make sure I handle it better if it happens again.

 

Everyone says that the second year is in many ways worse than the first year, because the WS thinks they've "moved on," but the BS is still working through things. I guess I want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep moving forward and not make it harder on H.

[compulsivedancer]

For the couple of people who thought we were doing better than we are, or who think maybe I've made it sound like everything's all better:

 

R seems to be 2 steps forward, one step back. We have some great days, then we have several where I can see his mind churning. Sometimes we'll feel so connected, like we never have before, and then we'll have a few days where it feels like we're not connected at all and I wonder if it's going to work.

 

Right now we're buying his grandparent's house. It's scary, and it's totally the wrong time, but we want the house, and now is the only time we can buy it. At times this adds a lot of stress, because we're connecting/committing ourselves financially in a way we've never been connected before.

 

I think our R is right on schedule. It may be a tinge on the fast side, but not enough to worry that we're missing something important.

[Sub]

Everyone says that the second year is in many ways worse than the first year, because the WS thinks they've "moved on," but the BS is still working through things. I guess I want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep moving forward and not make it harder on H.

 

I would agree with this, from a BS' standpoint as well. There's a fear of it being "too good to be true". As things appear to get better and you get closer, you question how it's possible to get to this point in the R after this traumatic thing happening, and put your guard up, get defensive. There are times he may start to wonder if it's real, because he doesn't want to feel like a bigger fool if it isn't. It's really hard to just open yourself up again and give the love you want to give.

[drifter777]

I don't know how many times I have read something to the effect of, "The greatest threat to true reconciliation is not the affair itself, but the mistakes couples make after d-day." R is not a one way street as some would like to presume. It requires empathy from both sides for it to work.

Yes, this is true. The BS must be willing to at least accept that their WS is remorseful and doing everything possible to repair the damage their cheating has done. The BS needs to believe that the WS is not the same person that cheated on them and is worthy of another chance. The WS has to do most of the heavy lifting but the BS can't just sit around waiting to suddenly feel better. Honestly participating and working in IC, MC, open communication - these things the BS must be ready and willing to do. Of course, it may not work out and one of them might decide to end the marriage but at least the decision is not made out of a knee-jerk reaction on d-day.

 

CD: as I said before, your husband is hurting. Nothing could prove it more than his reaction during your arguments. You've made it clear in many posts that your reconciliation is going well - at least from your perspective. As the WW you want desperately to put all of this behind you because of the shame and guilt you feel, but it's not your call alone. Reconciliation takes as long as it takes and it's never fast enough for the WS.

 

Throwing the A at you during these heated arguments is a signal you need to pay attention to. He's so angry and hurt by your affair that it just bubbles out when he allows himself to feel real emotions. He's not doing well with his own emotions and is in true denial in that he refuses to accept just how badly his psyche and your relationship has been damaged. I hope you can persuade him to talk to you more about his feelings so he can get used to letting them out when he feels them. A counselor should be able to help him break through the denial and face his true feelings. The two of you have much more work to do and pretending things are ok isn't going to help.

Edited November 27, 2013 by drifter777

[ChooseTruth]

I gotta say, there are definitely some things the BS has a responsibility to, and one of them is not using the A as a trump card all the time.

 

In this particular case I think CM would be better off focusing on the positive as much as possible.

[Realist3]

In the beginning, it is very much a one-way street. The one who caused the trauma/damage is the one that must put the effort in first.

 

Most BS would be or at least should be highly offended at a WS expecting empathy from the BS. Should it come in time...sure. But to look at the person who has multiply knives in their back and complain about how you cut your hands on those knives that YOU placed there is just.....idk.

 

A WS should not look to their BS to heal them. That is what IC is for.

 

What the empathy from both sides means is that understanding the both parties are dealing with extreme emotions. The BS may rightfully feel their emotions are more import at the time, but they must also consider the WS is dealing their own emotions, guilt, shame, regret, loss, sorrow, confusion, etc.. If the BS does not take those into account it makes R much more difficult.

[beach]

Exactly what are oU doing to repair that damage you caused? How are you handing your H peace of mind?

 

Of course he is hurt, scared and angry! What are you doing to help him grit past all those feelings?

[Untouchable_Fire]

I haven't had a chance to respond yet. I am reading and I appreciate the responses. For clarity, this seems to be a new stage for us, this has not gone on all year. (H HAS expressed his anger, just not in that way. I don't think he's bottling it up; I do think he's healing.)

I handled it really badly yesterday when he said what he said (I can't repeat it...it was filthy), and I want to make sure I handle it better if it happens again.

Everyone says that the second year is in many ways worse than the first year, because the WS thinks they've "moved on," but the BS is still working through things. I guess I want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep moving forward and not make it harder on H.

 

Insults are meant to hurt... And this one sounds particularly bad. If he doesn't have a long history of this.... He is needing you to show that you feel and understand his pain.

 

When this happened to me I felt disrespected on the deepest level possible. It caused me to lose respect for her in return and became the basis for me doing and saying things way out of character. She never addressed this issue so I walked. I hated doing and saying mean things... I'm happy without her.

 

I tell you this so that you can examine your personal situation to see if there are similarities and tackle the issue before it rends your relationship asunder.

[Fredflintstone]

Me and my wife have/had arguments like this. I would say things about her affair, throw it in her face, tell her she should go back to om. When she took what I dished out and refused to go to him it made me feel better about how sincere she was. My emotions, however, were going crazy so I moved out. I was instantly calmed by this, she was devastated but we get on alot better, I have a place to go when I get angry but it's less now because I have a place I know I can go if I want. We see each other everyday and have great sex too.

When these arguments errupt, be nice, you have alot to prove. If he thinks abit like me then you facing it head on with compassion with reinforce his feelings of your sincerity, hopefully. That is, ofcourse, if you can cope with his temper.

[drifter777]

I gotta say, there are definitely some things the BS has a responsibility to, and one of them is not using the A as a trump card all the time.

 

In this particular case I think CM would be better off focusing on the positive as much as possible.

CT - I find it hard to believe you take this position. Are you really suggesting that a BS is better off "focusing on the positive" while denying their true feelings? With your experience this just doesn't sound like you.

 

Trying to reconcile is a long, hard road and honesty by both parties is essential to true recovery. Like I said, pretending things are better than they are will not work in the end.

[AlwaysGrowing]

What the empathy from both sides means is that understanding the both parties are dealing with extreme emotions. The BS may rightfully feel their emotions are more import at the time, but they must also consider the WS is dealing their own emotions, guilt, shame, regret, loss, sorrow, confusion, etc.. If the BS does not take those into account it makes R much more difficult.

 

 

There is a time for that. It is AFTER the WS has shown remorse, has been pro-active in repairing the damage to the relationship and themselves. The WS has to show that they are able to learn new coping skills and not rely on the BS to validate, repair, fix, hold them up, hold their hand, and can hold themselves accountable..on their own.

 

Personally, and I know many disagree. I strongly believe that IC is so vital in R, for each side. Not MC. How can one work towards R a marriage when both parties in are in such extreme emotional turmoil? Both need to sit awhile and see what it all means. What it means to them personally. How has it changed them. What do they need right now What will they need in the future. Once that has started, then the two can come together with a clearer understanding of their position and why. The BS is not as wounded, the WS has more insight.

 

In no other forms of abuse is the victim required to be empathetic towards their abuser. Whether or not the WS is in pain should never deter a BS for self advocating. A WS has to carry that burden alone. It is theirs to carry.

 

In what circumstance would you ever expect a person who has been violated to comfort the person who violated them? To tell them that you understand..you were just angry...and had poor coping skills..I understand that you are upset that you busted my jaw..oh my...look at your hand..it really got busted up on my teeth..btw..can you pass me that straw so I can sip on some soup.

 

 

After the WS has been able to work through their own issues and can speak without needing validation for their poor choices from the BS that is when R really takes hold. To ever expect a BS to be understanding of the WS poor choices is unrealistic. That is not to say a BS will never be able to feel safe and secure enough in the WS, and love the person that the WS is becoming, that a BS can have empathy for the WS when the WS looks back on their poor choices and are just as horrified.

[Realist3]

In no other forms of abuse is the victim required to be empathetic towards their abuser.

 

We are going to part ways here. We have had several multi page threads on this topic, and of course I fall on the side of it is not abuse. Abuse is something that is done purposefully to hurt another person.

 

As it pertains to this topic though one could argue that the continual beating the WS over the head with the affair is a form of abuse, specifically mental.

[AlwaysGrowing]

We are going to part ways here. We have had several multi page threads on this topic, and of course I fall on the side of it is not abuse. Abuse is something that is done purposefully to hurt another person.

 

As it pertains to this topic though one could argue that the continual beating the WS over the head with the affair is a form of abuse, specifically mental.

 

 

Gotcha ya.

 

Having an affair=not abusive

Bringing up the affair=abusive

 

Anywho...CD...just wanted you to know..that it is a good sign for your relationship that you seek out help when you need it. Instead of hitting your head against the same brick wall, repeating what doesn't work. The more new skills you learn, the more skills you will have when you need them.

 

Good luck on the home purchase.

[yellowmaverick]

I haven't had a chance to respond yet. I am reading and I appreciate the responses. For clarity, this seems to be a new stage for us, this has not gone on all year. (H HAS expressed his anger, just not in that way. I don't think he's bottling it up; I do think he's healing.)

 

I handled it really badly yesterday when he said what he said (I can't repeat it...it was filthy), and I want to make sure I handle it better if it happens again.

 

Everyone says that the second year is in many ways worse than the first year, because the WS thinks they've "moved on," but the BS is still working through things. I guess I want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep moving forward and not make it harder on H.

 

CD - It sounds to me like you are trying to do everything right. That is all that you can do for now. Consistent actions over a longer period of time is what will help your H to heal.

 

It is very difficult not to say some horrible things when the mind movies keep you awake at night. Your H saying these things may be his way of making sure that you suffer as long as he suffers...IDK. I hope that he works through this to see all of your efforts to help him.

[Realist3]

Gotcha ya.

 

Having an affair=not abusive

Bringing up the affair=abusive

 

Anywho...CD...just wanted you to know..that it is a good sign for your relationship that you seek out help when you need it. Instead of hitting your head against the same brick wall, repeating what doesn't work. The more new skills you learn, the more skills you will have when you need them.

 

Good luck on the home purchase.

 

Yes, by their very nature of secrecy, affairs do not meet the definition of abuse. The secrecy is to not harm the BS. Breaking a commitment does not equate to abuse. Of course you are making it a little too simple. I never said bringing up the affair is abusive. I said beating them over the head with the affair is.

 

In this particular case, CD's husband is beating her over the head with it in unrelated matters. That is mentally abusive.

 

While I posited that he is using it to win arguments, and others have said he is just venting his anger, which both have merit; he knows he is hurting her by throwing in her face while arguing something else.

[ChooseTruth]

CT - I find it hard to believe you take this position. Are you really suggesting that a BS is better off "focusing on the positive" while denying their true feelings? With your experience this just doesn't sound like you.

 

Trying to reconcile is a long, hard road and honesty by both parties is essential to true recovery. Like I said, pretending things are better than they are will not work in the end.

I'm not saying deny his feelings, he just doesn't need to blast them at her at every opportunity.

I think CD is much different than my ex was. I tried very much to not focus on the negative with my ex and tried not to use the A to win arguments that had nothing with the A. Eventually it all blew apart for other reasons and I didn't really give a flip anymore...and *left* (after being really rude...but I regret that part)

 

If CD was still being sneaky, lying, blameshifting, cold, continuing contact with OM, etc and they were addressing those same issues, I would have a totally different stance.

 

The BS doesn't get a carte blanche to be as abusive as they want at all times. People are responsible for their own behavior at all times.

[Fluttershy]

I'm not saying deny his feelings, he just doesn't need to blast them at her at every opportunity.

I think CD is much different than my ex was. I tried very much to not focus on the negative with my ex and tried not to use the A to win arguments that had nothing with the A. Eventually it all blew apart for other reasons and I didn't really give a flip anymore...and *left* (after being really rude...but I regret that part)

 

If CD was still being sneaky, lying, blameshifting, cold, continuing contact with OM, etc and they were addressing those same issues, I would have a totally different stance.

 

The BS doesn't get a carte blanche to be as abusive as they want at all times. People are responsible for their own behavior at all times.

 

I agree with this a 100%. Too many people get handy at blaming others for their own choices. Parents, spouses, children, and that particularly rude man on the bus. No one gets a free pass from bad behaviour. How you react or act is a reflection on who you are as a person. This includes the completely devastating news of infidelity. I am positive no one on here condones a betrayed husband finding out and beating his wife. The person who does that has some serious anger issues they need to take responsibility on.

Now to the delicate balance. The wayward spouse must be patient with non violent outbursts but that doesn't mean they need to take it or give in. As was suggested should the affair come up in an unrelated argument the wayward spouse should ask if the current discussion be shelved and the affair be discussed. But if the betrayed spouse is just verbally abusing the wayward not actually discussing it. The wayward spouse instead of engaging in a screaming match needs to let their spouse know they need to cool down and walk away.

Betrayed spouses can most certainly play the betrayed card. After all, their spouse gave it to them. But they can also most certainly own that they are doing so and choose not to use it. The latter will bring healing and build a better marriage faster. And triggering about an affair during an argument and demanding you get to buy a fancy car while money is tight because you were betrayed are two different things. It is all about each situation and context.

To the OP, sounds like your spouse is man enough to own his mistakes. That is a good things. Don't lay down and play dead just because you had an affair but instead confront separate issues as separate issues. Don't muddy the waters. Let your spouse know when you are wrong in a disagreement but don't give in if you truly feel he is the one in error. Don't give up because of marital issues. We all have them and they always should be worked through.

One final thing, empathy and compassion towards the remorseful wayward spouse is often bandied as "cheap forgiveness". It is not. The betrayed spouse most certainly doesn't need to be the strong one but in a truly healthy reconciliation, the betrayed spouse can see and recognize the self inflicted hurt upon their wayward spouse and treat them with kindness in those moments. There is a time for tough love but there is also a time for softness. You can have to much of one or the other.

[JustJoe]

No it absolutely not a "just get over it" at all. I never said anything of the kind. I suggest you read my post again. I said that if this continues long term then counselling may be need ed. Or do you think the BS should hold on to such pain and anger forever?

The BS should "hold on to the pain"? You think that this is some kind of a pleasant thing?