Affair coming up in arguments

[Artie Lang]

all i have to say is that, if we're gonna throw out the word abuse so blatantly, then i will say that cheating on someone is tantamount to abuse also- emotional and psychological abuse. to go even further, it is fraud..... yes people, it is fraud because a cheater is not representing what they appear to be- that is misrepresentation of the facts. if marriage is a social contract then this should apply.

[janedoe67]

I drone abuse as inflicting pain on another person. An A fits. So does screaming sl*t wh*** filthy worthless pile of sh*t in someone's face.

[aliveagain]

I drone abuse as inflicting pain on another person. An A fits. So does screaming sl*t wh*** filthy worthless pile of sh*t in someone's face.

 

No argument there at all Jane. The first thought that came to me(as a betrayed spouse) is the depth of his pain, how hurt he still is, how much he must love you. Is he getting help? Some men have a hard time explaining how they are feeling and lash out instead. Have you hurt him before?

[Realist3]

11. But none of that allows the BS to be abusive in return. It is NOT abusive to keep bringing up the A, that is part of dealing with it. Dealing with it can also involve bringing it out into the open so that the WS has to face the consequences of their choices. However, that does not mean that it can be used by the BS to manipulate the WS to get whatever they want in any decision. If it comes up as a 'trump card' in an unrelated argument, the WS needs to address the A with the BS, but it does not mean that the WS has to let the BS call the shots on the unrelated thing.

 

Very well stated. And I agree with your other comments about things that the WS can do after discovery that can be abusive.

 

Some people obviously have a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that the BS can be abusive as well in how they deal with their anger issues.

 

I think it would behoove several posters to get a true understanding of what the word abuse really means, instead of hiding behind a word that connotates victimhood. Yes, you are a victim, but not of abuse.

[HopingAgain]

To get a clearer across the board view of abuse, here is the definition:

 

a·buse

 

verb /əˈbyo͞oz/

 

1.

 

use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. "the judge abused his power by imposing the fines" synonyms: misuse, misapply, misemploy;

 

 

 

2.

 

treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, esp. regularly or repeatedly. "riders who abuse their horses should be prosecuted"

 

Cheating on your spouse is about as cruel as it gets when it comes to cruel treatment of another, so make no mistake, by definition it IS abuse.

 

Having said that, it is possible for a BS to be abusive towards a WS as well.

[janedoe67]

No argument there at all Jane. The first thought that came to me(as a betrayed spouse) is the depth of his pain, how hurt he still is, how much he must love you. Is he getting help? Some men have a hard time explaining how they are feeling and lash out instead. Have you hurt him before?

 

He did this only once, and I outlined how I handled it a page r two back. It hurt but I knew it came from his pain. I was blessed in that he apologized later and was not of the mindset that my A was a blank check that allowed him to do or say whatever he felt like for as he felt like it. He didn't believe that his character was dependent upon mine.

[Realist3]

To get a clearer across the board view of abuse, here is the definition:

 

a·buse

 

verb /əˈbyo͞oz/

 

1.

 

use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. "the judge abused his power by imposing the fines" synonyms: misuse, misapply, misemploy;

 

 

 

2.

 

treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, esp. regularly or repeatedly. "riders who abuse their horses should be prosecuted"

 

Cheating on your spouse is about as cruel as it gets when it comes to cruel treatment of another, so make no mistake, by definition it IS abuse.

 

Having said that, it is possible for a BS to be abusive towards a WS as well.

 

 

Yes, and by every definition affairs do not meet the criteria for abuse. Abuse means there has to be intent to harm and the person being harmed must be aware of it. Lying is not abuse. Breaking a commitment is not abuse.

[Furious]

Yes, and by every definition affairs do not meet the criteria for abuse. Abuse means there has to be intent to harm and the person being harmed must be aware of it. Lying is not abuse. Breaking a commitment is not abuse.

 

Lying is abuse. Breaking a commitment is abuse. Denying someone their own free choices and their reality is abuse. This kind of abuse leaves no visible scars are broken bones. This type of abuse can destroy your soul and leaves tremendous emotional scars.

[janedoe67]

I am not sure defining terms is really the point. My A - no matter how abuse is defined - hurt H horribly, no matter my "intent," the pain I caused him was real.

 

Again, some of my advice on this is theoretical because my H chose to take responsibility for his own actions even in the midst of dealing with mine, so I was fortunate.

[Realist3]

Lying is abuse. Breaking a commitment is abuse. Denying someone their own free choices and their reality is abuse. This kind of abuse leaves no visible scars are broken bones. This type of abuse can destroy your soul and leaves tremendous emotional scars.

 

Nope sorry, none of those things are abuse. I'm not sure why some folks seek out the incorrect definition.

 

That word must carry something special for some people to cling to it so dearly.

 

Your soul may have have been crushed, but it wasn't because of abuse it was because you were lied to and later found out. You simply believed in something that wasn't true. By your misunderstand, me telling kids there is a Santa Claus is abusing them.

[Realist3]

I am not sure defining terms is really the point. My A - no matter how abuse is defined - hurt H horribly, no matter my "intent," the pain I caused him was real.

 

Again, some of my advice on this is theoretical because my H chose to take responsibility for his own actions even in the midst of dealing with mine, so I was fortunate.

 

I don't think anyone denies that the pain is very real. But just because someone feels great pain does not mean it is caused by abuse.

[eleanorrigby]

I don't think anyone denies that the pain is very real. But just because someone feels great pain does not mean it is caused by abuse.

 

Why does whether the act can be defined as abuse make such a difference to you?

[Realist3]

Why does whether the act can be defined as abuse make such a difference to you?

 

Because words mean something, that is why.

[Furious]

Nope sorry, none of those things are abuse. I'm not sure why some folks seek out the incorrect definition.

 

That word must carry something special for some people to cling to it so dearly.

 

Your soul may have have been crushed, but it wasn't because of abuse it was because you were lied to and later found out. You simply believed in something that wasn't true. By your misunderstand, me telling kids there is a Santa Claus is abusing them.

 

Ironically, your argument is rather lame and I'm astounded by your interpretation and that you even included Santa Claus in your argument.

 

Affairs are a form of abuse but that does not condone a former WS to be treated abusively. A remorseful WS will acknowledge that the cheating was an abuse of their spouses trust and commitment. If not, I doubt true reconciliation will occur.

[whatatangledweb]

I do agree with Realist. I don't see my husband's affair as him abusing me. I was abused mentally and physically as a child. My husband treated me no differently when he was cheating. He was loving and caring as he always was. When I found out he admitted it. Blamed no one but himself so I suffered betrayal from him but no abuse.

 

Now I have seen where the WS does emotional abuse the spouse during their affair. Treating them badly , making them feel as if they did something, or that they are crazy. Yelling and screaming that they are doing nothing yet they are cheating. Doing all that is emotional abuse.

[beach]

I don't think anyone denies that the pain is very real. But just because someone feels great pain does not mean it is caused by abuse.

 

 

Just because you decide not to call it abuse doesn't make it so.

 

The person who EXPERIENCES the abuse is the one who decides how it makes them feel (abused or not).

 

I don't think you are in the position to decide for others what it may or may not be - for you - being the one who believes your cheating is A-OK for everyone - would not be a good indicator of HOW IT MAY FEEL to the ones betrayed.

 

As for arguments - yes, a simple conflict like what kind of creamer is preferred in coffee can trigger an argument.

 

My exH bought me boots one Christmas - one size too big - and my ONLY thought was "I wonder WHO wears a size 9!!!?"

 

Did we argue? No, but I did find out 8 months later who wore that size 9! Little things do mean big things! I knew something was "off" - he had always bought me the correct size EVERYTHING over our 23 years together!

 

If the betrayed gets mad about anything - it's THEIR right to FEEL ANY WAY they feel! If the one who cheated doesn't like it- they can hoosegow reassure and repair that dMage they caused - or they can choose to leave!

[ThatMan]

Dear Realist3,

I don't believe anyone wants your words. I've shared what I have because I can clearly see CD and her spouse are hurting right now. It is no trivial or small thing. When we are hurt, it can be a difficult road to navigate between standing up for ourselves, and advocating for ourselves, opposed to invalidating how a person feels. CD is walking that road right this very minute. I believe some dialog on invalidation is crucial and will help anyone in this position to discover healthy ways to respond to hurt whenever dialog on the affair begins.

 

As stated: an affair can be tantamount to abuse. Just as the betrayed spouse may also potentially commit actions that are abusive. We didn't come here today to debate a morbid topic. You are encouraging invalidation which is unhealthy, abusive, and such antics end relationships when frequently committed. Why would you promote that to somebody who is clearly trying to save a relationship? Go away.

[ThatMan]

When a spouse brings up a past affair we mustn't invalidate them by telling them to get over it. Nor should we be lead to believe it's a simple cop-out to win a debate. We will clearly feel hurt for the mere mention of an affair, and we may respond to our own feelings by stating exactly that, rather than dismiss our spouse by invalidating them. It's okay to say, "I feel deeply hurt whenever the affair is brought up."

 

All healthy dialog begins there.

"I Feel _____."

 

NOT:

"You're just a victim."

"Get over yourself."

Edited November 29, 2013 by ThatMan

[janedoe67]

[if the betrayed gets mad about anything - it's THEIR right to FEEL ANY WAY they feel! /QUOTE]

 

I agree with this completely. The next question:

 

Do they have the right - each time they feel anger - to yell, scream, hurl obscenities, etc?

[ThatMan]

And the question above is the crux of the problem. This is a difficult road to navigate. There is an arsenal of tools to learn that will help those in this position. These tools may include learning to be considerate of yourself through establishing boundaries, "You will not scream and hurl obscenities. If you continue I will walk away. I welcome the opportunity for us to continue the conversation when you are ready to speak in a more civil tone."

 

Note: In this example nobody is being dismissed by being told that they shouldn't feel a certain way. The individual in question is creating a healthy boundary.

 

Open communication is key and this includes painful topics as well. The conversation remains open. The person in question looks after him/herself as well.

Edited November 29, 2013 by ThatMan
lousy phone...

[janedoe67]

Honestly, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was how a particular group of people indicated I was supposed to respond, if my H had hurled months of insults and yelled repeatedly and called me names on a regular basis....

 

I probably would have taken it. I would have come to welcome it. I would have agreed that I was all he said and more. I would have just gone ahead and completely and permanently broken. Because that is what - from my understanding - a WW was supposed to do. We were no longer human; we were sin. No, we were not just sinner, we WERE SIN.

 

Because I would have laid down and accepted any blow, I was heralded as some paragon of FWW virtue. Looking back, I do not see that extreme of self-hatred as admirable, I see it is twistedly sad. Like how the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman in the Bible WOULD have gone had the Pharisees not dropped their rocks.

[Realist3]

I have never once in this thread or anywhere said what a BS should feel. I fully understand the whole slew of emotions that a BS can experience. I am not diminishing those at all. All I have said is that when using the term abuse to define an affair it is incorrect. Abuse is centered around intent. There are no two ways about it.

 

CD will have to decide for herself whether she continues to put up with what sounds like abusive behavior from her BS. I find it rather troubling that some would support her just sitting back and taking it because she somehow 'deserves it' or should rug sweep/understand the abuse she is receiving.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Both parties during R have much to work through.

 

For a BS, trying to process the affair....to get to a place...that the affair does not define them, nor does it speak to their worth.

 

Oddly enough...so does a WS.

 

It isn't easy. It ain't all gonna be pretty. There are two very broken individuals that are trying to scramble to maintain their own sanity/clarity/life. But have to interact....one with the person that hurt them...the other with a person who thinks so poorly of them.

 

It is about disarming ourselves. In a situation that our brains tell us to arm ourselves to the teeth. That is what both parties are fighting internally. Our natural defense mechanisms.

 

I think Jane brought up a very good point. That for some WS, they would almost welcome the negative slurs. They would take that as doing penance. Its not. Amends come from those acts that Jane described she did earlier in the thread, with kindness, she deescalated the situation. She acknowledged it came from a place of pain. And also made it clear, that it was not acceptable. With that one act...she accomplished so much. She was in control, put a new pattern in place, made herself available in times of distress. Without engaging in the same behaviour that her husband was using, she showed him how to treat her....in a loving , non-attacking way.

 

Incidents of verbal lashing out is common. To just sit and say....take it..or the other extreme...call the cops the BS is abusing me....are just that ...two extreme reactions. Neither responds effectively to the issue.

 

Tantamount...is to address it immediately..by acknowledging that it has nothing to do with the money issue. Secondly, give the person who is not in control...control. Offer options. Let them decide. It is offering an "out" to the other person that is non-confrontational.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I have never once in this thread or anywhere said what a BS should feel. I fully understand the whole slew of emotions that a BS can experience. I am not diminishing those at all. All I have said is that when using the term abuse to define an affair it is incorrect. Abuse is centered around intent. There are no two ways about it.

 

CD will have to decide for herself whether she continues to put up with what sounds like abusive behavior from her BS. I find it rather troubling that some would support her just sitting back and taking it because she somehow 'deserves it' or should rug sweep/understand the abuse she is receiving.

 

I read often from some...the belief that "what the BS doesn't know won't hurt them". And then hide behind that in regard to intent during an affair.

 

I would argue..that very thought acknowledges that what they are doing is hurtful, hence the secrecy. If someone knows, that what they are doing would hurt another, then does it anyway...regardless if the other person finds out, the intent was to get away with it....knowing full well...that if they don't get away with it....someone will be hurt. They are playing a shell game. With full knowledge that catastrophe is under one of the shells.

[compulsivedancer]

Honestly, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was how a particular group of people indicated I was supposed to respond, if my H had hurled months of insults and yelled repeatedly and called me names on a regular basis....

 

I probably would have taken it. I would have come to welcome it. I would have agreed that I was all he said and more. I would have just gone ahead and completely and permanently broken. Because that is what - from my understanding - a WW was supposed to do. We were no longer human; we were sin. No, we were not just sinner, we WERE SIN.

 

Because I would have laid down and accepted any blow, I was heralded as some paragon of FWW virtue. Looking back, I do not see that extreme of self-hatred as admirable, I see it is twistedly sad. Like how the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman in the Bible WOULD have gone had the Pharisees not dropped their rocks.

 

This sounds a lot like how Coolit about herself.