can't live with him, can't live without him.

[k8-uk]

Hi,

I realise this is an old topic here but I just wanted to share my angle on it.

Before me and my partner got together I expressed how I hated porn with him, and he said he didn't have any and never would have.

We spent three happy years together, then I found it all. (I wasn't looking, just going through media player history to find something)

I kicked him out of our home for a while. He had broken a promise that I had made quite clear would be a 'deal breaker' between us.

Time went by and for some reason I believed him when he said it wouldn't happen again. I told him if it did he couldn't expect anything from me, including fidelity.

Six months later again.

 

I don't know why I didn't break up with him then. I guess I wasn't strong enough. I was unfaithful, didn't tell him, thought the whole thing was unrescuable.

 

Then time went by and he didn't use it for ages. Said he didn't really like himself for using it, wanted our relationship much more. I started to feel real guilty for what I'd done, but I had my faith back in the relationship and didn't want to hurt him by telling him.

 

Things were going well again and I got pregnant. We were so happy. Then we lost the baby. I was quite far gone and had to deliver him.

It was the worst time of my life, but the good thing I thought had come out of it was that me and my partner were so close. (so I thought) I couldn't have got through it without him and we both had so much grief to deal with.

 

Less than a fortnight had passed, and I was still reeling from my loss when I found that he'd been looking at it again. - just before my last scan (when we found there was a problem)

And again on Christmas day (less than a fortnight after the baby died)

 

Part of me wants to finish it. But I need him so much right now and I still love him.

 

I just wanted to point out something that was missed the last time this kind of debate was had here.

Looking at porn is one thing. Acceptable, heathy, necessary, I DON'T KNOW.

 

All I know is, that if you promise someone something, you should keep that promise.

Whatever it is.

If you can't keep that promise you should be honest to your partner about it.

I also know, that my partner doing something that he KNEW would hurt me real bad at a time in my life when I didn't think I could even feel any more pain, was the most hurtful thing that has ever happened to me.

 

The emphasis shouldn't be on whether or not porn is ok.

The important thing is being honest about what you expect from each other and what you're prepared to sacrifice.

 

I still don't know what to do. He knows I've been unfaithful now, so the decision may not be in my hands. Finding porn was as distressing to me as his being unfaithful would have been. You can say that's nutty, wrong, unreasonable or unrealistic.

The bottom line is, he knew how it made me feel, and surely how we make each other feel is more important than socially accepted norms????

 

By the way, I certainly was not looking for it the last time. I was not in a fit state to even consider it.

And for the record we had an active sex life, before and during the pregnancy.

[Grinning Maniac]

I'm happy to give you some constructive advice, but first let me say...

 

You're psychotic.

 

Your SO gets off while looking at digital pictures...so you decide to get railed by a penis that was very much NOT digital and also very much attached to another person. It’s interesting how that is somehow "balanced" in your world. I bet it was really hard on your SO when he had to call up Jenna Jameson, and break it to her that their steamy passionate affair was OVER. ::

 

Reading this thread, I can now rest easy knowing that I was always correct in my firm belief that women truly are, in their heart of hearts....totally insane.

 

But, I digress...

 

It is very true that your SO broke his promise to you about looking at pornography, and for doing that he was wrong. Dead wrong. You are absolutely right about that much. You should never break promises you make to people, especially to those that you love. If you can't live up to something you're willing to give your word on, then you aren't worth much of a damn. On that note, he should never have promised such a thing to you. Some things are just silly to promise people. This is just a guess, but he probably only promised you that because he loves you a lot and didn't want to lose you (or have you play "hide the salami" with other people), over something that's likely very mundane and meaningless in his life. It's like asking a guy to wipe his ass with leaves for the rest of his life, and if he ever uses Charmin, he doesn't really love you... You really can't stop a guy from beating off now and then. It's nigh-impossible and kind of cruel. It has to be a pretty strange day when the woman you love comes up to you, and warns you never to touch your pecker again without her supervision or she's going to leave you....or bang someone from the pub out of spite. ::

 

I'm not sure what your particular issue with porn is (and feel free to share), but let me clue you in on a little secret of mine. Come on...get real close to the screen. That's right. Okay. Now you can't tell any of your girl-friends about this, because observing feminine lunacy on a large scale would make for a wonderful science experiment, and I still need to buy more graph paper and markers....

 

I have a girlfriend. We have sex on a regular basis, and it's a grand old time for us both. Woohoo. However, I still look at porn now and then. Now then... even though I'm occasionally looking at images of digi-bimbos on my laptop, chances are...

 

 

 

 

 

I'M THINKING ABOUT MY GIRLFRIEND.

 

 

What is that? The headcases weeping about men "cheating" with "women"; who contrary to their zealot-like beliefs otherwise, exist in our reality no more than Wonder Woman (or Santa Claus since it's the season)... suddenly trying the refreshing taste of STFU? Mmm...love that citrus.

 

I know that I’m not the only guy that this rings true for. Half of the time I jerk the steak bat, I end up thinking of my girlfriend. You know...that girl I have romantic feelings for who actually exists in physical reality? Yes, her. I’m not thinking about porn stars during my day. I could be looking at a picture of some chick soaping up in a tub, and in the end, I'm thinking about sex with my girlfriend in the shower. See how that works? Those thoughts are not voluntary, or obligatory, or conjured out of guilt. I have an attraction to my g/f and they just pop into my head at random [the one on my neck]. Porn is pretty much just a visual aid. Pretty innocent for most people, though some do abuse it (but the issue there is not the porn). In any case, if your average girl were to look at the history folder on my laptop, they'd automatically assume that I aspired to be the next Larry Flint. All of a sudden....

 

- "Grinning Maniac's a pervert!"

- "Grinning Maniac is a cheater!"

- "Grinning Maniac isn't attracted to his girlfriend!"

- "Grinning Maniac wants his gf to wear clear heels, get absurd tit implants, and do bukkake!"

- "Grinning Maniac loves porn more than actual sex!"

- "Grinning Maniac's a porn addict!"

- "Grinning Maniac thinks all women should be assigned shrinks at birth!"

 

...Ok that last one is true. You've got me dead to rights. But the rest? Completely wrong.

 

- Bondage porn is pushing it for me.

- Never cheated on anyone in my life, despise people who have (shocking).

- Nope. Way off on that one. 9/10 of my hard-ons will agree.

- Negative. I don't dig shoes in bed, fake tits don't bounce right, and the only jizz on my gf's face will be mine. Graaacias.

- I can't say that pixels beat the pussy. Sorry...

- If by "porn" you actually meant to say "Halo", then sure...

- Oh yes, I do. Stupid....stupid bitches.

 

 

Now you might be asking yourself... "If porn is so meaningless why not just stop looking at it? Don’t you loooove me?”

 

Simple. Porn is meaningless, but not useless. We look at porn because it’s just easier for us to masturbate when using pictures as a visual aid. That’s generally how men do the deed and have done it for ages. Ask around. When we were kids, we’d beat off to underwear ads in the Sunday paper, chicks with big racks in comic books, or Victoria’s Secret catalogs if we were lucky to find one. I remember one time when I was young, my buddy showed me some porn ripped out of a magazine and it was like he had stolen something from the FBI.

 

“Holy **** how’d you get that?!...Lemme see.”

 

The cliché image of the kid with porn mags under his bed isn’t around for nothing. We’re visual creatures. That’s just how we work. I think a lot of men dislike having to completely rely on “fantasy” to get off. I don’t feel like having to fantasize when I masturbate, because it’s not an intellectual activity to me. It’s no different than scratching an itch. I could pick my nose with as much “meaning” as I put into beating off. When we do indulge in complete fantasy for lack of “visual aid”, chances are, that along with undoubtedly thinking about you, we may also think about people we KNOW. I’ve never done that whole “anonymous girl w/ no name” thing outside of my dreams. Maybe we’ll think of someone in our pasts, someone in a class with us, or people that we just see on a regular basis. You’re still first in our minds and hearts, and it doesn’t mean that we’re pursuing them at all. We just remember what they look like, find that image attractive, and “borrow” them for a few minutes.

 

Which situation is worse to you? Your guy jerking off while looking pictures of women he will never see in person and has no personal opinion of…or him jerking off to the mental image of someone you may very well meet someday?

 

The bottom line is that having “revenge sex” over your boyfriend masturbating (and quite possibly thinking of YOU while he’s doing it) is just sad. End the relationship and find yourself a nice hardcore Christian who hates pornography, French kissing, and shorts in hot weather. You probably can’t control whether or not your guy will masturbate and he probably can’t stop you from sleeping around out of spite. What’s the point in continuing? Somehow I think that the topic of why he does what he does hasn’t really come up, or it’s possibly irrelevant to you. You haven’t brought it up here. I’m sure he understands that porn makes you upset. Does he understand *why*? I’m curious about that myself, because again, you haven’t mentioned it.

[hugznkisses21]

Grinning Maniac....

 

Im one of those bitches (a woman) and I couldnt agree with you more.

 

I would much rather my bf look at porn and get off them some girl down his street. Soemtimes I even buy him those Maxim magazines with half naked women in them..........WHO CARES...I hear ya bud!

[k8-uk]

Perhaps you should look at my reply to 'sweetheart's post on boyfriend and porn.

I didn't cheat out of revenge, I wish things in life were that simple. I did it because I thought things were over.

Why is it that so many people think that the explaination "this is just how men are and you should accept it" is ok?

You say I should go and find myself a hardened christian who is straight laced.

I spent two and a half years getting to know this guy before we went out and being totally honest about what I expected from a relationship.

I don't know what more one can do to make sure you're compatable.

 

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what the promise is. If the guy I fell in love with DID want me to wipe my arse with leaves for the rest of my life, Iwould not say "sure hun, that's what I was planning anyway" if I couldn't uphold the promise.

It might seem trivial or mental to other people, but if I love my partner, and know something will hurt him, and I've promised not to do it, I can't then go on to justify myself by saying,"Well, everyone uses bog-paper, don't they?"

 

You can't say that it's ok to misrepresent yourself, lie, and hurt someone because everyone does it,

because you have decided that it doesn't amount to anything important, because porn is acceptable to you.

 

If it's important to me (which I made it clear it was) then it should be important to someone who loves me.

Be it wiping your arse with leaves or using porn.

 

By the way, if you really think it's possible for me to leave this guy and find someone who won't use porn, then can you give me any tips as to how to spot this kind of guy?

Like I say, I spent years getting to know this man, and I had no reason to suspect that he was lying to me.

And I don't think the whole christian thing is much of a guarentee either.

So, if that's where you think I should be, then let me know if you've got any idea on how I might have achieved it. Perhaps a lie detector??

[Grinning Maniac]

Supposedly the answers to the many questions I bothered to ask k8-uk are in this thread that she's talking about. If someone knows what she's on about, could you link me please? I haven't found it yet and I don't have the patience to look all night on 56k. The closest match is a thread by "sweetlove" and there's not a post of her's in it.

[indigo_moon]

You wrote this:

 

I don't know why I didn't break up with him then. I guess I wasn't strong enough. I was unfaithful, didn't tell him, thought the whole thing was unrescuable....................Then time went by and he didn't use it for ages. Said he didn't really like himself for using it, wanted our relationship much more. I started to feel real guilty for what I'd done, but I had my faith back in the relationship and didn't want to hurt him by telling him.

 

 

Now I'm not judging you for something you did and can't change now, but you speak about how important honesty and keeping a promise are....yet YOU cheated on your boyfriend....YOU obviously weren't honest by doing this, and you obviously broke an unwritten promise to remain faithful, yes?

 

You say further down that you slept with someone else when you felt you and he had broke up....and that "things were over"...but up above it doesn't seem at all like you felt things were over then...

 

So don't you think there's a double standard here and that you're being a little hypocritical? Do you really think it's even fair to make a guy promise to not occasionally look at porn?

[k8-uk]

sorry, not 'sweetheart' it was 'sweetlove', and I've just checked and it looks like my message didn't get posted anyway.

Never mind that.

 

The thing is GM I don't think you understand me on this one at all.

You wrote a list of assumptions you think I may have about a man who uses porn.

I can't answer for all men, but,

No, I don't think my boyfriend is a pervert

No, I don't think it's the same as cheating

I'm sure my boyfriend is attracted to me

I'm sure he doesn't want me to change what I do to turn him on(high heels tit job etc)

No, I don't think he prefers it to actual sex.

No, I don't think he's addicted

Shrinks? Well, whatever dude....

 

Perhaps now you're thinking

"Well what is the problem then?"

I could try to explain it till I'm blue in the face but.....

I'm beginning to wonder if there's any point in trying to understand someone else's point of view on this.

 

>Which situation is worse to you? Your guy jerking off while looking >pictures of women he will never see in person and has no >personal opinion of…or him jerking off to the mental image of >someone you may very well meet someday?

 

The latter doesn't bother me. I think the question demonstrates your lack of understanding of what bothers me about porn.

You've answered my post on "viewing porn + masterbation - do I have a right to be hurt?" So you know it's the pictures and videos, not the fantasising that bothers me.

 

And you say what's the threat here? That you don't want a girl that's made herself like a porn star. That they are whores.

So clearly, you feel the need in your life for a woman that you respect and enjoy sex with AND some whore to jack off to.

So the two cannot be combined?

I feel more threatened by my partner getting something from some one that he wouldn't even want from me. Because that means there is nothing I can do about it.

 

I'd rather it was because I was frigid or boring in bed. It would still hurt but I would be in a position to do something about it.

 

And I don't feel unattractive or like I have to live up to something. When I talk about men making comparisons, I DON'T mean I think they deliberately go through what porn they've seen, comparing their girlfriend and deciding which is sexiest.

Though it would explain why so many men nowadays ask their girlfriends to keep well trimmed.

 

And actually we have talked at length about why he does what he does. He says he doesn't even find it acceptable, he feels guilty about using it, that it is just a visual aid to bring him off. When I'm not around, if I've pissed him off, if he's horny. He hasn't said anything I haven't heard before.

 

A lot of the people who reply to women who have a problem with their partners porn make the assumption that the woman hasn't tried to understand the guy's point of view on this.

 

Maybe that's true in some cases. I think a lot of women try very hard to understand, often before they get into a serious relationship, when they first learn what porn is and what a huge industry it is.

 

I've tried, and in the past I've even tried to 'desensitive' myself to it, all to no avail.

 

In some ways, I'd rather believe that my problem with porn was irrational and even 'psychotic' (thanks grinning maniac). Perhaps then I could get cured and be happy with the man in my life.

 

I'm not sure if this is true or not though,

Lots of women feel similarly to the way I feel about the subject, and the fact that much of it is kind of socially accepted and legal doesn't necessarily mean it's all my problem either. I'm sure you don't agree with every law and social norm in your country.

And I can't help but wonder why, if it is a totally irrational problem on my part, I don't have any other sexual problems (that I know of)

I can't live with someone who uses porn. I've heard all the arguments and explainations, and I'm afraid I still come to the same conclusion.

 

If this means I end up alone, then so be it. I just can't stand the fact that I was so assured for such a long time that it wouldn't be an issue, only to find out that I either hadn't been heard, or the person who made the assurances didn't mean it.

[k8-uk]

@indigo

 

Of course it was unacceptable.

I'm not making excuses here, just want to be understood.

I spent TWO AND A HALF YEARS getting to know this guy. We dicussed the subject a good few times and like I said, he made out he wasn't into it, never would be.

Then we were going out for THREE YEARS, still, I thought we were in agreement about the subject.

I was faithful during this time.

 

This doesn't make what I did eventually right, I know that.

And I wasn't unfaithful after the first time I found it. I tried to get him to tell me why, and he wouldn't say much, only he was sorry and it wouldn't happen again. I begged him then to be truthful with me, if this was going to crop up again, I'd rather know the score straight away.

 

He moved back in after a few months, again I became more trustful and thought that was the end of it. Then six months later I found more. I wasn't snooping. We share a computer and I came across it accidentally. Again he was sorry and said it would never happen again, but I don't think anyone would have belived him then.

 

I'm on this website to get some truthful debate. Because he's broken so many promises, that I don't know what to believe any more.

 

No, I shouldn't have been unfaithful. But contrary to popular belief, I didn't do it in revenge. I did it because I wanted to not care about him anymore. I wanted to distance myself from the person who kept hurting me.

I don't mean hurting me by looking at porn - but hurting me by repeatedly breaking promises and lying.

It's a foolish and crap way to try to stop loving some one, and it doesn't work.

I suppose I underestimated how much I loved him, and how hard it would be to push him out of my life. Obviously I wasn't honest with myself about my feelings.

 

I don't know what will happen now.

It's easy for people with no problem with porn to say 'get over it'

I've tried everything I can think of to either make it ok in my mind for him to have it.

I've also tried to believe him when he says it won't happen again.

 

Neither's working

[Grinning Maniac]

Of course there is a point in trying to understand someone else's point of view on this. Otherwise you're staying with your boyfriend for nothing, and also just wasting both of our time. You're here for some truthful debate? Well, I'm giving it.

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

And you say what's the threat here? That you don't want a girl that's made herself like a porn star. That they are whores. So clearly, you feel the need in your life for a woman that you respect and enjoy sex with AND some whore to jack off to. So the two cannot be combined?

I feel more threatened by my partner getting something from some one that he wouldn't even want from me. Because that means there is nothing I can do about it. I'd rather it was because I was frigid or boring in bed. It would still hurt but I would be in a position to do something about it.

 

...and this statement demonstrates your lack of understanding on the way we typically view porn. I may get a little deep with this, so sorry in advance. I love psychology. There are two ways of looking at a porn pic. You can look at the shape of the girl's curves and all her desirable bits, and you can look at the girl as a whole person with dreams and a soul. Men split those two things far, far apart automatically. I think you're seeing them as one combined thing. That's not how it is for us.

 

When men jack off to pictures, that's all we're jacking off to...PICTURES. Nothing more. We're not jacking off to porn stars...just pixels on a computer screen. During masturbation, that is all they exist as. I'm speaking for myself, but I don't care who any girl on my computer screen really is as a person. Because as far as I'm concerned, she's NOT a person. She's just a digital representation of tits and ass. That's all. Completely anonymous and infinitely interchangable. The actual woman in the picture is meaningless to me. If you could render me a realistic 3D model of a naked woman from your imagination, I'd be just as fine with it. I don't "need a whore" to jack off to, because at that moment I don't see the image on the screen as being the image of a whore. I don't see the image as anything more than a random pair of tits and an ass; and I don't care who those body parts actually belong to. It could be a young librarian, a disgruntled nurse or a mentally disabled crack-addict for all I care. If the outward appearance is attractive, it's jerk-worthy and that's as far as I give a ****. That doesn't mean that I'm secretly desiring the love of a ****ing crackhead...

 

Let me illustrate my point: What kind of woman is the Mona Lisa? How about the Venus de Milo? Exactly. They aren't any type of woman because they aren't real. They're representations of the female form. Nothing more.

 

On the flip side of the coin, after we're "through" with the image, a man could look at it and see a girl there...a girl who sleeps with a lot of people on film for money, and personally, I don't see that to be girlfriend/wife material. I wouldn't get into a relationship with a porn star or a hooker. It seems like too much drama. I don't think I'm alone on that. I've heard many guys say they'd bang a porn star, but I've never heard a man talk about marrying one.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

I feel more threatened by my partner getting something from someone that he wouldn't even want from me. Because that means there is nothing I can do about it. I'd rather it was because I was frigid or boring in bed. It would still hurt but I would be in a position to do something about it.

 

He's getting something from someone? Really? WHO is he getting it from? As I said, I don't think many guys consider porn stars to be "people" in the way women seem to. Please try to understand this, it might help...

 

As far as WHAT he's getting...what would that be exactly? By your own admission, the man has told you himself that all he's using porn for is:

 

"...a visual aid to bring him off. When I'm not around, if I've pissed him off, if he's horny.."

 

How does that equate to him "getting something from someone else"? He's beating himself off, not visiting some girl down the street for a handjob...

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

When I talk about men making comparisons, I DON'T mean I think they deliberately go through what porn they've seen, comparing their girlfriend and deciding which is sexiest.

Though it would explain why so many men nowadays ask their girlfriends to keep well trimmed.

 

So then what DO you mean when you refer to men making "comparisons" then? There's another way to take that? Explain.

 

By the way, I don't think the trimmed/hairless trend is a matter of porn emulation. Aesthetics, maybe...but I asked my girlfriend to do it because I was tired of dealing with hairs in my mouth...

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

I can't live with someone who uses porn. I've heard all the arguments and explainations, and I'm afraid I still come to the same conclusion.

 

Then perhaps just shut up with the "but..but...i love him" **** and leave? I'm sorry to be harsh, but I think the reason the guy keeps apologizing over and over is because you're flipping your lid and guilt-tripping the living **** out of him. You kicked him out of the house the first time you found some porn, according to you. That'll make any guy with less than balls of brass feel sorry. But goddamn... He must have felt like a punk around the other homeless dudes...

 

Homeless 1: "What you out here for?"

 

Homeless 2: "They canned my ass and took my pension. How about you?"

 

Homeless 1: "My house burned down and took everything with it...including my family. What about you, man?"

 

Your BF: "I..I was touching myself."

 

Homeless 1: "...Get the **** out of here. This is our burning oil drum. You aint nobody. Find somewhere else to sleep... pussywhipped bitch."

 

 

When you kicked him out, I doubt that was a calm situation either. I'd bet it was something like:

 

*heavy sobs and ****ed up mascara*

 

"HOW COULD YOU HURT ME LIKE THIIISSS???? YOU LIEEEED YOU BASTAAAARD!! HOW COULD YOU TOUCH YOUR OWN PECKERRRR THIS IS WORSE THAN KILLING INFANTS AND EATING THEIR CORPSESSSS BOOHOOHOO I HATE YOU SO MUUUCH GET OUT GET OUT GET OUUUUTTTT!!!!"

 

Ok, maybe not that crazy, but I get the feeling you didn't just whisper "How dare you...", pointed to the door, and he just zipped his fly up and walked out like cool breeze. If I had to guess I'd say you were probably weeping, or crumpled on the floor and ****. Crying is emotional blackmail. Of course the man is going to say he's sorry, and he'll never do it again, and that he "disgusts" himself, and blahblahblah... He probably wanted you to calm down. That would trip me up to get kicked out of the house for touching my own dick. I wouldn't care how much you warn someone you hate porn. They're not expecting that to happen. The last thing I think any man...any real man, would expect at the end of their day would be to walk in the door to see his woman glaring at him with tears in her eyes and have her bust out with some:

 

YOUUUU''VVVEE BEEEN TOUCCCHHINNNNG YOUUURRRRPENNISSS!!!! *sobsob*

 

What? You were expecting him to pick you up, slap the **** out of you Sean Connery 007-style, and tell you "I'm a man, damnit, and I'll do what I please when it comes to my caulk! Now fix me a steak..." ?

 

Heh..Ok I'm done. But come on. If he loves you, and you're getting all emotional about the situation, yeah, he'll probably tell a little white lie to calm the situation down. It doesn't mean he's a bad guy. If you love him so much and you have a good relationship, what's the deal? But hey...it's your choice. You're probably always going to have a problem with this...and sexual habits are a tad hard to change.

 

If you can't live with it and it really sees worth it to boot the guy because he jerks his meat periodically when he's not getting laid at that moment[that horrible piece of ****]... break up. Release the cock. Set it free.

[Chris_T.]

Crazy $hit. LOL.

[k8-uk]

Oh grinning maniac, you and your assuptions.

No, it wasn't like that.

I'm actually a very calm person.

I didn't 'sob'. And I didn't try to make him feel guilty for TOUCHING HIMSELF.

I don't have a problem with my partner masturbating. He knew this too.

I was annoyed, but if I really was schitzoid I think I would have at least smashed the computer up.

I didn't. He took it with him.

I really just kept trying to get him to explain why he hadn't been more straight with me - I thought he had more balls. What I said to him was, if it's really ok, and I am in the wrong here then at least defend it so I have something to go on.

He would give me no answers that first time. Only apologies and promises - and HE was the one that was sobbing.

(and no, that didn't please me one bit. I wanted a rational discussion and for us both to voice our opinions, not emotional outbursts that are unavoidable, but usually make rational discussion impossible)

 

And by the way, GM, despite the fact that we don't agree I'm thankful for your debate on this. I appreciate it if someone is doing something they think is ok, they should be able to say why.

 

Everything you said about how men view porn, how they probably wouldn't want to marry a porn star and how they are not seeing them as real people I ALREADY KNEW

I knew that before I popped my cherry hun.

 

Comparisons?

 

Comparisons between the real woman in your life and some vids?

 

You've drawn about twenty comparisons between the two in your last post.

 

Usually the girlfriend compares more favourably, I know that already, but comparisons ARE being drawn.

 

And you also seem to assume that I have hatred and anger for him. Yes, I'm pissed off, but not to the extent that I don't want to talk about it and learn something from it.

 

And as for the crux of the matter (at least in some peoples view)

What my actual problem with porn is?

Having gone through all the assumptions that a lot of men make about women and their dislike of porn, I've almost given up trying to explain it.

If you think all those things

(i.e. i don't want my boyfriend to touch himself,

I think he sees pornstars as real people.

I think he is a pervert, I'm just jealous, I'm just a prude,)

If you really think all those things, how can you listen to why I don't like porn or want my partner to use it WITH AN OPEN HEART AND MIND?

 

 

Now I realise that we all have bias on a subject. Some times it's harder to take a subjective view if your bias comes from the fact that that the subject matter is connected to something you find pleasurable (so would have a motive for wanting to see as ok)

 

I may have my biases on this subject, but I certainly don't have a pleasure to gain from it and I want to understand all sides.

 

I might not have been too clear on this up until now. I'll excuse myself for being a little more emotional at this time in my life, even if you won't. (Bereavement isn't always the best preparation for intelligent debate)

 

I suppose I wasn't clearly expressing myself when I said he was getting something from 'someone' (although who said anything about the pornstars? I may have been refering to the director. Assumptions again...)

 

If you want to suppose that pornagraphy is purely composed of 'things' rather than people (at least in the way that someone uses it) then that is not some'thing' that I want my partner to use.

 

I've got nothing against a 'little white lie' GM.

Hell, we've all gotta live together.

But if you lie about something that you know is important to someone and that really has the power to upset them, then the lie ain't white, and it ain't little.

 

If we had never discussed porn and I discovered he had used it and lied to cover it up, then yes, they would have been little white lies.

 

I fyou really want me to understand, feel ok about a partner using porn and thus, in your mind, become more rational - then why all the assumptions?

 

Why assume that I don't know how and why my partner uses porn?

Everything you've said on that subject is true and I knew it. He has told me and I also found out enough about it to know all those things before I started properly dating.

 

You think I don't get that stuff, and if I did I would be as cool about it as you are. I'm afraid I do and I'm still not.

[Chris_T.]

Jesus Christ, it's porn, it's a fantasy, dude didn't cheat YOU DID. Get the fluck over it. You're insane.

 

If I were him i'd RUN RUN RUN away from you as fast as possible. You have serious issues and would benefit greatly from some therapy and strong drugs.

[indigo_moon]

k8,

 

No offense but you've really got a problem here...and it's your problem, not his. I'm saying this as a woman, who was raised with Christian beliefs/morals. I'm not a big endorser of porn but would I get my titties in a knot all because my boyfriend (who is not something I own or can dictate to) views the odd bit of porn. God, there's such bigger issues out there. If your relationship is good otherwise and he treats you with kindness and respect and consideration, he doesn't sleep around, he works hard, you can count on him.......then let it go or let HIM go. You've gone on and on and on and on and ON about this. If you can't handle the man he is, then move on. Just because you spent a lot of time getting to know him and had an understanding that you didn't dig porn....well i'm sure although you maybe didn't have a verbal understand that you'd remain faithful to one another, he rightfully assumed/understood you'd remain faithful - don't you think? Everybody has faults and shortcomings, cut him some slack or cut him loose and find someone who's willing to take regular polygraph tests to verify their commitment to not do what most guys do. Grinning Maniac gave you a really clear explanation of how men view porn....it's nothing person, it's pixels on a screen.......but if you can't accept this, then quit making a federal case out of this and let it go and find someone else. Geez. If he was a porn addict and porn was interfering with your relationship directly, he was avoiding all intimacy with you, or he was up all night beating off to porn and missing work the next day, or viewing freaky illegal crap then sure, I'd say you have a right to be p*ssed.....but it sounds to me like his usage is very occasional. I'd rather have a partner diddle off to porn once in a while than go out and play hide the salami with someone else - any day.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Originally posted by k8-uk

He knows I've been unfaithful now, so the decision may not be in my hands.

 

I hope he can find the strength to make the right decision for himself.

[Chris_T.]

Originally posted by indigo_moon

k8,

 

No offense but you've really got a problem here...and it's your problem, not his. I'm saying this as a woman, who was raised with Christian beliefs/morals. I'm not a big endorser of porn but would I get my titties in a knot all because my boyfriend (who is not something I own or can dictate to) views the odd bit of porn. God, there's such bigger issues out there. If your relationship is good otherwise and he treats you with kindness and respect and consideration, he doesn't sleep around, he works hard, you can count on him.......then let it go or let HIM go. You've gone on and on and on and on and ON about this. If you can't handle the man he is, then move on. Just because you spent a lot of time getting to know him and had an understanding that you didn't dig porn....well i'm sure although you maybe didn't have a verbal understand that you'd remain faithful to one another, he rightfully assumed/understood you'd remain faithful - don't you think? Everybody has faults and shortcomings, cut him some slack or cut him loose and find someone who's willing to take regular polygraph tests to verify their commitment to not do what most guys do. Grinning Maniac gave you a really clear explanation of how men view porn....it's nothing person, it's pixels on a screen.......but if you can't accept this, then quit making a federal case out of this and let it go and find someone else. Geez. If he was a porn addict and porn was interfering with your relationship directly, he was avoiding all intimacy with you, or he was up all night beating off to porn and missing work the next day, or viewing freaky illegal crap then sure, I'd say you have a right to be p*ssed.....but it sounds to me like his usage is very occasional. I'd rather have a partner diddle off to porn once in a while than go out and play hide the salami with someone else - any day.

 

Very well said. My GF found one of my pornos once and we both LAUGHED about it. It was the title.."A Tale of Two Titties"...we laughed all night. She gave me grief about it for awhile..in a FUN way.

 

Life is WAY too short to get upset about stuff like this.

[Grinning Maniac]

Originally posted by k8-uk

Oh grinning maniac, you and your assumptions.

 

*sigh*...The reason I'm making assumptions, and jokes, and generally just messing with you, is because YOU'RE NOT TELLING US THE PROBLEM. Look back at your original post. You say what happened [in a very jumbled "Last week on 'Faps of Our Lives'... " sort of way] but give almost no details, explainations or feelings. You don't need to write something the size of "War and Peace", but you never say WHY this makes you so mad. You chronicle three incidents...and nothing of the sort. It's a recap, with no meat. So what is there to debate? The only thing you give detail on is that people shouldn't break promises and lie. No argument there, at least not from me. Look, we can only make comments on what you say. The problem is, there are too many holes and the types of unanswered questions that anyone talking with you about this would want the answers to. So, instead of spending my night asking the same questions 50 times, I simply responded to what you told us and *assumed* things about all the other factors in the situation based on that.

 

The ironic part, is that in responding to the jokes I've made, and the things I assumed about you in doing so, you've given more information on your situation than you actually did when you started the post. :; While I was obviously taking the piss with most of that stuff in my last post, it could have all been accurate as far as I knew. But you've narrowed things down and that helps, so thank you. But you're still holding out a bit. For example:

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

Comparisons? Comparisons between the real woman in your life and some vids? You've drawn about twenty comparisons between the two in your last post. Usually the girlfriend compares more favourably, I know that already, but comparisons ARE being drawn.

 

....such as? See, right after that sentence would be the part where a person would normally continue on with new information. What is this? Come on... What the hell. This is telling me nothing. You're pointing me back to my own post, and asking me to do all of the work by analyzing what I wrote, just to try and figure out what YOU'RE trying to say? Are you kidding? Regardless, by doing that, wouldn't I be ASSUMING what you meant? If you think I made "comparisons" in my last post, why not point them out and tell me how they relate to what you're getting at? Or better yet...why not just answer the question that I asked you in the first place and TELL me what you meant when you said men make comparisons after having watched porn? Geeez...

 

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

What my actual problem with porn is? Having gone through all the assumptions that a lot of men make about women and their dislike of porn, I've almost given up trying to explain it. .... If you really think all those things, how can you listen to why I don't like porn or want my partner to use it WITH AN OPEN HEART AND MIND?

 

You won't tell me what need to I know because my heart and mind are not open to hear it... Who are you? The Oracle? Part of the reason you're "going through" all these assumptions is that you're not giving the facts. If you're not going to answer questions, and don't want people assuming answers....then don't have a thread.

 

Stop jerking around, worrying about if I'm "open" enough, in your opinion, to understand your reasons for feeling the way you do. I think that's up to me. Stop fretting about how "complicated" it is, or how difficult you feel it is to express... because in the time you've taken to say to NOT say it, you could have said it already...twice.

 

SPIT IT OUT.

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

Now I realise that we all have bias on a subject. Some times it's harder to take a subjective view if your bias comes from the fact that that the subject matter is connected to something you find pleasurable (so would have a motive for wanting to see as ok). I may have my biases on this subject, but I certainly don't have a pleasure to gain from it and I want to understand all sides.

 

Now YOU'RE making assumptions. I'm sure I do have a bias in this subject, but it's not because I loooove beating off. It's because there's a new "my bf looks at porn! what do i doooo???" thread on LS almost every 24 hours, and the women starting them ask the SAME THING EVERY TIME. I've really lost count. The situations and opinions are all nearly identical, and it's never anything serious such as... a guy having an entire room devoted to porn and beating off so much that he ignores the need for food or sleep. It's usually a girl religiously(sometimes literally) convinced that porn is evil, it degrades women, replaces sex, creates rapists/perverts, and that it means her boyfriend's "cheating", doesn't really love her, and will dump her for an up-and-coming gangbang queen. Your first post was pretty vague, so I just assumed you were Angry Customer #92842.

 

Sorry, misunderstandings can happen.

 

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

I suppose I wasn't clearly expressing myself when I said he was getting something from 'someone' (although who said anything about the pornstars? I may have been refering to the director. Assumptions again...)

 

Helpful Hint: EXPRESS YOURSELF CLEARLY NOW.

 

See, this is what I mean. I would think that after that first sentence, some more crucial information would CLEARLY be on it's way. Yippie! I started off reading that sentence with the hope and expectation of finding out just what you meant, and finished reading it... wanting to hang myself.

 

By the way, how do you figure that it's obvious you were referring to anyone else but a porn star?Somethings aren't assumptions. They're just ****ing expectations of a sentence. If I was talking to someone about apples and they said to me "I just don't like them that much." and I said "Oh come on, they're delicious...", I wouldn't think the next words out of their mouth could be:

 

"Huh? What the hell is delicious about the floormats of an '87 Chevy?"

 

I'm sorry, but somehow it seemed like the logical answer to ME. Am I alone on this? During that conversation, were any of you coming up with "Sammy Davis Jr." or "Willy Wonka the Amazing Chocolateer" for the ****ing mystery guest her boyfriend was "getting things" from? Jesus Christ... *rubs temples*

 

 

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

If you want to suppose that pornagraphy is purely composed of 'things' rather than people (at least in the way that someone uses it) then that is not some'thing' that I want my partner to use.

 

That's fine by me. Is there any particular reason why? If you don't care for it, that's alright. But what is it about porn that makes it that much of a "deal-breaker" to you? What is it that makes it such a serious issue? I'm trying to peel back the onion here. I've probably asked this a million times and if you've already answered it in this post, fine. Just ignore this one. But there has to be some underlaying reasoning behind your point of view and up to this point you haven't expressed it.

 

Originally posted by k8-uk

Why assume that I don't know how and why my partner uses porn?

 

Because until now, you hadn't given any evidence to the contrary.

-------------------------------------------

 

I'm done. This is tiring.

[Grinning Maniac]

@Chris: Yeah, it really is. My gf is the same way, thankfully. She thinks that whole "porn =cheating" mentality is retarded. We were getting a good laugh a while ago about this porno I found that was "caveman-themed". It's so ridiculous and bad that you can't even beat off to it. Grunts, "caveman language" complete with subtitles, it's just the funniest porno ever. I don't even consider it porn. I just use it to cheer myself up when I've had a bad day.

 

So, so terrible.

 

@indigo: Ditto to chris' reply. Nicely done.

[k8-uk]

Okay, I'm getting fairly tired of it too.

 

Please don't hang yourself GM. You don't have to talk to me anymore!

 

I guess I am wary of taking on the whole 'Is porn right?' debate.

 

Arguments when you are in the minority are very tiring.

 

You usually spend half the debate establishing the fact that the majority aren't always right.

 

Yes, I think porn is wrong.

 

In itself, not because of any feeling of being cheated on.

 

One of the main reasons for me posting in the first place was because so many women think they have no right to feel the way they do about it and say nothing.

 

Soo many women I've spoken to look kinda relieved when I'm open about how I feel on the subject. They have often never felt free to express themselves about it before - it is such a 'socially accepted norm'

 

The argument, 'Well I'd rather he did that than something far worse' seems a sad reason for accepting something.

 

And no, I'm not wary of taking on such a debate because I feel uninformed or unsure of my argument.

 

Of course I'm no 'oracle', but I have had more experience and background knowledge on the subject than you might think. I just can't be bothered to debate it here and now, as I know it would take forever, and the reasons and debate are already out there if you want to look for both sides.(and I'm NOT just talking about bible bashing anti-porners)

 

And I guess I was foolish to think that I could trust a man never to have any. I was in a long relationship with a man who didn't agree with it and never had any, so I suppose I thought it was possible again.

 

I don't expect to change anyone or their point of view. I'd just like my partner to feel like I do on a few key things that are important to me.

 

And I'm afraid noone has the right to tell anyone what SHOULD be important to them. So it's no good just telling me it's trivial.

 

He's still here, and we're just seeing how things go for a while.

 

I apologise for posting this thread in "cheating and flirting". As I suppose it turns out that wasn't the heart of the matter. Just saw related posts here and wasn't sure where to put it. Thanks for being good to vent on GM. You did teach me a lot about the assumptions you need to overcome before having a debate on the subject. Right now I'm going to concentrate on my relationship - so we'll have to save the debate for another time.

[Grinning Maniac]

No, arguments where one side (even if they are in the minority) refuses to explain their point of view are tiring. And for the record, I was already clear that it wasn't a "porn = cheating" issue with you earlier. You spent a lot of effort saying what the problem isn't instead of what it is.

 

Why bother to even make the thread to discuss this if you never planned on clarifying what exactly upsets you about it? The only one responsible for "trying to prove the majority wrong" was you. What exactly is there to discuss if no one knows the problem? I wasn't looking for a debate, and I wasn't trying to "change your mind" either. You can't convince someone who thinks that something is wrong that it's actually right. But understanding someone elses side is almost always possible. I was trying to see if I could possibly help your situation or provide some understanding, just like everyone else in every other thread on LS. It was kind of useless for any of us to try and provide any insight if you were unwilling to do the same. I hope the guy you're with has a better understanding of what's driving your requests, or I'd say you two are in trouble.

 

And again, there's no way that just explaining your reasons for feeling how you do would have taken longer than it has for this thread to grow into an anticlimax. That's a cop out. Anything can be shortened into a few sentences. Oh well. If you ever figure that out, I'm guessing LS will still be around. Good luck.

 

PS: What are these "inapproriate comments" you keep getting modded for? I'm curious. We're not little kids. You're welcome to just PM me since you've gotten foxed twice.