Do Nice Guys Finish Last?

[ShyGuy5]

I was watching a video the other day and one girl said that the biggest turn off was if the guy was too nice. She was early 20s (20-22). It disappointed me because I would consider myself a nice guy. I know that there are some a-holes that do get girls and don't treat them right and that works for them, but thats not me. When I do meet new people, I try to be nice and then once I get to know them and are comfortable then I start to tease them and start to push their buttons a little (all in good fun with good intent). Ive always thought that I might not be the guy for them right now, but rather a long term investment that will pay off later down the road. I am curious as I start to go out into the dating world how things look for nice guys, especially someone in their early 20s. I anticipate that it might be a struggle, but I would like some feedback from those who are out there and experience it to give their thoughts.

[Agent Orange]

A lot of guys who claim they're nice, usually aren't. No offense, but if you feel like you need to tell people or always remind them that you're a "nice guy", methinks thou dost protest too much. Plenty of girls are looking for a guy they can see themselves settling down with but most of them need to go through the jerk phase before they can actually see the good ones for what they are.

 

If you're in your early 20s and already think of yourself as the long term investment type of guy, you might want to look for slightly older women in their mid-20s who are looking for something more serious.

 

Nice guys don't always finish last, but they do have a hard time finding people who won't take advantage of them.

[ChessPieceFace]

Humans are animals. The truth is that jerks get a lot of women. Aggressive, dominant behavior wins the day, and it is natural and common for this behavior to be paired with a lack of "evolved" traits like consideration for others, empathy, etc. Humans are simply not an evolved species. Most human females' selection behavior is utterly revolting, and this is something you'll have to accept and rise above if you plan to date women.

 

That said, not every woman goes after the scum, and even though it's common for the lowest scum of manhood to get the women, you don't HAVE to be scum to get a fair amount of success. It may be a long struggle for you to figure out how to have "confidence" while still having a moral compass, but it's what you're facing.

 

Don't bother asking womens' opinions on this subject. They are in denial about the ugliness of their nature. Most men don't even understand it - some were born with alpha behavior, and have no clue what it's like to be on the other side. Many betas etc aren't don't understand why they fail, or they turn to piggish techniques to fake confidence or turn themselves into the alpha pigs... I've seen very little good advice on this site on this subject.

 

Me? Well, I've stopped caring very much. Having a happy relationship with a western woman seems almost impossible, regardless of how hard I'd work to improve myself and my chances - feminism has wrecked much of the chances we'd have had. Western men are fools to get married with the laws stacked so heavily against them, and I don't have much interest in casual sex. I just don't enjoy games stacked so ridiculously against me. Rather play video games...

Edited November 30, 2013 by ChessPieceFace

[Agent Orange]

feminism has wrecked much of the chances we'd have had. Western men are fools to get married with the laws stacked so heavily against them, and I don't have much interest in casual sex. I just don't enjoy games stacked so ridiculously against me. Rather play video games...

 

What does feminism have to do with anything? That sounds like a load of horse s***.

[Phoe]

I frequently am told that because I am a bit of an odd person that my opinion on these forums doesn't count (lol), but I like the nice, quiet, nerd type of guy.

[ChessPieceFace]

What does feminism have to do with anything? That sounds like a load of horse s***.

 

No-fault divorce and single-parent custody awarded to the woman in 90%+ of cases guarantee that married men will either end up divorced & the victims of financial rape, or stay in bad/sexless marriages to avoid said financial rape at the hands of the system. Add in the steady diet of man-bashing in every form of media, where men and boys are told and shown all the ways in which they deserve to be abused, and even worse, women and girls are taught how fatherhood is meaningless, how male behavior is bad, how men's needs are incidental, and how they (the exalted females) deserve completely unrealistic ideals of manhood, while little to nothing is expected of THEM.

 

Oh, and don't forget the ludicrous contradiction that women demand to earn as much as men, while only respecting men who earn significantly more than they do.

 

Now we have a nation of divorced women with kids, trolling dating sites, wondering where all these "ideal men" are to come sweep them off their feet, while financially draining their ex-husband's bank account for child support money and spending it frivolously.

 

While there are still some success stories, by and large, feminism has destroyed the institution of marriage. Anyone who disagrees is living in a complete fantasy.

 

That said, no one has a gun to your head forcing you to get married. If you want to have casual sex, go for it. It's probably as good a time for that as it's ever been. Personally, I never believed in casual sex and wouldn't get much out of it. I was raised to respect women and believe in traditional values. Unfortunately the world has shown me why that no longer works.

[Dark_history]

When you talk about a "nice" guy, there are actually different types of nice guys. The one you mention that finishes last is the one that is nice seeking approval by being nice. In their mind, when approaching a female, they think "oh if I show her how nice I am, she will grow to like me and we can get closer by being friends....". This kind of thinking shows a lack of confidence in one's self, in that you have to use this "niceness" in order to get someone to like you.

 

Than you have the other kind of nice, the gentleman. He is "nice" because that is his nature. He is not looking for the approvals of others by being nice, it is how he is. He will open the door for a woman, talk to her like an equal and is genuinely interested in getting to know her, not her approval. Here is the key difference though, the gentleman doesn't take any bull$*** from anyone. He won't shy away from a confrontation or arguement, or in putting someone in their place by being "nice" (aka weak/a pushover) he will stand his own, because he knows he is worthy of respect, just as he shows it to others.

[Agent Orange]

Yeah, it really sounds like you have a world of respect for women so long as they all have that Nancy Reagan simper on their face as they gaze adoringly at their husband while standing barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making dinner.

 

Newsflash, it's not 1955 and I doubt you're Beaver Cleaver. Might be time to grab on to reality, hold on tight and stop generalizing women in such a myopic, misogynistic, stereotyped fashion.

 

Plus you sound like one of the spurned women you so clearly respect.

[ChessPieceFace]

I respect women who are worthy of respect. I also expect it in return. Problem is, these days there are few women worthy of respect and even fewer who offer it in return.

 

Funny how fast you resort to ad-hominem attacks. When you come up with a single counterargument or shred of evidence to disprove my very clear and obvious rundown of the REALITY we now unfortunately live in, get back to me.

 

I'll be waiting in anticipation.

[Eggplant]

No-fault divorce and single-parent custody awarded to the woman in 90%+ of cases guarantee that married men will either end up divorced & the victims of financial rape, or stay in bad/sexless marriages to avoid said financial rape at the hands of the system.

Women lose more in the long run from divorce. The financially dependent spouse gets an initial payout, but over the years, she's worse off. By the way, is no-fault divorce attributed to feminism??

 

Add in the steady diet of man-bashing in every form of media, where men and boys are told and shown all the ways in which they deserve to be abused, and even worse, women and girls are taught how fatherhood is meaningless, how male behavior is bad, how men's needs are incidental, and how they (the exalted females) deserve completely unrealistic ideals of manhood, while little to nothing is expected of THEM.

There is a lot of ****** on TV, including emasculating portrayals of men. People need to speak out against that.

 

Oh, and don't forget the ludicrous contradiction that women demand to earn as much as men, while only respecting men who earn significantly more than they do.

People in general are stupid about this subject, some men and some women. I have never dated a man who made as much as I, and it's never been an issue.

 

Now we have a nation of divorced women with kids, trolling dating sites, wondering where all these "ideal men" are to come sweep them off their feet, while financially draining their ex-husband's bank account for child support money and spending it frivolously.

There are irresponsible crazy women out there as a subset of the irresponsible crazy people out there. You are portraying here women as the largely irresponsible crazier sex, compared to the grounded male population. No -- recognize your bias. Just because you are a man and the people you don't like are female doesn't mean you should be sexist. There are just as many, if not more, males who are walking irresponsible disasters, drunkards, hazardous to their family. Men are of course not that way in general. Neither are women, in general.

 

While there are still some success stories, by and large, feminism has destroyed the institution of marriage. Anyone who disagrees is living in a complete fantasy.

The de-stigmatization of divorce is what has destroyed the institution. Is that de-stigmatization a bad thing? I think so, although you yourself earlier in this same post just bemoaned men being trapped in marriages, so you seem to on one hand feel that there should be an option to divorce, yet on the other hand lament that that option is there. If you have mixed feelings, I cannot blame you. It isn't as though everything was perfect before the social movements. They were in response to problems. The solutions may or may not be worse. But it's not a black and white issue.

 

That said, no one has a gun to your head forcing you to get married. If you want to have casual sex, go for it. It's probably as good a time for that as it's ever been. Personally, I never believed in casual sex and wouldn't get much out of it. I was raised to respect women and believe in traditional values. Unfortunately the world has shown me why that no longer works.

OP will find real relationships if he wants them.

[joystickd]

What does feminism have to do with anything? That sounds like a load of horse s***.

I think this is what he is talking about.

[d0nnivain]

ShyGuy -- Nice guys get a bad rap because people confuse "nice" with "doormat". You should be nice -- meaning polite, chivalrous, romantic etc. But you must also be true to yourself & not subjugate yourself to the other person in the hopes of avoiding any conflict. Stand up for yourself. Make decisions. Be confident. You don't have to be mean to do those things but you won't finish "last" because you refused to let anyone walk all over you.

 

Understand the difference?

[oldshirt]

"nice" has many different meanings.

 

Guys that treat women with common curtesy and manners but don't try to buy their pussys with gifts and showers of affection and idolations and who don't let people push them around and manipulate them do fine.

 

A few things will guarantee you will finish last that people label as being "nice."

 

- being spineless, being a pushover and being easily manipulated by anyone, especially women.

 

- showering women with gifts and insincere compliments and insincere admiration in hopes of scoring some poontang.

 

- being a woman's little errand boy and doing her dirty work and heavy lifting in hopes of scoring some poontang.

 

- Being a woman's shoulder to cry on and being her tissue boy that hands her the tissues and tells her how great she is and that everyone is an ******* when the men she's actually attracted to treat her bad.

 

- agreeing with her all the time when it's not sincere and never having any opinions of your own.

 

- only wanting to please her and doing only things she wants to do and not having any interests, friends, hobbies or activities of your own.

 

- appeasing other people and not standing up for yourself.

 

- appeasing her and letting her get away with bad behavior and not standing up for what is right.

 

- being morally and ethically ambivalent and not wanting to rock the boat on moral and ethical issues. subscribing to situational ethics, ie "..well that may be wrong most of the time BUT SINCE THIS SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.........."

 

 

Those are the examples of "nice" that will always make you finish last.

 

If you substitute 'nice' for "weak" it will give you a better idea.

[boaaaar]

Of course they finish last because anyone can have their niceness for free, therefore it doesn't hold much value. Two people distribute some goods, one of them gives them for free and the other one doesn't, who's the last one to get his money ?

[Imported]

OP, it depends on what you look like and either your ability to provide a good life (money) or indicators of it. If you look like a sinking boat financially, most women will avoid you.

 

Nice guys don't finish last OP, but guys that do finish last like to think of themselves as a "nice guy".

[AnyaNova]

Humans are animals. The truth is that jerks get a lot of women. Aggressive, dominant behavior wins the day, and it is natural and common for this behavior to be paired with a lack of "evolved" traits like consideration for others, empathy, etc. Humans are simply not an evolved species. Most human females' selection behavior is utterly revolting, and this is something you'll have to accept and rise above if you plan to date women.

 

That said, not every woman goes after the scum, and even though it's common for the lowest scum of manhood to get the women, you don't HAVE to be scum to get a fair amount of success. It may be a long struggle for you to figure out how to have "confidence" while still having a moral compass, but it's what you're facing.

 

Don't bother asking womens' opinions on this subject. They are in denial about the ugliness of their nature. Most men don't even understand it - some were born with alpha behavior, and have no clue what it's like to be on the other side. Many betas etc aren't don't understand why they fail, or they turn to piggish techniques to fake confidence or turn themselves into the alpha pigs... I've seen very little good advice on this site on this subject.

 

Me? Well, I've stopped caring very much. Having a happy relationship with a western woman seems almost impossible, regardless of how hard I'd work to improve myself and my chances - feminism has wrecked much of the chances we'd have had. Western men are fools to get married with the laws stacked so heavily against them, and I don't have much interest in casual sex. I just don't enjoy games stacked so ridiculously against me. Rather play video games...

 

Boy, by your own logic the women should be beating down your door.

 

I wonder why they aren't? You know, many of us women have had bad experiences with men and still manage not to label and stereotype the whole of your gender because of it.

 

I do not go around claiming that all men are jerks, or pigs, or heartless or anything like that.

 

Perhaps you could try opening your worldview a little. Biology does NOT determine everything for the vast majority of us. Frankly some of us prefer the thoughtful types over the brash types.

 

Also, many of us women are capable of this remarkable feat called "introspection," meaning that we actually do have quite a good understanding of why we do the things we do.

 

perhaps you might find your own situation improving, if you were capable of understanding that many of us have intelligence and compassion, and weren't just slavering animals responding to brain chemicals and biology.

[GemmaUK]

I' rather date a good man than a self proclaimed nice guy.

 

I've dated two self proclaimed nice guys - both were very needy and very controlling - or - tried to be controlling.

 

The last one especially so.

I struggle to remember each and every single rule he attempted to give me to stick by, how I should behave and how many times I got into trouble for being me and actually doing nothing in the least bit wrong.

 

As yet I have never dated a bad boy....hmmm...with the behaviour of the nice guys it kinda makes me wonder whether there is any difference!

[d0nnivain]

those who never lived the life of a nice guy truly have no idea who they are talking about. they have this crazy' date=' inaccurate vision in their heads of what a nice guy is, and your list shows that. I don't believe a single nice guy exists with all of these characteristics and many have none. nice guys don't have these characteristics any more than the average guy. the sad truth is women usually don't desire nice guys. .[/quote']

 

The list supplied by oldshirt is accurate. It contains the characteristics of the so called "nice guys" that women despise. The point is that those aren't nice guys. Those are weak guys, who have have no self confidence & who act like doormats.

 

Nice guys are great. Weak guys are uninteresting but "nice guys" get a bad reputation & a negative stereotype when the phrase is used incorrectly to descibe a weak doormat guy.

[Editbee]

you dated a controlling jerk.

A ''nice guy'' is that. Many times he's a jerk in disguise.

[GemmaUK]

Many men seem to like to label themselves. I've met a few men who call themselves bad boys yet they were nothing of the sort. They tried but it was all a bit of a front and a bit/lot fake.

 

I always wonder if the nice guy bad boy thing as described by men actually means the 'I'm not the best looking and the bad boy is better looking than me' thing.

 

I think next time I'll go for someone who doesn't label himself!

Edited December 3, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Response to banned member redacted

[Woggle]

Why would any self respecting man want the kind of women that scumbags attract anyway. The scum get the trash that I don't anyway. They both deserve each other. Sure I can put these women in their place and they would probably love me for it but I don't want an overgrown daughter. I see a couple that is an an abusive and completely dysfunctional situation and I shake my head and walk by because they probably enjoy it. I enjoy sanity and peace and I have a woman that I can have that with.

[ChessPieceFace]

Boy, by your own logic the women should be beating down your door. I wonder why they aren't?

 

That's the exact opposite of what I said. Women are attracted to men who assert dominance over others. I am the opposite, and find that mindset disgusting. You don't know me IRL.

 

You know, many of us women have had bad experiences with men and still manage not to label and stereotype the whole of your gender because of it.

 

My conclusions aren't simply drawn from my own bad experiences. I see the relationships of all of those around me, divorce statistics, the media's treatment of men, the laws stacked against me. Most of the married men I know whose marriages have some amount of success are with women grounded in more traditional values. But even a lot of those men aren't particularly happy.

 

Perhaps you could try opening your worldview a little. Biology does NOT determine everything for the vast majority of us. Frankly some of us prefer the thoughtful types over the brash types.

 

Most behavior is either learned or innate. We believe ourselves to be in control of our actions, but that control is fairly limited, and more or less limited to the moment. Zoom out over the choices of a day, a month, a year, and it becomes more clear how many of our choices are behavioral rather than conscious.

 

Also, many of us women are capable of this remarkable feat called "introspection," meaning that we actually do have quite a good understanding of why we do the things we do.

 

Women believe they're capable of introspection. Most aren't. Look at the many threads with women claiming "all guys are pigs" - someone like me suggests that perhaps they're simply going after the pigs, and should re-evaluate their selection process, and the advice is always rejected. The majority of women I know IRL have either a broken or damaged selection process. Or, perhaps more accurately, their selection process is working perfectly for a Darwinian, pre-society world. For a world of animals.

 

And before you claim I'm just a blind misogynist, I don't have a high opinion of men either. Several reasons why I wouldn't complain about them though:

 

- I don't need to care, since I wouldn't date men

- I'm not like most men (I have no interest in casual sex, I believe sex should mean something)

- Mens' poor behavior has been largely curbed by society and law: government-enforced child support, punitive and biased rape/sex crime laws in which men often have to prove their innocence in the face of assumed guilt, etc. Conversely, women have been granted the power to financially (and otherwise) destroy the lives of men they get involved with.

 

You can't possibly believe that the 90%+ female bias in the child custody & child support laws hasn't been the driving force to greatly increase the divorce rate and destroy fatherhood and the nuclear family. Both men and women are selfish, but women are the ones whose selfishness is backed up by the legal system. If you can't even clearly see THAT, don't even bother claiming that you can clearly see yourself.

 

perhaps you might find your own situation improving, if you were capable of understanding that many of us have intelligence and compassion, and weren't just slavering animals responding to brain chemicals and biology.

 

I've met 2 or 3 women in my entire life about which I would definitively make the claim "this woman genuinely has compassion." Everyone else - very conditional. Often it's simply the appearance of compassion. I've concluded that most women only truly care about 3 sets of people:

 

- Themselves

- Their offspring

- Their man for only as long as that man lives up to their requirements (after which he is discarded.)

 

I have another working theory which has recently dawned on me from continued observation and thoughts about both men and women I know (including myself.) Generally, mens' compassion and empathy towards women is formed by their bond with their mother, while womens' compassion and empathy towards men is formed by their bond with their father. We have a society in which a girl's bond with her father has largely fallen by the wayside.

 

You would think that a truly good mother or grandmother would be able to teach her daughters compassion and empathy. I've found that NOT to be the case. 3/4 women in my family are complete self-centered disasters, cannot form lasting relationships with men, and are children of divorce. I'm sure that some of that is genetic, but some also comes from damage (lack of paternal bonding) in their formative years.

 

Similarly, the men in my family (including me) seem to generally have more or less success with women, depending on how much time they spent with their fathers. Why controlled by the father again? The mother-son bond fosters compassion and empathy in men, but that does men no good in the dating process (actually it works against them.)

 

In short, fatherless boys grow up to be men who have a hard time getting dates. Fatherless girls grow up to be women who have a hard time keeping relationships afloat.

 

So, OP, remember to find out whether a girl is/was close to her father (or possibly older close male relatives.) If she wasn't, and you're observant, you can usually see the damage from a mile away.

 

Now I'm curious - OP, how would you compare your bond with your mother vs. your father?

[Esoteric Elf]

Conversations as these go and back forth with no one the wiser because of one thing: what do you define as a "nice guy"?

[ThatMan]

Conversations as these go and back forth with no one the wiser because of one thing: what do you define as a "nice guy"?

I know the answer! I think... Can I guess? Let's throw out the definition of nice and slap on something different altogether. Nice guys are passive-aggressive jerks. BAM!

Do I win anything?

 

Thank god I've never described myself as nice before.

[mrnova66]

Nice guys do not finish at all. Nice/good guys give up after being screw around with head games all their lives.. Lets look at the typical DRAMA KING(drunk,drug addict,jail bird,bum,abuser) I have yet to see in my lifetime anyone of these winners single. Most are married, but never single.. Also when was the last time one of these scumbags complain about being single. You won't. There are no shortage of women that will chase after these winners. meanwhile back at the ranch when Mr. exciting done had his fun he is off to the next woman in line. And the woman that he just left is asking everyone where are all the good guys at. Well when you are in your 40s with 3 kids by 3 different scumbags it is to late to ask that question.