Do Nice Guys Finish Last?

[Zeroes]

There's nice guys and there's "nice guys". "Nice guys" are the ones that have bastardized the adjective 'nice' into something unrecognisable.

 

"Nice guy" = guy that thinks women somehow 'owe' him sex or a relationship just because he's befriended her and/or listened to her rant.

 

"Nice guy" = guy who whines about 'friendzones' and thinks a woman is a bad person if she enjoys his company but doesn't want his dick.

 

"Nice guy" = guys who are jealous of men that are better looking than they are, or who at least do better with women. many men do well with women, but the suggestion that all or most of them are "bad boy" types who are in/out of prison or deadbeats/players is simply laughable.

 

"Nice guy" = guy claims women are shallow for not liking him, while throwing himself at attractive women, who he doesn't have anything in common with. Your stereotypical "nice guy" is usually a social retard, or just an introvert or geek of some kind, but he latches onto women who are pretty much the complete opposite. Why? Because she looks good. You simply can't pull the "shallow" card if you're acting equally as "shallow" yourself - why don't these guys ever seem go for girls more on their wavelength? There's no shortage of geeky girls. They probably already work with or go to school with many of them, hell they might already even be friends.

 

Yeah, I have no sympathy for them at all. Defining yourself as a "nice guy" is a red flag IMO.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Zeroes

[GoodOnPaper]

As a life-long "nice guy", let me offer this point of view.

 

There's nice guys and there's "nice guys". "Nice guys" are the ones that have bastardized the adjective 'nice' into something unrecognisable.

 

You have to use the air quotes. It's a lot easier saying "nice guy" than "shy, introverted, nerdy, approval-seeking, overly-sensitive, overly-analytical, unassertive, awkward, feminized".

 

"Nice guy" = guy that thinks women somehow 'owe' him sex or a relationship just because he's befriended her and/or listened to her rant.

 

This is simply a misunderstanding where he sees a "connection" and she doesn't. Guys don't open up easily, and "nice guys" REALLY don't open up easily, so it's natural to think that being really comfortable with a woman will lead to something romantic. It's a cruel lesson for young "nice guys" to learn that women compartmentalize friendship and attraction just as guys compartmentalize sex and love.

 

"Nice guy" = guy who whines about 'friendzones' and thinks a woman is a bad person if she enjoys his company but doesn't want his dick.

 

Again, the compartmentalization of friendship and attraction just doesn't make sense. Plus, it's emasculating when a woman who supposedly likes you and wants to spend time with you thinks that any woman would be crazy to want anything physical with you.

 

"Nice guy" = guys who are jealous of men that are better looking than they are, or who at least do better with women. many men do well with women, but the suggestion that all or most of them are "bad boy" types who are in/out of prison or deadbeats/players is simply laughable.

 

Of course we're jealous!! Again, the air quotes are critical. "Bad boy" is just a shorthand way of describing that elusive excitement factor that "nice guys" just won't ever have.

 

"Nice guy" = guy claims women are shallow for not liking him, while throwing himself at attractive women, who he doesn't have anything in common with. Your stereotypical "nice guy" is usually a social retard, or just an introvert or geek of some kind, but he latches onto women who are pretty much the complete opposite. Why? Because she looks good.

 

So . . . we're not supposed to want an attractive partner?? There are dozens of threads on LS started by women who won't give an inch when it comes to attraction. From a more practical standpoint, when we're young, we notice what's on the surface. It's the extroverted girls that are sending out the signals that everyone can see. We think validation from those girls will solve all our self-esteem problems. Yes, it's likely a mistake to be going after these kind of girls but the "nice girls" either don't send out signals of interest or, if they are, they are directing them toward very different guys.

 

You simply can't pull the "shallow" card if you're acting equally as "shallow" yourself - why don't these guys ever seem go for girls more on their wavelength? There's no shortage of geeky girls. They probably already work with or go to school with many of them, hell they might already even be friends.

 

Back in my day, there WAS a shortage of geeky girls and most of them were intentionally looking for opposites-attract pairings with "bad boys" as discussed earlier. Fortunately, science and technology are now much more mainstream. My students' social lives -- I'm a university science professor -- seem to be MUCH more "normal" than what I and my fellow science nerds experienced.

 

Your advice has tones of "just stay in your own league" but won't that lead to settling? According to LS, that seems to be the biggest sin of all.

[GravityMan]

Weak, sissy guys finish last.

[mrnova66]

^^^^That is true^^^^Even decent guys finish last or even at all. But your typical Drunk,drug addict,bum,abuser,scumbag,dirtbag,jail birds finish first. AKA... Mr. DRAMA KING. . If a man is a scumbag,abuser,drunk,drug addict,drug dealer and has no moral backbone does not mean he cannot get a woman. These men do not complain like the decent guy. Why should he. This winner has his choice. Women are waiting for him. Personally I have yet to see one single. Most are married,but never single. This is what you call the alfafa male. Until he blow a fuse(Back in jail).. Then the woman wants a nice guy to use until the next drama king comes along.

[emva07]

I like nice guys....less drama and heartbreak. To me, bad guys finish last.

 

And yes, a lot of guys that claim they are so nice turn out to be ******* bfs too. Seen a lot of these self proclaimed "nice guys" in action and they are just as big of an ******* as the "bad boys".

 

I have to see to believe.

Edited December 4, 2013 by emva07

[Absinthe]

There's a real difference between a guy who is nice, and a Nice Guy™. I've dated the former, and I've dated the latter. I've also dated the atypical jerk, and yes it was exciting, as a first-love type thing, but then you grow and move on as a person (hopefully).

 

I had no difficulty being attracted to, and maintaining said attraction with, the guy who was nice. We lived together for two years and I was very happy. In fact, it was he who left me...for his drama addict ex-girlfriend!

 

The first boyfriend I ever had at 16 was a Nice Guy™. He had a real attitude about him of "people don't like me because I'm a Trekkie / they're sports-loving idiots / I am a geek and therefore automatically intellectually superior". It soon became apparent that people didn't like him because he was a spiteful piece of work. After we broke up (I initiated it), he sent me a long, unwarranted email telling me how amazing his new girlfriend was compared to me. I didn't care, but I certainly had a good chuckle.

 

In fact I have seen the same traits in women - if you've ever met a girl who has trotted out the "Sometimes I'm too nice for my own good!" line, chances are she's, well, Nice™.

[emva07]

There's a real difference between a guy who is nice, and a Nice Guy™. I've dated the former, and I've dated the latter. I've also dated the atypical jerk, and yes it was exciting, as a first-love type thing, but then you grow and move on as a person (hopefully).

 

I had no difficulty being attracted to, and maintaining said attraction with, the guy who was nice. We lived together for two years and I was very happy. In fact, it was he who left me...for his drama addict ex-girlfriend!

 

The first boyfriend I ever had at 16 was a Nice Guy™. He had a real attitude about him of "people don't like me because I'm a Trekkie / they're sports-loving idiots / I am a geek and therefore automatically intellectually superior". It soon became apparent that people didn't like him because he was a spiteful piece of work. After we broke up (I initiated it), he sent me a long, unwarranted email telling me how amazing his new girlfriend was compared to me. I didn't care, but I certainly had a good chuckle.

 

In fact I have seen the same traits in women - if you've ever met a girl who has trotted out the "Sometimes I'm too nice for my own good!" line, chances are she's, well, Nice™.

 

yes, a lot of "nerdy" guys, trekkies, gamers, etc etc automatically think that that puts them under the "nice guy" tent, which in reality it doesn't, that just means he doesn't get as many girls because of other reasons but goes for the "nice guy" excuse because they are shy and introverts.

My cousin was with one of these, he was a moocher *******, who was cheating and he was super mean to her.

 

Yes, about girls, there are also the holier than thou ones who go around saying "i'm not like that" but they are exactly "like that" and MORE.

[carhill]

Do Nice Guys Finish Last?

I was watching a video the other day and one girl said that the biggest turn off was if the guy was too nice. She was early 20s (20-22).

 

At that age, most likely and it was as normal in my generation as it is now. Don't worry about it. People grow and change and aspects of attraction and love change with that journey. Warning: For some people, 'nice' is not a language they understand, and won't ever, so those folks will be incompatible for life for someone who is 'nice'. Fortunately, they understand this better as they age so end dynamics that turn them off more quickly and decisively.

 

For purposes of this post, 'nice' is defined as follows:

 

"nice

 

adjective \ˈnīs\

: giving pleasure or joy : good and enjoyable

 

: attractive or of good quality

 

: kind, polite, and friendly"

[hotpotato]

Women lose more in the long run from divorce. The financially dependent spouse gets an initial payout, but over the years, she's worse off. By the way, is no-fault divorce attributed to feminism??

 

 

OP will find real relationships if he wants them.

 

Feminists and republican patron saint Ron Reagan, but that's for another thread! Reagan did more to popularize no fault divorce than feminists.

 

Divorce hurts women a lot in the long run especially if they don't remarry soon. People forget that you cant get blood from a stone. Most men don't even have a lot of assets that can be split.

 

Anyway, both divorced parties tend to suffer. The guy hurts from paying her. She hurts because she's got kids and payments are not enough, or she hurts when he doesn't pay at all. In short, divorce sucks!

[hotpotato]

Conversations as these go and back forth with no one the wiser because of one thing: what do you define as a "nice guy"?

 

Exactly, let's get a definition!

 

I haven't met many nice guys. Most guys will be nice when they want to have sex with you. To me, nice is being kind without expecting something in return. To me nice is being there and helping someone for their benefit not your own benefit. There was a guy who changed my tired when I had a flat tire and expected nothing in return. That was nice!

[MissBee]

I was watching a video the other day and one girl said that the biggest turn off was if the guy was too nice. She was early 20s (20-22). It disappointed me because I would consider myself a nice guy. I know that there are some a-holes that do get girls and don't treat them right and that works for them, but thats not me. When I do meet new people, I try to be nice and then once I get to know them and are comfortable then I start to tease them and start to push their buttons a little (all in good fun with good intent). Ive always thought that I might not be the guy for them right now, but rather a long term investment that will pay off later down the road. I am curious as I start to go out into the dating world how things look for nice guys, especially someone in their early 20s. I anticipate that it might be a struggle, but I would like some feedback from those who are out there and experience it to give their thoughts.

 

I don't think when a woman says a man is "too nice" she means all men who are upstanding decent men, what it means is too nice in the sense that this man seems like a push-over, door mat, yes-man, ready to please with little of his own opinions, isn't assertive etc. There are women who are "too nice" as well, i.e. they are very passive and willing to please and really care a lot about being liked over being true to themselves. It's usually a self-esteem thing where they are very concerned about being liked so have this weird extra "nice" way about them that one can tell is not really genuine but comes from that place of low self-esteem.

 

I think that is what many women mean when they say they are turned off by a man who is "too nice." It is NOT about desiring a-holes and poor treatment and not appreciating good men, it is about wanting a good man who is not passive and overly "nice" in the sense that he seems to never want to rock the boat so always seems to be very agreeable in a way that is unattractive. Men who are good guys and nice guys don't finish last unless they are the type of "nice" that is a code word for passive, yes-men, cares more about being liked than being true to himself, has no opinions etc.

Edited December 4, 2013 by MissBee

[hotpotato]

I think this is what he is talking about.

 

I dont hang around guys unless Im interested in them sexually. Problem solved!

 

I'd rather have little or no interaction with men, then to have a so called friendship which is really a transactional relationship- i'll be nice to you, then you come here and sex me.

 

No thanks.

[emva07]

I dont hang around guys unless Im interested in them sexually. Problem solved!

 

I'd rather have little or no interaction with men, then to have a so called friendship which is really a transactional relationship- i'll be nice to you, then you come here and sex me.

 

No thanks.

 

lol, in my case it was an ego boost friendship on his part. No sex transaction, but lusting over me but making me believe he didn't was good enough.

[MissBee]

There is also the "Nice Guy" type of guy as someone else mentioned, who is ANNOYING! This guy is actually an ass who is very entitled and thinks he is sooo nice and complains incessantly about getting the short end of the stick although he is just so wonderful and women just love douches and can't appreciate him:confused:

 

...when in reality he is very weird and pushy, often manipulative and he is the only one talking about his alleged "niceness" as it remains to be seen by anyone but him and he thinks nice is a token to be exchanged for sex or women's company. Ughhhh gag me please!

 

Those guys finish last...as they should.

[hotpotato]

There is also the "Nice Guy" type of guy as someone else mentioned, who is ANNOYING! This guy is actually an ass who is very entitled and thinks he is sooo nice and complains incessantly about getting the short end of the stick although he is just so wonderful and women just love douches and can't appreciate him:confused:

 

...when in reality he is very weird and pushy, often manipulative and he is the only one talking about his alleged "niceness" as it remains to be seen by anyone but him and he thinks nice is a token to be exchanged for sex or women's company. Ughhhh gag me please!

 

Those guys finish last...as they should.

 

Exactly.

 

I think it would be less disgusting if he just flat out asked for sex and skipped the pretenses. That way I can say yes or no, and he can move on to someone else if need be. :sick:

[MissBee]

Exactly.

 

I think it would be less disgusting if he just flat out asked for sex and skipped the pretenses. That way I can say yes or no, and he can move on to someone else if need be. :sick:

 

Ditto!

[Elliotte]

I think way too often people equate "nice guy" with "doormat". A lot of "nice guys" are the types who are quiet, low on confidence, way too accommodating, and put others before themselves way too often. Whereas the "*******s" have confidence, and put themselves first, which means they get what they want more often than a doormat.

 

In my experience, you can pick positive traits from both extremes, be a nice guy and do just fine getting dates. Balance is good.

[GoodOnPaper]

Exactly.

 

I think it would be less disgusting if he just flat out asked for sex and skipped the pretenses. That way I can say yes or no, and he can move on to someone else if need be. :sick:

 

I think more would if that was a viable option. I always figured that a guy had to be EXTREMELY good looking to pull that off.

[hotpotato]

I think more would if that was a viable option. I always figured that a guy had to be EXTREMELY good looking to pull that off.

 

At least with myself, either I was attracted to a man or wasn't. No amount of him hanging around and being 'nice' changes things.

 

He might get rejected, but at least he's not wasted his time or mine.

[GoodOnPaper]

At least with myself, either I was attracted to a man or wasn't. No amount of him hanging around and being 'nice' changes things.

 

He might get rejected, but at least he's not wasted his time or mine.

 

Sure, but we're talking about guys who are likely aware that they aren't going to generate instant attraction from anyone. So such guys could easily like the miniscule chance they think they would have by hanging around.

 

Besides, what "nice guys" are really trying to do with the hang-around-and-be-nice routine is set themselves apart from the "jerks" that women complain about. It short-circuits our brains when we first learn that the same advice for approaching women -- basically, be confident and assertive -- should work for both the introverted, nerdy, sensitive guy and the stereotypical "bad boy" alpha-male because we are opposite types of guys. Instead, our (mistaken) line of thinking is if the bad-boy jerk is forwardly direct when trying to get dates and sex, then there is no way we could pull that off because we don't have the same looks, charisma, or general sex appeal. So we try to be opposite.

 

Ultimately, the OP needs to come to terms with whether he's accepting of himself as someone who doesn't want to be a player and pursue lasting relationships instead. If so, he just has to prepare himself to deal with the overwhelming number of girls his age who treat dating and sex like the kid-in-a-candy-store situation that they are in. If he can persevere through that, maybe he can be nice without it working against him.

[BOREDouttaMymind]

not last. they get there, just slower than the jerks.

 

yes, if there were two guys standing in front of a girl, and the girl asked them both to grab her a pillow..

 

..if the nice guy said "oh man! let me go get that for you!"

 

..and the jerk guy said "ya right, get it yourself dork"..

 

..chances are.. shed be intrigued by the jerk. why?

 

..theres no mystery with the nice guy. she got what she wanted. whats she supposed to do then?

 

Get it?

[Taramere]

I was watching a video the other day and one girl said that the biggest turn off was if the guy was too nice. She was early 20s (20-22). It disappointed me because I would consider myself a nice guy. I know that there are some a-holes that do get girls and don't treat them right and that works for them, but thats not me. When I do meet new people, I try to be nice and then once I get to know them and are comfortable then I start to tease them and start to push their buttons a little (all in good fun with good intent). Ive always thought that I might not be the guy for them right now, but rather a long term investment that will pay off later down the road. I am curious as I start to go out into the dating world how things look for nice guys, especially someone in their early 20s. I anticipate that it might be a struggle, but I would like some feedback from those who are out there and experience it to give their thoughts.

 

It's like when you start a new job. Occasionally you slot in so well that you're involved in banter with workmates almost from the beginning. Other times, you keep your head down for the first couple of weeks and gradually develop more comfortable, informal relationships. I wouldn't describe either approach as being "nice" so much as just being fairly normal and well socialised. So I can't see what would be wrong with the way you say you deal with social situations - other than that since you define yourself as "Shy Guy" being sociable probably requires that bit more effort for you than it would for an extrovert.

 

I think when people are talking about "too nice" and "nice guys finish last" something else is at play. "Nice" becomes the acceptable face of "co-dependent" or "inverted narcissism". Wanting to be liked becomes of paramount importance, even if it means losing your self (or your self respect) in the process. In a nutshell, being nice to people who aren't treating you respectfully.

 

That kind of niceness is unattractive because it's too closely associated with fear. Fear of not being liked. Fear of losing friends (who aren't real friends). You might have heard people say, before, that those at the bottom rung of society regard manners as a weakness. It's true...they often do. I think they probably associate manners with ass-kissing, fakeness etc.

 

Often that's exactly why they're stuck at the bottom rung. They're the bad guys who finished last. I mean yes, you might hear of some of them being sexually successful - and if that's your main focus then they might seem like kings regardless of their life circumstances. And yes, women may well enjoy their "refusing to kiss anybody's ass" approach to life...because it is pretty appealing. However the fact remains that most people with that attitude pay a high price for it one way or another. Certainly you get a minority who succeed despite their bad attitude, and others will tend to focus on those success story bad guys, but I do think they're the exception rather than the rule. Unless you're in the difficult teen years, when life tends to be pretty dysfunctional generally and for all your peers too.

 

So like everybody else, you have your conflict and you have to deal with it as best as you can. The conflict between being nice enough to be welcome in pretty much any social (or professional) situation, but being able to lay down boundaries with other people who perceive your niceness as weakness and attempt to exploit it.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Taramere

[crederer]

I'm certainly not a shy or quiet type of guy, but I'm constantly told how "nice" I am. it seems to work in the short term for me but it apparently gets tired over time.

 

Oh well, I can't really help it (in the long term, anyway). I'll eventually find someone who appreciates it.

[hotpotato]

Sure, but we're talking about guys who are likely aware that they aren't going to generate instant attraction from anyone. So such guys could easily like the miniscule chance they think they would have by hanging around.

 

I think it hanging around works with some women. The problem for a guy is which ones.

 

Besides, what "nice guys" are really trying to do with the hang-around-and-be-nice routine is set themselves apart from the "jerks" that women complain about. It short-circuits our brains when we first learn that the same advice for approaching women -- basically, be confident and assertive -- should work for both the introverted, nerdy, sensitive guy and the stereotypical "bad boy" alpha-male because we are opposite types of guys. Instead, our (mistaken) line of thinking is if the bad-boy jerk is forwardly direct when trying to get dates and sex, then there is no way we could pull that off because we don't have the same looks, charisma, or general sex appeal. So we try to be opposite.

 

Well, jerks are aggressive but nice guys are passive aggresive then flat out aggressive when things dont go their way. The average nice guy is controlling, manipulative, and sometimes just flat out MEAN.

 

Nice guys are some of the worst guys to date!

[travelonic]

Do nice guys finish last?

 

IMO, it is impossible to answer, given how ambiguous the term actually is - there are definitions in many sources - and in this thread alone - ones that define it as someone who is a doormat, ones that give the definition as somebody who is genuinely nice but somebody who doesn't take shenanigans, ones that cover people who *act* nice.... how the hell can we answer it when it seems to hard to find a standardized definition of one that logically makes sense?