Is this typical? I'm a jerk, right?

[moving2fast]

None taken, I'm really trying to reflect on things, so I find that interesting. Never gave it much thought before this.

 

I can tell from feedback on this thread that I'm not on the right side of things.

 

I can't view sex the way you're saying some people do. I wouldn't give the action such power. It to me just is there so someone can feel good, or more than one person can. Really wouldn't be able to function if it was more than that.

 

There's nothing now that I could tell, do or share with anyone that would hurt me if told to someone that doesn't like me. I don't let anyone have that type of power over me anymore. Like, if he told his wife that my daddy used to have sex with me and I lost my real virginity at the age of 8(not counting all we did before that) I wouldn't care. Or if someone told another person about my anorexia, drug use, dislike of my physical form or silly little things I aspired to be, it wouldn't hurt me.

 

I understand that those are my sentiments, but I don't get why it would bother anyone, but I know it does and am trying to be more understanding. I don't like that it does, so I'm trying here. His wife is the first one to approach me and that's because this whole situation has been abnormal for us all.

 

Big deals to me are more work related. Nothing personal.

[LBlanc]

(((moving2fast))) hugs:(

 

...I am really sorry how you end up were you are OP...I have met people with similar psychological make up like yours during my earlier volunteer work (I'm in the legal profession...but not in the US) and I can understand a little of why you feel and think the way you do.

 

...all I can say is MM took advantage of you; so don't feel bad about hurting him...just stay away from him ...

 

...and please, please think about IC in the near future or go seek help from a church...they can help you a lot better than this site...

[rumbleseat]

None taken, I'm really trying to reflect on things, so I find that interesting. Never gave it much thought before this.

 

I can tell from feedback on this thread that I'm not on the right side of things.

 

I can't view sex the way you're saying some people do. I wouldn't give the action such power. It to me just is there so someone can feel good, or more than one person can. Really wouldn't be able to function if it was more than that.

 

There's nothing now that I could tell, do or share with anyone that would hurt me if told to someone that doesn't like me. I don't let anyone have that type of power over me anymore. Like, if he told his wife that my daddy used to have sex with me and I lost my real virginity at the age of 8(not counting all we did before that) I wouldn't care. Or if someone told another person about my anorexia, drug use, dislike of my physical form or silly little things I aspired to be, it wouldn't hurt me.

 

I understand that those are my sentiments, but I don't get why it would bother anyone, but I know it does and am trying to be more understanding. I don't like that it does, so I'm trying here. His wife is the first one to approach me and that's because this whole situation has been abnormal for us all.

 

Big deals to me are more work related. Nothing personal.

 

This is just so sad. It doesn't sound like you put much value on yourself. It sounds like part of you is still a little girl who thinks that if you don't emotionally invest in something, you won't be hurt.

 

It seems as if this mm, on some level, senses that. He is using you to meet his needs and doesn't 't care if it hurts you. Love, shove. If he loved you, he wouldn't be treating you this way.

 

My dear, you really are worth so much more than this. I knOw being tough and strong and shutting off your emotions helped you through some terrible times, but that same defence mechanism is holding you back from an awful lot of wonderful experiences and deep connections with other human beings. It seems that part of you craves that, yet by not getting too close, you are keeping that from happening.

 

It sounds like are probably quite attractive physically, you are in strict control over your life and emotions, and way down deep, you really do care. I know it's hard and it hurts, but demolishing some of these walls that protect you will allow you to feel real joy, love and a connection to another human being that's based on more than just sex.

 

It also sounds as if you have been wounded, and those wounds run really deep. I know you said that therapy isn't really of interest to you right now, but would you consider joining a forum or, better still, a live support group for adult survivors of sexual abuse? Not having been through everything you have been through, I can't do much more than empathize, and I'd like to think that you were able to find people to talk to who know how you feel because they have been there themselves and have no ulterior motive than a desire to help.

 

Would you consider that, even if you aren't ready for therapy?

[John-Dough]

@WrinkledForehead, how am I using him? I don't let him spend money on me, I don't tell him I love him the way he loves me(I tell him not to say that). is it because I spent time and opened up to him? He was a friend.

 

I don't know if using him is the right word, but have you told him that you don't love him, you never will love him and you only would ever view him as a friend?

 

Of course he might not believe it. But, that's not your problem.

[Speakingofwhich]

moving2fast, I'm so sorry to read about the things that were done to you when you were a little girl. If you aren't ready for IC then why not join a church? Find one you feel comfortable in. There are all types of churches out there. Some that aren't so stuffy, anymore. Find one of those. Talk to the pastor and find out who some of the women leaders in the church are and get to know them.

 

Also, have you ever had a Bible? If not, buy one of the newer translations, the New International Version, New American Standard Bible or New King James. If you begin reading in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to learn about Jesus Christ you will begin to heal.

 

I have had a lot of healing in my own life just by reading the Bible and praying.

 

I don't know what you know about Jesus Christ but when He walked this earth He healed people physically and emotionally. The Bible teaches this.

 

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John tell about the miracles Jesus performed on this earth. Many of the miracles were miracles of physical and emotional healing. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus often touched a person physically to heal them.

 

But, in the book of John, the last book that told about the life of Jesus before He was crucified He didn't ever touch people to heal them. He healed them by speaking His word. The reason for this was so that people would know after He left this earth that His word (the Bible) is as powerful as His touch is to heal.

 

You need healing, moving2fast. Most of us do need healing of some sort or the other. Please consider getting a Bible and reading just a little each day. Give it a try! You'll be amazed at how it will change your life for the better.

[rumbleseat]

If religion isn't something that brings you comfort. there are still many places where you can go to talk to people who understand what you have been through and they will be happy to help. Don't live your life without knowing a strong emotional connection to others that goes beyond casual friendship. Don't let the people who have hurt you in the past keep hurting you by robbing you of the chance to know that closeness and trust in another person.

[John-Dough]

Maybe he is really more in love with your lifestyle - group sex, etc.

 

It's not for me, but obviously it is for some people.

[moving2fast]

LBlanc, thank you for the hugs and understanding.

 

 

rumbleseat and Speakingofwhich, I really do appreciate the advice and kind words. I just wonder if going into a support group to address the past is really something I can invest in right now. I don't want to not be able to do my job. This whole situation is really causing more thought than I actually thought it would require.

 

 

Speakingofwhich, you really are kind. I can say that religion wasn't something I was into, but will think about. I don't know how churches work, but maybe someday I will find courage to walk into one(I just don't want to be judged). I will take you up on reading.

 

 

John-Dough, I told him I love him as a friend. I say I couldn't love anyone. I mean that. As far as the group things go, yeah he enjoyed that. He said he wanted to do things before, but hadn't until he met me. So, there was never any need for him to say he loves me.

 

 

Exxtasis0ntheW1ng, So far I'm leaving him alone. It's just a conflict(when he does contact me) because I have seen him as a friend. I do not want to hurt anyone, and I wanted this to stop in the beginning not because it was going to hurt his wife(I hadn't seen it as a real issue until she actually contacted me) but because we were getting too close. I wanted someone I could either just talk to the way we were talking, or just hook up. It's hard to properly explain on here.

 

 

So, when I tried to pull away for it being "wrong," it was because I never got that close to anyone before. I don't feel guilty for having sex with him or any of the things we did together. I just feel bad that his wife is hurting and he's talking about leaving her and running with me. Makes me feel bad because I want them together/all happy. I also feel bad because I wouldn't be with him that way, I've said it, he just thinks he can change things. I don't want to seem like I'm abandoning him. I can see why people are suggesting therapy, and I appreciate the care, I just don't feel ready or really worth it.

 

 

I know it may seem like he was taking advantage, but I don't see it that way. I do wonder if he would have met someone else and done things outside of his marriage, if he was even looking for someone the night we met. Maybe I sucked him into my craziness and he never would have done any of it had we not met. If that was the case, why wait so long to do things with me? He and I have similar backgrounds, so we got along very well, and I saw him as the closest friend I ever had. Nothing bad or exploitative.

 

 

It shouldn't be really important to me anymore but this stuff is still nagging at me. I can't ask him. I mean, I would, but I'm trying to be respectful and not cause anymore pain. I have been good and not answered texts last night and ahhh...I'm feeling bad about that.

[rumbleseat]

You are worth so much more than this. You are worth the therapy and whatever else it would take for you to be happy with, and proud of, yourself.

 

You are more than worth the investment it would take. You deserve happiness...the real kind, which doesn't come at the expense of someone else.

 

I know I can tell you you are worth it, and really believe it (which I do), but you need to believe it yourself.

 

What are the great things about you that have nothing to do with sex? It sounds like you can be a really good friend, are a great listener, are kind, compassionate, attractive (not just physically) plus a whole lot more. What would your list be for yourself?

[moving2fast]

 

What are the great things about you that have nothing to do with sex? It sounds like you can be a really good friend, are a great listener, are kind, compassionate, attractive (not just physically) plus a whole lot more. What would your list be for yourself?

 

 

That's a very difficult question for me to answer. I don't have any real skills or talents outside of that, I keep a clean house and know how to cook, but that's a waste because no one is eating it.

 

Thank you for the compliments. I tend to be really negative when it comes to describing myself.

[Speakingofwhich]

rumbleseat and Speakingofwhich, I really do appreciate the advice and kind words. I just wonder if going into a support group to address the past is really something I can invest in right now. I don't want to not be able to do my job. This whole situation is really causing more thought than I actually thought it would require.

 

 

Speakingofwhich, you really are kind. I can say that religion wasn't something I was into, but will think about. I don't know how churches work, but maybe someday I will find courage to walk into one(I just don't want to be judged). I will take you up on reading.

 

((((moving2fast))))

 

I'm not much into religion, myself, either, actually. Back in the day when Christ walked the earth He wasn't much into religion, either.

 

You'll be amazed at what you'll find out about who God is that you didn't know when you read the Bible for yourself, rather than listening to other people's versions of who God is and what He expects. Or than just imagining what He must be like.

 

It is He who has given you incredible gifts, two of which are your very healthy intellect and your intuitive and sensitive nature.

 

As to everything else, your work is cut out for you, Girl! At some point you may want to get with a therapist! But, it's going to be so much more interesting to get in there and work at making your life better rather than going with the flow of "if it feels good do it."

[SincereOnlineGuy]

We met innocently one day while I was out at a bar and hit it off as friends. Now, from our first interaction, he shared he was married and we were just talking in a friendly manner. We exchanged emails and said we'd keep in touch.

 

As friends we would email about once a week to each other the first month, just sharing things about ourselves, our interests in certain teams, shows we were into, random innocent stuff. After about a month of that we exchanged numbers and met for lunch as friends. I'd pay for my stuff no flirting, but we would compliment each other but nothing crossing the line. We were simply friends.

 

He would tell me about his family, I'd share about mine(I'm not married,away from family) . We started sharing really personal stuff after about three months of being pals

 

 

This is absurd. You were never mere "friends", for such a man would have zero interest in mere friendship with you had he not wanted to get into your pants.

 

So any equation about the evolution simply must begin with your knowing what he wanted from the outset. Had it all been in the interest of mere friendship you would have connected with one another on Pinterest and that would have been that.

 

 

Obviously, for his being the married one, he was responsible both for his own actions and his own marriage, but you are not exactly innocent in this, where it concerns any regard for the relationships of others.

[rumbleseat]

That's a very difficult question for me to answer. I don't have any real skills or talents outside of that, I keep a clean house and know how to cook, but that's a waste because no one is eating it.

 

Thank you for the compliments. I tend to be really negative when it comes to describing myself.

 

They aren't so much compliments as they are facts. As another poster said, you are intelligent, you seem to a a great listener and thinker, and I've always found that people who like to cook have a creative talent. Your clean house would indicate that you like order and organization.

 

Add all your good points together, and it seems to make up one pretty great package. I just wish you could see that.

 

 

I hope you don't think I'm being condescending, but is see some of my own daughter in you. She has some issues, and was bullied and even physically assaulted because of them. Even people she thought were her friends turned on her and joined in. She suffered so much, and we didn't know (it happened at school or on her way home). She ended up in crisis, and we are working with her to try and help her find her way back. Like you, she seems to see little about herself that is praiseworthy, when's the reality is, like you, she has so much to offer and has so much good about her. Right now, she's shut down and doesn't want to let anyone in, incase they hurt her too. She doesn't really trust anyone.

 

Does this sound a bit like you?

[moving2fast]

SincereOnlineguy, if his intent from the start was to have sex with me, why bother telling me anything about his martial status, why not just hit on me in the bar, and why wait so long to actually have sex with me. I would have been fine with it, and he knew that. We really were friends. That's why during some lunches and get- togethers his wife was present. I wasn't some secret, she had my number too. So, why would I think automatically he wanted sex? I used to people being upfront about that.

 

Speakingofwhich, thank you, I'm just worried about how everything may change if I do try therapy. I am alone, work is a big chunk of my life, like its what I put much of my focusing on( making sure I look decent, remain a certain size) I don't want to not be able to do my job, because there's nothing else I can really do. I don't want to go backwards. If I had a fallback/support I would be more willing to do therapy. But I will be reading, that I look forward to, thanks to your posts.

[moving2fast]

rumbleseat, I honestly haven't considered myself to be intelligent or any of the other traits noted. I would hear, "stupid, hard-headed, no good, worthless, ugly" the list goes on but I don't like using bad words unless I'm told to. I wonder if I am creative, I had to clean up and cook, from a young age and those habits stayed with me.

 

I am sorry to hear about your daughter. I would have done anything to have friends, and she deserves happiness, glad she has a family that cares and loves her. And I didn't take your tone as condescending in the least. I appreciate it, really.

 

I do hear myself in that. I don't trust people. I feel as though I made a mistake here in allowing someone to get close to me( though I didn't expect anything but don't like for people to get past certain barriers). I don't want anyone to be able to hurt me. I don't expect anything from anyone. If I needed someone he/she wouldn't be around so I don't even bother. I won't let anyone let me down.

[Speakingofwhich]

[quote=moving2fast;5393253

Speakingofwhich, thank you, I'm just worried about how everything may change if I do try therapy. I am alone, work is a big chunk of my life, like its what I put much of my focusing on( making sure I look decent, remain a certain size) I don't want to not be able to do my job, because there's nothing else I can really do. I don't want to go backwards. If I had a fallback/support I would be more willing to do therapy. But I will be reading, that I look forward to, thanks to your posts.

 

Right, don't be concerned about therapy at this point. But do get into the reading!

 

At one time I was like you in that I really didn't have anything I could do to make a living. I had no family; nowhere to turn. I had two little children to rear on my own and an XH who was a maniac (:)yeah, he was) and intent on destroying me and my children. The word got back to me that people were saying, "She's not gonna make it," as the outlook for me was gloomy.

 

But, I started "reading" and asking God for help and when I did that an incredible career developed (slowly at first) for me. It was God's plan for me and when I began to know Him and ask Him for help He was able to make it happen. All I had to do was walk through open doors that were a little scary at times and work hard.

 

It has gained me great respect where I live and in cities I don't live in.

 

If God can do it for me He can do it for you!

 

Listen, friend! The work God has for you will bring respect into your life. The Bible says that if you do your work well you will stand before kings. And I have stood before some of the leaders (kings) of my community, my state, and of my country because of God's grace and His ability to make it happen. I'm only boasting in what God can do so that you will know He can make a difference for you, too. Without Him I would have probably done very little with my life. He has been everything to me.

 

Don't know His plan for you, but He has something for you to do that you're gonna like a whole lot better than what you're doing!

 

I have one more thing to say to you, moving2fast. It is God's great delight to take someone who expects nothing of this life and of whom folks expect nothing, to mold that person and shape them into a force for good! To bless their life and to enable her/him to accomplish great things!

 

There is a book I wish you could find. It's out of print but perhaps you can find it used online. Idk. Besides the Bible, it was pivotal for me when things looked really bad. The book is called, God Sent a Man, and is written by the late Carlyle B. Haynes. It is the true story of a man whose family turned on him and tried to murder him. Though he survived and began a career and was doing well someone testified against him falsely and he did time in prison. Still, God brought him out and he lived a life of greatness after that. It brought me great courage and inspiration at a time when it seemed there was nothing to be inspired about!

[John-Dough]

John-Dough, I told him I love him as a friend. I say I couldn't love anyone. I mean that. As far as the group things go, yeah he enjoyed that. He said he wanted to do things before, but hadn't until he met me. So, there was never any need for him to say he loves me.

 

You probably should have just said you consider him a good friend, but you are not in love with him and never will be. Instead of saying that you love him as a friend and also that you can't love anyone.

 

He probably thinks he can change that. It's too late now to say otherwise, but in the future you may want to think about rewording that so there are no misinterpretations. Just a thought.

[ThatsJustHowIRoll]

. I am alone, work is a big chunk of my life, like its what I put much of my focusing on( making sure I look decent, remain a certain size) I don't want to not be able to do my job, because there's nothing else I can really do. I don't want to go backwards. If I had a fallback/support I would be more willing to do therapy. But I will be reading, that I look forward to, thanks to your posts.

 

There is heaps you can do. You just have to choose it.

 

Your 'career' has a finite life. You cant do it forever. What's your exit plan?

 

Focus on this. It will give you direction.

[rumbleseat]

Like I tell my daughter, trusting doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. She can trust some people without trusting everyone.

 

It sounds like, on some level, you really are torn. part of you desperately wants a human connection, while another part desperately wants to protect yourself. It's kind of a catch 22, in that the desperation can make a person pick the absolutely wrong person to form that connection with, and when it goes bad, it reinforces the need to protect oneslef.

 

There really is so much more good in you that what you see yourself. Look at it this way...a bunch of strangers on the internet can see it, I just hope you can too.

[moving2fast]

Speakingofwhich, your posts are very inspirational, and I will be searching for that book as well. I do very much enjoy reading while alone, so thank you. You've come a long way, maybe I will manage to make something of myself besides what I am right now.

 

 

John-Dough, yeah, I must have chosen a poor choice of words in trying to describe things to him. I didn't mean to seem as if there was a future between us, but really he's like the closest I've ever allowed myself to be with another person, so I didn't want to minimize that, but I didn't want to make it a big deal either.

 

 

ThatsJustHowIRoll, the thought of not my career ending, scares me very much. I know it will, I know I cannot do this forever and soon enough I will no longer be needed. I just don't know what I will do. I really haven't managed money well, blew a lot of it on simple pleasure and still don't save like I should just in case something were to happen soon. I don't know what I could do besides go back to what I used to do and if I couldn't do that, then I really would be stuck. I haven't really thought much about my future, used to just have to want to be around in the moment, now that I'm okay with being here, I'm just getting by, didn't think I'd be here. The future is so very scary, being alone, couldn't see a regular job hiring me, couldn't see myself able to really carry on in another work setting.

 

 

rumbleseat, my goodness, that second paragraph is the sentiment I have in regards to connecting with another. I do want to be close to another, being alone like this is awful, but I would rather that than be hurt as I have been. I just don't put expectations on people, so I can say and share whatever with that person and none of it will hurt me because I know I can't rely on the person from the start. Even with this MM, I didn't expect anything, we got closer than I ever intended on being, but that doesn't hurt me, I knew I'd never have him(didn't want him) and that I'm better off alone. Thank you, I find myself wanting to say that you all have me wrong, that I'm a horrid person who deserves nothing, but I really would like to believe it. Life would probably be a lot different if I did.

[rumbleseat]

Speakingofwhich, your posts are very inspirational, and I will be searching for that book as well. I do very much enjoy reading while alone, so thank you. You've come a long way, maybe I will manage to make something of myself besides what I am right now.

 

 

John-Dough, yeah, I must have chosen a poor choice of words in trying to describe things to him. I didn't mean to seem as if there was a future between us, but really he's like the closest I've ever allowed myself to be with another person, so I didn't want to minimize that, but I didn't want to make it a big deal either.

 

 

ThatsJustHowIRoll, the thought of not my career ending, scares me very much. I know it will, I know I cannot do this forever and soon enough I will no longer be needed. I just don't know what I will do. I really haven't managed money well, blew a lot of it on simple pleasure and still don't save like I should just in case something were to happen soon. I don't know what I could do besides go back to what I used to do and if I couldn't do that, then I really would be stuck. I haven't really thought much about my future, used to just have to want to be around in the moment, now that I'm okay with being here, I'm just getting by, didn't think I'd be here. The future is so very scary, being alone, couldn't see a regular job hiring me, couldn't see myself able to really carry on in another work setting.

 

 

rumbleseat, my goodness, that second paragraph is the sentiment I have in regards to connecting with another. I do want to be close to another, being alone like this is awful, but I would rather that than be hurt as I have been. I just don't put expectations on people, so I can say and share whatever with that person and none of it will hurt me because I know I can't rely on the person from the start. Even with this MM, I didn't expect anything, we got closer than I ever intended on being, but that doesn't hurt me, I knew I'd never have him(didn't want him) and that I'm better off alone. Thank you, I find myself wanting to say that you all have me wrong, that I'm a horrid person who deserves nothing, but I really would like to believe it. Life would probably be a lot different if I did.

 

 

 

Have you tried taking "baby steps" and opening up, even just a little bit, to someone else? Maybe just a platonic friendship? You have so much to offer, aside of sex, that I'm really sure there are people who would really value your friendship beyond just what you can do for them.

 

About being worried about your job someday ending and having nothing to fall back on-What about taking a few classes at a local college or something similar? Try some new things and see where your interests lie. Is there any field that you are really drawn to and that you could see yourself doing and enjoying, maybe even making a full time career out of it?

[moving2fast]

I've tried opening up to people in the past. I don't mind sharing things about myself. The last female that I shared stuff with ended up moving and we lost touch. I have a few but some are drifting a bit because they don't want to get into the things I'm into. Most guys start off okay then either avoid me after learning about what I do(some women too) or end up just becoming physical with me, at which point I really don't share much. No one ever really sticks around. I am an open book though, I like having friends.

 

 

I have wondered about taking classes, I miss that. I would have to alter certain habits to be a productive student. I would have to really think about what I would like to learn. I wouldn't want to waste time/money. It's scary. I have to really think about it. I haven't seen myself really as anything but what I am. If anything, I can clean houses or something. I know I can do that well.

 

 

So, I haven't been answering the phone, and there are five voicemails from him today. He said in one that he's going to be headed to a hotel and really wants to see me, that he misses me and can't stop thinking about me, asks if I'm okay. Felling cruddy for not answering, made sure I've been busy with other people lately so I'm not lonely, but I miss our conversations.

[ThatsJustHowIRoll]

You need to work with someone to come up with your long term exit startegy. You are definitely not ready now, but the idea is to get you ready. The poeple you work for will dump you mercilessly when they have no use for you, and you are worth more than that.

 

Classes are a great idea to get you out into the real world. Your perception od reality is very skewed and you need to start taking some baby steps to learn the difference. You wont be able to move on without professional help.

 

Also, please be wary of people who like you for the lifestyle you can offer, rather than the person you are.

 

And finally. Block his number. no more calls, voicemails or texts. His intention is clear when he asks to meet at a hotel rather than for coffee or in a park. He doesnt want to 'talk'.

 

Good luck OP.

[Speakingofwhich]

Speakingofwhich, your posts are very inspirational, and I will be searching for that book as well. I do very much enjoy reading while alone, so thank you. You've come a long way, maybe I will manage to make something of myself besides what I am right now.

 

 

Aha! You're a reader! And it shows in your posts which are thoughtful and well constructed.

 

I do hope you'll look into taking some classes. Seems this would be a good time to do it while you're still single and don't have kids to be concerned about.

 

And, if my posts are inspirational, then I'm thankful! God loves you more than you can imagine and wants you to be encouraged and inspired!

[HeSh_tTheBed]

I wonder if you could do an experiment and flip the script a little and say, instead of "I am extremely detached" that "I am very attached to an idea of love but it has been made utterly mysteriously to me through no fault of my own, in childhood, and so I am left with this burning hunger which makes me do stuff I feel I have no control over."

 

Lots of us Affair folks suffer from The Hunger. We don't really have any control over it and have adapted our attitudes about social norms (family bonds, ily's, permissions to be videotaped) to sort of justify the unbearably powerful pull of this great great Hunger. I don't experience you as detached, but, rather, as incredibly needy. For love. You'd do almost anything/hurt almost anyone for it.

 

I tell girlfriends all the time that being the "perfect ****buddy" is just another one of those approval-seeking dances we do with men. "I'm game for anything!", "No boundaries here!", "I'm cool with that."

 

It's a kind of perfect-little-girl-perfectly-pleasing-her-man scenario no different than the Perfect Wife or Mother. The Rock-n-Roll Doormat, i like to call it. It's what we women do to survive. Especially if survival was threatened when you were JUST forming ideas about love. Of COURSE you don't want to hear "I love you.", except that you do. Desperately.

 

It's not your fault someone once taught you it was hopeless to believe in/ hold out for that.