15 year marriage at crossroads

[Lillyfree]

Some of you may remember me – I came to LS after ending an emotional affair more than a year ago now. Which was a symptom of the issues I guess I’m finally facing now, more than anything. A horrible error in judgement on my behalf, escapism and a distraction from real problems. However, that’s irrelevant now – I’m only mentioning it because I want to make it clear that’s in the past, and I’m finally looking at my marriage without any regard to the EA.

 

So, where to start. Deep breath I guess…

 

First and foremost, H and I are best friends. We’ve been together for 17 years, married for 15 and have two children, 14 and 11. I was 21 when I met him, we’re the same age.

We work well together, have a lot in common – I guess we’ve really grown up together as we were so young when we became a couple… He’s a good man, and the only person who’s seen all of me, worst and best.

However, that’s where it ends it seems… for years now we’ve been more friends and co-parents. Intimacy, affection and attention is something I desperately need from him yet rarely get, and usually for a short time after I speak up. Then it goes back to the same old. And when I do say something he gets defensive, and angry. Says that he’ll go and see someone (even though I stress that the problem is not solely his, but between both of us) and that’s his way of finalising the conversation and shutting me up. Until next time. He doesn’t say anything, so I assume that he’s either happy with the situation or, if there’s an appearance of things being ok, then it’s ok.

We’ve had sex less than once a month for a very long time now, and it’s getting to the point where I consider it to be a good month if it happens at all. Even when it happens it’s disappointing. He doesn’t last very long at all, or gets a cramp, or just fails to keep an erection. And I have been rejected more times than I wish to count now, usually it’s only on if he feels like it.

Same goes for any other form of affection. I have to ask for hugs. I had to ask him to cuddle in bed.

On the weekend the straw broke the camel’s back. We had a good morning, having a coffee and laughing and talking about plans for the day. Then I ran my foot up the inside of his leg and he …flinched. Clenched his knees together. I pulled back straight away and just felt… humiliated. Rejected again. Then the waterworks started and I just couldn’t stop crying for hours.

So, here we are a few days on and a couple honest and open conversations later. I’m seriously considering divorce. I feel I have tried everything I can, and just can’t anymore.

H said he will organise counselling for himself today. I don’t hold much hope that he’ll follow through with it, as he’s said it so many times and never did anything.

I guess I’d like to hear from men really, get some sort of insight as to what’s happening in his head. But mostly to talk to someone about this. I feel so lost, and sad. We were one couple that everyone thought would stay together forever.

[oldshirt]

it's one or a combination of the following -

 

- a medical/psychological/hormonal issue ie depression, hypertension, diabetis, low testosterone, ED, medication side effect/reaction etc etc

 

- A relationship issue ie unresolved anger or conflict, moments of extreme neglect, some kind of abuse or mental cruelty etc

 

- substance abuse ie alcohol, street drugs or prescription drug abuse.

 

- outside sexual source ie affair (EA and/or PA including online) or porn addiction.

 

- you have become unattractive/undesirable to him, ie put on a lot of weight (and by a lot of weight I don't mean 5-15lbs over time. I mean 50-plus or more lbs), stopped grooming/styling/dressing nice, chronic nagging or whining or treating him disrespectfully. Treating HIM like a roommate/brother etc.

 

It's one or a combination of those things.

 

Your challenge here is that you are going to have to get his attention and make him realize that you are serious and mean business. You may even actually have to pack your stuff and move out/file for divorce or start going out with other men before he gets it. You've been functioning at this low level of satisfaction punctuated by periods of confrontation and short term improvement so long that this is a chronic condition.

 

My recommendation is do what is necessary to get him to take it seriously and BOTH of you get into joint counseling.

[Lillyfree]

it's one or a combination of the following -

 

- a medical/psychological/hormonal issue ie depression, hypertension, diabetis, low testosterone, ED, medication side effect/reaction etc etc

 

he's been checked by our gp, as part of his annual checkup. there's nothing that shows he's got any physical reason for what's happening. maybe counselling will reveal a psychological issue...

 

- A relationship issue ie unresolved anger or conflict, moments of extreme neglect, some kind of abuse or mental cruelty etc

 

he hasn't spoken up about anything that would bother him, from everything he seems - well, i can't say happy, but content. i make sure i pay attention to him, organise times where it's just the two of us. it's actually me that puts more effort into it.

 

- substance abuse ie alcohol, street drugs or prescription drug abuse.

he drinks in moderation, and has never done drugs. he's a bit too straight that way, actually the only time he's had a joint was with me. and that was before we had kids

 

- outside sexual source ie affair (EA and/or PA including online) or porn addiction.

 

this has crossed my mind, even though i've never brought it up. however, we're talking 5,6,7 years of the same? surely by now something would show up

 

- you have become unattractive/undesirable to him, ie put on a lot of weight (and by a lot of weight I don't mean 5-15lbs over time. I mean 50-plus or more lbs), stopped grooming/styling/dressing nice, chronic nagging or whining or treating him disrespectfully. Treating HIM like a roommate/brother etc.

i'm in better shape now than when we met. i look after myself and get many compliments about my appearance, i'm often told that i look more in my late 20s than 30s... and false modesty aside, i'm aware of it. i'm happy with the way i look, and according to him so is he.

i'm not a whiner. and considering i'm constantly approaching him for sex, i'm definitely not treating him like a brother...

moreso, over the years i've been the one to offer some kinky stuff, get herbal supplements (for both of us, as a hint that things could be better so that i'm not insensitive), offered that he watches porn before/during... got some really sexy lingerie which he's never really seemed interested in, i've put it on a couple of times and it's been sitting in the drawer since.

 

It's one or a combination of those things.

 

Your challenge here is that you are going to have to get his attention and make him realize that you are serious and mean business. You may even actually have to pack your stuff and move out/file for divorce or start going out with other men before he gets it. You've been functioning at this low level of satisfaction punctuated by periods of confrontation and short term improvement so long that this is a chronic condition.

 

My recommendation is do what is necessary to get him to take it seriously and BOTH of you get into joint counseling.

 

thank you for your reply. to be honest, i don't think i want to go into counselling just yet. i want to see him make some sort of effort first, as i'm just over everything.

when he said he'll get counselling i replied 'good, you might be forced to be honest with yourself and work out what it is you want'.

i don't think he loves me. i think he's cruising along because he'd rather be where he is than divorced.

and i want him, not another man. i almost went there but realised that OM was just offering what i wanted from my H.

[xxoo]

thank you for your reply. to be honest, i don't think i want to go into counselling just yet. i want to see him make some sort of effort first, as i'm just over everything.

 

It's been years. You don't want to go into counseling "yet"?

 

Is the emotional affair part of the reason you don't want to go to counseling? Because you know your issues will be brought up?

[Lillyfree]

It's been years. You don't want to go into counseling "yet"?

 

Is the emotional affair part of the reason you don't want to go to counseling? Because you know your issues will be brought up?

 

no, EA was discussed with my husband until he decided to put it behind us. i'm not worried about it being brought up again. actually, i believe it could be beneficial that it's brought up.

 

'just yet' was possibly a wrong choice of words. what i mean is, i want to see him put some effort in - if we do joint counselling it will be organised by me, and he'll just tag along like he's done for all this time

[xxoo]

Again, if you're waiting for him to put in effort....it's been years. Why do you keep waiting for him to take the initiative? I get it; you want to see the effort. But at what cost? In hindsight, wouldn't it have been better if you'd scheduled an appt and possibly worked through some of these problems years ago?

[Lillyfree]

Again, if you're waiting for him to put in effort....it's been years. Why do you keep waiting for him to take the initiative? I get it; you want to see the effort. But at what cost? In hindsight, wouldn't it have been better if you'd scheduled an appt and possibly worked through some of these problems years ago?

 

 

because i feel that all the effort so far has been one-sided. and i guess i'm throwing the ball in his court, and his action (or inaction) will be what i'll base my decision on.

[Lillyfree]

i just wanted to add... i may seem like a hardnosed, uncompromising b*tch at the moment. which is not the case - i'm just so angry, and disappointed. i feel lower than dirt. i mean, surely any guy with a half-decent looking wife who's open to anything and wants him anytime would be happy? right?

except mine, obviously.

 

this is why i can't help but sympathise sometimes with WSs who claim that they get nothing at home, and take exclamations of BSs that there isn't anything wrong in the M before someone strays. the only reason i haven't gone elsewhere for it is self-respect.

[John-Dough]

Just curious - was he always a bit distant - not real affectionate. Or is this a sudden change - i know 5 years isn't sudden.

 

If everything is true what you say - there's nothing wrong on your end.

[Lillyfree]

Just curious - was he always a bit distant - not real affectionate. Or is this a sudden change - i know 5 years isn't sudden.

 

If everything is true what you say - there's nothing wrong on your end.

 

no, he wasn't. in the beginning of our relationship he was very affectionate. even during the times while i was pregnant, and after i've had kids - when i was 2 sizes bigger and a bit frumpy with the baby weight....

 

it's been a gradual decline, but thinking back i can say that 5 years have been the most noticeable.

 

i want him to be happy, and he seems to agree with me that physical side of the relationship is very important. but no action from him, just agreement.

 

for a while i've been trying to not say much about it, as i didn't want to hurt his feelings and make him feel self-conscious... maybe that's it? when younger, i was almost ashamed of my sex drive and didn't want to seem pushy. but it's not just sex, it's intimacy in general.

 

is there anything else anyone can suggest that i can try?

[lucy_in_disguise]

Any chance he's bi and conflicted about it? Maybe he resents u for limiting his sexual options

[tired girl]

There is a saying that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. I see that you may need to put a time limit on this with him. You need to let him know that the marriage as it stands is not workable for you, and you need him to step up to the plate to do something different. After he has put some time in to counseling you will be more than happy to go to MC with him to share the load with him but you need to see his commitment first as you have been trying. If he is unable to do this he should tell you now and and not waste your time. Let him know you are at the end of your rope with this, he should know how serious you are at this point.

[Lillyfree]

Any chance he's bi and conflicted about it? Maybe he resents u for limiting his sexual options

 

you never can really know i guess, but from what i've seen i'd say no. i've wondered if he's become asexual however

 

There is a saying that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. I see that you may need to put a time limit on this with him. You need to let him know that the marriage as it stands is not workable for you, and you need him to step up to the plate to do something different. After he has put some time in to counseling you will be more than happy to go to MC with him to share the load with him but you need to see his commitment first as you have been trying. If he is unable to do this he should tell you now and and not waste your time. Let him know you are at the end of your rope with this, he should know how serious you are at this point.

 

we've had a talk this morning, and i've said that as it is our marriage isn't what i want (and was THAT a slightly different morning conversation for us!)

i said i'll wait until he's gone to IC and has a clearer idea as to what he wants from me - and in general - and i'll either go to MC with him or we can start the D preparations.

 

he's sent me a message an hour or so ago that he's booked his first IC session.

i won't hold my breath. i realise that it took a long time to get here, so maybe 6 months to start seeing some improvement? i just don't want to be this miserable for months.

[Journee]

Is there any chance that your H is not feeling good about himself? Has he ever had any self-esteem issues? You mentioned that you were in the best shape of your life. Is he also keeping in good shape and being active? I know I have gone through phases of not responding like my usual self to my H's advances because I am feeling uncomfortable with myself.

 

Even professionally. Is he excelling at work? If he is not and is unhappy about it is there a chance he is letting that translate into his personal life?

 

I'm sorry you are in a tough spot. I have missed seeing you around but it's too bad it's under these circumstances.

[Lillyfree]

Is there any chance that your H is not feeling good about himself? Has he ever had any self-esteem issues? You mentioned that you were in the best shape of your life. Is he also keeping in good shape and being active? I know I have gone through phases of not responding like my usual self to my H's advances because I am feeling uncomfortable with myself.

 

Even professionally. Is he excelling at work? If he is not and is unhappy about it is there a chance he is letting that translate into his personal life?

 

I'm sorry you are in a tough spot. I have missed seeing you around but it's too bad it's under these circumstances.

 

hi journee i've wondered often how you're going. hope you're well.

 

he doesn't talk much about his feelings unless i yank it out of him. he does exercise twice a week and has been feeling good about himself (lately he's been sick with the flu and has mentioned that he can feel he's lost some muscle mass due to missing training, but nothing more).

 

he's in a fairly stressful job, so that could be some of it.

[whichwayisup]

Then I ran my foot up the inside of his leg and he …flinched. Clenched his knees together. I pulled back straight away and just felt… humiliated.

This is something. And, I'm telling you, he's not over the EA, it's done damage to him. Whether he's turned off of you sexually or if he just isn't sexual at all it's an issue and will continue to ruin your marriage. Having no intimacy, no hugs, cuddles, holding hands, massages or foot rubs, no affection is what makes couples grow apart and makes them 'roommates' or seem like bro/sis in the marriage.

 

When was the last time you and him actually went out on a date and had fun? I mean laughing and being silly? Try that once a week, get a sitter and just go out. Don't make it about sex , just make it about light hearted fun and see if that helps a bit.

 

It is time for you two to go marriage counseling, if you need to organize it, do it! He won't, that's just who he is, accept that.

[beach]

you never can really know i guess, but from what i've seen i'd say no. i've wondered if he's become asexual however

 

 

 

we've had a talk this morning, and i've said that as it is our marriage isn't what i want (and was THAT a slightly different morning conversation for us!)

i said i'll wait until he's gone to IC and has a clearer idea as to what he wants from me - and in general - and i'll either go to MC with him or we can start the D preparations.

 

he's sent me a message an hour or so ago that he's booked his first IC session.

i won't hold my breath. i realise that it took a long time to get here, so maybe 6 months to start seeing some improvement? i just don't want to be this miserable for months.

 

If he's willing to look at his behavior and begin to make changes, you need to trust the process. It takes time to invoke change in people. He's probably going to spend an hour with a counselor - get suggestions for change - then will require time to invoke changes.

 

If it's taken 5 years to walk into the Forrest - it's expected to take 5 years to walk out. If he's running - it could take 2-1/2.

[Lillyfree]

This is something. And, I'm telling you, he's not over the EA, it's done damage to him. Whether he's turned off of you sexually or if he just isn't sexual at all it's an issue and will continue to ruin your marriage. Having no intimacy, no hugs, cuddles, holding hands, massages or foot rubs, no affection is what makes couples grow apart and makes them 'roommates' or seem like bro/sis in the marriage.

 

When was the last time you and him actually went out on a date and had fun? I mean laughing and being silly? Try that once a week, get a sitter and just go out. Don't make it about sex , just make it about light hearted fun and see if that helps a bit.

 

It is time for you two to go marriage counseling, if you need to organize it, do it! He won't, that's just who he is, accept that.

 

last time was about a month ago. and we do get along well no matter what we do... intimacy issues have been a long term thing, and at least we've talked openly since the EA. i don't think he's completely over it,you're right.

[Lillyfree]

If he's willing to look at his behavior and begin to make changes, you need to trust the process. It takes time to invoke change in people. He's probably going to spend an hour with a counselor - get suggestions for change - then will require time to invoke changes.

 

If it's taken 5 years to walk into the Forrest - it's expected to take 5 years to walk out. If he's running - it could take 2-1/2.

 

i told him i'll support him and do everything required of me to make our M better.

it's more that i needed him to do something as well -as always the one starting these conversations...

[SerCay]

OP,

 

Could it be that your man feels ''outmanned'' by you?

 

That he feels less attractive, less dominant, less masculine than you?

 

This happened with my ex and me.

 

When men feel demasculined by their spouses they retract sexually..

[tired girl]

^^^^This was something I was wondering. Some men don't like it when the woman is doing all the chasing.

[findingnemo]

At what point does one stop fighting for things to change? Lillyfree, it may be that the EA really messed your H up...psychologically. If it did, I don't understand how he could be happy/content with the way things are. At some level, he may be stuck...as in stuck between wanting to stay M and not believing in your M anymore.

 

Sounds contradictory? Yes. But many people stay M for various reasons especially when it has been a long one like yours. The most you can do is hope that he does go to IC and that in a fixed time frame (which only you can decide), he begins to express his feelings whether good or bad.

 

If he doesn't go to IC, then it is quite plausible that at your 20th anniversary you will still be grappling with the same issues. You are saying you don't want that. Since you seem to have been clear with him, give him a deadline. Once that time is passed, leave or ask him to leave. It may take facing a divorce to wake him up to the fact that he needs to be present one way or the other in your M.

[beatcuff]

... i don't think i want to go into counselling just yet...

 

i have ranted about this before. MC should be the first thought not last desperate/'to make sure' step.

 

MC fails because you are ready to leave and H is still figuring out where he is. So he will go into 'fix' mode --- fix M not him. So the real issues are never honestly dealt with.

 

failing that --- a good step would have been to ask him why he flinched.

 

looks like you want him 'to get over it' and 'move on' and he's not ready...

[John-Dough]

a good step would have been to ask him why he flinched.

 

My thought as well.

[oldshirt]

it's one or a combination of the following -

 

 

 

- A relationship issue ie unresolved anger or conflict, moments of extreme neglect, some kind of abuse or mental cruelty etc

 

 

 

- outside sexual source ie affair (EA and/or PA including online) or porn addiction.

 

 

My bad! I missed where you said you were involved in an EA. That falls under both a relationship with unresolved hurt and anger and neglect and it also falls under outside sexual source. In this case it just happens to have been you getting needs met outside the marriage. It's highly unlikely that your affair did not damage his desire and esteem for you even if he says that he forgives you and says that he is past it.

 

You may think it is behind you and in the past but it does not sound like it is for him.

 

By saying you are wanting him to get counseling and for him to his $hit together you are putting it all on him. I understand that you want to see some effort from him and want him to step up to the plate but this is a dynamic that has been created by the both of you and both of you are going to have to work at fixing it .......if it even can be fixed.

 

You both need to get into joint MC. this is for a number of reasons. One is so that you can lay all this out and get it out in the open and let him and the counselor know what is at stake and know the degree and the seriousness of your satisfaction.

 

Your husband may not be hearing you and may not be grasping the seriousness of the situation. When you talk to him, it may just seem like whining and bitching and background noise to him. If your counselor sticks his finger in your husband's face and tells him he needs to wake up and smell the roses, he may actually do it.

 

And also your husband and you as well probably still have some ongoing resentment and hurt and anger over your affair. There is likely some unresolved baggage surrounding that and it's probably festered to the point it requires professional counseling to get it resolved.

 

You can't just look at this as your husbands issue. You have dirt and blood on your hands as well and it will take both of you facing up to and dealing with your issues to fix it.

Edited December 12, 2013 by oldshirt