Critical Thinking People Do NOT believe in hell

[adrian2012]

Only critical thinking people will not accept the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell. I think the doctrine is the most ridiculous idea out there ever invented. I know the secret to why it was invented. To control the masses with fear. A bunch of self righteous religious powers that be thought it was their job to control the behavior of people by inventing this silly doctrine. It's a scare tactic and nothing more. They think they can hide behind God and scare people but critical thinking people don't fall for this kind of garbage.

 

I don't have any respect for a God who doesn't save everybody. I think it is spiritual abuse to teach that anyone is going to hell.

[amaysngrace]

Another atheists are brilliant thread.

 

A little humility can go a long way but that's a bible teaching...

[Robert Z]

It is interesting that a parent could probably be arrested for child abuse if they fed their kids some horrific story, aside from the story of hell, about how they will be tortured for eternity if they do something wrong.

 

 

Johnny, if you do that again I'm going to hold you down and burn you with a pool of fire. You will suffer horribly and it will never end.

[M30USA]

Here are some logical and historical problems with your post that just BEGIN to scratch the surface:

 

 

1) Jesus warned more about hell than any other Biblical figure. Jesus was also clearly anti-establishment with regard to religion, so this leaves you with a glaring problem: how could he be using hell to "scare" people into following the religious establishment while he, at the same time, was destroying this establishment?

 

 

2) The idea of hell predates the church. It even predates the organized religion of ancient Israel. It was around in the days of the patriarchs like Noah and Abraham, long before there was any organized group which had need to control people.

 

 

3) Hell is complete and eternal separation from God. You can't "scare" a person away from hell if this is where they WANT to go.

 

 

4) You say you would have no respect for a God who doesn't save everybody, but would you respect a God who forced everyone into serving him and worshipping him? That's what heaven is--eternal servitude and worship of God. I highly doubt you'd respect a God who forced this upon people. No. You would be calling him a "tryant" or a "bully". God can't seem to win with you, can he? He's either an abuser or a tyrant.

 

 

5) We don't see the world as it is; we see it as we are. Can you consider the possibility that your belief of hell as being a "scare tactic" is merely projection on your part and that this is how you operate in the world, yourself? Just food for thought.

Edited December 13, 2013 by M30USA

[pie2]

OP (aka repeat poster), Jesus loves you, and repentance will offer freedom.

 

 

I pray you find love in God, and dedicate your time to serving Him and others.

[pureinheart]

Here are some logical and historical problems with your post that just BEGIN to scratch the surface:

 

 

1) Jesus warned more about hell than any other Biblical figure. Jesus was also clearly anti-establishment with regard to religion, so this leaves you with a glaring problem: how could he be using hell to "scare" people into following the religious establishment while he, at the same time, was destroying this establishment?

 

 

2) The idea of hell predates the church. It even predates the organized religion of ancient Israel. It was around in the days of the patriarchs like Noah and Abraham, long before there was any organized group which had need to control people.

 

 

3) Hell is complete and eternal separation from God. You can't "scare" a person away from hell if this is where they WANT to go.

 

 

4) You say you would have no respect for a God who doesn't save everybody, but would you respect a God who forced everyone into serving him and worshipping him? That's what heaven is--eternal servitude and worship of God. I highly doubt you'd respect a God who forced this upon people. No. You would be calling him a "tryant" or a "bully". God can't seem to win with you, can he? He's either an abuser or a tyrant.

 

 

5) We don't see the world as it is; we see it as we are. Can you consider the possibility that your belief of hell as being a "scare tactic" is merely projection on your part and that this is how you operate in the world, yourself? Just food for thought.

 

Bravo- as usual

[Robert Z]

Lake of fire, burning sulfur... hell sounds like a volcano to me. You don't suppose that this is what people had in mind when they made this stuff up, do you?

 

 

But then

The Hebrew word Sheol occurs 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated "hell," "the grave," "death," "destruction," and "the pit." Sheol identifies the general abode of the dead, a place where life no longer exists.

So maybe hell is just your grave

 

 

Hades

is the Greek term translated "hell" in the New Testament. Hades is similar to Sheol. It is described as a prison with gates, bars, and locks, and its location is downward

But then Hades was a Greek God

 

 

In older Greek myths, the realm of Hades is the misty and gloomy[sIZE=2][32][/sIZE] abode of the dead (also called Erebus), where all mortals go. Later Greek philosophy introduced the idea that all mortals are judged after death and are either rewarded or cursed. Very few mortals could leave his realm once they entered: the exceptions, Heracles, Theseus, are heroic. Even Odysseus in his Nekyia (Odyssey, xi) calls up the spirits of the departed, rather than descend to them.

There were several sections of the realm of Hades, including Elysium, the Asphodel Meadows, and Tartarus. Greek mythographers were not perfectly consistent about the geography of the afterlife. A contrasting myth of the afterlife concerns the Garden of the Hesperides, often identified with the Isles of the Blessed, where the blessed heroes may dwell

So we see a parallel to the modern notion of hell in ancient Greek myths.

 

 

But then

The Greek word Gehenna is translated "hell" or "the fires of hell," and expresses the place of punishment for sinners. It is usually associated with the final judgment and depicted as being an eternal, unquenchable fire.

And Gehenna...

 

 

In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[sIZE=2][2][/sIZE] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

However

English "Gehenna" represents the Greek Ge'enna (γέεννα) found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic Gēhannā (ܓܗܢܐ), equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom".

This was known in the Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom",

So now we know where hell is located - in the Valley of Hinnom

 

 

So I give you a photo of hell

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlwf8w-vPNgHRaTS297luKISeK3EnZ0i6zKd1GHlw7NiRFiWP4Uw

 

 

An English professor of mine once said that this place was used as a garbage dump. "Like hell it was!" I said

Edited December 14, 2013 by Robert Z

[skydiveaddict]

Only critical thinking people will not accept the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell.

 

I hope you are right. I'm in enough trouble already.

[Clair93]

I find it difficult to accept hell because it's infinitely unjust to punish someone for eternity for a finite crime.

[M30USA]

I find it difficult to accept hell because it's infinitely unjust to punish someone for eternity for a finite crime.

 

You say this only because you don't know who God is. You dont know who you are dealing with. It's not the sin that is so horrible, but rather WHO you are sinning AGAINST. All sin, while seemingly directed at people, is ultimately directed at God because it is a breaking of his commandments. And God is not just another person, he is infinitely holy and therefore the punishment for a crime against him will be equally proportional.

 

What do you know of holiness? Moses wasn't even allowed to see God because even he was too corrupt and wicked to behold him. Learn who God is and everything else in theology will follow. You will either learn now in his mercy and patience or at the end in his judgement. Every tongue will admit that God is righteous and just in ALL that he does.

 

God isn't on trial. You and I are.

Edited December 17, 2013 by M30USA

[Clair93]

You say this only because you don't know who God is. You dont know who you are dealing with. It's not the sin that is so horrible, but rather WHO you are sinning AGAINST. All sin, while seemingly directed at people, is ultimately directed at God because it is a breaking of his commandments. And God is not just another person, he is infinitely holy and therefore the punishment for a crime against him will be equally proportional.

 

What do you know of holiness? Moses wasn't even allowed to see God because even he was too corrupt and wicked to behold him. Learn who God is and everything else in theology will follow. You will either learn now in his mercy and patience or at the end in his judgement. Every tongue will admit that God is righteous and just in ALL that he does.

 

God isn't on trial. You and I are.

 

This makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

[M30USA]

This makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

 

LOL, nevermind.

 

All I'm saying is you'll never understand the justness of heaven and hell until you first understand God's character in detail from Scripture.

[jimloveslips]

until you first understand God's character in detail from Scripture.

 

But which Scripture?

 

Christian? You'll be joining 33% of the worlds population. Although the Catholics and Protestants don't see eye to eye, and the British invented their own when Henry 8 didn't get his way.. well actually most countries have done this - there's actually some 41,000 dominations (give or take a few thousand) that all have different interpretations of what the bible actually means… and that's just organized religion… If you get into the one on one with god stuff everyone is unique...

 

Isalm? 21%. Again, faction upon faction interpreting the same words to different outcomes.

 

Hinduism, Jewish, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism? Ditto, ditto, ditto.

 

Who is right?

 

And most have exclusion clauses "You shall have no other gods before me"… Why, what's to fear from a little competition? Isn't it all ultimately the same god?

 

You know if god just said "hey here i am" don't you think the world would be a much nicer place? I mean what would there be to fight about?

 

We could all get together in one place, have a controlled nuclear explosion, experience the rapture (I'll voluteer to be the one to press the button so you all don't get accused of suicide and incur the exclusion from heaven rule) and me and all the animals will just get on living and eventually evolve into sentient, god worshipping beings…

 

It's perfect.

You're welcome.

Merry Christmas.

[Clair93]

LOL, nevermind.

 

All I'm saying is you'll never understand the justness of heaven and hell until you first understand God's character in detail from Scripture.

 

I understand what you're saying, that God is the ultimate judge of what's just and unjust, therefore by definition whatever he does or commands is perfect justice and not falling to command would be infinitely unjust, so deserving of infinite punishment.

 

This view of justice and morality makes no sense to me at all.

[M30USA]

I understand what you're saying, that God is the ultimate judge of what's just and unjust, therefore by definition whatever he does or commands is perfect justice and not falling to command would be infinitely unjust, so deserving of infinite punishment.

 

This view of justice and morality makes no sense to me at all.

 

While what you're saying is true, it's not really the critical point here. The point comes down to God's HOLINESS. He cannot and will not be in the presence of sin. He will not spend eternity in the presence of sin. Therefore he will cast out all those who sin and are not covered by the blood of Jesus. This is what hell means. That's the definition.

 

Secondly, imagine if you punched a random person on the street. You would most likely get a fine and possibly overnight in jail. But imagine if you punched a person of high importance like the president. You'd be lucky if you didn't get shot. Now imagine offending God. As I said, it's not just the sin, itself. The critical factor is WHO you are sinning against.

Edited December 17, 2013 by M30USA

[Clair93]

While what you're saying is true, it's not really the critical point here. The point comes down to God's HOLINESS. He cannot and will not be in the presence of sin. He will not spend eternity in the presence of sin. Therefore he will cast out all those who sin and are not covered by the blood of Jesus. This is what hell means. That's the definition.

 

Secondly, imagine if you punched a random person on the street. You would most likely get a fine and possibly overnight in jail. But imagine if you punched a person of high importance like the president. You'd be lucky if you didn't get shot. Now imagine offending God. As I said, it's not just the sin, itself. The critical factor is WHO you are sinning against.

 

And where in your definition is any sign of eternal torment?

 

Your second point makes even less sense honestly. Is it right for the president to shoot me if I were to punch him? Obviously no, it's a very wrong and immoral thing to do. But if God wants to punish me for eternity for sins that I committed in a finite life, then of course you say it's fine.

[M30USA]

And where in your definition is any sign of eternal torment?

 

The separation, itself, from God is the torment. Even now those who reject God still benefit from his blessings and mercy. (As its written in Ecclesiastes, God causes the sun to shine on the righteous and wicked alike.) But a time will come when those who are permanantly removed from his presence will also be permanantly removed from his blessings and mercy. It's honestly impossible to imagine because nobody has ever experienced it.

 

Your second point makes even less sense honestly. Is it right for the president to shoot me if I were to punch him? Obviously no, it's a very wrong and immoral thing to do. But if God wants to punish me for eternity for sins that I committed in a finite life, then of course you say it's fine.

 

God declared that the soul who sins shall die. This means spiritual death too. And, since God will NOT be made out into a liar, if you sin you will die (with eternal death in hell). If God were to allow someone into heaven who has sinned, then he will have broken his own Word. God says that his Word will always be shown true.

Edited December 17, 2013 by M30USA

[JamesM]

Only critical thinking people will not accept the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell. I think the doctrine is the most ridiculous idea out there ever invented. I know the secret to why it was invented. To control the masses with fear. A bunch of self righteous religious powers that be thought it was their job to control the behavior of people by inventing this silly doctrine. It's a scare tactic and nothing more. They think they can hide behind God and scare people but critical thinking people don't fall for this kind of garbage.

 

I don't have any respect for a God who doesn't save everybody. I think it is spiritual abuse to teach that anyone is going to hell.

 

Without even arguing whether there is a hell or not, you have diminished your opponents to stupid numbskulls simply because they disagree with you. Without presenting a case, you seem to have assassinated every opposing character in one fell swoop.

 

Why would anyone want to disagree with you if you show no respect for their opinion? Why present facts when you have dismissed them before examining them?

 

This is about what you think and not about seeking truth.

 

When a critical reader examines your argument, then he or she doesn't see any supporting facts for its basis. One only sees opinions.

 

Feel free to present a case as to why no hell exists, and then true critical thinkers can have an open discussion about facts and opinions.

[M30USA]

Why [should anyone] present facts when you have dismissed them before examining them?

 

Great point!

 

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation before investigation."

-Edmund Spencer

[nittygritty]

 

 

But then So maybe hell is just your grave

 

 

Maybe? What if "hell" was your soul not leaving your body after being pronounced dead and being aware and feeling what was happening to you but not being able to do anything about it, forever? Feeling the process of being embalmed, buried and trapped in a coffin or forever feeling the burn of cremation sounds like hell to me.

 

Critical thinking people are smart enough to figure out that they don't want to go to hell.

Edited December 17, 2013 by nittygritty
typo

[Clair93]

The separation, itself, from God is the torment. Even now those who reject God still benefit from his blessings and mercy. (As its written in Ecclesiastes, God causes the sun to shine on the righteous and wicked alike.) But a time will come when those who are permanantly removed from his presence will also be permanantly removed from his blessings and mercy. It's honestly impossible to imagine because nobody has ever experienced it.

 

 

 

God declared that the soul who sins shall die. This means spiritual death too. And, since God will NOT be made out into a liar, if you sin you will die (with eternal death in hell). If God were to allow someone into heaven who has sinned, then he will have broken his own Word. God says that his Word will always be shown true.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see your point but I'm not convinced that this vision of God, life and morality is rational, just and in accordance with an omniscient and omnibenevolent God. I think if we spend 10 minutes we can significantly improve on this ourselves.

[M30USA]

Thanks for the explanation. I can see your point but I'm not convinced that this vision of God, life and morality is rational, just and in accordance with an omniscient and omnibenevolent God. I think if we spend 10 minutes we can significantly improve on this ourselves.

 

Then we have succeeded in our discussion. We don't agree but we have come to a final knowledge of the other person's views. This was actually a model discussion which I wish more people could follow.

[jimloveslips]

I hate to break in just as everyone was getting along so well but:

I'm not convinced that this vision of God, life and morality is rational

 

Whichever "side" you are on there can be no denying that rationality and "God" are anathema to one another, which is exactly the problem of debating faith. You cannot explain the supernatural in nature - it does not exist.

 

As has been proven many times in these forums the general consensus of those of faith inevitably devolves to "if you cannot understand god, then I cannot explain it to you" where as science has the exact antithetical stance - the explanation comes before understanding: the evidence, the facts lead to a conclusion. The radical beauty of science is that it does not claim to be omnipotent: given new understanding our conclusions may be modified.

[nittygritty]

I hate to break in just as everyone was getting along so well but:

 

 

Whichever "side" you are on there can be no denying that rationality and "God" are anathema to one another, which is exactly the problem of debating faith. You cannot explain the supernatural in nature - it does not exist.

 

As has been proven many times in these forums the general consensus of those of faith inevitably devolves to "if you cannot understand god, then I cannot explain it to you" where as science has the exact antithetical stance - the explanation comes before understanding: the evidence, the facts lead to a conclusion. The radical beauty of science is that it does not claim to be omnipotent: given new understanding our conclusions may be modified.

 

An LS poster use to say "Science is the window to God" which I agree with.

[Robert Z]

Maybe? What if "hell" was your soul not leaving your body after being pronounced dead and being aware and feeling what was happening to you but not being able to do anything about it, forever? Feeling the process of being embalmed, buried and trapped in a coffin or forever feeling the burn of cremation sounds like hell to me.

 

 

So then your belief is that you can just blow off the bible and make up your own definition? Of course, that's what the bible does as well.