The things that happen to an Agnostic that narrow the gap between belief and non-beli

[HokeyReligions]

Agnostic: An Atheist without an attitude. One who does not believe, but is open to the possibility of the existence of a Deity such as the Christian God and Jesus, but has not found enough proof to believe.

 

 

Things that make one think:

 

I’m recovering from Cancer – so far so good.

 

My doctor is a practicing Christian and has been sooooo good to us. Providing me with hundreds and hundreds of dollars of free drugs (the samples that he gets). He also charges me half price for office visits most of the time, and today he saw my husband and I both (had to been medically checked out after the car wreck last Saturday) and he only charged one office visit.

 

The accident was not too terrible (we are fighting with the other lady’s insurance right now, but that’s just red-tape and business)

 

That our car was not totaled and in an emergency we can get around in it.

 

That I have had steady work in spite of all the days I had to miss because of family medical emergencies.

 

My doctors PA said something today (he’s a Christian too) that I thought was interesting and demonstrated his belief. He said sometimes God keeps pushing people to believe by showing them what could happen and makes them think about their life if they don’t believe, and what could happen to them after this life. Could be a three-strikes you are out sort of thing?

 

That got me thinking about the “fear of God” that many people tried to put into me when I was growing up and you know, it almost did make me a bit fearful. What if the Christians are right and I do die without faith in God? But I can’t force love and I don’t think ‘fear of God’ is really a premise for entrance into Heaven.

 

If I had died (or whenever I do die) will I be met by St. Peter who will look on some long list of souls and say “Nope, you never really loved God so you can’t get into Heaven. But you feared him, so you can go to a lesser Heaven” Or “But even though you feared him, you didn’t love him so its off to Hell with you” Or “Fear is enough, welcome to Heaven” ?????

 

Hmmmmmmmmm

[tiki]

 

 

That's all I'm gonna say.

[tanbark813]

I'm an agnostic but not open to the possibility of the Christian concept of God. IMHO, "God" is closer to the sort of things that quantum physics touches upon. I think religion explained those concepts in a way that people could understand better given the knowledge of the time--with analogies and stories and such--but we've since matured mentally.

[dyermaker]

I don’t think ‘fear of God’ is really a premise for entrance into Heaven.

When I was confirmed, they taught me that 'fear of God' was sort of an outdated phrase. I think 'awe and reverence' is what they're teaching now.

[Moose]

Originally posted by dyermaker

When I was confirmed, they taught me that 'fear of God' was sort of an outdated phrase. I think 'awe and reverence' is what they're teaching now.

 

I see it the exact opposite way.

[quankanne]

That got me thinking about the “fear of God” that many people tried to put into me when I was growing up

 

I'm with Dyer on this one (" I think 'awe and reverence' is what they're teaching now"), but then again, I wasn't taught the Baltimore Catechism, the really hard-core Catholic catechism!

 

from my understanding, both from faith formation classes and from real-life experience, I'm starting to understand that "fear of God" has more to do with losing that connection with him, and garnering his disappointment, rather than "you're going straight to hell unless you've got God scared into you." I don't buy that, I don't think God operates on that premise, and the LaHaye-Jenkins books (the "Left Behind" series) are only encouraging people to come to God for the wrong reasons (i.e., fear, rather than love). It makes the whole idea of a loving, sacrificing God a joke -- if he could scare us into behaving, why would he even need to put himself up on that cross for us?

 

what is the fine line between believing and non-believing? a sense of attitude. and it's there for everyone to grasp, if they so chose. It's not motivated by fear – though fear can spur the thinking behind it, the "what if" – but is a leap of faith, no pun intended.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Moose

I see it the exact opposite way.

 

I'm qouting myself to explain here.......I don't see reverance being taught, I see genuine, "Fear", which I feel is what Hokey is talking about.

 

Too many times I hear about people taking the word, "fear", and "protect thyself", hand and hand. Most of the time that would be true. But I feel when I, "Fear", God, it's only because I did something that would I believe make God look at me as if I didn't take Him seriously, or if I were disappointing Him on purpose.

 

Of course I don't mean to do so......or at least it isn't my intention. As matter of fact, that's when most of the time, my wife's preference to sect, and mine may clash. To be perfectly honest......I'm not sure from what sect I might place myself.

 

My Spiritualism is mine own.

[Dakini]

Originally posted by tanbark813

"God" is closer to the sort of things that quantum physics touches upon.

 

 

God is in the Details. - mies

[RowanRavyn]

Originally posted by Moose

My Spiritualism is mine own.

 

 

 

I know the church I grew up in taught hell-fire and damnation. It scared the crap out of me, and yet I was always there raising my hand when good little girls were not supposed to asking "What if?" "What does God really mean by that?" "Are you sure?"

 

My Daddy taught me about God by example. I wasn't scared of my Daddy, but I definitely was in awe of him. To see a look of disappointment in his eyes. WHOA BOY! But fear him never.

 

People, places, things are put in our path for a reason.

 

you Hokey!

[HokeyReligions]

Oh my. I lean away from belief in a God. I think everything is explainable through physical science and quantum physics and other means we don't even know. And perhaps, God can be explained too. I dunno. The whole fear thing, as I was taught, was "Believe in God or go to hell and burn forever" and not an awe or reverence thing. I didn't care one iota if I disappointed "Him" because to me all God is, is a vengeful being who punishes for disobedience but does not reward in any way other than "your reward is that you are NOT burning in hell right now -- get out there and work". I don't guess I've ever felt love for Him. Even when I was baptized. I stopped believing a long time ago, but the events of the past month have had a lot of people around me talking about miracles and messages.

 

I'm not making much sense today. My face hurts, I didn't get the job I wanted, I found out that my current job ends February 28. And when I read Quank's post above, I read this line: both from faith formation classes and from real-life experience as from faith fornication classes.....

 

I am feeling really down lately and I just can't seem to pull myself up like I used to. I used to rant or vent here and read back later and be Okey-dokey, but now I just can't seem to get my head above water. Even reading my own post about the Pros and Cons of the last year (pros outweighed cons) I just feel to dadgum tired of treading water, I'm ready to sink below the surface and give up.

[moimeme]

Awww, Hoke I'm sorry to hear you're feeling wretched. I'm also sorry that people who thought they were being 'good Christians' told you tales of a horrid old mean man. Which God ain't. It's just that religious leader types, I guess, figured people couldn't be persuaded to be good people without using God as a threat of horrid punishment.

 

Another job will come your way for sure. Hang in there!

 

((((((((HUGS)))))))

[tiki]

Stay strong. You've accomplished a great deal of predicaments, in masses.

 

We are your support system. Never give up. We won't let you.

[RowanRavyn]

I wish I could hug you for real.

 

You are stonger than you think you are.

[Moose]

This was a PM, your mail box is full Hoke!

 

Hey,

 

Hang in there Hoke. I'm sicker than a dog today.....I was up all night with 2 sick little girls, now I can't keep anything down this morning......It's raining and cold, my brother is a jerk, I don't want to be here right now, I've yawned like a thousand times already.......I guess I'm telling you all of this in hopes that you'll see it could be a lot worse than what you think.

 

Love ya! Mean it!

Moose

[Bronzepen]

(((((((((((((((Big HUG)))))))))))))))))))

 

 

Every time I feel down I think of this story.

 

Blessing or Bane

 

Near the Great Wall lived an old man, who had a fine horse. One day the horse ran away to the barbarian territory, and failed to return.

 

When his friends and relatives heard the tale, they all came to comfort the old man.

 

They never expected the old man to say with a lack of concern, "The way I look at it, who knows if having my horse run away might not bring me some advantage!"

 

Several months later, the old man's horse returned, bringing back a horse of the barbarians with it.

 

Again his friends and neighbors all came, this time to congratulate him. But he responded that there was really nothing worth rejoicing over. If something went wrong, he said, the end result could still be disastrous.

 

Regrettably, the old man's words were right on the mark. His son tried to ride the horse from the barbarian lands. Unfortunately, the horse had not been tamed, and it threw the boy to the ground, breaking his leg.

 

Again family and neighbors arrived to express their sympathy. The old man told them, "You needn't worry so much about me. Although it is unfortunate that my son broke his leg, it may turn out to be for the best.

 

A year later, the barbarians attacked and broke through the Great Wall in force. All the healthy young men in the area were called to war, and the vast majority were killed.

 

The old man's son, on the other hand, was spared, because his bad leg kept him out of military service.

 

 

 

This story is recorded in Huai Nan Zi. It points out that in all good fortune there may lurk bad, and vice versa, expressing the logic that good and bad fortune are relative, interdependent, and ever-changing.

[HokeyReligions]

Thank you Bronz, I hadn't heard that story before.

 

I'll look at it again later -- maybe I'll feel better and will get out of it what you intended for me. I do appreciate your effort in replying to my post -- and everyone who has replied. When I read the story the first time all I thought was 'yeah, and the boy lived in shame and humiliation, being shunned and made fun of by the people of his town, because he did not fight along with his friends and neighbors but instead sat out the battle because of a silly horse-hiding accident, and his father lost his friends because they resented that their children died nobly in battle while he kept his son near'.

 

I'm really in a foul mood and down below the dumps. I have not felt this low in years - I can't remember ever feeling quite this low.

 

Usually I can find the positive side to anything, but now all I can do is see the negative side. I give up.

[Bronzepen]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

Thank you Bronz, I hadn't heard that story before.

 

I'll look at it again later -- maybe I'll feel better and will get out of it what you intended for me. I do appreciate your effort in replying to my post -- and everyone who has replied. When I read the story the first time all I thought was 'yeah, and the boy lived in shame and humiliation, being shunned and made fun of by the people of his town, because he did not fight along with his friends and neighbors but instead sat out the battle because of a silly horse-hiding accident, and his father lost his friends because they resented that their children died nobly in battle while he kept his son near'.

 

I'm really in a foul mood and down below the dumps. I have not felt this low in years - I can't remember ever feeling quite this low.

 

Usually I can find the positive side to anything, but now all I can do is see the negative side. I give up.

 

Your welcome.

 

Hokey it's OK to feel down just don't stay down.

 

Don't think in terms of positive or negative.

 

Remove yourself from your situation, if only for a moment.

 

Be the old man in the story. And say, "Is this good luck or bad luck?"

 

Answer: You don't know. So don't sweat it.

 

Not saying to ignore it, just accept it for what it is.

 

If you can do something about it then do.

 

If you can't then that's fine too.

 

(((((((HUG)))))))))

[Moose]

Buck up soldier!!! Get off yer ass and get some s*** done for cripes sake! What is this, kindergarden? Stop feeling sorry for yourself, there's other things going on in this world you know! If we can't count on you, who can we count on?

 

You do know I'm joking..........right?

[blind_otter]

According to the shakyamuni buddha (siddhartha, the historical buddha), God or many Gods exist - beings with different lifespans, greater abilities of perception and understanding that are beyond the human scope - but that salvation does not lie in giving yourself over in worship to this/these beings - salvation lies in your own hands, among your own deeds. The eightfold path: Right understanding, right thought, right action, right speech, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

 

I have had personal experiences with the divine. I won't go into details. But I am, at the very least, sure of something called the Holy Spirit.

 

My personal understanding, from my studies and my experiences, is that God may truely exist - but is beyond my ability to comprehend. Infinite, genderless, omnipotent, omnipresent - my mind can't even grasp the inherent concepts of divinity! So I am an ant. I do my ant things, live my ant life, and hope for the best.

 

A being so beyond me may very well answer my prayers, but never in a way I could truely understand or relate to.

[dyermaker]

If you truly wish to appreciate life, read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse.

 

You'll be so miserable that any hardships you have endured in life will be instantly preferable to continual pursuit in to the awful prose.

[quankanne]

"And when I read Quank's post above, I read this line: both from faith formation classes and from real-life experience" as "from faith fornication classes....."

 

 

 

A-HA!!! the secret write-protect code works!!! everybody ELSE read about the formation classes, but you were able to tap the code

 

don't know what to say about hitting that low. A priest friend tells me that at the end of the day, he tells God "I've done my part, I'm turning back over to you so I can rest up for tomorrow; it's all yours to worry about now."

 

sometimes, you've just got to scream real loud, then just walk away from it, disassociate yourself a bit so that you can regroup and recharge. and sometimes it helps to tell yourself that all the shxt that's being flicked your way really is meant to help build your character because that's the only way to get through it.

 

I hope tomorrow is a better day than this past day or two – and that you get snapped up by an employer who thinks you're the best thing since sliced bread.

[blind_otter]

No way, to truely feel cowed by the suffering of others, read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. Years in Auschwitz, lost life's work, wife killed, friends executed, prolonged starvation. Then I really DO feel like an ant.