Question from MM to OW

[ZMM]

we share hobbies and have developed social circles

 

We do have some of this, but not openly

 

You two sound like you're still living 2 completely separate lives ? So by self control I meant that she retained her own life and did not accept you fully into her life as a long term BF.

 

- yeah not really possible

[ZMM]

Flowingmane - did you ever get that worked out, what you were concerned about?

[thecharade]

ZMM,

 

I don't post much these days, but I hate the way you have been treated. Even though the title indicates it is an OW/OM forum, it is actually a place for many BS to work through their own pain and anger by attacking others. However, in between the unfair or over generalized comments, you can and will get some good support. Focus on the relevant and ignore the rest. It's the only way.

 

One thing you said struck me. You said that you have a real problem upsetting or disappointing others. Is that true? From what I have read, this "conflict avoidance" is a very common trait for MM. As a MOW, it was a problem for me, but I didn't even know it. I was unbelievably unhappy with my H for a long time. When we finally got into MC, the counselor agreed with all my complaints, but then he added, "And what does SHE need to own? She needs to own the fact that she was this unhappy for all these years and didn't let you know it, didn't let you feel it. She is ready to walk, and you had no idea. She needs to own her part in keeping you in the dark."

 

It was so true. I was very conflict avoidant when it came to my biggest hurts and wounds in the marriage. I didn't stand up for myself, so how could my H know I was physically and emotionally leaving the M?

 

That being said, I did and do love my MM even though I am working on my M. He is very conflict avoidant and told me he finds it impossible to imagine hurting and disappointing so many others so he will always stay M. There are many, many MM with terrible Ms due to conflict avoidance, and that quality ends up being the reason the A ends and they stay married, too. All over the place, they are avoiding facing anything and everything. Is this you? If so, it needs to be addressed, whether you stay or go.

 

Good luck.

Keep posting.

[WasOtherWoman]

Arriving late to the thread (and this is my first post here at LS, previously posted on an OW board that has become increasingly silent lately).

 

There is nothing wrong with with wanting to understand your OW's intentions regarding your relationship. Really, why would you even consider making a decision about your marriage without first collecting all of the facts?

 

As an OW, I definitely did not want to be responsible for partaking in the breakup of someone's marriage. But I also knew that I was really not cut out to be an other, I needed to be an only. Therefore, him remaining married was a dealbreaker for me, which I articulated clearly prior to us even getting involved. I just thought it was simpler that way.

[ZMM]

ZMM,

 

I don't post much these days, but I hate the way you have been treated. Even though the title indicates it is an OW/OM forum, it is actually a place for many BS to work through their own pain and anger by attacking others. However, in between the unfair or over generalized comments, you can and will get some good support. Focus on the relevant and ignore the rest. It's the only way.

 

One thing you said struck me. You said that you have a real problem upsetting or disappointing others. Is that true? From what I have read, this "conflict avoidance" is a very common trait for MM. As a MOW, it was a problem for me, but I didn't even know it. I was unbelievably unhappy with my H for a long time. When we finally got into MC, the counselor agreed with all my complaints, but then he added, "And what does SHE need to own? She needs to own the fact that she was this unhappy for all these years and didn't let you know it, didn't let you feel it. She is ready to walk, and you had no idea. She needs to own her part in keeping you in the dark."

 

It was so true. I was very conflict avoidant when it came to my biggest hurts and wounds in the marriage. I didn't stand up for myself, so how could my H know I was physically and emotionally leaving the M?

 

That being said, I did and do love my MM even though I am working on my M. He is very conflict avoidant and told me he finds it impossible to imagine hurting and disappointing so many others so he will always stay M. There are many, many MM with terrible Ms due to conflict avoidance, and that quality ends up being the reason the A ends and they stay married, too. All over the place, they are avoiding facing anything and everything. Is this you? If so, it needs to be addressed, whether you stay or go.

 

Good luck.

Keep posting.

 

First, thanks for the response.

 

I have never really been informed on all the different nuances with interpersonal communications. All these terms were totally new to me. But, when I started seeing people posting about CA, I thought maybe that was me. I did have some circumstances in my childhood that could have brought that about. Then, I looked into it a little deeper and determined that I am not like that in other areas, such as business. I also figured out I wasn't like that in other relationships. So, I may have some of those tendancies, but not as much as some people.

 

I think part of my problem stemmed from early on in my M. When we were first together, my W displayed some serious rage issues and still does. What she was angry about did not have anything to do with me, but I was who was there, so I was attacked. She had these issues before she ever knew me and part of it may be her personality, but part of it also comes from problems in her childhood. Her family is well aware of these issues and give me a lot of credit for putting up with it over the years. There is no point trying to discuss anything when she rages, so I basically developed a coping mechanism to just avoid it. Over the years, she has said some extremely nasty things to me. They are things I can not forget. It also caused me to lose my attraction towards her. I just would see her as someone that had so much hate inside her. You really wouldn't believe some of the stuff she says, not just about me, but other people as well.

 

As far as MC goes, early on in our M, I convinced her to go to MC. When we went, right away, the therapist could see what the problem was, but she wasn't willing to deal with it. In fact she got angry and left and would never go back and would never go to another therapist again.

 

I am sure you know more about CA than me, so do you think I may be a CA person. I am going to deal with this. I am building up my strength.

 

One last thing, W is not a horrible person. And I am not perfect either. But, she does have the issues I described here and other issues as well.

 

Thanks Again!

[ZMM]

Arriving late to the thread (and this is my first post here at LS, previously posted on an OW board that has become increasingly silent lately).

 

There is nothing wrong with with wanting to understand your OW's intentions regarding your relationship. Really, why would you even consider making a decision about your marriage without first collecting all of the facts?

 

As an OW, I definitely did not want to be responsible for partaking in the breakup of someone's marriage. But I also knew that I was really not cut out to be an other, I needed to be an only. Therefore, him remaining married was a dealbreaker for me, which I articulated clearly prior to us even getting involved. I just thought it was simpler that way.

 

This makes it a little confusing. At first, everyone said one thing. But now, some others like you, who took the time to post, who don't post to every thread on here, are saying the opposite. And this new group seem to be some of the more reasonable posters.

 

So, on this I am not sure. I kind of think I already know where she stands, but I guess I am not totally sure. Either way, I need to deal with the M issues.

 

THANKS SO MUCH!

[WasOtherWoman]

I agree that you do need to sort out your marriage. But, it could be argued that each situation is mutually exclusive, provided that you have made the decision to end your marriage?

[ZMM]

I agree that you do need to sort out your marriage. But, it could be argued that each situation is mutually exclusive, provided that you have made the decision to end your marriage?

 

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but you say it could be argued that each situation is mutually exclusive, meaning both can't be true?

 

Are you saying, I can't ask her where she stands and deal with my M issues. By dealing with my M issues, I mean, either fix it or get out. Maybe you are saying, that if I ask her, then I should be ready to get out. If that is what you are saying, I understand.

[WasOtherWoman]

I believe that the two are mutually exclusive, assuming that you have already decided that your marriage is needing to be over. If so, deal with ending that marriage. At the same time, you can find out where your affair partner stands as well. But you would still be moving along with a divorce.

 

I am thinking though, (not judging, mind you) that you would like to understand your affair partner's position prior to making a decision about ending your marriage?

[ZMM]

I believe that the two are mutually exclusive, assuming that you have already decided that your marriage is needing to be over. If so, deal with ending that marriage. At the same time, you can find out where your affair partner stands as well. But you would still be moving along with a divorce.

 

I am thinking though, (not judging, mind you) that you would like to understand your affair partner's position prior to making a decision about ending your marriage?

 

That was what I was thinking, when I first posted here because of so many things that were involved after being married for over 20 years and the dependency and other issues. I thought if she wasn't interested, I could just tolerate my current circumstances. I did think it may be inappropriate to ask, as I didn't want to burden OW with my problems or make her feel responsible for breaking up a M.

 

However, since going through all this on LS, I started thinking that really wasn't necessary. Because regardless of how she felt I needed to deal with the M.

 

So, basically at this point, I don't know.

[Journee]

When I read things like your last post about some of the anger and verbal abuse you gave experienced in your marriage, it makes me very grateful that I took hold of my pain and am healing myself in order to be better wife. I let a lot of the disturbing things I have been through affect my heart. I held resentments against my H and many others. My heart turned cold and I could not forgive anyone. Some crazy things have happened in my M in the last couple of years. Things that caused us both to take deep hard looks at ourselves. Separately. I have been working on myself and am very thankful that I learned these lessons in my twenties.

 

Your post made me see what my M could look like in years to come if I had not owned my crap too. It's not popular to be accountable these days.

 

No one should be verbally abused or raged against. I'm so ashamed of my behavior alongside my H. My H is very conflict avoidant. He leaed how to run away from things that are difficult in his own head from watching his parent's do a ridiculous dance of back and forth. I learned to push everyone away that loved me to protect myself " just in case". Not a good combo.

 

I hope you are able to communicate with your W and just really take hold of things. I think where some of these threads strike people wrong is not wanting out of a bad M but the deceit. I have learned that everything is not black and white. I couldn't imagine being married to someone I was never in love with at any point. It's hard to believe it when you see it.

 

I'm rambling now and am not an OW but just wanted to say that threads like this hit home for me as a person that was so angry for so long. My H probably saw me muchv like you do your wife.

 

If your W were to get into some counseling on her own and then with you, do think that would make a difference in how you view things? Would it be too little too late?

[thecharade]

I know many married men who are unhappy in their Ms, but they are terrified to address any issues. Why? As my one friend said a few days ago, "I'm afraid she'll call my bluff and leave me." He'd rather have a terrible M than no M. Is this you? The real question is, "If you are so detached from your W, what keeps you from leaving, from holding her accountable? Why do you cover for her and forgive her so easily, all the while suffering and falling out of love? Why do you need her to believe your M is fine if it is not?"

 

Those questions must--MUST--be looked in the eye and addressed before you pull your AP and her emotions farther into this mess. Do not worry about her for the moment. First figure out why you are tolerating a partial M, why you need it or want it? You need to figure out what holds you there to know whether or not you can or should leave it.

 

If you are then able to see clearly a path out of the M and know for certain it will or should happen, you can--with a clear conscience--check in with your AP.

 

But truthfully, you have nothing but heartache to offer her right now.

[ZMM]

If your W were to get into some counseling on her own and then with you, do think that would make a difference in how you view things? Would it be too little too late?

 

First, I don't see that happening. But if it did, I probably would give it a shot. The thing is, the mere mention of counseling, will set her off, either IC or MC. Unless she has changed her opinion, which I highly doubt.

[thecharade]

Does she know she could lose you? Unless she goes? You'd be surprised how quickly she may change her tune.

[thecharade]

I do not feel all Ms should be saved. Or that all As will become a happily ever after. But I do believe people need to find comfort and acceptance for themselves and their decisions. You have a right to be happy, but it is obvious that you have a lot of MM guilt/responsibility. You must work through this. What is healthy, fair guilt? And what is unhealthy and unfair? Work through the emotions regarding your M, because they won't go away by simply leaving for your AP. These guilty, unfinished emotions cause many MM to go back to their wives. Please, avoid that additional damage to both your AP and W by working through these feelings now.

 

Are you opposed to IC for yourself?

[ZMM]

I know many married men who are unhappy in their Ms, but they are terrified to address any issues. Why? As my one friend said a few days ago, "I'm afraid she'll call my bluff and leave me." He'd rather have a terrible M than no M. Is this you?

 

Not even close. Over the years, she has been quick to toss out the D word over any type of disagreement. But, she never acted on it. The last time, I called her bluff. Then, she said no, she didn't mean it, etc. And in earlier posts, I pretty much covered what my concerns were.

 

As for the rest of your comments, that was obviously a failing on my part, not dealing with it, putting up with the crap, avoid the issue. I've said that on multiple posts. My fault!

 

Why? Hell I don't know. If I figure that one out, I'll be sure and let you know.

 

And I don't know where you got the idea that I need my W to think the marriage is fine, I don't and she doesn't think that.

[ZMM]

Does she know she could lose you? Unless she goes? You'd be surprised how quickly she may change her tune.

 

Yeah - she realized that the last time she brought up the D.

 

And since then, she has been much better. Which actually complicates things.

[ZMM]

Are you opposed to IC for yourself?

 

No, not at all. I think I could use it. And this may sound strange, but that would upset her as well.

 

She is totally against any type of counseling.

[ZMM]

Yeah - she realized that the last time she brought up the D.

 

And since then, she has been much better. Which actually complicates things.

 

Oh you were talking about counseling. No, I haven't given her that ultimatum. But, I am considering that.

[thecharade]

Ok, I apologize if it sounds like I am attacking you. I am not, not at all. I meant "marriage is fine" because, well, you are still there. My H literally would NOT look at his issues until I told him that I had made arrangements to move out. He was SOOOOO pissed! Looking back now, he was angry that I was forcing him out of his Do Nothing zone. Your W is not going to change unless you leave. The saying is "You have to be willing to lose the M if you want to save the M."

 

And it seems you are making everything better for her because her family appreciates what you put up with? Nice, but what about what you need in life?

[ZMM]

And it seems you are making everything better for her because her family appreciates what you put up with? Nice, but what about what you need in life?

 

Yeah - actually, I am not sure you read the entire thread or what all I even included in here. But, we are talking pretty much total dependency and that pretty much drives me nuts. The reason I am posting, because I have reached a breaking point.

 

Thanks for talking to me. I need to go for now. Be back later.

[thecharade]

Yes, the BS working on the M does complicate things! And speaking as a very wounded former OW, it breaks the OM/OW's heart when the married AP appears to be leaving and then is hit with guilt from all sides. That is why you must let your OW be for the moment.

[Journee]

No, not at all. I think I could use it. And this may sound strange, but that would upset her as well.

 

She is totally against any type of counseling.

 

Is she afraid of facing the things from her childhood? Has she opened up to you much about it? I think really looking yourself in the eye from a behavioral point of view can be scary. It's easier to just keep doing what you have always known.

 

IC would be great for you if you are open to it. Maybe to just get yourself prepared for the decisions you need to make for your life.

[thecharade]

ZMM, I did read the whole thread, but I am sure I read it too fast and missed some points. My apologies. It is quite a long thread, though.

 

Keep us posted.

[ZMM]

Is she afraid of facing the things from her childhood? Has she opened up to you much about it? I think really looking yourself in the eye from a behavioral point of view can be scary. It's easier to just keep doing what you have always known.

 

Not sure. I know about some things. But, I always thought there was something else she wasn't telling me. I could be wrong though.