Question from MM to OW

[ZMM]

I honestly think some of it is also loyalty (everybody don't jump on that at once), responsibility and not wanting to look badly to other people.

 

Very true. It's a responsibility or an obligation. Just because you may not be in love with a person, you still care about them and may worry that they can make it on their own, especially in certain circumstances.

[MissBee]

Reality is: no one can be your security blanket.

 

An affair relationship, like any other, has a chance of simply not working out longterm through no fault of either people's. So it is really foolish IMO for someone to leave based on thinking they can guarantee a LTR with their AP.

 

Everything has its pros and cons. People divorce and life moves on. You won't be destitute forever even if you lose some money financially. Having your cake and eating it too isn't only about affairs, it's when in all kinds of situations people want all the benefits without any discomfort and are attempting to unfairly manipulate things so that they can have incompatible things. Divorce won't be a piece of cake, but such is life. Lots of stuff isn't a piece of cake but we get through it.

 

Not wanting to divorce because you're scared about money and you also want to guarantee your OW is around are your own valid feelings but not anything you should burden her with.

[violet1]

Very true. It's a responsibility or an obligation. Just because you may not be in love with a person, you still care about them and may worry that they can make it on their own, especially in certain circumstances.

 

Yes, I completely get this. It's easier to have an affair than get divorce, but it's wrong on all levels. My H has severe depression and we have custody of his eldest daughter. I'm so worried about losing her, but I'm no longer in an affair. People just don't get that divorce is just not that simple in all cases. I have no legal rights to my step daughter and my husband has trouble keeping a job. So is it more selfish to divorce him and leave him and the daughter homeless or have an affair? I hope that I don't get back into my affair, but there's no way I can leave my marriage if my H doesn't work and can't support him and the daughter. My H is very aware of this. So manipulation can work both ways, not just from the WS.

[Popsicle]

ZMM, I have yet to see you address any of the posts suggesting that you sit down and talk to your wife about being unhappily married and that you've been thinking about divorcing. That tells me you haven't really thought about an actual plan to divorce, you've just probably fantasized about being free and that's it.

 

Affairs are often just a form of escapism for married folks, and that's where it ends.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Popsicle

[ZMM]

ZMM, I have yet to see you address any of the posts suggesting that you sit down and talk to your wife about being unhappily married and that you've been thinking about divorcing. That tells me you haven't really thought about an actual plan to divorce, you've just probably fantasized about being free and that's it.

 

Affairs are often just a form of escapism for married folks, and that's where it ends.

 

I did read them, but I didn't have anything to say in that regard, besides THANKS. Yes I know that is what I need to do. I have gone over that in my head dozens of times.

 

Everyone is different, that includes me and my W. So, I have to take that into account. I have to consider what will be said and what will occur and make sure I handle it correctly. Since I can't divulge too much here - I haven't gone into the specifics of my concerns. But, they are serious.

 

Of course I have fantasized about being free, but probably much less now as I am actually trying to plan this out.

[ZMM]

you also want to guarantee your OW is around are your own valid feelings but not anything you should burden her with.

 

Yes I thought that might be the case. I had a burning desire to know, but I thought it was probably wrong for me to do that. That is why I asked.

 

Thanks.

[Ruffian1]

Cinnimon - OW already knew M was broken. Due to circumstances, she observered it. Early on, she actually pointed out somethings that I knew about, but hadn't really taken to heart

 

So it is was quite obvious to OW that your M was crap? But not to your W, she does not know it is 'broken"??

 

well, if it is that obvious to the public, it should be that much easier to tell your W about it.

 

Does the W know it is "broken"??

[ZMM]

So it is was quite obvious to OW that your M was crap? But not to your W, she does not know it is 'broken"??

 

well, if it is that obvious to the public, it should be that much easier to tell your W about it.

 

Does the W know it is "broken"??

 

Probably not for reasons OW and others noticed.

 

But, she knows it has serious problems, or at least she should.

[whichwayisup]

Probably not for reasons OW and others noticed.

 

But, she knows it has serious problems, or at least she should.

 

Have you and your wife even spoken about any marital issues? That you're unhappy? Or are you assuming she knows and figured it out on her own? Sounds like you two have bad communication skills if this has not been discussed.

[ZMM]

Have you and your wife even spoken about any marital issues? That you're unhappy? Or are you assuming she knows and figured it out on her own? Sounds like you two have bad communication skills if this has not been discussed.

 

We have very bad communication skills. Any discussions we have regarding anything of any depth, end up in a big argument, with nothing accomplished.

 

There are numerous issues regarding our relationship that she knows I am unhappy about. I have told her on many occasions. She knows they are valid, but doesn't really do anything to try and correct. She gives reasons why she can't.

 

There are things she is unhappy with me about. On some, I feel she has a valid point and I try to make adjustments.

 

Obviously, this is my point of view. So, I am biased. But, I think she would agree with me regarding my complaints about her. Though, I think she would feel her reasons for not doing anything were because they are insurmountable in her eyes.

 

This doesn't even deal we intimacy issues. We never discuss those issues, never have. That's another major problem there as well.

[The Tide is High]

We have very bad communication skills. Any discussions we have regarding anything of any depth, end up in a big argument, with nothing accomplished.

 

Have you ever been to Marriage Counseling? Why are you convinced that your marriage cannot get better? and why did you hang in all of these years if it has not been rewarding or loving for you?

 

Why do you think that entering into a relationship with the OW is going to bring you a more rewarding experience once you are dealing with the everyday, real life experience of life in general?

 

I guess if it were me in your position, I would take a good long look at what I contributed or didn't contribute to the relationship, try to remember when the marriage was good (if it ever was), what has changed since it was good in regards to my growth and my partners or lack there of, the outside challenges we had to deal with as a couple, before then assessing the relationship with the OW.

 

I think they really do need to be handled as separate issues...and you owe your wife the decency and the respect to first share with her what is going on. It is a lot easier for an outsider who has not been in your marriage to observe from their own isolated viewpoint - not in the dynamic - and then give their input. I think that is very dangerous to be in a relationship with someone who is obviously undermining your marriage a bit and who has everything to gain and nothing to lose. I'd be real careful there.

 

Your marriage was apparently good enough for you before you met this OW and now you are willing to throw all the history away on someone you most likely don't know that well.

 

To me it sounds like you have settled for a long time for good enough and the first thing you need to figure out is why that has been enough for you, why you only see the value you have to your wife as a good provider (has she not made you feel like anyone more than that?!?), why have you not expected more or been strong enough to make your life what you now apparently believe it can be, and where does that leave your wife if she has in fact given a large portion of her life to the marriage you have shared - Has she felt the same as you? or don't you know because you haven't asked?

 

I am sorry you are going through this...how sad to have apparently given up a good portion of your life on 'good enough'. Your post is my biggest nightmare...that my husband would come to me and say what you are feeling...your post yesterday actually sent me in a spiral despite the fact I don't think my husband felt forced in any way into our marriage...and I know deep down he loved me then and still loves me now...my recent experience has been someone else overstepping boundaries and really creating a rift in the marriage I have shared with my husband for a long time.

 

Please do not let someone else outside of your marriage decide what is best for you or that your wife isn't treating you well...that is only a decision for you to make and for you to make alone...and not one that should be influenced by anyone but you.

 

Ok, now I am probably just projecting...Good Luck to you...

[ZMM]

Have you ever been to Marriage Counseling? Why are you convinced that your marriage cannot get better? and why did you hang in all of these years if it has not been rewarding or loving for you?

 

Why do you think that entering into a relationship with the OW is going to bring you a more rewarding experience once you are dealing with the everyday, real life experience of life in general?

 

I guess if it were me in your position, I would take a good long look at what I contributed or didn't contribute to the relationship, try to remember when the marriage was good (if it ever was), what has changed since it was good in regards to my growth and my partners or lack there of, the outside challenges we had to deal with as a couple, before then assessing the relationship with the OW.

 

I think they really do need to be handled as separate issues...and you owe your wife the decency and the respect to first share with her what is going on. It is a lot easier for an outsider who has not been in your marriage to observe from their own isolated viewpoint - not in the dynamic - and then give their input. I think that is very dangerous to be in a relationship with someone who is obviously undermining your marriage a bit and who has everything to gain and nothing to lose. I'd be real careful there.

 

Your marriage was apparently good enough for you before you met this OW and now you are willing to throw all the history away on someone you most likely don't know that well.

 

To me it sounds like you have settled for a long time for good enough and the first thing you need to figure out is why that has been enough for you, why you only see the value you have to your wife as a good provider (has she not made you feel like anyone more than that?!?), why have you not expected more or been strong enough to make your life what you now apparently believe it can be, and where does that leave your wife if she has in fact given a large portion of her life to the marriage you have shared - Has she felt the same as you? or don't you know because you haven't asked?

 

I am sorry you are going through this...how sad to have apparently given up a good portion of your life on 'good enough'. Your post is my biggest nightmare...that my husband would come to me and say what you are feeling...your post yesterday actually sent me in a spiral despite the fact I don't think my husband felt forced in any way into our marriage...and I know deep down he loved me then and still loves me now...my recent experience has been someone else overstepping boundaries and really creating a rift in the marriage I have shared with my husband for a long time.

 

Please do not let someone else outside of your marriage decide what is best for you or that your wife isn't treating you well...that is only a decision for you to make and for you to make alone...and not one that should be influenced by anyone but you.

 

Ok, now I am probably just projecting...Good Luck to you...

 

The Tide Is High: First, I want to say thanks for such a thoughtful response. I really appreciate it.

 

Now, I'll try to address the points you mentioned.

 

No, we have never been to MC. I tried to get us to do that in the past, many years ago. She would not. She doesn't believe in it and thinks it's all BS.

 

I think the reason our marriage will not get better is due to the differences in our personalities. Below I will kind of go into some of that, but there are other areas as well.

 

Why I hung in there when it was not rewarding or loving is a good question. I guess I found other things in life that I thought made up the difference. I think for the most part, I just thought a deep love just wasn't in the cards, so make the best of things.

 

I hate that both of us have given up so much of our time. It's been over 20 years. That is why I think I need to figure this out pretty soon.

 

I don't know for sure that relationship with OW would bring me happiness. In fact, I don't know for sure that she would want to be with me or me with her for that matter. I do feel I need something more though.

 

There were certain things always missing in our relationship, a certain closeness. It started from the very beginning of our marriage. I was a much more affectionate person. She was and is not that way. She did not change, but I guess it did change me. I adapted and adjusted to the lack of intimacy. I was in previous LTRs where we both liked to hold each other and when in bed at night be close to each other. She let me know she does not like that and she just wants to sleep. This all happened at the beginning. At the time, I probably was a little offended and just felt, well if she doesn't want me to touch her, I won't.

 

Here is something else I took to heart. About a year ago, I was visiting a friend at the hospital and I ran into one of my LTRs from way back. We ended up getting something to eat and discussing life. I know this is TABOO in most people's opinion on LS, but I don't really care. We were old friends. Anyway, she told me about her life and her 2 divorces and I told her a little bit about my marriage. Somehow the conversation got around to how there was no real affection in my marriage. She said she was very surprised because I was always such an affectionate person. I told her I guess I kind of lost that over the years. She was telling me this with no ulterior motives. I am sure of that.

 

I guess with that lack of affection, that is why I consider myself more of a provider than anything else. I remember one time, I was trying to get her to get a job and she made it clear, that if she did, that money would be all hers. Okay, fine. It wasn't about the money anyway, I just thought it would be good for her. She never did try to get a job.

 

Anytime, I try to discuss anything with her, she goes into all this stuff about how she has given up her life for me and how I have ruined her life. In the past, I just gave up and walked away.

 

One of the things OW pointed out to me, which I already knew but tried not to dwell on it, was how she will berate and belittle me in public. It's not like I cower down. But, I also don't create a public scene either. Anyway, it is disrespectful and I would never do that to her.

 

I will tell you, I have been going over this in my head for a long time and it is really wearing me out. I don't know if it will subside or if I will get it figured out, but I hope so. It's tiring.

 

At the end of the day, I still don't know exactly what I will do. I do love my wife, but more as a friend. I do feel a sense of responsibility to make sure she is okay. However, I think maybe I owe myself a chance at something more. Not necessarily with OW, but perhaps with someone.

[The Tide is High]

I am sorry ZMM...

 

I guess for me, if I was you, the first thing I would say is the truth and let her know what my needs are.

 

You should not feel badly that you need affection and fun...everyone does, and I feel everyone deserves that.

 

Your wife's comment that you have quote "ruined her life" needs to be expounded on...How and When? It is not fair if she is blaming you for that without details...

 

It is also not fair that she is not willing to try counseling. Counseling is a great tool for couples whether they are having issues or not...communication is not always easy. I can understand that it can be difficult to open up to someone you don't know and to pay them a ton of money...but it can save your marriage in the end...and it should be her goal if she is committed to do whatever she can, just as it should be yours...

 

You know...my husband and I have had our challenges and recently we went to this incredible place in a very incredible way...and as we were up on this hilltop looking over one of the most beautiful scenery I had seen in a long time I told him how I didn't understand how people can end a decent and fulfilling relationship in the chase for something shiny and new...how do they know they won't be dealing with the same issues down the road just with someone with a different face and name...

 

I am in my own dark place right now...I got here from twenty years of some issues I recognized and others I think that I denied but am now strong enough to deal with...it isn't easy...but I can tell you this...there has been fun and affection in the relationship I am in...and everyone, including you deserves that.

 

I am glad that the person who you knew all those years ago had lunch with you. That is not taboo if they are a true friend and had no ulterior motives. I have many guy friends from way back when...they are dear friends...she was there for a reason...to remind you of your true nature...

 

Can you just take a moment with your wife...sit down with her, hold her hand, remind her of your true nature and why it isn't being fostered in your relationship...tell her the TRUTH...that you are sorry but that your needs are not getting met, and ask her if she feels hers are...she probably feels something if you are engaged at all with someone else...let her know that the only way you can go forward is if you get counseling and it is non negotiable although you both can have input in to who you both feel comfortable with...if it isn't too far gone...otherwise you are going to have to go your own way...

 

O.K., so now that I have given you advice it is time for me to get my own act together and figure out how the he*& I let some woman overstep the boundaries of my marriage and figuratively gave her a pretty invitation to just come sit down in the middle of it and reak havoc!

 

Best of Luck to You ZMM...You can do this...

Edited December 15, 2013 by The Tide is High
Correct Spelling

[Baby123]

Ah I think you have put a lot of thought into ending your marriage. And it seems your now content with the fact of leaving with or without the OW.

 

I see no point in wasting years of your life being unhappy- seize the day, be happy not just content.

[ZMM]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

I will continue to ponder on this and find my course of action. I will try not to procrastinate too long as I know life is too short. I hope everything works out the best for all parties concerned, not just me. Thanks again.

[Goodbye]

ZMM, I have yet to see you address any of the posts suggesting that you sit down and talk to your wife about being unhappily married and that you've been thinking about divorcing. That tells me you haven't really thought about an actual plan to divorce, you've just probably fantasized about being free and that's it.

 

Affairs are often just a form of escapism for married folks, and that's where it ends.

 

 

This is VERY true. I think this was the case with my exMM and I suspect it is the case for many.

[ZMM]

O.K., so now that I have given you advice it is time for me to get my own act together and figure out how the he*& I let some woman overstep the boundaries of my marriage and figuratively gave her a pretty invitation to just come sit down in the middle of it and reak havoc!

 

I hope everything works out for you. Thanks again for the support.

[ZMM]

This is VERY true. I think this was the case with my exMM and I suspect it is the case for many.

 

I don't know. I can only speak for myself. I really don't think that is true in my case, but then again, I'm not sure how well anyone can judge their own motives.

[findingnemo]

I don't know. I can only speak for myself. I really don't think that is true in my case, but then again, I'm not sure how well anyone can judge their own motives.

 

Hi ZMM,

 

Thanks for being brave enough to post and for being sincere in your replies.

 

How does one judge their own motives? I suppose that there is no known formula. It is one of those things that we humans grapple with from time to time. For starters, you really need to figure out what your dealbreakers are with regards to your M life. 20 years of little to no affection sounds like a nightmare. What was the payoff? What is it that is making you content and for all these years has enabled you to live accepting life like this? Are you willing to lose whatever it is? Are you willing to risk never really finding that affection you need in another R? Are you truly better off alone than with your W? That is the question. The OW, what she feels, thinks or wants is irrelevant when you look at the bigger picture. You know you need to make yourself happy and that nobody, not even your W, can do that for you. What your W can do is make you miserable and she can only do that with your express permission. But just as you CHOSE to marry her, and CHOSE to stay M regardless of the problems, you get to CHOOSE how the next 20 years of your life will play out.

 

One way to end this nightmare of indecision is to sit your W down and tell her about your A. It seems counter-intuitive. But having talked and talked and talked for years, perhaps now when you do talk, she will listen. You may be at a point in your M where you need something to shake it up and force you both to look at what it is you have or don't have. If there is one thing I have learned in life, it is that things may not be much easier for me when I live in honesty but they are more straight forward. Better to be open so that she knows she is in a sinking ship and can then decide how to move forward. It is possible she will divorce you immediately and that the A will be something that in her mind justifies getting out of this M. It is also possible that she will wake up and fight for your M. Whatever the case, living in limbo will be a thing of the past. Outing yourself will force things to move one way or the other.

 

A less drastic thing to do is work on yourself first. If your W will not consider counselling, why don't you go for IC? You need help sifting through your thoughts about what the past few years have been like, your role in the state of your M, what you can and can't control and more. I don't believe in counselling per se but I do believe in the power of talking to someone who is trained to make you think constructively and objectively about your life. This isn't just about an unsatisfying M. This is about an unsatisfying life! The word "HOPELESS" comes to mind. Living without the hope of receiving love the way you need to be loved. Living without hope that things will get better in your R. Living without hope that one day you will be truly happy with the person lying down and waking up next to you every day for the rest of your life. Such a bleak outlook is not good for your health. What a D has done for me is to give me hope...and I am much happier for it. I wish the same thing for you whatever path you choose. Just make sure you give yourself the possibility of future happiness, if nothing else.

[Owl]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

I will continue to ponder on this and find my course of action. I will try not to procrastinate too long as I know life is too short. I hope everything works out the best for all parties concerned, not just me. Thanks again.

 

I don't get it...what is there to continue to ponder?

 

There's nothing left to think about, nothing left to consider.

 

There is not one single good reason not to take action right this moment, in fact. NOT ONE.

 

Get off your butt. Stop pondering, and start DOING.

 

All it requires is for you to actually DO something instead of just sitting there thinking about it.

[ZMM]

I don't get it...what is there to continue to ponder?

 

There's nothing left to think about, nothing left to consider.

 

There is not one single good reason not to take action right this moment, in fact. NOT ONE.

 

Get off your butt. Stop pondering, and start DOING.

 

All it requires is for you to actually DO something instead of just sitting there thinking about it.

 

Maybe ponder was not the right word. Plan may have been more appropriate.

 

I know a lot of people have expressed their POV. Everybody's POV was slightly different. Even if they were all identical, I'm not sure I would follow them exactly.

 

But, I came here because I had no one else to discuss this with. I appreciate everyone's feedback. So, for me the way it works, I will take all this information that everyone posted and also my posts and some of the articles and threads I have read. Then, probably do a little more introspection and from all that determine a course of action.

 

It may not be the way you would do it or anyone else, but that is kind of the way I need to handle it.

[ZMM]

Hi ZMM,

 

Thanks for being brave enough to post and for being sincere in your replies.

 

How does one judge their own motives? I suppose that there is no known formula. It is one of those things that we humans grapple with from time to time. For starters, you really need to figure out what your dealbreakers are with regards to your M life. 20 years of little to no affection sounds like a nightmare. What was the payoff? What is it that is making you content and for all these years has enabled you to live accepting life like this? Are you willing to lose whatever it is? Are you willing to risk never really finding that affection you need in another R? Are you truly better off alone than with your W? That is the question. The OW, what she feels, thinks or wants is irrelevant when you look at the bigger picture. You know you need to make yourself happy and that nobody, not even your W, can do that for you. What your W can do is make you miserable and she can only do that with your express permission. But just as you CHOSE to marry her, and CHOSE to stay M regardless of the problems, you get to CHOOSE how the next 20 years of your life will play out.

 

One way to end this nightmare of indecision is to sit your W down and tell her about your A. It seems counter-intuitive. But having talked and talked and talked for years, perhaps now when you do talk, she will listen. You may be at a point in your M where you need something to shake it up and force you both to look at what it is you have or don't have. If there is one thing I have learned in life, it is that things may not be much easier for me when I live in honesty but they are more straight forward. Better to be open so that she knows she is in a sinking ship and can then decide how to move forward. It is possible she will divorce you immediately and that the A will be something that in her mind justifies getting out of this M. It is also possible that she will wake up and fight for your M. Whatever the case, living in limbo will be a thing of the past. Outing yourself will force things to move one way or the other.

 

A less drastic thing to do is work on yourself first. If your W will not consider counselling, why don't you go for IC? You need help sifting through your thoughts about what the past few years have been like, your role in the state of your M, what you can and can't control and more. I don't believe in counselling per se but I do believe in the power of talking to someone who is trained to make you think constructively and objectively about your life. This isn't just about an unsatisfying M. This is about an unsatisfying life! The word "HOPELESS" comes to mind. Living without the hope of receiving love the way you need to be loved. Living without hope that things will get better in your R. Living without hope that one day you will be truly happy with the person lying down and waking up next to you every day for the rest of your life. Such a bleak outlook is not good for your health. What a D has done for me is to give me hope...and I am much happier for it. I wish the same thing for you whatever path you choose. Just make sure you give yourself the possibility of future happiness, if nothing else.

 

Thanks! I like your post, but need some time to reply. I'm working right now.

[ZMM]

I don't get it...what is there to continue to ponder?

 

There's nothing left to think about, nothing left to consider.

 

There is not one single good reason not to take action right this moment, in fact. NOT ONE.

 

Get off your butt. Stop pondering, and start DOING.

 

All it requires is for you to actually DO something instead of just sitting there thinking about it.

 

There are also some extenuating circumstances that are not about me that must be factored in.

[Owl]

NM...just saw your most recent post.

[Owl]

There are also some extenuating circumstances that are not about me that must be factored in.

 

That you can't discuss here? Really? If they're about your wife...they're not your problem to figure out...they're hers. Divorcing also means giving up the rights to decide those things on her behalf, and giving up the responsibility for resolving them.

 

What else can be so major as to prevent you from truly starting this right now?