Haves and have-nots in love and life.

[Mrlonelyone]

When it canes to monetary and material wealth there are those born in the wrong place as wrong time. Born in a slum or shanty town they are lucky to upgrade to running water and lighting.

 

 

Maybe people like myself and others are born into such emotional poverty that healthy emotional relationships aren't in the cards?

[mammasita]

I don't agree with that completely. It's true if you let it be true. I grew up lacking any semblance of emotional normalcy and you can turn it around.

[Mrlonelyone]

I don't agree with that completely. It's true if you let it be true. I grew up lacking any semblance of emotional normalcy and you can turn it around.

 

 

 

Are you the rule or the exception? Some boys can play basketball so well they can get out of the ghetto and into the NBA. Most don't.

[mammasita]

Are you the rule or the exception? Some boys can play basketball so well they can get out of the ghetto and into the NBA. Most don't.

 

Neither.

 

Comparing physical ability with emotional capacity is comparing apples to oranges.......literally.

 

You/I/anyone can develop emotional skills, not everyone can become a basketball superstar.....they might be too short.

[Mrlonelyone]

Neither.

 

Comparing physical ability with emotional capacity is comparing apples to oranges.......literally.

 

You/I/anyone can develop emotional skills, not everyone can become a basketball superstar.....they might be too short.

 

 

 

Great So it is all my fault.

 

I guess I'll go shoot myself now. Sarcasm

[trevzilla]

well studies on animals that have been removed from any physical contact with their mothers have proven to be very detrimental, even physically and impaired brain development.

 

I can't imaging why a messed up childhood wouldn't be a huge handicap later in life. I think it's especially bad for men since women are attracted to personality traits like confidence and warmth. My mother was very emotionally abusive, so it's hard to overcome the negative self talk and I don't particularly trust people and have a hard time opening up emotionally and sharing.

[Mrlonelyone]

@trevzilla

 

Yeah. The thing about it is, it makes achieving a truly healthy relationship hard. I'm sure we will all find someone or the other.

 

My fathers mother died when he was 10-12 years old. My mom says he has wanted to be mothered ever since then. That he has never ever really recovered from not having his mother there.

 

For me it was my mothers drinking. She is a great person in most ways and very supportive. However, when she drinks she is a different person. She would revert to her own childhood and how hard it was. Then my father wasn't much help as he suffered from depression and wasn't emotionally available for long stretches. My being, different, in terms of how I express gender and my interest in feminine things as well as science...that wasn't a problem. At least I have that other kids didn't give me trouble.

 

 

Then there is the baggage of past relationships.

 

Some people get screwed up by their early relationships. They have a bad one or an unhealthy one early on. Then they repeat that pattern again and again and again. We choose people who like that early relationship are likely to hurt us. On some level we want to make that first good feeling of love right again.

[FrankieFrank]

So in a way, never being in a relationship would be a plus? As in no past hangups or getting screwed mentally by some ex?

[Mrlonelyone]

So in a way, never being in a relationship would be a plus? As in no past hangups or getting screwed mentally by some ex?

 

Up to a point, yes. Sometime in your adolescent years you should have some little positive relationship experience. As I am fond of pointing out, the brain keeps growing in important ways until you are 25. So getting your brain trained for relationships by that age, by experience, would be a good thing.

 

Not having a relationship before 25 can be an impediment.

 

My problem also stems from the fact that every relationship I had in that crucial stage suffered some kind of social stigma. Due to age, race, gender, culture etc. I never had a remotely normal relationship where I could confidently walk with my honey or my boo and not get static for it. I.e. It is thought it would be nice to be having an affair with the hot teacher. Never mind that if you ever tell it will mean doom.

[trevzilla]

true Melonelyone about past relationships.

 

My ex wife was fooling around on me for 3 years with a variety of men. She never expressed any remorse and just blamed me for not being a good enough husband. Of course something like that is a real confidence destroyer and just compounded my trust issues.

 

It's amazing that you can love someone, and they can turn on you like that and be so heartless and cruel. Very hard to open up after that.

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles, loneliness is a real problem. I pretty much have given up, and I just get involved with volunteering at my church. I've met a lot of very nice people there and we just go out for coffee and dinners and hang at people's homes. Close friends help.

Edited December 21, 2013 by trevzilla

[Mrlonelyone]

true Melonelyone about past relationships.

 

My ex wife was fooling around on me for 3 years with a variety of men. She never expressed any remorse and just blamed me for not being a good enough husband. Of course something like that is a real confidence destroyer and just compounded my trust issues.

 

Your gonna hate me for hearing this. I am one of those guys that women only ever select for their side *ick. My male lovers have been braver, straggly than them. The first one was in high school. A teacher who was married. The worst one was one of my best friends girlfriends. It happened once in a drunken haze and I would never give into her again.

 

Know this. Those men that your wife cheated with, were hurt almost as much as you were. She used them as objects. That is what a sociopath does. She may just be that way about men and sex not people in general. IDK the woman, you do. I just know the type.

 

I'll bet that a number of those guys didn't even know she was married until it was too late.

 

It's not that you are so bad or they were so much better. Some people have a hunger for a variety of lovers and should never get married. Men like that do not. Women like that do due to social pressure. It's not your fault at all.

 

It's amazing that you can love someone, and they can turn on you like that and be so heartless and cruel. Very hard to open up after that.

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles, loneliness is a real problem. I pretty much have given up, and I just get involved with volunteering at my church. I've met a lot of very nice people there and we just go out for coffee and dinners and hang at people's homes. Close friends help.

 

You have a group you hang out with. I know they are old and it isn't college. However consider the link in my signature line. Perhaps one of them, if single, is just who you should try to get to know.

[AnyaNova]

I am starting to feel like this too.

 

I mean, I was very lucky to be born in a fantastic home to parents who were smart, strong, and had the gift to know when to step in and when to step back.

 

But my ability to trust other people was nearly destroyed by my peers. Being female, a bookish nerd, talented at music, and generally spending more time reading or practicing than keeping up with the latest bands, shows, or whatnot. I caught hell from my peers for quite a long time.

 

It is so difficult for me to truly get to know people, but even more importantly, to let them get to know me!

 

I think that is also perhaps, why I've had such a difficult time getting over my ex. It was such an expenditure of trust, and I got so hurt, that I literally have become very cynical.

 

Any possible prospect, any message on OLD, any guy who asks for my phone number, and the first thing that I wonder, is in what particular ways this guy might be hard-wired to break my heart.

 

I wish I could get back to that open and receptive place I was in when I started dating my ex.

 

Because I am scared in my bones of getting my heart ripped open again. Of missing some big sign that there might be more problems there than I can help with. Of getting cheated on. Of finding myself in another abusive relationship (though I think I have the confidence now to avoid that).

 

But, I really have a very strong desire to share myself intimately with someone else. To cuddle and share touch that speaks more than any words. To be held and to hold.

 

But I am thinking perhaps I may be one of the have nots. I thought being pretty now would make dating so much easier. It actually makes it so much worse, especially if you're shy.

 

Anyway, I've written a novel, but I think I understand a small part at least, of where you're coming from.

[FrankieFrank]

Up to a point, yes. Sometime in your adolescent years you should have some little positive relationship experience. As I am fond of pointing out, the brain keeps growing in important ways until you are 25. So getting your brain trained for relationships by that age, by experience, would be a good thing.

 

Not having a relationship before 25 can be an impediment.

Why would it be an impediment? It would be ideal to have only loving, caring, great relationships from the get go, but obviously that won't happen. You said "getting trained for relationships", surely it could happen without actually having ones? Maybe just by observing other couples?

 

I think what would be an impediment is a horrible relationship that traumatized you (you in general).

[Mrlonelyone]

Why would it be an impediment? It would be ideal to have only loving, caring, great relationships from the get go, but obviously that won't happen. You said "getting trained for relationships", surely it could happen without actually having ones? Maybe just by observing other couples?

 

I think what would be an impediment is a horrible relationship that traumatized you (you in general).

 

It is an impediment because you haven't had a loving caring etc etc relationship during that crucial stage of development. As someone point out the famous study about animals that are not handled actually growing less. Well, love life at those early ages sets the tone for latter ages. We learn patterns and we repeat them.

 

Even loving caring relationships....end. That does not mean the whole thing was retroactively bad. They key to moving on healthily is to mourn what was good. Accept and remember what was bad. Then let go of the past. The way many people move on is by badmouthing their ex like she/he was a dog.

[AnyaNova]

It is an impediment because you haven't had a loving caring etc etc relationship during that crucial stage of development. As someone point out the famous study about animals that are not handled actually growing less. Well, love life at those early ages sets the tone for latter ages. We learn patterns and we repeat them.

 

Even loving caring relationships....end. That does not mean the whole thing was retroactively bad. They key to moving on healthily is to mourn what was good. Accept and remember what was bad. Then let go of the past. The way many people move on is by badmouthing their ex like she/he was a dog.

 

That is something I try not to do. There can be a useful exercise if, like me, you tend to idolize, and that is to list some of theirs as desirable characteristics, but I remember one time in a class talking about my ex with someone in my cohort and I said something along the lines of attachment issues and possible mommy issues and it just felt like ashes in my mouth.

 

I apologized for saying it and said that I shouldn't have badmouthed him like that, but yeah.

 

Except for that one exercise in that one situation, I agree. I think bad mouthing is a terrible way to do it. You make the loss easier by reducing them to a Caricature of themselves, but you are not grieving the actual loss, and I think it does more harm than good.

 

My ex was so much more than those things I said. He was a good man dealing with a lot who was trying to do the best he could. He was sweet and intelligent and the whole of him is what I need to get over and move on from, since he clearly wants nothing to do with me ever again.

 

It still boggles my mind how two people who were once so close can become so distant. I think, though I need the break, I will be glad when the Holidays are over.

[FrankieFrank]

It is an impediment because you haven't had a loving caring etc etc relationship during that crucial stage of development. As someone point out the famous study about animals that are not handled actually growing less. Well, love life at those early ages sets the tone for latter ages. We learn patterns and we repeat them.

 

Even loving caring relationships....end. That does not mean the whole thing was retroactively bad. They key to moving on healthily is to mourn what was good. Accept and remember what was bad. Then let go of the past. The way many people move on is by badmouthing their ex like she/he was a dog.

 

You said "loving and caring relationships". Well, doesn't it include family and friends? While total lack of love and care from any source whatsoever undoubtedly can and will cause problems, I don't think romantic relationship are that special to be required, when other sources of love and care are present.

[Mrlonelyone]

You said "loving and caring relationships". Well, doesn't it include family and friends? While total lack of love and care from any source whatsoever undoubtedly can and will cause problems, I don't think romantic relationship are that special to be required, when other sources of love and care are present.

 

 

 

Eweewe you'd do that with your family?... just kidding I know what you mean.

 

 

It would be nice if it did however the actions are quite different aren't they? We don't French kiss our family. We don't crotch kiss our family. We don't embrace our family in coitus unless they are our spouse.

 

 

A person needs to practice that a couple of times before they do it for keeps in the bond of marriage and parenthood. Not experiencing that is like being isolated in a room from a young age.

 

 

This is what happens when a child is isolated with no human contact.

Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

In the study of language acquisition there is the idea that one has a critical period after which it is not possible or just very very hard to learn a language. Critical period hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

 

In the same way family and friends are not a substitute for love and sex and latter marriage. In fact after a certain age. Love and sex aren't a substitute for a good long term relationship.

[felicity1]

I believe that all relationships are dysfunctional to varying degrees. No one on this earth can dodge childhood trauma whether it be being teased by your siblings to losing your parents in a car crash or being sexually abused by your aunty. It's not possible to raise a child perfectly. These experiences will play out and cause truent in relationships.

 

To add to Mrlonely's comments, on a relative scale, we are all walking around with impaired brain function.

[jimloveslips]

...two people who were once so close can become so distant

 

I agree it is weird, but I still love those people, as they were, I still can think off all the happy times - in fact I have to really dig deep to remember the bad bits.

 

The old cliche "It is better to have love then lost than never to have loved at all" is completely accurate imho, I'm glad I had those relationships, and I'd do it again even if I knew I was going to get ripped apart at the end - it was worth it, I have a smart funny beautiful son thanks to one of them, and all of them still give me immense joy when I think back on them.

 

I understand people's pain and the reluctance to re-engage, but I do think the negativity is a hinderance to finding someone who will be the next love of your life, or even friends that will enhance your life.

 

I've said this on many others threads but I also think that the "love hunter" mentality is a distorter - when you're in that mode you are not really yourself, you don't react as the real you would and in fact you confuse yourself, and in so doing create barriers between yourself and others around you.

[Els]

Plenty of people who were born poor have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and made a better life for themselves.

 

It's the same with most other things, really, including the topic of your thread.

[AnyaNova]

Plenty of people who were born poor have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and made a better life for themselves.

 

It's the same with most other things, really, including the topic of your thread.

 

Way to kick someone when they're down, and if you'll do your research you'll find that economic upward mobility is rapidly diminishing. It is becoming less and less possible, despite the myth of the American Draam.

 

But politics aside. Stop a minute and think, please.

 

if he could pull himself up by his bootstraps to find someone, he wouldn't be here, because he would have already!

 

I know bromides like this seem helpful, but all they do is rub salt in the wound. Yes positive thinking is far more likely to achieve the desired results, but one can't magically lift themselves from a feeling of resignation and failure in any endeavor.

 

They need to start wih small successes, like smiling at the cute person of the opposite sex at the coffee shop and getting a smile in return, and taking that as a positive. Then building to saying hi to that handsome dude you keep passing in the library. And feeling accomished when they smile back at you. To striking a small conversation about the weather, or that surprising thing you learned about Chopin or Feynman during class. And keeping it light and short. Then building up to a date etc.

 

Suggesting ways to set small goals to lead to successes which will naturally build up positive thinking and a new belief in possibilities? Absolutely.

 

Telling someone it's essentially their own fault for not thinking positively enough and making it happen magically?

 

Not so helpful and frankly, can be harmful.

 

People, is some basic sensitivity to people who are clearly hurting too much to ask?

Edited December 24, 2013 by AnyaNova

[Els]

Way to kick someone when they're down, and if you'll do your research you'll find that economic upward mobility is rapidly diminishing. It is becoming less and less possible, despite the myth of the American Draam.

 

I'm not even talking about America. I literally know people who were born in straw houses without running water or electricity, who had to work multiple jobs while going to school to help the family out or didn't even make it to school, and yet who made a way for themselves in the world and are living and earning comfortably now. What does that say about the human spirit?

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you misunderstand mine. As far as I can see, the OP was not asking for suggestions on what he could do to improve himself. He was listing economic poverty as a comparison and asking, "Do you think the same applies to other types of 'poverty'? Is it true that those of us who are lacking are doomed to such the rest of our lives?". To me, the answer is, "No", because even economic poverty, perhaps the hardest lack to overcome, has clearly been overcome.

 

Frankly, I think you are oversensitive, if you took offense to my (very on-topic) post. I have offered the suggestions you mention to the OP when his thread topic asked for it. He is free to confirm or deny that if he likes.

[FrankieFrank]

It would be nice if it did however the actions are quite different aren't they? We don't French kiss our family. We don't crotch kiss our family. We don't embrace our family in coitus unless they are our spouse.

This is what happens when a child is isolated with no human contact.

Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Notably those children lacked ANY human contact during their youngest years (sub 10), so it's not like problem is that they were depraved of French or crotch kissing specifically, is it?

 

In fact PRESENCE of such contact at such young age would most definitely cause problems. It's called sexual molestation.

[AnyaNova]

I'm not even talking about America. I literally know people who were born in straw houses without running water or electricity, who had to work multiple jobs while going to school to help the family out or didn't even make it to school, and yet who made a way for themselves in the world and are living and earning comfortably now. What does that say about the human spirit?

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you misunderstand mine. As far as I can see, the OP was not asking for suggestions on what he could do to improve himself. He was listing economic poverty as a comparison and asking, "Do you think the same applies to other types of 'poverty'? Is it true that those of us who are lacking are doomed to such the rest of our lives?". To me, the answer is, "No", because even economic poverty, perhaps the hardest lack to overcome, has clearly been overcome.

 

Frankly, I think you are oversensitive, if you took offense to my (very on-topic) post. I have offered the suggestions you mention to the OP when his thread topic asked for it. He is free to confirm or deny that if he likes.

 

As a double p.k., I've had years when I was growing up to observe interactions, to observe people when they are hurting, and more hours than I cared to admit when i lived with my parents as a kid, sitting silently in my room off of the living room, sitting silently and listening (because I knew that the people wanted and needed to feel like they were alone with whichever pastor--mom or dad--they were talking to, and I knew that any sound of turning pages of a book, me moving around, or listening to music would destroy the lillusion they needed to have, this is something I chose to do, not something they ever would have asked of me) but anyway, listening to people who are hurting and hearing effective means of helping them work through their feelings.

 

Yes, for my personality type I can often be really thick, and not really pick up what people are feeling (although some good Ekman study really helps with that), but I have observed enough to know that this OP wasn't just aski a purely theoretical question. Especially in context wih his other posts.

 

It is not a matter of being over-sensitive.

 

It is a matter of me seeing a totally ineffective and unhelpful strategy being utilized, particularly one that allows the person who posted it to feel better in some way (whether in your case it made you feel better because it allowed you to have more optimism since you see yourself as being more positive, whether you feel your positive attitude got you an SO and it allowed you to feel like you justified your viewpoint, or whether there was an air of self superiority to it, I will not speculate).

 

But geez. For most of my life, you practically had to smack me over he head to get me to notice that someone was feelin something, and even I could tell that here is more to this thread than an interesting comparison and a discussion of it's accuracy.

 

But also that kind of bromide is equivalent to another thing I saw growing up. Idiot adults telling kids who had just lost parents that God needed their parent in heaven more. Hopefully, you can see the problem with that.

 

To me it seemed clear that the OP in this instance was looking for confirmation that he wasn't the only one who felt like that.

 

But the whole bootstraps argument in any context essentily exists to lay the blame for whatever condition one finds themselves in at the one who finds themselves in it and offer vindication and perhaps, but not always, self-superiority to the ones who don't.

 

So. Salt. Wound. Et cetera.

[AnyaNova]

I'm not even talking about America. I literally know people who were born in straw houses without running water or electricity, who had to work multiple jobs while going to school to help the family out or didn't even make it to school, and yet who made a way for themselves in the world and are living and earning comfortably now. What does that say about the human spirit?

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you misunderstand mine. As far as I can see, the OP was not asking for suggestions on what he could do to improve himself. He was listing economic poverty as a comparison and asking, "Do you think the same applies to other types of 'poverty'? Is it true that those of us who are lacking are doomed to such the rest of our lives?". To me, the answer is, "No", because even economic poverty, perhaps the hardest lack to overcome, has clearly been overcome.

 

Frankly, I think you are oversensitive, if you took offense to my (very on-topic) post. I have offered the suggestions you mention to the OP when his thread topic asked for it. He is free to confirm or deny that if he likes.

 

After reading another one of his posts with more info, you might actually be right as far as this just being an interesting comparison. I think some of his other posts I had read previously caused me to mistype him.

 

But still, even if you know people in other countries who have done this, in many cases it is exceptional. It is not something that everyone can do or even has the tools to begin.

 

As to whether the analogy is accurate, I think that given the less than infinite number of people of the particular gender one is interested in, from a definitional standpoint, the economics of scarcity play in (even if that mentality is one that is detrimental to one's goal of obtaining a mate), and there is a similar combination of what you were born with and what you can do with what you have.

 

The Analogy, to my mind, seems accurate enough, if again, not useful in actually finding a mate.