Theory: Average looking people have the hardest time dating.

[kodakgirl]

Those are all true but what prompts people to start dating? What makes you approach the man who's a 6'5", broad shouldered, chisled muscular masculine hunk...instead of a 5'4" bespectacled, pasty, flabby guy.

 

I wouldn't approach either-- I'd go for the 5'7" average looking guy with the air of enthusiasm and contagious smile!

 

Appearance, I feel, is about much more than looks. The appearance of the "hunk" means he almost certainly spends a lot of time at the gym, and that it is almost certainly one his his major interests. That's totally valid, but I personally am not very interested in someone whose major interests is bulking up at the gym (he, in turn, probably isn't very interested in someone with my interests-- goes both ways!). We almost certainly have different priorities in life, and I've found priorities to be one of the most important places to have a match.

 

Same for the "pasty flabby guy". 5'4" doesn't matter to me (I'd actually prefer it over 6'5"-- I'm only 5'2" myself!). By "flabby" I imagine you mean overweight and very lacking in muscle tone-- this indicates he does not put a lot of effort into fitness at the very least, maybe not diet and health generally. I'm not a crazy fitness nut but especially due to certain medical conditions I have I think it is very very important to treasure good health when you have it and work hard to maintain it. I feel someone who never or very rarely exercises isn't doing this. I also really like a bit of outdoorsiness in a guy (outdoorsy academics are my favourite), so while "pasty" isn't a total-write off (I'm pretty pale naturally) it isn't a strike in his favour to me.

 

Now, I could be totally wrong about both these guys, of course, but we're talking about "what first draws your eye", right? So that is why neither of them would draw my eye-- the way I see their personalities reflected in their appearance. The first time I saw my ex I thought immediately "he is the type I would date"-- he isn't especially good-looking (a touch above average, perhaps, but that's it) but he had a wonderful smile, and expressive face, and enthusiastic eyes... and that's what will kill me every time.

 

So anyway, the conclusion of this all is while I see your OP point in a way, I feel it's just all so much more complex than just looks.

[ThaWholigan]

I do not think it's necessarily looks that always make it difficult for people in dating. It can be people's attitudes regarding looks.

[CrystalCastles]

Who's assuming that? I am to OP and my OP says the oppostie of that.

 

 

In fact my theory is that someone like you would be single for the very reasons you list. You are high average looking not HOT but not average. Educated in an intimidating field. That you are single is no surprise.

 

 

Many men find you intimidating and the few hotter more accomplished men may over look you too.

 

 

You are the kind of person I was writing about.

 

First part: I wasn't addressing your OP. I was addressing some other post someone said. Can't remember which one.

 

Bolded: And how would you know that? For all we know, I could be a prepubescent 13 year old boy covered in acne who is making things up. You don't know until you see a pic.

 

And why would the more accomplished men overlook me? I would think that accomplished men would want an accomplished woman. From my experience, accomplished men are so ridiculously picky, I could crap rainbows and they'd still not be impressed!

 

What kind of person am I? I know I'm pretty aggressive on here, but I find that's just my nature. I usually have to be aggressive otherwise I tend to be dismissed. My (male) profs all talk rudely to me, for example (unlike to my male peers). That is, until I get the highest marks in the class on assignments and midterms, and their attitudes change after that. I find the female profs in my faculty are just as aggressive. I can see how that would be off-putting to men who would want to approach me, however.

[CrystalCastles]

I'm an average female and always had a hard time getting dates. I figure it's because I just sorta blend in with the millions of other decent and normal and average women in the world. It wasn't until I finally joined OLD that I was able to get a date and meet a guy who is really great for me.

 

I think that good looking, average, and unattractive people all will have their own different difficulties though. Gorgeous people might be intimidating, average people get lost in a sea of averageness, and unattractive people are gonna have a smaller pool of options.

 

 

And of course, it's all subjective.

 

No Phoe, you're much better than average! You're really pretty! I think all the guys in your area need to invest in some glasses.

[FrankieFrank]

No Phoe, you're much better than average! You're really pretty! I think all the guys in your area need to invest in some glasses.

 

Or people on the internet need to stop believing in everything that's written around

[hotpotato]

I think average women do just fine dating. I can tell you from experience and even from here many men just dont want women who look too far above average.

 

I'm not so sure about average looking men though.

[salparadise]

And why would the more accomplished men overlook me? I would think that accomplished men would want an accomplished woman. From my experience, accomplished men are so ridiculously picky, I could crap rainbows and they'd still not be impressed!

 

What kind of person am I? I know I'm pretty aggressive on here, but I find that's just my nature. I usually have to be aggressive otherwise I tend to be dismissed.

 

I think accomplished men often want a smart woman, but not necessarily one with tons of drive and ambition. They may want someone who complements them rather than being similar and competing. Being smart and high drive are the masculine qualities they identify with... I'm sure a good number are seeking nurturing or subordinate qualities in a woman. Someone to be president of their fan club rather than having a fan club herself.

 

It's easy for a smart, focused woman to exhibit too much masculine energy. I think men want to feel safe and comfortable, not challenged. I dated a woman for a few months who was genius-smart and highly accomplished with a high income. She had way too much masculine energy and as much as she would have liked to, she couldn't let it go.

 

She assumes she's right and has the correct perspective, so there's really not much to talk about... she either already knows whatever you're about to say or she has a different perspective, the correct one, in which case she will either issue a correction or silently judge. And then after awhile you figure out that she thinks you're dead wrong about certain things but she's been holding back, as opposed to her respecting other ways of being, thinking, feeling. She's decisive and has strong preferences about everything, yet she wants a man to take charge... but there is no way a mortal man could get everything exactly right. What man in his right mind would want to be yoked to such a woman?

 

She even realizes what she's doing, but she can't turn it off. It's kind of sad, actually. So I'm not saying this is you Chrystal, just an anecdotal data point for you to consider.

[Lethe]

It sucks to be a woman if you are accomplished. I get if someone is bossy or a know it all it can be a turnoff (and you dont have to be accomplished to have those traits), but I know alot of accomplished women who are nice in their personal relationships and arent too dominating who have problems.

 

Alot of men are either insecure and or have big egos and cannot handle a strong woman. Strong women are less likely to tend to their egos and act like they live for the man. Traditional or overall submissive women are more willing to do these things. Men have had the upperhand for most of human existence and dont like having to give up power. They prefer a submissive woman so they can reap the benefits more than women. Men do desire a fan club...while if a woman desires a fan club she is high maintainence or a "princess" or has unrealistic expectations. Society is still set up to favor men, the social equality thing has not yet developed enough so that accomplished women (who arent bossy or know it alls of course) wont be judged. There are a few rare men who are more liberal who wont be like this. My brother is one.

 

Or, move to New Zealand or the Netherlands. You wouldnt have a problem there because theyve evolved socially more.

 

Nonsense.

 

Occam's Razor states that when considering the efficacy of a number of competing hypotheses, the one that requires the fewest assumptions is the one that should be selected.

 

Your claim, namely that a lot of men who don't live in NZ or the Netherlands are intimidated by "strong women," (whatever that means), is predicated on a whole host of largely unverifiable assumptions. What's your reasoning for claiming that insecurity or ego drives these men to dislike what you call (but which you fail to define) "strong women?" What's a strong woman?

 

Again, nonsense. The real reason a guy calls a woman a "bitch" isn't because she's a "strong woman" who is just asserting her viewpoint. Usually it's because she was just plain being a bitch. Why? Because that conclusion requires the fewest assumptions. Usually, the real reason a woman didn't get a promotion as opposed to a man is because the man was more qualified for the position, and not because men who are in the workplace "felt threatened by her." Why? Same reason as before.

 

Society nowadays has made it too easy for women to blame their foibles and failures on men supposedly being threatened by them or not taking them seriously. Maybe you really are a bitch, maybe you really didn't measure up to a male job candidate, maybe you really were unreasonable in your dealings with past significant others. But of course, it's easier to externalize fault, especially when society sanctions it.

[William]

We're discussing why average looking people have the hardest time dating, so take the threadjack about feminism and social dynamics elsewhere. Thanks!

[MissBee]

No it's not - I suspect he/she tried to establish some sort of general or averaged scale. Which in all honesty still makes more sense than any individual examples, despite it's obvious flaws. It might be true that person A doesn't find person B attractive but what does that matter if person C to Z do? Beauty is subjective but it's not random.

 

If it's not his scale whose is it? Exactly what controlled criteria did he use to arrive at this scale?

 

I understand that culturally, which every culture is also not an American or Eurocentric one, may have certain ideals so we can judge looks based on it, but at the end of the day in dating it still comes down to what individual people find attractive.

 

And again thinking someone looks good or is a 10 or whatever the case might be still does NOT mean you're attracted to them. Which is the part no one seems to address and the most important part of all. You can agree or believe that culturally person A is someone who fits a certain society and time period's standard of beautiful (as yes the standards change throughout time and across cultures) but you may feel no strong desire to sleep with or be with this person even though you can acknowledge they are good looking. Attraction is not only a looks kind of deal.

[MissBee]

Those are all true but what prompts people to start dating? What makes you approach the man who's a 6'5", broad shouldered, chisled muscular masculine hunk...instead of a 5'4" bespectacled, pasty, flabby guy.

 

You're assuming this woman does this, but you have no clue if she really does.

 

I don't really approach men to begin with so even the whole "approach" scenario wouldn't work for me or many women.

 

Dating happens for lots of reasons and in lots of ways...you seem to have omitted how many dating occurs: already being acquainted with someone through your social circle and thus already knowing something about them besides how they look. A LOT, if not most, dating, esp in the past, happens in that way and isn't a random cold approach thing where you're chasing looks.

 

Not every woman is attracted to muscular "hunks"...I am incredulous that people really believe this. My girlfriends and I have men we agree on but generally we all have our preferences and what one gf thinks is gorgeous another may not necessarily think this. I can be attracted to all kinds of looks. I am not simply attracted to some stereotypical look that people assume every woman is supposed to like. Every man I have dated has been good looking TO ME and maybe to other people as well, but they all looked different and were not all some 6'5 chiseled "hunk", yet attractive nevertheless.

Edited December 26, 2013 by MissBee

[CrystalCastles]

 

She assumes she's right and has the correct perspective, so there's really not much to talk about... she either already knows whatever you're about to say or she has a different perspective, the correct one, in which case she will either issue a correction or silently judge. And then after awhile you figure out that she thinks you're dead wrong about certain things but she's been holding back, as opposed to her respecting other ways of being, thinking, feeling. She's decisive and has strong preferences about everything, yet she wants a man to take charge... but there is no way a mortal man could get everything exactly right. What man in his right mind would want to be yoked to such a woman?

 

She even realizes what she's doing, but she can't turn it off. It's kind of sad, actually. So I'm not saying this is you Chrystal, just an anecdotal data point for you to consider.

 

Why is that sad? You make it sound like it's something terrible. I don't want to turn this into a feminism argument, but not every woman is going to lap up everything her man says. Not every woman is going to agree with her man's word and treat it like the bible.

 

A strongly-opinionated and decisive woman would be a complement to a man, I would think. It's fun to engage in intelligent debates, and any man I've ever gone on dates with seemed to enjoy that. My dates liked it when I presented angles or arguments that they hadn't thought of. I suppose it depends on what you're arguing. If it's not a black and white issue, there's a lot to talk about.

 

Maybe men should stop feeling so challenged by women. There's nothing wrong with an accomplished woman in a male-dominated field. Just because she isn't willing to get down and massage your feet doesn't mean she isn't date-worthy.

[CrystalCastles]

Or people on the internet need to stop believing in everything that's written around

 

Exactly! Maybe they should stop assuming things too. I seem to recall you're guilty of that- "You are high average looking not HOT but not average".

 

[CrystalCastles]

Attraction is not only a looks kind of deal.

 

Well said! There are many levels of what attraction is: physical, emotional, intellectual. At least, from personal experience, I've been attracted to men who have embodied at least one of these three. People often talk about looks because that's the easiest to see right away. Emotional and intellectual qualities are not obvious until you get to know someone.

[John316C]

It goes like this from easiest to hardest

 

 

1.)Hot girl

2.)Average girl

3.)Hot guy

4.)Ugly girl

5.)Average guy

6.)Ugly guy

 

thats the feminist model its flawed, believe it or not

[RedRobin]

The example I would come up with in men would be the Brad Pitts and David Bowies of the world. Unless they meet, like, and marry an Angelina Jolie or Iman looking woman they ain't getting married (Even Bowies first wife was petty hot.). Fun fact Bowie and Iman were set up by a friend for their first date. So super hot people can have trouble finding someone too.

 

 

 

to be fair... I think both of them are fairly well matched in looks with their partners.

 

 

OTOH, Angelina seems to have some weird issues. Her choice of partners has seemed a bit off in the past. I think her and Brad got together because they share similar world views.

 

 

I was looking at the age difference between both of those couples too... and thinking about all of the older men who have been chasing me lately. Some very accomplished and some might say handsome men... but are 8-12 years older than me... Which I won't do.

 

 

*shrug* Yep... finding someone is all about where you set the bar and what you are willing to compromise on. That's true for everyone.

[RedRobin]

It sucks to be a woman if you are accomplished. I get if someone is bossy or a know it all it can be a turnoff (and you dont have to be accomplished to have those traits), but I know alot of accomplished women who are nice in their personal relationships and arent too dominating who have problems.

 

Alot of men are either insecure and or have big egos and cannot handle a strong woman. Strong women are less likely to tend to their egos and act like they live for the man. Traditional or overall submissive women are more willing to do these things. Men have had the upperhand for most of human existence and dont like having to give up power. They prefer a submissive woman so they can reap the benefits more than women. Men do desire a fan club...while if a woman desires a fan club she is high maintainence or a "princess" or has unrealistic expectations. Society is still set up to favor men, the social equality thing has not yet developed enough so that accomplished women (who arent bossy or know it alls of course) wont be judged. There are a few rare men who are more liberal who wont be like this. My brother is one.

 

Or, move to New Zealand or the Netherlands. You wouldnt have a problem there because theyve evolved socially more.

 

 

I agree with you. Scandinavian countries tend not to have these issues either. The prime minister of Denmark is a woman... and also quite the looker.

 

 

Notice the hubbub about her over the selfies though... Just goes to show that in other parts of the world, she's viewed a whole lot differently and is held to a different standard than her male counterparts.

 

 

Also note though, that she IS married (to a man who is four years younger) and has two children.

 

 

My heritage is Scandinavian... all the women in my family are strong and happily married to confident men who don't need a submissive little wifey to make themselves feel like a man. They are partners.

[salparadise]

Why is that sad? You make it sound like it's something terrible. I don't want to turn this into a feminism argument, but not every woman is going to lap up everything her man says. Not every woman is going to agree with her man's word and treat it like the bible.

 

It's sad because she can't get what she wants, can't be how she'd like to be, can't sustain a relationship because nobody wants to put up with a know-it-all, judgmental attitude combined with that over-the-top masculine energy. She really wants to express her femininity and have a relationship with a strong yet gentle man, but the reality is that only a submissive would be compatible––she can't help being the way she is, and it clashes. So, yea I think it's sad that she'll probably be lonely. She seems to be missing a certain female quality that's key to forming attachments. When I quit seeing her I wasn't even upset––just shrugged my shoulders and thought what a shame. She has everything she wants except one thing, and it's a biggie.

 

A strongly-opinionated and decisive woman would be a complement to a man, I would think. It's fun to engage in intelligent debates, and any man I've ever gone on dates with seemed to enjoy that. My dates liked it when I presented angles or arguments that they hadn't thought of. I suppose it depends on what you're arguing. If it's not a black and white issue, there's a lot to talk about.

 

It's not really about that. I love intelligent women who are firm in their beliefs, rational, able to see things from multiple perspectives and argue a point (without getting emotional)... these are not mutually exclusive. But what I'm describing in this particular woman exists separately.

 

Maybe men should stop feeling so challenged by women. There's nothing wrong with an accomplished woman in a male-dominated field. Just because she isn't willing to get down and massage your feet doesn't mean she isn't date-worthy.

 

Maybe. Or maybe women should not be so challenging and confrontational, or feel like being female makes them entitled to have it both ways. And who said anything about massaging feet, or subservience if that's what you mean? The key to this issue is understanding that a woman can have both femininity and competency. She may need to check the femininity at the boardroom door to succeed in that arena, but remember that it's a key ingredient and needs to be expressed in her personal life and relationships. Sometimes women create their own Catch-22... "I want you to man-up and be the dominant partner in this relationship, and if you don't do as I say I'm going to castrate your sorry ass."

[Revolver]

thats the feminist model its flawed, believe it or not

 

I'm not a feminist but I see this in real life

[Revolver]

Nonsense.

 

Occam's Razor states that when considering the efficacy of a number of competing hypotheses, the one that requires the fewest assumptions is the one that should be selected.

 

Your claim, namely that a lot of men who don't live in NZ or the Netherlands are intimidated by "strong women," (whatever that means), is predicated on a whole host of largely unverifiable assumptions. What's your reasoning for claiming that insecurity or ego drives these men to dislike what you call (but which you fail to define) "strong women?" What's a strong woman?

 

Again, nonsense. The real reason a guy calls a woman a "bitch" isn't because she's a "strong woman" who is just asserting her viewpoint. Usually it's because she was just plain being a bitch. Why? Because that conclusion requires the fewest assumptions. Usually, the real reason a woman didn't get a promotion as opposed to a man is because the man was more qualified for the position, and not because men who are in the workplace "felt threatened by her." Why? Same reason as before.

 

Society nowadays has made it too easy for women to blame their foibles and failures on men supposedly being threatened by them or not taking them seriously. Maybe you really are a bitch, maybe you really didn't measure up to a male job candidate, maybe you really were unreasonable in your dealings with past significant others. But of course, it's easier to externalize fault, especially when society sanctions it.

 

Well I hate this idea that men are these evil oppressors who are holding them back and all females problems and issues are the result of men. It's bad because it's not true and average men get the majority of the blame and in the grand scheme of things they have zero power to effect anything

[Absinthe]

I've always thought that hot women have a harder time than us average ones. Of my female friends who are stunning, they seem to have a very hard time finding men who care for them past what they look like. They also get a LOT of delusional and downright crazy "admirers".

 

Many of my fellow averagers are already married and/or have kids and we are in our mid twenties.

 

I've had some distinctly middle-of-the-road experiences. Largely, I seem to be in the camp of "worth a tap, but nothing special".

[hotpotato]

I've always thought that hot women have a harder time than us average ones. Of my female friends who are stunning, they seem to have a very hard time finding men who care for them past what they look like. They also get a LOT of delusional and downright crazy "admirers".

 

Many of my fellow averagers are already married and/or have kids and we are in our mid twenties.

 

I've had some distinctly middle-of-the-road experiences. Largely, I seem to be in the camp of "worth a tap, but nothing special".

 

Yep. Hot women are more likely to get the crazy dudes-stalkers, admirers in love after a few calls/texts/messages...

[hotpotato]

All the hot women I know constantly have dating options. They have it easier. Men are ruled by their d***s unfortunately, so whoever is the hottest as a woman will have the most options. Most guys would dump their average looking girlfriend for a hot chick if they knew she was def. interested and that they could keep her around.

 

Hasn't been my experience...Many guys will come to me for sex then turn around and marry and average woman.

[Eau Claire]

Just about everyone I know over the age of 21 has been in a relationship. Most more than one. Doesn't seem that dating is all that much of a challenge.

 

All those kids back in high school managed to get a driver's license, a job, a partner...even the ones that were not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Males and females come in more or less even numbers.

[Absinthe]

Hasn't been my experience...Many guys will come to me for sex then turn around and marry and average woman.

 

I've had the same, actually.

 

I've even had a guy flat out tell me I wasn't The One for him, but can we keep on living together and having sex anyway? I mean...wow.