Why is the MM always the bad person?

[lilmisscantbewrong]

Yes, this is very true. I very much dislike the dishonest life. I also agree its not authentic.. It's putting a bandaid on things, and takes a huge toll.

But... I don't agree that my MM is dishonest.. Or that either of us are unauthentic. I am the director of 2 companies, I don't tell my competitors what I plan to do, I work my business on a need to know basis, does that make me inauthentic?

 

 

 

This makes no sense (I am a FMOW and a BS). So you are saying you are in competition with the BS? Well - I guess if you are looking at it like that, then I suppose any sort of stealth game will do. In the end, it is still dishonest - there is no way around it. I would never tell someone how to run their business, but I might choose not to do business with them if I feel they are unethical in the way the run it and I know they are.

 

 

And if you think MM is not being dishonest, you are fooling yourself. I did for a very long time. There are a few (and I do mean a very few) that eventually do the "right thing" and either leave their wives or leave their affair, but to be in both is to be dishonest - unless it's an open marriage where all parties know what is going on. If it is not, then someone is being deceived - there is not way around it. And it's not cool at all.

 

 

And this is coming from someone who participated in it fully.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

Iil,

 

Agree with the last line, and seen it with the friend that isn't divorced yet. I'd suspect that's a very difficult life to live. While the A couple seems pretty honest to each other, doing so with others could be pretty challenging.

The original point was the the MM was often the bad guy, and I'm just not sure that's correct. Too many factors.

 

 

It's impossible.

[Aspasia33]

Egads!!! I have no idea where you got the idea I'm in completion with his wife?

Or I am playing a stealth game? That may be your experiance but it sure as hell is not mine.

And I'm sorry that your mm lied to you, but that doesn't mean mine does. Your views and experiences are just that. Yours.

And I do not want my mm to leave his wife. Again you are confusing my experiences with yours.

And the original post was why are NM painted as the bad guy?

I think I gave my view on that.

I'm also not sure what world you live in, but I know of 10 mm personally in real life who left their marriages for their Ow( my fiancée amongst them) and have been happily married for many years. They don't post here, as they are to busy living there real lives.

 

This makes no sense (I am a FMOW and a BS). So you are saying you are in competition with the BS? Well - I guess if you are looking at it like that, then I suppose any sort of stealth game will do. In the end, it is still dishonest - there is no way around it. I would never tell someone how to run their business, but I might choose not to do business with them if I feel they are unethical in the way the run it and I know they are.

 

 

And if you think MM is not being dishonest, you are fooling yourself. I did for a very long time. There are a few (and I do mean a very few) that eventually do the "right thing" and either leave their wives or leave their affair, but to be in both is to be dishonest - unless it's an open marriage where all parties know what is going on. If it is not, then someone is being deceived - there is not way around it. And it's not cool at all.

 

 

And this is coming from someone who participated in it fully.

[ComingInHot]

... and yet, here you are...

The people cheating are doing harm to the BS so they are acting badly until they are no longer cheating. In a "good A (per some) or not.

 

Note: posting here doesn't mean one isn't living in "the real world". Just like having an A isn't living in the real worl. (Did I say that right??)**

[findingnemo]

But can't one be honest and still be a bad guy?

[Got it]

I didn't see him as any more responsible than me but we were also both originally married so I think on similar playing fields.

 

But in regards to honesty, my fMM and I have always been brutally honest with each other. I do not surmise that all situations are the same but what I have found so unique with him is that I have been able to be fully me which up to that point had compartmentalized myself with others.

 

We are married now and we do not have trust issues. It doesn't mean that we have unrealistic viewpoints and I fully understand that one should never assume someone will not become different, change, cheat, etc. but it isn't something that I have a major concern. We have been very transparent with each other and continue to be so.

 

So I think the MM always beign the bad guy is wrong because one it is a gender assumption which bothers me. But two, because it is on a "it depends" basis.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

But... I don't agree that my MM is dishonest.. Or that either of us are unauthentic. I am the director of 2 companies, I don't tell my competitors what I plan to do, I work my business on a need to know basis, does that make me inauthentic?

 

You used it as a comparison - not letting competitors knowing what you plan to do - this is what made no sense to me - as if you were not letting your MM know or his BS know what you "plan to do". That's where I got it.

 

 

Being in an affair is dishonest, no matter how you slice it or dice it - period. There is SOMEONE you are being dishonest with (and when I say "you" I mean anyone in an affair). You can't have honesty in an affair - you have to lie to someone at some point, unless you are in an open marriage.

 

 

So, at some point MM was dishonest with someone until he got out (if that happened).

[findingnemo]

The more people post the more I realize that it is quite easy to label people in As as bad people because it is more obvious. In order to keep two women, the MM must lie to one of them. In the Western world, there is a strong belief in monogamy...in the idea that a H belongs to his W and vice versa. In my culture it is quite possible for a MM to be honest with the OW. However, he is also honest with the W and a silent agreement is reached. The W does her thing and expects the H to remain responsible and do his duty. The OW has her expectations and is publicly acknowledged to exist. She ceases to be a OW and becomes a second W.

 

I don't understand why in sexless Ms, for example, such a situation isn't envisaged as a solution in the West. It is ridiculous to D your W or H because of lack of intimacy and yet there is a family involved. But it is equally ridiculous for any person to expect their spouse to live with little or no sex for the rest of their lives. It is ridiculous to get a D because your spouse has developed mental problems. But it is equally ridiculous for someone with serious problems to expect their spouse not to find another partner who he is more compatible with. It doesn't mean he must destroy his family and home.

 

So while many MMs are "bad guys", there are number who are just normal people trying to find a balance between meeting their own needs and those of their families.

[stillafool]

Stillafool,

 

Lots of reasons... the M might have been broken down years ago and the MM feels no obligation to be honest if the BS hasn't been either. The start of a new relationship allows one to be honest from the start, and if it's held up on both sides, perhaps it could work out fine, and the old M ended.

That can happen.

 

Why is it only the BSs obligation to be honest first? If the MM feels he cannot be honest, his marriage is over, he's met the OW of his dreams, then the correct move is to voice his displeasure, reveal his secret and divorce. MM who have met another woman, acknowledge their love for her and follow through with divorce are indeed in love and willing to prove it. This thread is about "Why is the MM always the bad person?". I'm saying he isn't the only one at fault and that the OW is as much at fault as he. I don't think OW are naive about what they are getting into one little bit. That raises the question; why if the MM is lying to his wife and another woman who knowingly gets involved with a MM has the audacity to think they deserve better? They knew what they were getting into when they decided to sex a MM. I think it's interesting that all the blame is placed on the MM but when it's a MW cheating she doesn't get the same flak as a man does. Even though most times the women are far more cunning when involved in an affair.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

Why is it only the BSs obligation to be honest first? If the MM feels he cannot be honest, his marriage is over, he's met the OW of his dreams, then the correct move is to voice his displeasure, reveal his secret and divorce. MM who have met another woman, acknowledge their love for her and follow through with divorce are indeed in love and willing to prove it. This thread is about "Why is the MM always the bad person?". I'm saying he isn't the only one at fault and that the OW is as much at fault as he. I don't think OW are naive about what they are getting into one little bit. That raises the question; why if the MM is lying to his wife and another woman who knowingly gets involved with a MM has the audacity to think they deserve better? They knew what they were getting into when they decided to sex a MM. I think it's interesting that all the blame is placed on the MM but when it's a MW cheating she doesn't get the same flak as a man does. Even though most times the women are far more cunning when involved in an affair.

 

 

 

Oh but she does - at least in my case. I took the big hit for it - completely. In MOST cases, the woman does take the hit and it has been that way for a very long time (remember the woman caught in adultery "the very act" in the bible and the men ready to stone her? I always wondered "where was the man if she was caught in the very act"). No, throughout history, the woman has always gotten the majority of the blame. How do you think a woman is far more cunning?? How is that?

[lilmisscantbewrong]

The more people post the more I realize that it is quite easy to label people in As as bad people because it is more obvious. In order to keep two women, the MM must lie to one of them. In the Western world, there is a strong belief in monogamy...in the idea that a H belongs to his W and vice versa. In my culture it is quite possible for a MM to be honest with the OW. However, he is also honest with the W and a silent agreement is reached. The W does her thing and expects the H to remain responsible and do his duty. The OW has her expectations and is publicly acknowledged to exist. She ceases to be a OW and becomes a second W.

 

I don't understand why in sexless Ms, for example, such a situation isn't envisaged as a solution in the West. It is ridiculous to D your W or H because of lack of intimacy and yet there is a family involved. But it is equally ridiculous for any person to expect their spouse to live with little or no sex for the rest of their lives. It is ridiculous to get a D because your spouse has developed mental problems. But it is equally ridiculous for someone with serious problems to expect their spouse not to find another partner who he is more compatible with. It doesn't mean he must destroy his family and home.

 

So while many MMs are "bad guys", there are number who are just normal people trying to find a balance between meeting their own needs and those of their families.

 

 

 

Nemo - you are right. It is cultural. This what I keep saying. If it is an open marriage and everyone knows what their roles are, I have no problem with it - I really don't. There was a time in my life when I would have, but not so much now. I was in New Orleans on a tour not long ago and I remember hearing about the slave mistresses that men had. They were actually taken care of and they had a right to an inheritance as well. It was quite an interesting history lesson.

[ComingInHot]

Stillafool, too true!

 

And as far as "bad person", it's unfortunate that people judge others based on their behavior and actions, but how else aside from discerning the behavior at the time in and of itself, it is what it is.

 

I say again (and last time I promise*) a ms cheating is definitely acting like a j*ckhole While he is cheating, just like someone is a thief While they are stealing and unethical while doing unethical practices etc... I also believe people can & Do change when their behavior changes For Good. Look at GotIt, they are no longer cheating and lying to anyone and in a healthy M from what is shown here. No longer a "bad person"**

[WasOtherWoman]

Not sure how anyone can argue the point that a MM AND the OW, while in an affair, are doing a bad thing (but are not necessarily bad people).

 

Who can really say that being in an affair, overall is a good thing?

[OldRover]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't regard the MM as a bad person.

To much emphasis is placed on the marriage in regards to this. I have been hurt , lied to and betrayed by non MM( my husband, ex fiancée, et)

Marriage is not the be all and end all.

 

However, as a MW, the " blame" for my affair is all mine. I am the one who promised to be faithful to my spouse And no matter the circumstances, I broke that promise.

I do feel guilt and remorse over that. I feel no guilt over my MM marriage, as I did not take vows with her, and I do not know her. However, I also don't want to hurt her.

There is no " evil" predator MM, and there is no "poor" victim Ow. The same as there is no witchy seductress temptress OW( except me, of course;)

We all make our own decisions, and being in love is no excuse to walk away from something that isn't working. Yes it hurts, but we live.

 

Aspasia,

 

You make a very good point.

 

There have been MANY couples that make the promise to be together forever, without a marriage certificate...... and there's the ones that do get married, and in both cases we have broken promises... and sometimes by one side and then the other. So, who is right/wrong?

 

We make promises based on what is known today and what we perceive will be in the future.... things change, and we change out minds, for whatever reason.... the other person got ugly, had an affair, spent too much, wasn't passionate.... fill in your own reason... and then there's a bunch of name calling and calling one a cheat, lier, low life, coward, etc., etc.

 

Should most of us wear that label? I'd bet the majority of us go thru this........

[lilmisscantbewrong]

Aspasia,

 

You make a very good point.

 

There have been MANY couples that make the promise to be together forever, without a marriage certificate...... and there's the ones that do get married, and in both cases we have broken promises... and sometimes by one side and then the other. So, who is right/wrong?

 

We make promises based on what is known today and what we perceive will be in the future.... things change, and we change out minds, for whatever reason.... the other person got ugly, had an affair, spent too much, wasn't passionate.... fill in your own reason... and then there's a bunch of name calling and calling one a cheat, lier, low life, coward, etc., etc.

 

Should most of us wear that label? I'd bet the majority of us go thru this........

 

There are many of us here that have broken our promises. That is not the point really.

 

The point is, no matter what - whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave for a life with your AP - you need to be authentic and honest. This is the only way.

 

Unfortunately many do not do this - they continue the lies because they either cannot make a decision (cowardly) or want their cake ( as?hole). When it comes down to it most men (most - not all) when dday hits, they throw their ow under the bus and stay with their BS for many reasons. Some women in affairs do the same, but majority of men do - it is a fact.

 

Bottom line is there is always dishonesty - period - no way to get around it.

 

This is why the label is there, like it or not.

[OldRover]

There are many of us here that have broken our promises. That is not the point really.

 

The point is, no matter what - whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave for a life with your AP - you need to be authentic and honest. This is the only way.

 

Unfortunately many do not do this - they continue the lies because they either cannot make a decision (cowardly) or want their cake ( as?hole). When it comes down to it most men (most - not all) when dday hits, they throw their ow under the bus and stay with their BS for many reasons. Some women in affairs do the same, but majority of men do - it is a fact.

 

Bottom line is there is always dishonesty - period - no way to get around it.

 

This is why the label is there, like it or not.

 

Lil,

 

Agreed, we should not be dishonest about our dishonesty.....

[SolG]

Some great posts here. Especially yours @CIH - insightful as ever. To me, CIH has hit the nail on the head. As adults, we always have free will and choice as to how we conduct ourselves. And actions we choose invariably have consequences. We are all responsible, whether we like it or not, for the consequences of our actions. As an OW who knew from the outset that my MM was married with children, I cannot abrogate the responsibility I have for impacting his primary relationship. I've been doing a lot of research since my MM's Dday about infidelity and marital issues, and there is no getting around it. His continued relationship with me will impact on his ability to reconcile in his primary relationship - putting aside his willingness or otherwise, our A still has an impact. I could leave any time I want... but I have chosen not to. So just as he must accept responsibility for the impact of his actions as a result of this affair that he chooses to continually participate in, so must I. Whether or not you believe he is a douche who future fakes, or a sorry excuse for a man, or whatever; that does not negate the fact that I the OW am as equally culpable as my MM.

[Popsicle]

There are many of us here that have broken our promises. That is not the point really.

 

The point is, no matter what - whether you want to stay in your marriage or leave for a life with your AP - you need to be authentic and honest. This is the only way.

 

Unfortunately many do not do this - they continue the lies because they either cannot make a decision (cowardly) or want their cake ( as?hole). When it comes down to it most men (most - not all) when dday hits, they throw their ow under the bus and stay with their BS for many reasons. Some women in affairs do the same, but majority of men do - it is a fact.

 

Bottom line is there is always dishonesty - period - no way to get around it.

 

This is why the label is there, like it or not.

 

Yep.........

[ComingInHot]

SoIG, I'm VERY Impressed with you. Smart lady here*

[SolG]

Thanks CIH :-) I can claim a certain intelligence and a flair for theoretical understanding. But unfortunately I fail at the real test of smartness; that is actual practical application! :-/

[Aspasia33]

If I have read rightly, after 5 years of trying to reconcile with his wife,(who did not seem interested in going to counseling or changing the marriage dynamics) Finally Settled left his marriage, and connected with his OW a year later. It also seems his wife did not want to be "freed" from such a bad dishonest lying guy.

 

So he has already addressed "that"

 

 

As states above, it was a general statement, and one that applied to most. That's great that you have been honest to at least one person.

 

So free your wife and be with your ow. Just because you don't lie to your ow at this time doesn't mean your not a liar or a coward. Until you start being an honest person, you are still falling in the realm of being a bad guy. What are you going to do about that?

[experiencethedevine]

Some thoughtful posts on this thread indeed. Perhaps I could throw this one in and you can all tell me what you think:

 

 

Other woman is single. She meets an interesting man through her work and decides she would like to persue the possibilities. She invites the man to have lunch/dinner/drinks with her and he accepts.

 

 

She knows he is married, as she has investigated him through mutual colleagues surreptitiously.

 

 

After their first meeting, the affair begins in earnest. She was married some time ago and divorced, has no children and would like her married man to leave his wife and family for her after declaring her love for him and her deservedness of his time and affections.

 

 

He tells her he loves her also, but will not leave his wife. She becomes more and more insistent and resorts to threats and blackmail to ensure continuation of the affair as her married man appears weak and malleable. He continues to bask in her attentions and reassures her of his affections though he is unwilling to relinquish having everything he could want (Ie, wife, children, home, lover) and enjoys the benefits of two separate existances fuelled by distance and lengthy separations as a result of his employment circumstances.

 

 

The other woman, simply, is determined to have the married man at any cost, she invades his privacy through hacking his personal email account, goes through his belongings every time he visits her home (to and from his work) before returning to his wife, uses information from his personal phone to gain leverage in her efforts and cleverly plots (because she witnesses communications and interactions between the married man and his wife so she knows that they are actively engaged in a healthy sex life, jointly responsible for activites in their family life and enjoying the trappings of all that appears 'healthy') and so has to make concerted effort to force the married man to leave.

 

 

The married man becomes increasingly disillusioned with the situation he has found himself in, has begun to scrape off the rosey tint through which he viewed his other woman, but has no intention of threatening his marriage by revealing his years of betrayal to his wife under the guise that she will throw him out which is what he does not want to happen, so he continues to delude himself that discovery will be made when he is a safe distance from his other woman having found some miracle way of getting rid of her without any consequences???

 

 

When dday (inevitably) arrives, the married man is surprised to find that his wife offers a choice. The other woman is convinced he will continue on................

 

 

Who is most responsible here? Who is the more deluded I wonder?

Edited December 30, 2013 by experiencethedevine

[Aspasia33]

And a quick question, in your hypothesis, how does OW know his email an phone password? dont you only do that with the ones you absolutely trust?

 

email

Some thoughtful posts on this thread indeed. Perhaps I could throw this one in and you can all tell me what you think:

 

 

Other woman is single. She meets an interesting man through her work and decides she would like to persue the possibilities. She invites the man to have lunch/dinner/drinks with her and he accepts.

 

 

She knows he is married, as she has investigated him through mutual colleagues surreptitiously.

 

 

After their first meeting, the affair begins in earnest. She was married some time ago and divorced, has no children and would like her married man to leave his wife and family for her after declaring her love for him and her deservedness of his time and affections.

 

 

He tells her he loves her also, but will not leave his wife. She becomes more and more insistent and resorts to threats and blackmail to ensure continuation of the affair as her married man appears weak and malleable. He continues to bask in her attentions and reassures her of his affections though he is unwilling to relinquish having everything he could want (Ie, wife, children, home, lover) and enjoys the benefits of two separate existances fuelled by distance and lengthy separations as a result of his employment circumstances.

 

 

The other woman, simply, is determined to have the married man at any cost, she invades his privacy through hacking his personal email account, goes through his belongings every time he visits her home (to and from his work) before returning to his wife, uses information from his personal phone to gain leverage in her efforts and cleverly plots (because she witnesses communications and interactions between the married man and his wife so she knows that they are actively engaged in a healthy sex life, jointly responsible for activites in their family life and enjoying the trappings of all that appears 'healthy') and so has to make concerted effort to force the married man to leave.

 

 

The married man becomes increasingly disillusioned with the situation he has found himself in, has begun to scrape off the rosey tint through which he viewed his other woman, but has no intention of threatening his marriage by revealing his years of betrayal to his wife under the guise that she will throw him out which is what he does not want to happen, so he continues to delude himself that discovery will be made when he is a safe distance from his other woman having found some miracle way of getting rid of her without any consequences???

 

 

When dday (inevitably) arrives, the married man is surprised to find that his wife offers a choice. The other woman is convinced he will continue on................

 

 

Who is most responsible here? Who is the more deluded I wonder?

[Got it]

Some thoughtful posts on this thread indeed. Perhaps I could throw this one in and you can all tell me what you think:

 

 

Other woman is single. She meets an interesting man through her work and decides she would like to persue the possibilities. She invites the man to have lunch/dinner/drinks with her and he accepts.

 

 

She knows he is married, as she has investigated him through mutual colleagues surreptitiously.

 

 

After their first meeting, the affair begins in earnest. She was married some time ago and divorced, has no children and would like her married man to leave his wife and family for her after declaring her love for him and her deservedness of his time and affections.

 

 

He tells her he loves her also, but will not leave his wife. She becomes more and more insistent and resorts to threats and blackmail to ensure continuation of the affair as her married man appears weak and malleable. He continues to bask in her attentions and reassures her of his affections though he is unwilling to relinquish having everything he could want (Ie, wife, children, home, lover) and enjoys the benefits of two separate existances fuelled by distance and lengthy separations as a result of his employment circumstances.

 

 

The other woman, simply, is determined to have the married man at any cost, she invades his privacy through hacking his personal email account, goes through his belongings every time he visits her home (to and from his work) before returning to his wife, uses information from his personal phone to gain leverage in her efforts and cleverly plots (because she witnesses communications and interactions between the married man and his wife so she knows that they are actively engaged in a healthy sex life, jointly responsible for activites in their family life and enjoying the trappings of all that appears 'healthy') and so has to make concerted effort to force the married man to leave.

 

 

The married man becomes increasingly disillusioned with the situation he has found himself in, has begun to scrape off the rosey tint through which he viewed his other woman, but has no intention of threatening his marriage by revealing his years of betrayal to his wife under the guise that she will throw him out which is what he does not want to happen, so he continues to delude himself that discovery will be made when he is a safe distance from his other woman having found some miracle way of getting rid of her without any consequences???

 

 

When dday (inevitably) arrives, the married man is surprised to find that his wife offers a choice. The other woman is convinced he will continue on................

 

 

Who is most responsible here? Who is the more deluded I wonder?

 

Is this fantasy or an actual synopsis of events? If this is fabrication then why the interest in spinning hypothetical opinions based on a very subjective combination of events, motives, and actions?

 

Basically who cares? I could then surmise that suddenly OW wins the lottery, finds her long last twin brother (that she didn't know about) when she realizes that her MM is actual said brother, and they end up having a fantastically large family union including their long lost cousin Elvis! :laugh:

[Aspasia33]

I saw Elvis at our supermarket today:)

 

Is this fantasy or an actual synopsis of events? If this is fabrication then why the interest in spinning hypothetical opinions based on a very subjective combination of events, motives, and actions?

 

Basically who cares? I could then surmise that suddenly OW wins the lottery, finds her long last twin brother (that she didn't know about) when she realizes that her MM is actual said brother, and they end up having a fantastically large family union including their long lost cousin Elvis! :laugh: