Islam VS Catholicism

[darkmoon]

look at the asylum seekers from war-torn Muslim countries fleeing to peaceful Christian countries, then decide, I mean to say, Muslims are blithely killing each other

Edited January 9, 2014 by darkmoon

[Scott Thomas]

So why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in Christian countries?

 

I am not sure about the United States, but some Western European countries are officially secular. A significant portion of the British population is either atheist or not religious.

 

But if I were to follow your statement, then please explain this:

 

1) During the reign if King Ferdinand, thousands of Jews and non-Catholics fled the inquisition and sought asylum in the Ottoman Empire.

 

2) Jesus taught peace, yet we have 2 World Wars and Colonialism.

My non-European students tend to remind me that non-white populations didn't ask Europeans/Americans to invade them and stay for a hundred years.

 

Teaching history has taught me that a number of third-world conflicts stem from the aftereffects if European colonial rule (Palestine, Congo, Kashmir, Vietnam, and even Korea which was conveniently divided at the 38 th parallel as respective Soviet and Allied spheres of influence).

 

On a further note, Sky Addict, Voltaire once said that the mark on an intolerant person is that he/she can't stand anyone expressing a sentiment that they don't agree with. Please refrain from attacking posters by suggesting that they don't know what they're talking about when you've never met them and have no clue about their individual experiences. We're here to engage in a meaningful exchange, no need to fight.

[Emilia]

Both are about controlling people and converting. Hence the global conflict.

[skydiveaddict]

@skyaddict: You know nothing about me so slow your roll.

 

Yea I do know about people like you. That's what angers me. You talking your bull**** when you have never set a boot on the ground over there; and then telling me you know what it is like.

[darkmoon]

I am not sure about the United States, but some Western European countries are officially secular. A significant portion of the British population is either atheist or not religious.

 

But if I were to follow your statement, then please explain this:

 

1) During the reign if King Ferdinand, thousands of Jews and non-Catholics fled the inquisition and sought asylum in the Ottoman Empire.

 

2) Jesus taught peace, yet we have 2 World Wars and Colonialism.

My non-European students tend to remind me that non-white populations didn't ask Europeans/Americans to invade them and stay for a hundred years.

 

Teaching history has taught me that a number of third-world conflicts stem from the aftereffects if European colonial rule (Palestine, Congo, Kashmir, Vietnam, and even Korea which was conveniently divided at the 38 th parallel as respective Soviet and Allied spheres of influence).

 

On a further note, Sky Addict, Voltaire once said that the mark on an intolerant person is that he/she can't stand anyone expressing a sentiment that they don't agree with. Please refrain from attacking posters by suggesting that they don't know what they're talking about when you've never met them and have no clue about their individual experiences. We're here to engage in a meaningful exchange, no need to fight.

 

 

yes, you're right on both I) and 2) those lapsed Christians can be awful, ignoring Christ's ways, so all the more reason to ask, twice now - why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in Christian countries?

Edited January 9, 2014 by darkmoon

[Scott Thomas]

look at the asylum seekers from war-torn Muslim countries fleeing to peaceful Christian countries, then decide, I mean to say, Muslims are blithely killing each other

 

Peaceful?

 

The slave trade.

 

Spain's colonisation of Mayans and Incas-more than a million natives dead.

 

The thirty years war in Germany between Protestants and Catholics- wipes out 30% of the population.

 

The wars of the French Revolution, Napoleons's attempts to dominate Europe.

 

The wars of Italian and German unification.

 

Colonisation (and the blatant enslavement of Asia and Africa)

 

World war 1 and World War 2: Europe destroyed, innocents killed in concentration camps.

 

The Cold War and it's proxy battlefields, along with the threat if two superpowers destroying the world without giving a thought to what the rest if mankind would suffer as a result of nuclear fallout.

 

And I haven't even mentioned the small conflicts that periodically sparked tensions.

 

Yep, 'Christian' countries seem pretty damn peaceful. Would you pick a calculator and compute a number to reflect these casualties. Mine suggests that the casualties from these conflicts outnumber the number of people Muslims have killed throughout history.

So, just how exactly are we more peaceful? Maybe after the fall of the USSR, but before that?

[Scott Thomas]

yes, you're right on both I) and 2) those lapsed Christians can be awful, ignoring Christ's ways, so all the more reason to ask, twice now - why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in Christian countries?

 

Lapsed Christians?

 

More than a hundred million people dead.

Yet you brush this off as a casual mistake, something similar to dropping a glass if water. So the entire European continent (along with our brethren across the ocean) erred during the past 500 years but have returned to Christ? Seems a pretty convenient change of beliefs.

[GorillaTheater]

Peaceful?

 

The slave trade.

 

Spain's colonisation of Mayans and Incas-more than a million natives dead.

 

The thirty years war in Germany between Protestants and Catholics- wipes out 30% of the population.

 

The wars of the French Revolution, Napoleons's attempts to dominate Europe.

 

The wars of Italian and German unification.

 

Colonisation (and the blatant enslavement of Asia and Africa)

 

World war 1 and World War 2: Europe destroyed, innocents killed in concentration camps.

 

The Cold War and it's proxy battlefields, along with the threat if two superpowers destroying the world without giving a thought to what the rest if mankind would suffer as a result of nuclear fallout.

 

And I haven't even mentioned the small conflicts that periodically sparked tensions.

 

Yep, 'Christian' countries seem pretty damn peaceful. Would you pick a calculator and compute a number to reflect these casualties. Mine suggests that the casualties from these conflicts outnumber the number of people Muslims have killed throughout history.

So, just how exactly are we more peaceful? Maybe after the fall of the USSR, but before that?

 

I don't know that it would be useful to get into a pissing match over who killed more, although the Muslim conquest of everything between Tangier and the Burmese border, and their involvement in the slave trade which has never completely ended, might provide an interesting discussion and comparison.

 

But the fact is that, other than scrapes in former Yugoslavia and the Caucasus, there hasn't been much Christianity-driven warfare in a hundred years or more. Yet since the 70s, it would be hard to even list or estimate the magnitude of Islam-driven violence.

 

It's probably a phase. Most religions seem to go through it. The question is how bad things are going to get before they calm down.

[Emilia]

But the fact is that, other than scrapes in former Yugoslavia and the Caucasus, there hasn't been much Christianity-driven warfare in a hundred years or more. Yet since the 70s, it would be hard to even list or estimate the magnitude of Islam-driven violence.

Interesting because I view the Gulf wars and Afghanistan as religious, as in Christianity vs Islam fight for dominance.

[GorillaTheater]

Interesting because I view the Gulf wars and Afghanistan as religious, as in Christianity vs Islam fight for dominance.

 

I guess I can see that argument, but more so in the case of Afghanistan than the first Gulf War. The latter was almost entirely economic rather than religious, IMO.

 

I still have no clus what Bush was thinking wrt the second Gulf War.

[GorillaTheater]

I still have no clus what Bush was thinking wrt the second Gulf War.

 

Expanding on that a bit, Hussein (like Assad in Syria) was too secular to make me buy into much of a religious angle for either his actions or ours.

[Emilia]

I guess I can see that argument, but more so in the case of Afghanistan than the first Gulf War. The latter was almost entirely economic rather than religious, IMO.

 

I still have no clus what Bush was thinking wrt the second Gulf War.

Anything oil related I view as fight for dominance as it appears to be mainly between afluent Christian (consumers) and affluent Islamist (the providers) countries.

[Emilia]

Expanding on that a bit, Hussein (like Assad in Syria) was too secular to make me buy into much of a religious angle for either his actions or ours.

He threatened the oil supply. It was a Christian instigated war, yes.

[GorillaTheater]

Anything oil related I view as fight for dominance as it appears to be mainly between afluent Christian (consumers) and affluent Islamist (the providers) countries.

 

I don't know, Emilia. Look at it this way: China has a near-monopoly on the production of rare-earth metals which are a necessity for higher-tech production and other areas. They essentially have us over a barrel and are really jacking prices up. If China was a weak country and our supply was threatened, I would expect that we'd be rattling sabers, too.

 

It's not a great example, since oil is hugely more important to our economy than REMs, but let me give you another one: potential water wars. If Sudan/Egypt invades Ethiopia, I suspect it would have alot more to do with control over the headwaters of the Nile (the supply of slaves for the Sudanese would just be a side benefit) than who's God was better.

[Emilia]

I don't know, Emilia. Look at it this way: China has a near-monopoly on the production of rare-earth metals which are a necessity for higher-tech production and other areas. They essentially have us over a barrel and are really jacking prices up. If China was a weak country and our supply was threatened, I would expect that we'd be rattling sabers, too.

Agree. I don't think it's exclusively a Christian/Islam thing but I think the competition between the two religions play part in it. I don't just mean the Bible and Koran burning by both sides, it's just the age old conflict carrying on around the world.

It's not a great example, since oil is hugely more important to our economy than REMs, but let me give you another one: potential water wars. If Sudan/Egypt invades Ethiopia, I suspect it would have alot more to do with control over the headwaters of the Nile (the supply of slaves for the Sudanese would just be a side benefit) than who's God was better.

I'm sure that's true. Sudan however has split along religious lines: North Islam, South (that controls oil) Christian. Nigeria is one country but it is also very much split along religious lines and their internal conflicts reflect that.

[GorillaTheater]

I don't know, Emilia. I guess I just place wars over resources in another category all together. Unlike the wars in Yugoslavia and the Caucasus (I'm thinking Armenia-Azerbaijan) and Kasmir which were almost entirely about religious conquest.

[darkmoon]

Lapsed Christians?

 

More than a hundred million people dead.

Yet you brush this off as a casual mistake, something similar to dropping a glass if water. So the entire European continent (along with our brethren across the ocean) erred during the past 500 years but have returned to Christ? Seems a pretty convenient change of beliefs.

 

 

if Christianity is so terrible, you'd think Muslim asylum seekers would not choose to seek help from Christian countries, well, I am still asking this straight question, third time now

why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in Christian countries?

Edited January 9, 2014 by darkmoon

[Emilia]

I don't know, Emilia. I guess I just place wars over resources in another category all together. Unlike the wars in Yugoslavia and the Caucasus (I'm thinking Armenia-Azerbaijan) and Kasmir which were almost entirely about religious conquest.

I suppose I believe that everything links together. Any sort of conflict really is resource based. Religion is just a way to recruit people to fight your war for resources.

[Emilia]

if Christianity is so terrible, you'd think Muslim asylum seekers would not choose to seek help from Christian countries, well, I am still asking this straight question, third time now

why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in Christian countries?

I live in the UK and we are a secular society. While the majority of religious people that live here are Christian, this is not a Christian country but a secular one. People who seek asylum here, seek asylum in a secular country.

[darkmoon]

I live in the UK and we are a secular society. While the majority of religious people that live here are Christian, this is not a Christian country but a secular one. People who seek asylum here, seek asylum in a secular country.

 

 

 

so why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in non-Muslim countires?

[Emilia]

so why do Muslims - remarkably fleeing wars of their own making - seek asylum in non-Muslim countires?

It's not an issue of religion, it's an issue of stability. Muslim countries are usually less developed and have a very large size poor population. For this reason social unrest is much more common than in the West.

 

The West grew rich on the exploitation of these countries in the past. Don't forget we live in former empires that took the resources from these countries that today struggle. Which is why asylum seekers get taken in pretty much.

[darkmoon]

It's not an issue of religion, it's an issue of stability. Muslim countries are usually less developed and have a very large size poor population. For this reason social unrest is much more common than in the West.

 

The West grew rich on the exploitation of these countries in the past. Don't forget we live in former empires that took the resources from these countries that today struggle. Which is why asylum seekers get taken in pretty much.

 

 

 

so what is the sum, the amount of money owed, for the full and final settlement of this debt?

Edited January 9, 2014 by darkmoon

[Arieswoman]

Emilia,

You said,

 

The West grew rich on the exploitation of these countries in the past

 

Which countries and how??

[Emilia]

so what is the sum, the amount of money owed, for the full and final settlement of this debt?

 

• Not bombing the crap out of Syrian civilians to make yourself look popular (thank god the Parliament voted against that)
  
• Not start wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you can't finish
  
• Not start wars in Iraq and Afghanistan for huge construction contracts for your friends
  
• Allow Middle Eastern countries to deal with some of the conflicts themselves amongst each other without getting involved in a gung ho manner
  
• Don't start wars based on your need for resources
  

These would be a good start to settle debt. Having a few thousand refugees make absolutely no difference in the big scheme of things. Once you have more stability in the world (ie if you don't start wars in the first place ), you will have fewer people knocking on your door.

[Emilia]

Emilia,

You said,

 

Which countries and how??

The very one you live in. Also the US - used to be part of the British Empire, all the Commonwealth. France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands.

How? Empire.