Affair Down

[Daisy2013]

While these anecdotes are interesting and impressive (thanks for posting, I enjoy a variety of comments!) I have also known of many other situations where it has taken years for the WH to leave the BW and marry the OW. The one I know of that took the least time for WH to leave and marry OW (and it seemed he was absolutely moving "up," as his new W was better looking, more well educated, more talented, better personality, etc. than the old W) is the only one of the situations that didn't last. However, it lasted close to 15 years.

I also know of situations where the WH has agonized over leaving and has not left, when he has met someone "better", not because he wants to stay with BS but because his conscience and/or psyche will not allow him to leave.

 

One might ask how a man/woman who couldn't leave a spouse for religious reasons could live with his/her conscious while having an A, a reasonable question. One reason may be because having an A is not something they'd consider permanent and could ask forgiveness and get repentance for but leaving a M is permanent and therefore a more egregious sin. May not make sense to you or me but we all think differently!

 

I definitely believe there are plenty of men who meet someone "better" (in various situations this may present in various ways) and don't leave BW for other reasons.

 

 

This is true. I've lived it/living it. It is almost worse than the one who won't just admit they love their wife as well as you and therefore won't leave. To know they want to, but "can't" is pure heartbreak. In the long run, while we all sin, a Christian cannot continue to do it, and in the end cannot fight God for what "self" wants.

[Speakingofwhich]

Leaving a marriage is as complex a decision as the person who is trying to make the decision.

 

It seems to me to be simplistic to lump everyone together in trying to determine why they 1. have an affair and 2. leave a marriage.

 

And yet, there are posters who tend to generalize all situations written about on LS. Makes me wanna scream sometimes! (But, I never do!)

[violet1]

There is really a simple formula taking place here.

 

 

If the AP is -

 

 

an upgrade = The WS starts packing bags, calling lawyers, finding a new pad, changing bank accounts/credit cards etc. often within weeks or a month of so of the first downstroke.

 

 

a downgrade = WS works hard to maintain normalcy at home while keeping the AP hanging on for sex and ego strokes. (and in the process uses excuses of kids, sick spouse, can't afford new home etc etc)

 

Meh, I don't agree with this at all. Fear is a very powerful emotion. The fact is, divorce is a big deal. A lot of people don't want to leave their home, children and the comfort of their marriage ( even if they're truly unhappy) for a relationship that may not work. The people I have known who left their marriages for the AP didn't do it over night. I read somewhere that when a spouse leaves for the AP it usually happens between 1-2 years and if they don't leave by year 2, it's likely not going to happen. Again, I think it all depends on the people. There's no formula if an MM/MOM is going to leave his W for the OW/MOW.

 

I don't think that leaving for the AP has anything to do with being an upgrade or downgrade. I was on a few forums for waywards to discuss their EMA's. The majority of the people were unhappily married, but afraid to leave for whatever reason. There was one guy who was with his OW 3-4 years before he divorced his wife for her. The OW was single BTW. He was truly afraid of how the divorce would affect his child. He also didn't want to lose half of everything for a relationship that he was unsure would work or not. He also stated that the fear of the unknown paralyzed him. I know that fear is the reason I haven't divorced yet, but it is my goal for 2014. I appreciate your perspective but I don't think you can group all WS's in the same category. You are right though, there are some cheaters who don't care and just want a side piece with no intentions of ever leaving.

[liloldlady]

A lot of people don't want to leave their home, children and the comfort of their marriage ( even if they're truly unhappy) for a relationship that may not work.

 

Soooo much better to start a relationship with someone who is already single. That way you don't have to prove or demonstrate to anyone that they'll be as comfortable with you as they were in their previous situation. And there's no guilt involved.

 

Someone who is already single can choose to enhance their life by including another, and if, God forbid, it doesn't work out, they simply go back to being single. And not only is it best for someone to be single at the beginning, but please be happily single as well.

[violet1]

Soooo much better to start a relationship with someone who is already single. That way you don't have to prove or demonstrate to anyone that they'll be as comfortable with you as they were in their previous situation. And there's no guilt involved.

 

Someone who is already single can choose to enhance their life by including another, and if, God forbid, it doesn't work out, they simply go back to being single. And not only is it best for someone to be single at the beginning, but please be happily single as well.

 

Yep, I agree. I'm getting divorced and starting all over single. I'm scared and excited at the same time. If that makes any sense at all. Lol. I will not be dating anyone who's married or attached in any way. I don't want the drama that affairs bring. Been there, done that. I don't care if the guy says he's separated. Unless he has divorce papers in hand, I'm not going there.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

I am currently divorced from the woman I cheated on for several years and now in a serious relationship with the woman I had the affair with. I would like to make several responses to the posters who have weighed in already.

 

Most married people are not serial cheaters and most affairs are given life when a perfect storm blows over the horizon. In this, I would agree that serial cheaters are more attracted to availability than anything, but I would also put forward that when a perfect storm hits an affair has more to do with attraction than availability. To define the word attraction in this context, I would offer that it may be either physical, emotional, or intellectual attraction. Another observation is that there are far fewer serial cheaters than there are those facing the perfect storm. I do not offer excuses for affairs, I am merely posting my opinion on the topic at hand.

 

To the poster who said that the married person would immediately move to leave their marriage; that is not the case at all. I, as an emotional weakling, created reason upon reason for staying in the marriage. I never offered my other woman a life with me and I honestly never envisioned a life where I was not in my marital home. That did not mean the love for my other woman was not fierce. It is a fallacy that married people would leave their marriages if they loved their affair partner enough. Married people are selfish and will normally take the path of least resistance. When my other woman offered me an ultimatum I chose to stay in the marital home. It was safer and it was easier. I loved my wife and I had lived the perception for so long I didn't know who I was without it. Staying was not a measurement of my love for the other woman, it was a measurement of my cowardice and cruelty to both women.

 

As most cheaters are not serial cheaters, it makes sense that many married affair partners enter into an affair for one attraction or another. It is quite possible that they are genuinely attracted to and smitten with their affair partner before it begins, and it is quite possible that true love ensues. It is often not a matter of ease and availability, but a matter of attraction.

 

Many posts in here are cruelly casting all other women as side pieces and low hanging fruit, but most of their affair partners have, or still do, love them with a similar intensity as they love, or have loved, their own wives. The other women and the wives are separate people with good and bad traits, both in character and in form. This does not mean one is an upgrade or a downgrade. These comments that are being lobbed around within this thread are cruel and unnecessary. My other woman is not any better than my wife than my wife is better than my other woman. They are individuals that I was lucky enough to know and to have relationships with. My actions hurt them both and I am learning to live with that. The downgrade at the time was me, not them.

 

I always like it when FS weighs in - it gives an entirely different perspective and I really appreciate it.

[Finally Settled]

While I do appreciate your honesty, I have to say that, as an Other Woman, your self-described "cowardice and cruelty" would not have appealed to me at all as it related to my evaluation of how you would be as a long term partner in life. When you truly love someone, you do NOT take the path of least resistance.

 

You must remember it was six years ago when I was in the affair with my other woman. I was a man with very different views of myself, my life and the affair. I never offered myself to my other woman as a longterm partner because as far as I was concerned I was never leaving the marital home. I had an ill child, a wife I still felt love for, and a life that I was comfortable enough in that I didn't want to leave it.

 

In an ideal world love would conquer all and the path of least resistance would be overrun with nettles and weeds, but in our more complex and human world it is a well worn path with dust rising from it at regular intervals.

 

I do appreciate your comments -- thank you.

[Finally Settled]

I always like it when FS weighs in - it gives an entirely different perspective and I really appreciate it.

 

You are very kind lilmisscantbewrong. I'm glad to know I may help a few people along the way after the pain I've caused others.

[Ruffian1]

There is really a simple formula taking place here.

 

 

If the AP is -

 

 

an upgrade = The WS starts packing bags, calling lawyers, finding a new pad, changing bank accounts/credit cards etc. often within weeks or a month of so of the first downstroke.

 

 

a downgrade = WS works hard to maintain normalcy at home while keeping the AP hanging on for sex and ego strokes. (and in the process uses excuses of kids, sick spouse, can't afford new home etc etc)

 

 

lol - pretty simplistic formula.

 

Now add this in there, affiair partners are in an affair for several years. Talk of leaving and having a future sometime in the future.

 

Then the married person is caught and thrown out and D by BS.

 

The A partners then end up together, then what , Up or down grade??

 

Also, do you think the house keeper Arnold S. (The Terminator) had an affair and child with would be considered a upgrade to his W, M. Shriver??

with the criteria you all seem to use, youth, education, looks, etc.

 

Yeah, Maria did throw him out, but he did not go to the house maid who has his son. LOL

[Popsicle]

Meh, I don't agree with this at all. Fear is a very powerful emotion. The fact is, divorce is a big deal. A lot of people don't want to leave their home, children and the comfort of their marriage ( even if they're truly unhappy) for a relationship that may not work. The people I have known who left their marriages for the AP didn't do it over night. I read somewhere that when a spouse leaves for the AP it usually happens between 1-2 years and if they don't leave by year 2, it's likely not going to happen. Again, I think it all depends on the people. There's no formula if an MM/MOM is going to leave his W for the OW/MOW.

 

I don't think that leaving for the AP has anything to do with being an upgrade or downgrade. I was on a few forums for waywards to discuss their EMA's. The majority of the people were unhappily married, but afraid to leave for whatever reason. There was one guy who was with his OW 3-4 years before he divorced his wife for her. The OW was single BTW. He was truly afraid of how the divorce would affect his child. He also didn't want to lose half of everything for a relationship that he was unsure would work or not. He also stated that the fear of the unknown paralyzed him. I know that fear is the reason I haven't divorced yet, but it is my goal for 2014. I appreciate your perspective but I don't think you can group all WS's in the same category. You are right though, there are some cheaters who don't care and just want a side piece with no intentions of ever leaving.

 

You know, you are right.

[WasOtherWoman]

You must remember it was six years ago when I was in the affair with my other woman. I was a man with very different views of myself, my life and the affair. I never offered myself to my other woman as a longterm partner because as far as I was concerned I was never leaving the marital home. I had an ill child, a wife I still felt love for, and a life that I was comfortable enough in that I didn't want to leave it.

 

In an ideal world love would conquer all and the path of least resistance would be overrun with nettles and weeds, but in our more complex and human world it is a well worn path with dust rising from it at regular intervals.

 

I do appreciate your comments -- thank you.

 

Thanks for the response, FS. I am sorry, I did not know your back story and perhaps was projecting my own. If in fact you never promised yourself to your affair partner, or in any way gave her any hope that you would be leaving your wife, that is an entirely different story. I apologize if I jumped to conclusions.

 

I do agree that love does not conquer all. But I do have to say, respectfully, that I need to matter to someone more than the nettles and weeds that stood in the path of our future. I am worth the nettles and weeds AND I needed to know that he was willing to go through them FOR me and then later, WITH me. Otherwise he was not ready to be a good partner to me.

 

You do sound like you are in a much better place now though. Sometimes what comes easiest is not always best

[thinkingofhim]

I admit to comparing myself but I ultimately don't think OW can be compared to the BS at all, not who is younger, prettier, more fun, likes to go bike riding, etc... BS comes with a lot of "better" qualities that OW can never have, so comparison is impossible. BS comes with the house, the kids, no divorce, no angry/disgusted friends family, no one picking sides. It's truly a contest within the MM of his courage vs his fear, not OW vs BS. Just my observations

[soundsfamilar]

thinkingofhim, that's actually exactly want my xMM said: "i didn't have the courage. i saw a life that could be terrific, i wanted it, but my fear was stronger". so there you have it.

[ladydesigner]

This is something people tell BSs to make them feel better. When the BS says, "But she's 15 years younger, drop dead gorgeous, with an advanced degree and top salary," the others tell her, "But she's ugly on the inside."

 

Sour grapes.

But if I was the BS, I would want to hear the same thing.

 

It always sounds to me a little like blaming the OW ("she's black as tar on the inside!") instead of blaming their spouse. Shouldn't the spouse have a black, ugly, unworthy soul, as well?

 

Well what do you think, should they? I know I didn't deserve all the crap my WH and the MOW threw my direction when I wasn't looking. The BS isn't the one having the A. It's not nice to abuse or have an A. I feel both are abusive to any relationship. The BS in some cases may not be very nice, but then to add fuel to the fire by having an A makes no sense to me. BTW I have had an A in the past. My views have changed though.

[ladydesigner]

thinkingofhim, that's actually exactly want my xMM said: "i didn't have the courage. i saw a life that could be terrific, i wanted it, but my fear was stronger". so there you have it.

 

This fear is where people will find their truths. Whether the MM/MW decides that the truth entails leaving and ending the M or ending the A and saving the M. A lot of times this fear can be worked out through therapy.

[stillafool]

I can understand why someone with low confidence/self respect etc would be more likely to get involved with a MM than someone with bucket loads of self esteem, but why would these characteristics be *attractive* to a MM? Just because that person is willing?

 

I would say I do have self esteem issues, but I really don't think he knows me well enough to know that as at work I'm quietly confident and keep most personal things private. He's my manager but I am also a supervisor so it's not like it's some hierarchical ego thing either.

 

He knows you have low self esteem because you accepted his advances. Women with high self esteem would not lower themselves to the position of a mistress. They would not want to waste their time playing second to another woman. Too many options out there to settle.

[WasOtherWoman]

thinkingofhim, that's actually exactly want my xMM said: "i didn't have the courage. i saw a life that could be terrific, i wanted it, but my fear was stronger". so there you have it.

 

In this case, I think, an MM is doing you a favor when he says this sort of thing. Because, really, who wants a partner who is afraid to do the hard work in life? (whether that hard work is figuring out a marriage that has gone bad, or making a new life with someone else?)

[violet1]

He knows you have low self esteem because you accepted his advances. Women with high self esteem would not lower themselves to the position of a mistress. They would not want to waste their time playing second to another woman. Too many options out there to settle.

 

I don't believe that's always the case though. I think a lot of single OWs become platonic friends with the MM first. Then the MM starts spewing out how unhappy he is in his marriage and blah blah. The single woman believes him and viola she's his new OW. There are very successful, intelligent, high self esteem OWs out there too.

[WasOtherWoman]

I don't believe that's always the case though. I think a lot of single OWs become platonic friends with the MM first. Then the MM starts spewing out how unhappy he is in his marriage and blah blah. The single woman believes him and viola she's his new OW. There are very successful, intelligent, high self esteem OWs out there too.

 

LOL I must agree with you there. I have a rather high opinion of myself and I was an OW for a while . Although, I have to say that my MM never spewed out how unhappy he was in his marriage because he knew mine would not have been a sympathetic ear.

[liloldlady]

Women with high self esteem would not lower themselves to the position of a mistress.

 

It all can depend upon where she is at that particular moment in her life.

 

They would not want to waste their time playing second to another woman.

 

Perhaps she's not interested in any silly competition, LOL.

[liloldlady]

I think a lot of single OWs become platonic friends with the MM first. Then the MM starts spewing out how unhappy he is in his marriage and blah blah.

 

Close. In our case. Indeed. I remember asking him point blank: what do you want with me? Oh, I think you're sexy! No regard for that fact that I already told him I love his friend very much. So now I strive to steer him back into the friend zone. It is truly for the best but my does he persist.

[Amelia81]

He knows you have low self esteem because you accepted his advances. Women with high self esteem would not lower themselves to the position of a mistress. They would not want to waste their time playing second to another woman. Too many options out there to settle.

 

But why is this attractive to a MM?? From what I can gather he was attracted to me before he kissed me and I was oblivious to it, he would not have known I had low self esteem beforehand.

 

I doubt he does now either, I really don't think men think that deeply. Also surely if that's what he was looking for, and what he found out when he kissed me, then he would be pursuing something now and he's not. Unless he's playing some kind of long game but he knows I'm not ok with what happened.

[chelsea2011]

But why is this attractive to a MM?? From what I can gather he was attracted to me before he kissed me and I was oblivious to it, he would not have known I had low self esteem beforehand.

 

I doubt he does now either, I really don't think men think that deeply. Also surely if that's what he was looking for, and what he found out when he kissed me, then he would be pursuing something now and he's not. Unless he's playing some kind of long game but he knows I'm not ok with what happened.

 

People have a tendancy to be attracted to people who are mirroring how they feel about themselves in some respect. It may not be a conscious thing on their part. If it is conscious then that is a whole other issue all together.

 

With that said, being involved with or attracted to a person who is attached will bring out bad feelings about yourself eventually. It's up to you whether or not you want to continue you feeling that way. Feeling less than the person they are attached to only has power if you let it. try to stop allowing yourself to feel that way and see where it leads you. Most likely you will look back and see those feelings were nothing more than a symptom of a messed up situation.

 

Wish you the best and hope you start to see that you are NOT less and that it's the situation itself that brings out those feelings.

[inappfriendly]

I am currently divorced from the woman I cheated on for several years and now in a serious relationship with the woman I had the affair with. I would like to make several responses to the posters who have weighed in already.

 

Most married people are not serial cheaters and most affairs are given life when a perfect storm blows over the horizon. In this, I would agree that serial cheaters are more attracted to availability than anything, but I would also put forward that when a perfect storm hits an affair has more to do with attraction than availability. To define the word attraction in this context, I would offer that it may be either physical, emotional, or intellectual attraction. Another observation is that there are far fewer serial cheaters than there are those facing the perfect storm. I do not offer excuses for affairs, I am merely posting my opinion on the topic at hand.

 

To the poster who said that the married person would immediately move to leave their marriage; that is not the case at all. I, as an emotional weakling, created reason upon reason for staying in the marriage. I never offered my other woman a life with me and I honestly never envisioned a life where I was not in my marital home. That did not mean the love for my other woman was not fierce. It is a fallacy that married people would leave their marriages if they loved their affair partner enough. Married people are selfish and will normally take the path of least resistance. When my other woman offered me an ultimatum I chose to stay in the marital home. It was safer and it was easier. I loved my wife and I had lived the perception for so long I didn't know who I was without it. Staying was not a measurement of my love for the other woman, it was a measurement of my cowardice and cruelty to both women.

 

As most cheaters are not serial cheaters, it makes sense that many married affair partners enter into an affair for one attraction or another. It is quite possible that they are genuinely attracted to and smitten with their affair partner before it begins, and it is quite possible that true love ensues. It is often not a matter of ease and availability, but a matter of attraction.

 

Many posts in here are cruelly casting all other women as side pieces and low hanging fruit, but most of their affair partners have, or still do, love them with a similar intensity as they love, or have loved, their own wives. The other women and the wives are separate people with good and bad traits, both in character and in form. This does not mean one is an upgrade or a downgrade. These comments that are being lobbed around within this thread are cruel and unnecessary. My other woman is not any better than my wife than my wife is better than my other woman. They are individuals that I was lucky enough to know and to have relationships with. My actions hurt them both and I am learning to live with that. The downgrade at the time was me, not them.

 

Thank you for taking the time to share this.

[cocorico]

He knows you have low self esteem because you accepted his advances. Women with high self esteem would not lower themselves to the position of a mistress. They would not want to waste their time playing second to another woman. Too many options out there to settle.

 

This post is riddled with assumptions, many of them dubious. For example,

 

1. The OW accepts the MM's advance.

 

Sometimes the OW is the one making the advance.

Sometimes the MM does not "make an advance", but a friendship deepens over time.

Sometimes the OW rejects the MM's advances, but has crossed a boundary nonetheless and discovers herself to be in an EA with the MM.

 

Either way, none of it necessarily indicates low self esteem. It would only indicate low self esteem if the A was against the values of the OW, she felt it was wrong and she felt bad about engaging in it.

 

2. Not all OW are mistresses. A mistress is a woman who makes herself sexually available to a MM on an exclusive basis in exchange for some kind of lifestyle support - much like a W, but without the certificate. Many OW are entirely self-supporting, and some OW have more than one sexual outlet (eg MOW, or women who date as well as "seeing" a MM). And, not all women consider the position "lowly". In days past, courtesans and mistresses were positions to which some sectors aspired, and even now in some societies, and some subcultures, it comes with cachet.

 

3. Not all OW "play second to another woman". Some are the primary R, some have their own primary R elsewhere, and some are on a par with the W when it comes to how the MM treats them.

 

To return to topic, though - I think whether or not an AP "affairs down" or up or sideways or any other direction depends on their reason for engaging in the A, and what they're seeking, as well as they type of A. A sex addict wanting to get his rocks off is going to be seeking something very different from the man shackled to a BW who let herself go decades back with the first of many kids, who meets the woman of his dreams and falls head over heels in love but feels bilges to serve out his period of paternal servitude.