Going from charming to the next stage.......

[ladybug1984]

Thanks to some soul-searching and assessing the facts.........and after getting lots and lots of information on 'warning signs', I truly think I am not only seeing YELLOW flags as one poster so eloquently put it, I am seeing plenty of RED flags, and this is before anything physically abusive has happened (EXCEPTION: years ago with the same relationship there WAS very limited physical abuse and I got out of it - but that was over 12 years ago - I gave him another chance, thinking after 12 years, he was changed.....I think I was wrong!). Anyways................I am trying to sort through things in my mind and none of this really matters, I'm just trying to understand:

 

 

1. In general, how long does it take someone to go from 'charming' to that pre-abuse stage where they are just mean, start withdrawing the compliments, start subtlely throwing out demeaning and underhanded comments, starting to become more demanding, etc.?

 

 

2. Do people on the receiving end recognize this right off the bat or is it so gradual you almost don't see it until you are removed from the situation? For me, it was the latter - I truly didn't see any of this even though it was RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY FACE, until months after no contact/removing myself from the situation. I kind of sensed things had changed, but didn't know why and didn't realize just how much it had changed until I was removed from it.

 

 

3. WHAT is it that makes the person go from that charming, hanging-on-every-word phase to what I will call the 'mean' but not yet violent, stage? Is this just the normal progression? Or just in my situation?

 

 

4. With 'normal' relationships, nobody can stay 'charming', hanging-on-every-word, complimentary, etc. for an extended time, so how can you tell if it is a 'normal' relationship where the charm wears off as the novelty of the relationship wears off vs. a more potentially abusive situation? What are the differences (if any) in the other parties behavior as the novelty of the relationship wears off?

 

 

5. My big question - does the potential abuser KNOW they are doing this when they go from that initial charming phase to being so mean or is it just something they do that they are oblivious to and it's just the way they are due to whatever the underlying issues are???

 

 

I know none of this really matters in my situation, as I've already decided there are too many red flags and have gotten out months ago and am determined NOT to associate myself with it anymore, but I do want to understand as ALL of the other relationships I had in the past NEVER were abusive - and I have had several.

 

 

5.

[894hjk]

I'm in the same sitch. Been with a guy 5 months.

The last month or 2 has been:

No compliments

No "I love u"

Ordering me around

Laziness

He's practically moved in

Made physical threats

 

And more

 

He doesn't want to meet my family but he

Was happy to have me cook Xmas dinner.

Everything goes at his pace. Everything's on his terms.

 

How long u been with this bloke?

Is he violent?

Do u love him?

[Elias33]

To answer question number one, you don't wait around and find out. So if you don't know the answer to that question, that means you are doing good.

[Downtown]

In general, how long does it take someone to go from 'charming' to that pre-abuse stage where they are just mean...?

Ladybug, with the BPDers we were discussing this past August, it typically takes 4 to 6 months because, until then, their infatuation over you holds there two fears at bay. As soon as that infatuation starts evaporating, the fears return and you will start triggering the two fears (no matter how careful you are to avoid doing so).

 

If the abusive behavior arises from narcissism or sociopathy, however, the abuse likely will start as soon as the person hears you disagreeing with him or becomes bored with you. Of course, abuse can arise from other causes too, e.g., drug abuse, a pronounced hormone change, or (very rarely) a head injury or brain tumor.

Do people on the receiving end recognize this right off the bat or is it so gradual you almost don't see it until you are removed from the situation?

Again, the answer depends heavily on the cause of the abuse. In the case of high functioning BPDers, there likely will be NO ABUSIVE RED FLAGS TO SEE during the infatuation period, as I noted above. By the time they start appearing, you likely will be so much in love that you likely will choose to ignore them for many months.

My big question - does the potential abuser KNOW they are doing this when they go from that initial charming phase to being so mean or is it just something they do that they are oblivious to...?

As noted above, the answer depends on the cause of the abuse -- and there can be many different causes. BPDers, for example, know they are being mean but, while doing it, typically are convinced you fully deserve such treatment. They are convinced because they do black-white thinking, wherein they categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad." Because there is no grey area, it only takes a minor transgression (real or imagined) to immediately place you in the "all bad" category. If you are interested in learning how to spot BPD warning signs, I discuss them in more detail in Rebel's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735.

[turnera]

In general, how long does it take someone to go from 'charming' to that pre-abuse stage where they are just mean, start withdrawing the compliments, start subtlely throwing out demeaning and underhanded comments, starting to become more demanding, etc.?

IME, that depends on YOU.

 

The sooner you show utter dependence on him, the sooner he relaxes and starts being his old, abusive self.

[turnera]

Anyone who thinks they may be in this situation needs to first read this book:

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men: Lundy Bancroft: 9780425191651: Amazon.com: Books

[ladybug1984]

Ladybug, with the BPDers we were discussing this past August, it typically takes 4 to 6 months because, until then, their infatuation over you holds there two fears at bay. As soon as that infatuation starts evaporating, the fears return and you will start triggering the two fears (no matter how careful you are to avoid doing so).

 

 

Downtown, what are the two fears that you reference? This is ALL new to me and trying to understand. I am thinking it was around the 6-8 month mark looking back..............I honestly cannot remember when I really started noticing and whether it was just gradual or all at once. I guess it doesn't really matter, it just is somehow helping me to process all of this through trying to understand more. Not that it changes anything, it just helps me feel better about letting go. I am learning a lot here!

[pteromom]

With 'normal' relationships, nobody can stay 'charming', hanging-on-every-word, complimentary, etc. for an extended time, so how can you tell if it is a 'normal' relationship where the charm wears off as the novelty of the relationship wears off vs. a more potentially abusive situation? What are the differences (if any) in the other parties behavior as the novelty of the relationship wears off?

 

In a "normal' relationship, the beginning butterflies/swooning/honeymoon phase will morph into a strong friendship.

 

You will feel like your partner is your shoulder to lean on, your soft place to fall, and someone who is always there for you.

 

You will feel understood, accepted, and respected.

 

You will work together to resolve issues, make compromises, and make the relationship work for both of you.

 

You will be able to communicate with each other and listen to each other's point of view.

 

He will like you as a person, and will only want to lift you up, not tear you down. Your happiness will not be a threat to him.

[pteromom]

5. My big question - does the potential abuser KNOW they are doing this when they go from that initial charming phase to being so mean or is it just something they do that they are oblivious to and it's just the way they are due to whatever the underlying issues are???

 

Usually, no, but sometimes, yes.

 

It doesn't really matter though.

 

Don't focus on labels and reasons and analyzing his actions. Instead, when you start dating someone, determine whether the relationship is meeting your needs and whether your communication/affection/values are compatible.

 

How he is in the relationship either works for you or it doesn't. The why doesn't matter, and there doesn't have to be a bad guy.

[Downtown]

Downtown, what are the two fears that you reference?

The fears of abandonment and engulfment. I discuss them at the link I provided above.

[ladybug1984]

The fears of abandonment and engulfment. I discuss them at the link I provided above.

 

 

 

 

YES!!! Just read it and it is RIGHT ON with what I am experiencing.........in fact, I had to read some of the other replies quickly (am going back to re-read when I don't have company like I do right now) and can also relate to ME being the 'rescuer'................this is sooooo me! I do feel like he is someone that needs to be 'fixed' and part of my guilt in not staying away is because I feel like I am the only one that can 'fix' him, and of course we all know that the only person that can fix someone is themselves. OHHHH, Downtown, this is soooo me. The part about gravitating only to those who have issues is soooo me. There is no 'excitement' with a normal person. Didn't know there was a name for it, but I guess that means I have co-dependency tendencies. Boy, oh, boy........I need to go back and re-read thoroughly. Also downloaded the book suggested by Tunera for my e-reader. LOTS and lots to learn.

 

 

Thanks, friends, Peteromom and others........this is allll so helpful!

[turnera]

In a "normal' relationship, the beginning butterflies/swooning/honeymoon phase will morph into a strong friendship.

 

You will feel like your partner is your shoulder to lean on, your soft place to fall, and someone who is always there for you.

 

You will feel understood, accepted, and respected.

 

You will work together to resolve issues, make compromises, and make the relationship work for both of you.

 

You will be able to communicate with each other and listen to each other's point of view.

 

He will like you as a person, and will only want to lift you up, not tear you down. Your happiness will not be a threat to him.

And you will feel safe to be yourself around him and to tell him anything.

[ladybug1984]

And you will feel safe to be yourself around him and to tell him anything.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Turnera..........I feel soooo.............duped. And so clueless. TG I saw all of this before anything physical started to happen (

[Hopeful714]

There are MANY of us that got duped by these "types". And, if the RS wasn't bad enough, the recovery process takes on a whole new entity in itself!

 

One tries to find answers and closure by reading, reading, and reading of material to try to figure out what has happened, why it occured, and to try to understand the ex's behavior. However, because there is no official diagnosis, and we cannot actually diagnose them with a PD, we can only notice the traits they may possess and surmise from there. Nothing is certain. So, it becomes an agonizing kind of BU and recovery as opposed to "he is good guy, or not a good guy, ....and things just didn't work out."

 

For myself, there are still questions, and things I analyze but I try not to anymore because I will never fully know the answers of why I was treated the way I was. From all the reading, at times I have even questioned my own issues and sanity as I know I have abandonment issues due to death of my parents in childhood... but.... I do not lie, am not reckless, live very responsibly, and do my best to not to hurt others....so I think I'm ok...yet in my RS I felt, and was labeled by my ex as "the crazy one."

 

To answer some of your questions:

 

1.) I found he went from charming to not so charming as soon as he knew he had me and I was a willing, active participant of what I thought was a real RS. As time went on I saw more and more of the real "him" and because at that time I was "hooked" I stayed.

 

2.) For me, I noticed red flags day one. (Read my post titled 1 year later in the abuse section.) But because I never had dealt with anything like this before, I considered them "oddities" and did not give the behaviors the credence I should have. Slowly, however, I felt picked apart fiber by fiber....it was a slow process until I was completely depleted. Once I was away...it all started making more sense. The saying "you cant see the forest for the trees' took on whole new meaning to me.

 

3.) I think the "mask" just drops. We all tend to put our best foot forward in entering RS's, and as time progresses...the real "us" and not so great traits are exposed.

 

4.) I am not exactly sure. Notice the red flags early perhaps? I am still working on this one as I never want to be in that situation again.

 

5.) In my case, he knew there was something "off" with himself. A self proclaimed "evil monster", "broken man with a dark side" who looked for pity. He HAS to see his RS's do not last much over a year until they crumble because they turn toxic. He also said "I know I have issues". Yet, in the very end he walked away smugly with no remorse as I was labeled weak, needy and bi-polar. He is on his 2nd RS after me and in a "seemingly" happy love RS that is going on 9 mos. I am haunted by "did he change"? However that seems unlikely. He's been through 5 girls in 5 years.

 

I hope this has helped you somewhat. Believe me and everything you read that it is best for you to be away from him and remain NC forever.... as hard as that may seem. Take it from one who knows.

 

To Downtown, I have learned much from your posts. My question to you is do these abandonment/engulfment issues ever subside? I know my ex has them as well as myself to a certain degree.

 

Lastly, I find its quite daunting to try to find a "real" caring, loving RS in these times of technology where temptation is rampant and only 1 click away. The stories I read on this forum are at times unbelievable, and at times strikingly similar. Is there any hope?

[Downtown]

Do these abandonment/engulfment issues ever subside? I know my ex has them as well as myself to a certain degree.

Hopeful, yes, you have these issues to some degree. We all do. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. This is why BPD and the other 9 personality disorders are said to be "spectrum disorders," which means that everyone has all the traits to some extent. The reason is that these behaviors are basic human traits that arise from primitive ego defenses we all use to survive childhood -- and continue to use throughout adulthood whenever we are suddenly startled or experience intense feelings.

 

If you have only low to moderate BPD traits, you likely will experience occasions where your traits will flare up to a strong level temporarily. During early childhood, for example, you behaved like a BPDer 24/7. Then the traits subsided as you learned how to replace the primitive ego defenses (e.g., denial, projection, and temper tantrums) with more mature defenses. In your early teens, however, the hormone surge likely caused a flare up of BPD traits lasting a few years. Indeed, it is because so many normal teens behave exactly like BPDers that therapists usually refuse to diagnose BPD until the person has reached 18.

 

Similarly, other pronounced hormone changes also can produce these flareups. This is why you will often see BPD flareups in women during pregnancy, postpartum (which can last two years), perimenopause, and menopause. In addition, such flareups can be caused by great stress and (only rarely) by a head injury or brain tumor. With these flareups, the traits eventually subside and may do so quite quickly.

 

Yet, when a person has a lifetime condition of strong BPD traits, those strong traits do not go away unless the BPDer works very hard for several years in an intensive treatment program (e.g., DBT). There are a few recent studies, however, suggesting that strong BPD traits will start to subside a bit after the mid-forties. That is, the person can drop -- even without having any treatment -- from "having BPD" to "not having BPD."

 

While that improvement can be good news to the BPD sufferer, it nonetheless offers little hope to the abused spouses. The reason is that is can be nearly as difficult to live with a spouse satisfying only 80% or 90% of the diagnostic guidelines (thus "not having BPD") as it is to live with one one satisfying 100% (thus "having BPD").

 

This is why, when you are searching for a spouse, learning that someone was diagnosed as "not having BPD" does NOT mean he is a safe candidate for marriage. Rather, it simply means his BPD traits fell short of the 100% diagnostic guideline. Importantly, that guideline was established largely to protect the interests of insurance companies, drug firms, and public courts -- not those of spouses or potential mates. Your best protection, then, is to learn how to spot the warning signs so you can know when a professional opinion is warranted.

I find its quite daunting to try to find a "real" caring, loving RS in these times of technology where temptation is rampant and only 1 click away.... Is there any hope?

Yes, there is a lot to be hopeful about -- when folks take the time, as you've done, to learn the warning signs for BPD and other PDs. Although a diagnosis can only be done by professionals, spotting the red flags is not difficult. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD.

 

Likewise, you could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. There is nothing subtle about red flags such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and inability to trust.

[Hopeful714]

As I was cooking breakfast it dawned on me! The answer to your question #4.

 

It appears both you and I had "reservations" and or "feelings" that something in the RS was not quite right. Call it a "gut reaction" or intuition if you will.

 

In my case, I was hell bent on trying to figure out the puzzle, the mystery of him....that ultimately led to my downfall. As time went on, I found myself seeing him more and more repulsive, yet I stayed... waiting, hoping, for that charming person I met to return.

 

The answer so it seems is then is this...trust your gut. Listen to that intuition, don't hang around once there are too many unanswered questions and/or you are being treated poorly to what are your standards. In essence, don't let yourself fall too quickly. Learn to trust yourself that YOUR judgement based upon what you encounter is sound and let that lead you. You WILL know what is right and wrong for you. Don't ignore it.

[Hopeful714]

Wow Downtown did you just explain a lot. Thank you.

 

I no doubt know I have exhibited BPD traits in my past while in RS's. I can actually trace it to when my first "teen" love relationship ended and I could not get over it. I knew it was somehow linked to my parents deaths when I was a kid. Unfortunately my patterns lasted a long time... and I WAS aware of them...to the point where I became RS avoidant because I didn't want to live through the difficulties of being in a RS yet never feeling "secure" enough and/or feeling too "engulfed". It always caused problems.

 

Finally, in my mid 40's I finally got to a point where I felt "mature" enough so to say to enter a real RS. Unfortunately, (because I assume that for years I was so focused on my own problems) I didn't fully realize there are many many others who have them as well, AND, I didn't fully realize how to spot them in others...hence my bad RS.

 

As I am now in my late 40's and have became fully "aware" so to say. I am pretty confident that I am ready for a true RS. Because, EXACTLY as you described, I feel that my BPD traits have dropped significantly since I have taken the time to deal with them (with out treatment, as I never really knew) and because I can spot PD traits in others more clearly now, then ever before. And heck, I'd say I am more mentally healthy then most! lol

 

Thank you again Downtown. I may have more questions...but I'll start another thread. Maybe there IS hope. What a great way to start the New Year!

 

Sorry Ladybug for the hi-jack.

[ladybug1984]

Wow Downtown did you just explain a lot. Thank you.

 

I no doubt know I have exhibited BPD traits in my past while in RS's. I can actually trace it to when my first "teen" love relationship ended and I could not get over it. I knew it was somehow linked to my parents deaths when I was a kid. Unfortunately my patterns lasted a long time... and I WAS aware of them...to the point where I became RS avoidant because I didn't want to live through the difficulties of being in a RS yet never feeling "secure" enough and/or feeling too "engulfed". It always caused problems.

 

Finally, in my mid 40's I finally got to a point where I felt "mature" enough so to say to enter a real RS. Unfortunately, (because I assume that for years I was so focused on my own problems) I didn't fully realize there are many many others who have them as well, AND, I didn't fully realize how to spot them in others...hence my bad RS.

 

As I am now in my late 40's and have became fully "aware" so to say. I am pretty confident that I am ready for a true RS. Because, EXACTLY as you described, I feel that my BPD traits have dropped significantly since I have taken the time to deal with them (with out treatment, as I never really knew) and because I can spot PD traits in others more clearly now, then ever before. And heck, I'd say I am more mentally healthy then most! lol

 

Thank you again Downtown. I may have more questions...but I'll start another thread. Maybe there IS hope. What a great way to start the New Year!

 

Sorry Ladybug for the hi-jack.

 

 

NO WORRIES!!! THis has been VERY, very helpful to me - ALL of the posts in this thread! Reading some of the responses posted over the last 24 hours have me shaking my head in agreement with ALL that is being shared. I cannot believe what I am reading............it is sooooo pertinent to my situation. I wish I had known long before now about what it is I was dealing with regarding his behavior.

[turnera]

There's an absolutely awesome book about how we pick the people we pick (and how to stop doing it if we make harmful choices). It's called Getting The Love You Want.

[turnera]

I like to describe what WE go through (as opposed to the abusers) in the process is 'give ins.' We start out with Prince Charming and, as time goes on and he sheds the fake persona and starts dumping on you, you 'give in,' one little thing at a time.

 

Say he's wonderful for 3 or 4 weeks and then, suddenly, out of the blue, he says 'You're not going to wear THAT out tonight, are you?' You're shocked, don't know what to make of this change, so you tell yourself 'oh, he must just be having a bad day. I'll go change my outfit.' You just did a 'give in.' So now he knows he can criticize how you look and you'll adapt to please him.

 

The next week, you're about to go see your mom and he says 'Why can't you do that on Fridays when I'm working?' You're surprised, but you tell yourself it's just because he likes you so much he'd rather spend every available moment with you, so you figure, eh, why not, I'll rearrange my schedule to please him. You just did another 'give in.' And now he knows he can make you not see your friends and family. And he'll do it again. And again. Until you've given up all of them for him, and you've become isolated.

 

To you, it was just a slight adjustment of who you are, what you want to do, because you want him to be happy. To him, it's grooming.

 

You keep doing these 'give ins,' one give in at a time, until you look back and realize all your little justified give ins were nothing more than you walking on eggshells to find the one thing that will satisfy him (which is impossible, of course, and just what he intended), and, accumulated, amount to becoming an abuse victim. Like the frog in the tepid water who sticks around when it starts heating up because it's only one degree hotter every so often, til it's boiling and he's dying.

[ladybug1984]

Like the frog in the tepid water who sticks around when it starts heating up because it's only one degree hotter every so often, til it's boiling and he's dying.

 

 

 

 

Before I even got to your last line, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking - the story about the frog!! I am feeling like that truly is what happened with him...............sooo gradual, but at the very end and looking back, I can see it...........I could NOT see it until I went NC/LC. In the midst of it all, it just seemed like personality quirks. I am feeling MUCH more enlightened now......and TG for that!

[Hopeful714]

The few above posts are perfect examples of opportunities to become stronger in the self, and not be manipulated and or abused.

 

For example sometime in life someone MAY say "your not wearing THAT" are you? To which you would reply, "yes, I am." You then wear it. If there is a huge problem over it...RED FLAG. Granted, you need to discern that you are dressed appropriately and not wearing a ball gown to a picnic.

 

Or, if you have previous plans...YOU GO to your plans, instead of making yourself always available to his whims. Again, if there is a big issue...RED FLAG.

 

Women need to toughen up bit, not be so eager to please all the time. Basically...do not lose yourself for the relationship and keep a life for yourself.

 

I wish I would have done that more. Then I may have not been so devastated that I gave and gave, and got little in return. Oh well...lesson learned.