And this is why I am done with empathy and looking out for others best interest

[OpheliaSong]

Just remember to always take care of yourself, but try not to lose the essence of who you are because of some thoughtless, cruel people. I have been hurt too so I know how that can wear someone down. Hugs.

[Taramere]

All I can say is be measured but don't harden your heart completely. I understand that it's very tempting to say f*ck it and be the "jerk". If you're comfortable doing that, then I can't stop you.

 

Of course. And most people are jerks from time to time. Generally people in my life (friends, family and colleagues) tell me I'm nice or too nice...but I don't think I am. I can be a jerk. However, when I behave like a jerk to people I tend to feel bad about it later and so the obvious solution is to try to behave less like a jerk so that I feel less bad. Sometimes, though, I have to behave in ways that logically I know are necessary but that don't feel very good. Maybe that's what Kaylan is talking about, I don't know. When I feel it really is necessary to behave in a harsh way with somebody who's just taking the piss, then I put a sort of psychological suit of armour on to do it - built to withstand their inevitable "you're not a nice person after all!" manipulation. What Kaylan's talking about seems more about putting that suit of armour on with everybody. Operating on the assumption that everybody is taking the p...rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt to start with.

 

Kaylan, I can only think of four reasons for people to behave in an empathic way.

 

1. They're being true to their natural temperament

2. They've been brought up to behave empathically, even if there's no real feeling of empathy underlying the behaviour

3. Something has touched them and brought out an altruistic side in them that isn't normally in evidence

4. They're mimicking empathy for the purposes of manipulating other people.

 

If you're a naturally empathic person, the people closest to you throughout life will probably also be naturally empathic. However, inevitably you will also attract users, manipulators and jerks at times. Also, because you are a flawed human being like everybody else, there are times you will be a bit of a user, manipulator and a jerk.

 

What I read in this thread is that you don't believe you have that side to you, but that you're going to spend 2014 developing it. It doesn't seem a wise choice to me. It seems more like an immature choice. With wisdom, you recognise your own imperfections and the part you may have played in bad relationships having developed with others and you either work on it - or, if the other person involved is either a habitual blamer or a psychopath (who couldn't care less about hurting you or other people), then you distance yourself.

 

If you take the view that you're a good guy surrounded by an ocean of bad people who lack integrity then I'm sorry but that smacks just a little bit of the defence mechanism known as splitting, employed in a way that flatters you at the expense of others. Rather than spending 2014 being brutal with others, it might be more helpful to spend it being brutally honest with yourself. I'm sure you're a nice empathic guy, but I'm equally sure that you have met plenty of nice empathic women....and that when things go wrong with them, it's more likely to be attributable to communication problems, lack of shared values that would make you philosophically compatible, fault on both sides etc than to them being ne'er do wells who abuse your empathic nature.

 

I honestly believe that true empathy is something that you can feel even for people who have wronged you, and that experiencing it is part of moving on from that wrong. People hurt us most when we feel that they've changed us in some way, for the worse. Made us harder and less feeling. For another person to change the essence of who you are would be for them to exert immense control over you. The way to be strong surely can't be let other people's douchier aspects transform your entire personality and outlook. Better just to focus on shrugging it off as swiftly as you can and move on from those people so that their impact on your life is minimised.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Taramere

[Eternal Sunshine]

I love Tara's post. It took me some time to realize that being emphatic and genuinely caring about people is a strength. Any man that can't see that is not worth my time.

[Lady2163]

^A perfect example of why many men get to the point Ive gotten to. When chicks act like lies are no big deal, why should I feel the need to be open and transparent? *shrug*

 

It would be your loss. I may not be gorgeous, but I'm a great catch.

 

Technically, I don't normally have to lie.

 

Are you seeing anyone else?

I have a friend who lives out of state. We are buddies first. I haven't seen him in X number of months.

 

How did your last relationship end?

He told me he didn't love me and wanted to be free to find someone to love. It hurt at the time, but I know I dodged a bullet.

 

How did your marriage end?

We grew apart. We wanted different things. He lives 1200 miles away and we are kind to each other, but probably only speak 3-4 times a year.

 

How many men have you slept with?

A lot. I was in the military and had a lot of fun in my 20s. I never hurt anyone and I've settled down considerably in the last 10 years.

 

How many is a lot?

I'm not even going to do a ballpark guess.

 

I've never had a date ask me if I've been to swingers parties or bdsm events. But I know some of the men I've dated would have some sort of mass orgy in mind.

 

Oh - and just so we are clear, I don't go to these events while I'm dating.

[kaylan]

Kaylan, has it occurred to you that this would be a perfect opportunity to develop MORE empathy?

 

 

These women you call 'skanks' in another thread... has it occurred to you that they might have been used, abused, and lied to like you are feeling now? That they have given up? That they think that having empty sex is the only way they can get any kind of care and affection in their lives? Just like you are contemplating doing? 'Getting yours'??

 

 

I've been tempted to go that path. You have NO IDEA how lonely it has been for me up here. Especially when so many of my friends around here are happily married.

 

 

... you have NO IDEA how frustrating it is to try and meet men who pose as 'nice guys' but who have been playing the field for years and likely have no intention of being committed to anyone... who want to use me to redeem themselves or to make me like them... just another dating zombie.

 

 

I've wasted a lot of time being angry at these people.

 

 

You don't have to become like that. Use these experiences to develop more empathy... be grateful for the people who can and do care for you. They say that emotional intelligence is based on two things... empathy and ability to delay gratification. I believe that 100%. Even if I'm not there yet... that is my goal.

Empathy for selfish users? No thanks. Im not wasting my compassion on self-serving users. And I have been delaying my gratification for a while. No longer.

Edited January 2, 2014 by kaylan

[kaylan]

It would be your loss. I may not be gorgeous, but I'm a great catch.

 

Technically, I don't normally have to lie.

 

Are you seeing anyone else?

I have a friend who lives out of state. We are buddies first. I haven't seen him in X number of months.

 

How did your last relationship end?

He told me he didn't love me and wanted to be free to find someone to love. It hurt at the time, but I know I dodged a bullet.

 

How did your marriage end?

We grew apart. We wanted different things. He lives 1200 miles away and we are kind to each other, but probably only speak 3-4 times a year.

 

How many men have you slept with?

A lot. I was in the military and had a lot of fun in my 20s. I never hurt anyone and I've settled down considerably in the last 10 years.

 

How many is a lot?

I'm not even going to do a ballpark guess.

 

I've never had a date ask me if I've been to swingers parties or bdsm events. But I know some of the men I've dated would have some sort of mass orgy in mind.

 

Oh - and just so we are clear, I don't go to these events while I'm dating.

A dishonest woman is not a great catch to me. Lying and cheating are huge deal breakers. Nevermind the promiscuous behavior. Why not just find a guy ok with who you really are, instead of trying to hoodwink some poor sap who didnt really get a chance to know who you really are?

 

But I guess thats how it is, I gotta change my rules to deal with the selfish users out there.

[xxoo]

Empathy for selfish users? No thanks. Im not wasting my compassion on self-serving users. And I have been delaying my gratification for a while. No longer.

 

Don't you see that is how the good women will view you going forward?

 

That's why I asked: what is your goal? What does it mean to "get yours"?

 

We actively create our realities. Be careful what you wish for!

[kaylan]

Don't you see that is how the good women will view you going forward?

 

That's why I asked: what is your goal? What does it mean to "get yours"?

 

We actively create our realities. Be careful what you wish for!

Getting mine, means enjoying myself. Its not my job to look out for others anymore. "Good women"? Lolz, look Im not that overly concerned with finding a good woman right now. Im just gonna have my fun and not even bother wasting time being bothered by the fact that Ive been encountering so many lame chicks.

[fortyninethousand322]

One thing you have to realize is that people treat each other very poorly. The faster you learn this and lower your expectations of others the more at peace with the world you will be.

[xxoo]

Are they lame, or are they role models for having fun and looking out for #1?

[kaylan]

One thing you have to realize is that people treat each other very poorly. The faster you learn this and lower your expectations of others the more at peace with the world you will be.

Thats what Im doing now. Its dog eat dog out there buddy.

Are they lame, or are they role models for having fun and looking out for #1?

They are lame users. I said what I meant.

[RedRobin]

Empathy for selfish users? No thanks. Im not wasting my compassion on self-serving users. And I have been delaying my gratification for a while. No longer.

 

 

Ok. Well, I've felt like you have for awhile. I couldn't bring myself to do it though.

 

 

Use other people just because I feel like I've been used... and times when other people might have felt used by ME, guess what I did... I apologized and said I'm sorry that I hurt them.. that it wasn't my intention... but I'm also sorry that it didn't work out. I'd like to believe it is THIS quality of mine that makes it possible for me to attract and keep some very loving, decent, kind people in my life despite the fact they don't have any single friends (dammit).

 

 

Something for you to consider... the women you hope to attract pay very good attention to how you talk about and treat other women.

 

 

You have no right calling anyone a 'skank' while you yourself seek to indulge in that very same behavior.

 

 

... and FYI... the compassion isn't FOR them... it's for yourself. For all the times you yourself have hurt others with your carelessness... or your own naivete or selfishness... we've all done it. You included.

Edited January 2, 2014 by RedRobin

[Janesays]

 

 

Something for you to consider... the women you hope to attract pay very good attention to how you talk about and treat other women.

 

 

Bingo.

 

I can't tell you how many times I went on a date and had a man rant about how 'most women' are this and that. It turned me off immediately. It didn't matter that they weren't talking about me. In fact, most of them meant the rant as a compliment to me. (It's so great that YOU'RE not like that) But not a single one of those men nabbed a second date with me. I found their attitudes extremely unattractive.

 

Compare that to my husband who, at 32 years old, had very little experience with women and the experiences he did have weren't all that positive. And yet...no whining, no complaining, no bitterness. Compared to every other guy I met, he was so freaking REFRESHING.

 

In fact, I remember cuddling in bed with him once and asking him why he was still so positive and never gave me the 'nice guys finish last speech.' And he replies, "Because I believe that nice guys finish whenever they want too."

 

Oh yeah. I married that one!

[xxoo]

Thats what Im doing now. Its dog eat dog out there buddy.

They are lame users. I said what I meant.

 

Do you think you are being a lame user?

[Woggle]

I would never advocate using anybody or mistreating them but if you don't guard your heart and make yourself aware of how things are these day you will get eating alive. That is just how the world works. People like Kaylan did not make the rules so don't blame him for adapting to them in order to survive in this messed up society. It's not his fault that way too many people see empathy and kindness as something to take advantage of. If you want to blame somebody blame the ones who made it like this.

 

I would never use or mistreat somebody but if I were still single a woman a woman would have to earn it for me to truly show her my heart.

[Mrlonelyone]

I would never advocate using anybody or mistreating them but if you don't guard your heart and make yourself aware of how things are these day you will get eating alive. That is just how the world works. People like Kaylan did not make the rules so don't blame him for adapting to them in order to survive in this messed up society. It's not his fault that way too many people see empathy and kindness as something to take advantage of. If you want to blame somebody blame the ones who made it like this.

 

I would never use or mistreat somebody but if I were still single a woman a woman would have to earn it for me to truly show her my heart.

 

 

Even then you can't ever be too careful. Pre nuptial agreements exist for a reason.

[kaylan]

Bingo.

 

I can't tell you how many times I went on a date and had a man rant about how 'most women' are this and that. It turned me off immediately. It didn't matter that they weren't talking about me. In fact, most of them meant the rant as a compliment to me. (It's so great that YOU'RE not like that) But not a single one of those men nabbed a second date with me. I found their attitudes extremely unattractive.

 

Compare that to my husband who, at 32 years old, had very little experience with women and the experiences he did have weren't all that positive. And yet...no whining, no complaining, no bitterness. Compared to every other guy I met, he was so freaking REFRESHING.

 

In fact, I remember cuddling in bed with him once and asking him why he was still so positive and never gave me the 'nice guys finish last speech.' And he replies, "Because I believe that nice guys finish whenever they want too."

 

Oh yeah. I married that one!

Lmao, I know what to say and not say on a date. Im not dumb enough to throw around generalizations on a date.

Do you think you are being a lame user?

I can learn to be

Edited January 2, 2014 by kaylan

[Mrlonelyone]

Bingo.

 

I can't tell you how many times I went on a date and had a man rant about how 'most women' are this and that. It turned me off immediately. It didn't matter that they weren't talking about me. In fact, most of them meant the rant as a compliment to me. (It's so great that YOU'RE not like that) But not a single one of those men nabbed a second date with me. I found their attitudes extremely unattractive.

 

Compare that to my husband who, at 32 years old, had very little experience with women and the experiences he did have weren't all that positive. And yet...no whining, no complaining, no bitterness. Compared to every other guy I met, he was so freaking REFRESHING.

 

In fact, I remember cuddling in bed with him once and asking him why he was still so positive and never gave me the 'nice guys finish last speech.' And he replies, "Because I believe that nice guys finish whenever they want too."

 

Oh yeah. I married that one!

 

 

 

He sounds like he was lucky to both not get hurt while he was waiting to finish, and to have found a nice girl (not a reformed bad girl) who also waited to finish.

 

 

The problem is, for most really truly nice guys... a reformed bad girl is exactly what they find.

[kaylan]

Ok. Well, I've felt like you have for awhile. I couldn't bring myself to do it though.

 

 

Use other people just because I feel like I've been used... and times when other people might have felt used by ME, guess what I did... I apologized and said I'm sorry that I hurt them.. that it wasn't my intention... but I'm also sorry that it didn't work out. I'd like to believe it is THIS quality of mine that makes it possible for me to attract and keep some very loving, decent, kind people in my life despite the fact they don't have any single friends (dammit).

 

 

Something for you to consider... the women you hope to attract pay very good attention to how you talk about and treat other women.

 

 

You have no right calling anyone a 'skank' while you yourself seek to indulge in that very same behavior.

 

 

... and FYI... the compassion isn't FOR them... it's for yourself. For all the times you yourself have hurt others with your carelessness... or your own naivete or selfishness... we've all done it. You included.

And who said I wanted to be a skank? If I wanted to be a skank I would have slept with that desperate chick who threw herself at me a few weeks back. And I reserve my right to call people skanks when they exhibit skanky behavior.

[Mrlonelyone]

Bingo.

 

I can't tell you how many times I went on a date and had a man rant about how 'most women' are this and that. It turned me off immediately. It didn't matter that they weren't talking about me. In fact, most of them meant the rant as a compliment to me. (It's so great that YOU'RE not like that) But not a single one of those men nabbed a second date with me. I found their attitudes extremely unattractive.

 

Compare that to my husband who, at 32 years old, had very little experience with women and the experiences he did have weren't all that positive. And yet...no whining, no complaining, no bitterness. Compared to every other guy I met, he was so freaking REFRESHING.

 

In fact, I remember cuddling in bed with him once and asking him why he was still so positive and never gave me the 'nice guys finish last speech.' And he replies, "Because I believe that nice guys finish whenever they want too."

 

Oh yeah. I married that one!

 

 

When many of us think of a "nice guy" we think of a guy who finishes and ends up with this kind of situation.

 

 

Basically we don't want to be like the guy in this video describing our wives having had hundreds of boyfriends before meeting us. Funny take on this.

[Mrlonelyone]

Who cares if someone is a "reformed bad girl."

 

People learn from their mistakes, they change, they grow, they evolve.

 

There is a saying in the world....it comes from the Hadith stories and sayings of Muhammad but others have taken it as wise.

 

A man and woman should be evenly yoked in a marriage.

 

Meaning, a man with lots of experience should be with a woman with lots of experience. A man with little experience should be with a woman with little experience.

 

Many really truly deep down nice religious or just very conservative and reserved guys want a woman of similar temperament. They have saved themselves and they want a woman who has saved themselves, for real. Not someone who is a "born again virgin", or someone who has had every hole but one penetrated. Not someone who has gotten their jollies with hot hunks, had children, then had their tubes tied and now wants a nice man with a fat wallet to wait until their wedding day while they bang the best man who has washboard abs. ( I have seen that happen in real life) etc.

 

They also, I say again, don't want to look as pitiful and comical as this guy...

 

 

 

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they are "nice". Kaylan isn't saying that, I'm not, no male in here has said that. What we have said is we want a decent woman. A woman with a history of acting decent towards men, and who acts decent towards me.

 

I have a certain amount of baggage. I am looking for a woman who has about the same baggage or who complements me and I her in various ways.

 

 

Likewise nice men, truly nice men, deserve and should want women who are truly nice and who have been throughout. Why is that such a wrong thing?

 

Here is another fictional example, also from a comedy... it is funny because many men have known women who were just about as brazenly users as this one.

 

Being Forrest Gump and loving Jenny, a reformed bad girl, while she goes out does drugs and supposedly has your baby without giving you the AIDS that killed her makes for a romantic ending to a movie but just about everyone with sperm has to have a question about that.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Mrlonelyone

[RedRobin]

And who said I wanted to be a skank? If I wanted to be a skank I would have slept with that desperate chick who threw herself at me a few weeks back. And I reserve my right to call people skanks when they exhibit skanky behavior.

 

 

You did. That is what this thread is about. You learning how to be a user.

 

 

That's what desperate people do, you know. Because they aren't strong enough to take another path... at least at that time.

 

 

Anyway, I know you are saying this because you want us to talk you out of being an a-hole. You don't have it in you. If you did, you wouldn't start a thread about it... You'd just do it, then come back here and talk about all the women you pumped and dumped, or weaseled into FWB/FB arrangements like the other guy 'skanks' on LS and elsewhere.

[RedRobin]

The problem is, for most really truly nice guys... a reformed bad girl is exactly what they find.

 

 

Baloney.

 

 

It's usually women who are expected to take on the reformed bad boy when he finally decides to settle down.

 

 

Too many people of either gender want to be a bad boy/girl when it is convenient for them... and a nice boy/girl when it is convenient for them... not realizing that either behavior is a habit.

 

 

Choose which habit(s) you want to acquire... because bad habits are very hard to break and also very hard to convince others have been changed.

[SJC2008]

You did. That is what this thread is about. You learning how to be a user.

 

 

That's what desperate people do, you know. Because they aren't strong enough to take another path... at least at that time.

 

 

Anyway, I know you are saying this because you want us to talk you out of being an a-hole. You don't have it in you. If you did, you wouldn't start a thread about it... You'd just do it, then come back here and talk about all the women you pumped and dumped, or weaseled into FWB/FB arrangements like the other guy 'skanks' on LS and elsewhere.

 

It's funny how people that don't succeed in dating have theories about the opposite sex. For you RR it seems like you think most men try to trick women into FWB scenarios. Yes there are men like that out there but for you to beleive that they are the overwhelming majority is totally skewed. The counter argument I have used countless times is that most people are in relationships or married. Ever since my late teens up unti now I've been one of the minority of single people at my workplace, the rest were coupled up or married. So going by your MO the few single men would have women in FWB scenarios and the few single women would be the victims of this. The truth is they were single at the time or stuggled in dating.

 

Kaylan, the best thing to do IS to look out for yourself while not leading someone on or using them (not saying you are). I'm not at a point where I'm looking for marriage or children and I don't know if I'll ever get married so I'm not going to future fake women I meet.

[kaylan]

You did. That is what this thread is about. You learning how to be a user.

 

 

That's what desperate people do, you know. Because they aren't strong enough to take another path... at least at that time.

 

 

Anyway, I know you are saying this because you want us to talk you out of being an a-hole. You don't have it in you. If you did, you wouldn't start a thread about it... You'd just do it, then come back here and talk about all the women you pumped and dumped, or weaseled into FWB/FB arrangements like the other guy 'skanks' on LS and elsewhere.

Where did I say I want to sleep around indiscriminately the way skanks do? I didnt say that. Taking more control of my dating life and being more self serving does not equal sleeping around.

 

And no, I dont want you guys to talk me out of anything. This is exactly why Im disagreeing with those opposed to my new path. Im gonna do like I said I will, and I will keep everyone abreast of updates.