Question - Involving children in D Day

[whichwayisup]

We are subsequently NC, and that's fine. I am more concerned for his kids, and his relationship with them.

 

Is the A really over this time or is NC only for a period of time before it picks up again? Do you want it to continue or are you totally done being the OW and you're moving on?

 

I get your concerned about him, but now it's best to focus on yourself and healing, letting go, detaching and making sure that you heal well.

[WakingUp]

Definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

You and he have betrayed the family unit. They are adults and are old enough to know the true character of their parents. I am a child of cheating parents, I've posted a few times about it. It took 35 years to even get something close to the truth, and lots of bad decisions have been made along the way because I have one parents with values and one who has NPD and warped my reality for over 25 years.

 

They are adults. and quite frankly, it's none of YOUR business. You are the interloper in their family.

 

Hey, thanks for this, but I get it. Their marriage is NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

 

I am looking for feedback on my original post. Not their marriage.

 

But thanks for your attitude.

[almond]

whichwayisup - I think you need to re-read my post.

 

Affairs hurt everybody, and many of times they don't end well especially when caught.

 

Indeed. Hence the reason I tied up my post by saying the following about the affair:

 

Playing with fire and such. People often get burnt, but sometimes, the whole house burns down.

 

Destructive stuff.

 

Bolded part, yet he is just as selfish by cheating and having an affair. He let his kids down, the family unit as one. He let down his family by his selfishness and not putting his wife and kids first. He created this mess by having the A.

 

Sure, I agree. However, this thread was not about what he did. The OP raised the topic about the wife's actions, and I responded on topic. It is clear that the affair caused the mess - I do not feel the need to state the obvious every time I respond to a post. We know the affair was wrong. The OP has admitted this multiple times. I felt no need to re-state it while I was responding to the topic at hand.

 

When people are extremely emotional and pushed past their emotional limit, they do and say things they normally wouldn't do. I think finding out the truth about your (general you) spouse cheating and having an affair can bring out obviously a painful reaction.

 

Again, please re-read my post. What you just said is almost identical to parts of my first post:

 

In my opinion, it's wrong and incredibly selfish, and her anger clouded her thoughts to the point that she lost sight of what is best for her children.

 

People do irrational things when they are in extreme pain. This definitely seems as though it was due to an angry reaction to the affair

 

I don't like that you're implying all this is the BS's fault and she's to blame.

 

I don't like when people put words into my mouth, or jump up and down saying that I've implied things that I haven't.

[WakingUp]

Is the A really over this time or is NC only for a period of time before it picks up again? Do you want it to continue or are you totally done being the OW and you're moving on?

 

I get your concerned about him, but now it's best to focus on yourself and healing, letting go, detaching and making sure that you heal well.

 

There is no more affair. I have been trying to end it for a very long time, without much success I am afraid.

 

I am not interested in being an OW for another minute of another day. He is fully aware of that. That is what prompted his confession.

 

I have spent years setting myself up to be fully emotionally independent of him. I am actually quite relieved that it is over. I can get on with my life now. I am not a cold person, but I have hit my emotional limit.

 

I love him, make no mistake about that. However I will be fine without him.

 

I am so very sorry that it has come to this, and that he has been so devastated by it all. And his whole family.

 

His BW has had my apologies, by the way. Not that they can even mean much at all, really.

 

Thanks WWIU. You call it like you see it, but with compassion, and I respect your posts.

[WakingUp]

Almond and WWIU... can we have a group hug?

 

I think you both agree with each other, and I agree with both of you.

 

Its just the internet... things get read the wrong way.

[whichwayisup]

There is no more affair. I have been trying to end it for a very long time, without much success I am afraid.

 

I am not interested in being an OW for another minute of another day. He is fully aware of that. That is what prompted his confession.

 

I have spent years setting myself up to be fully emotionally independent of him. I am actually quite relieved that it is over. I can get on with my life now. I am not a cold person, but I have hit my emotional limit.

 

I love him, make no mistake about that. However I will be fine without him.

 

I am so very sorry that it has come to this, and that he has been so devastated by it all. And his whole family.

 

His BW has had my apologies, by the way. Not that they can even mean much at all, really.

 

Thanks WWIU. You call it like you see it, but with compassion, and I respect your posts.

 

You rock! And thanks for your kind words.

 

I love bolded part. You are going to be okay. Better than okay once you've healed and live your life again - For you! No more crap and roller coaster ride.

 

A friend of mine recently got dumped badly (non affair related), her guy was just a jerk and probably had bi polar or something.. and she actually is so happy it's over. At first I thought she was a bit nutty, but now I see she genuinally is grateful to have peace again in her life.

[whichwayisup]

Almond and WWIU... can we have a group hug?

 

I think you both agree with each other, and I agree with both of you.

 

Its just the internet... things get read the wrong way.

 

Think I'm slightly tired tonight and not focusing on words and their meanings.

 

Happy New Year and let 2014 be a happy and healthy one for you all. Find the strength to walk away from your A's if you're nearing the end of one and ready to end it once and for all. Though I believe one has to be at their 'enough is enough phase' like Waking was, then you can really let go.

Edited January 4, 2014 by whichwayisup
slighted? it's slightly...see I can't read or write tonight either.

[almond]

Think I'm slightly tired tonight and not focusing on words and their meanings.

 

T- 15 mins and I'll be with you - tired as hell today.

 

Almond and WWIU... can we have a group hug?

 

I think you both agree with each other, and I agree with both of you.

 

Its just the internet... things get read the wrong way.

 

Sorry if I came across as harsh - when I type, it just comes out a bit clinical and direct. I didn't think we were at group hug stage!

 

...but I fricken love a good hug, so I'm down like a fat kid on a see saw.

 

Happy NY girls and boys <3

[MissBee]

I think with adult children (even teens) you have to differentiate between a BS actually willfully putting them at the front of the battle versus them choosing it, and if they are adults and find out about the affair, she can ask them not to get involved but if they choose to anyway, it's not necessarily her fault.

 

My dad is a serial cheater and my mom never told me about the affairs directly but their arguments were overheard and not being deaf or dumb we could put two and two together. When I became an adult, most recently, 2 years ago, was the first time my mom actually spoke to me as an adult about my dad's latest affair. As children she didn't at all do this but by this time we were grown and could clearly see, feel and hear the tension. This OW was very brazen calling our house and saying all kinds of things and I honestly was 2 seconds away from calling her and cussing her out...I was soooo angry! My mom didn't ask me to be angry neither did she encourage me to call this woman but of my own free will, being upset at the situation and of course upset on her behalf I wanted to say something to her and to my dad (I did say stuff to him). Had I called this woman up it wouldn't have at all been at the behest of my mother but my own initiative based on my own feelings.

 

Honestly: cheating sucks for children, adult or not. On one hand it is expected that the BS who gets cheated on should hide and pretend all is well for the children's sake and bottle it all up and make sure the kids don't hate the WS etc, which isn't fair at all and on the other, it isn't fair for children, adult or not to be put in an awkward position. I resented my dad's affairs because as young children we were forced to pretend to not notice their arguments and drama even though it was obvious and as adult children you either have to do the same or you feel the need to say something or take a side...it is very unfair all around.

Edited January 4, 2014 by MissBee

[ClemsonTigers]

No.

 

Have you ever seen what some people are like whose father had cheated on their mother and they knew about it?

 

They are a mess. Ruined for life.

 

Some are bitter. Some hate men or women. Some think ALL men or women cheat. Some see no point in marriage or having kids. Some become cheaters themselves.

 

This doesn't happen to all people who've witness cheating from a parent, but it happens to some. How can we know which ones will be affected like this?

 

Do not subject the kids to that if you can help it. If it were me, I'd keep this away from them to protect them.

 

 

It's not the knowing that ruins their lives it's the adultery that does. "Protecting them" means lying to them about their lives and their families. That's just doubling down on the adulterers injuries to them. The kids end up with two dysfunctional lying parents instead of just one.

 

In my opinion, all healthy and stable children over the age of about 7 should be told about the affair in an age appropriate manner. If it doesn't stop, adult children should be expected to know the difference between right and wrong and certainly choose and support the betrayed parent. Adulterers are not entitled to a cover up nor a continuing relationship with their children. Kids are smart and they can choose whether to cut off a parent - - - even if they have to wait a few years to do it [legally]

 

Forgiveness, if sought, does not mandate reconciliation.

[ClemsonTigers]

as adult children you either have to do the same or you feel the need to say something or take a side...it is very unfair all around.

 

 

Children need to be taught to discern right from wrong and hold themselves and others accountable. If I were to mess up…I'd want my children taking sides and setting me straight. I'd want them fighting for our family versus being afraid to get involved or say anything. If I failed to repent, they'd also know how to implement appropriate boundaries to protect themselves and those they love from my negative influence even to the point of completely cutting me out of their lives, if necessary.

 

Relationships are conditional, IMO.

[WakingUp]

I think with adult children (even teens) you have to differentiate between a BS actually willfully putting them at the front of the battle versus them choosing it, and if they are adults and find out about the affair, she can ask them not to get involved but if they choose to anyway, it's not necessarily her fault.

 

My dad is a serial cheater and my mom never told me about the affairs directly but their arguments were overheard and not being deaf or dumb we could put two and two together. When I became an adult, most recently, 2 years ago, was the first time my mom actually spoke to me as an adult about my dad's latest affair. As children she didn't at all do this but by this time we were grown and could clearly see, feel and hear the tension. This OW was very brazen calling our house and saying all kinds of things and I honestly was 2 seconds away from calling her and cussing her out...I was soooo angry! My mom didn't ask me to be angry neither did she encourage me to call this woman but of my own free will, being upset at the situation and of course upset on her behalf I wanted to say something to her and to my dad (I did say stuff to him). Had I called this woman up it wouldn't have at all been at the behest of my mother but my own initiative based on my own feelings.

 

Honestly: cheating sucks for children, adult or not. On one hand it is expected that the BS who gets cheated on should hide and pretend all is well for the children's sake and bottle it all up and make sure the kids don't hate the WS etc, which isn't fair at all and on the other, it isn't fair for children, adult or not to be put in an awkward position. I resented my dad's affairs because as young children we were forced to pretend to not notice their arguments and drama even though it was obvious and as adult children you either have to do the same or you feel the need to say something or take a side...it is very unfair all around.

 

Miss Bee... with all due respect, I have pointed out that they were wilfully put in the front line. And that I do support honesty. And I agree with you, that children should not be put in an awkward position. I reiterate, there is a time and a way to deal with things, our children are our responsibility.

 

That is the subject of the original post.

[HtotheN]

 

FYI she wasn't a broken down wreck, she was ANGRY. And I don't blame her for that.

 

Hurt usually precedes anger - just saying.

[rumbleseat]

No offence intended, but I would view any story told by a ws of how a d day happened as being biased and very one sided.

 

There are also many variables that affect and answer to the op's question.

 

How old are the children?

Since they are adult children, and it seems that the affair has been going on for some time, they likely knew more about it than either the ws or bs was aware of. There is a very good chance that they knew something was up but never said anything.

 

If this is the case, then being told what is going on and why may be helpful to them. How it is done is the key factor. If it is simply stated as a fact or is given as an answer to a question e.g.- " is dad cheating ? " , then the truth is important. By the age of 20, the children are adults and capable of making the own decisions and forming their own opinions. If their respect for dad goes down because he cheated on mom, then that is something they arrive at on their own. Mom didn't make that happen, they came to that conclusion on their own.

 

If the adult children are overtly asked to take sides, or they are made to feel guilty for their emotional reaction, then that is a different kettle of fish.

 

I really do believe that children, especially adult children, area lot more perceptive usually know a heck of a lot more than a ws will give them credit for. I also believe that honesty is the best policy, and lying about the affair only makes the situation worse.

 

Allowing the children to feel how they feel, and even to take sides if they choose to do so is important ( I am NOT saying that they should be put in a position where they feel the need to choose sides, that is a very different situation). The affair affects them just as much as it does the parents, and they need and deserve e to know what is happening and why.

 

Of course, the ws may not like this, but that's not what matters. What matters is the emotional well being of the children.

 

How they are told is very important.

 

The son or daughter knows something is up and asks about it.

One scenario could be the following conversation : " your mom and I are going through a very rough time right now" the son or daughter asks what is going on and the reply is " I recently found out that your mom was seeing another man, and we are working together to decide where to go from here. No matter what happens, we both love you and will always be here for you. Do you have any questions you want to ask?"

 

The other end of the spectrum:

 

Son or daughters senses something is up and asks about it:

 

The bw gives the following reply" I just found out that your POS father was (bleeping) some other (bleep). How could he do this to me? How could he do this to our family and to you? Don't worry though.We'll be fine without him "

 

The first scenario is both honest and open without running down the ws, while the second is asking the son or daughter to take sides.

[WakingUp]

It's not the knowing that ruins their lives it's the adultery that does. "Protecting them" means lying to them about their lives and their families. That's just doubling down on the adulterers injuries to them. The kids end up with two dysfunctional lying parents instead of just one.

 

In my opinion, all healthy and stable children over the age of about 7 should be told about the affair in an age appropriate manner. If it doesn't stop, adult children should be expected to know the difference between right and wrong and certainly choose and support the betrayed parent. Adulterers are not entitled to a cover up nor a continuing relationship with their children. Kids are smart and they can choose whether to cut off a parent - - - even if they have to wait a few years to do it [legally]

 

Forgiveness, if sought, does not mandate reconciliation.

 

CT... are you a parent? If so, how old are your children? And have you been directly involved in this type of situation?

 

I am not asking for specifics, just interested in your relevance in weighing in on this.

 

Don't know your story, sorry.

[WakingUp]

No offence intended, but I would view any story told by a ws of how a d day happened as being biased and very one sided.

 

There are also many variables that affect and answer to the op's question.

 

How old are the children?

Since they are adult children, and it seems that the affair has been going on for some time, they likely knew more about it than either the ws or bs was aware of. There is a very good chance that they knew something was up but never said anything.

 

If this is the case, then being told what is going on and why may be helpful to them. How it is done is the key factor. If it is simply stated as a fact or is given as an answer to a question e.g.- " is dad cheating ? " , then the truth is important. By the age of 20, the children are adults and capable of making the own decisions and forming their own opinions. If their respect for dad goes down because he cheated on mom, then that is something they arrive at on their own. Mom didn't make that happen, they came to that conclusion on their own.

 

If the adult children are overtly asked to take sides, or they are made to feel guilty for their emotional reaction, then that is a different kettle of fish.

 

I really do believe that children, especially adult children, area lot more perceptive usually know a heck of a lot more than a ws will give them credit for. I also believe that honesty is the best policy, and lying about the affair only makes the situation worse.

 

Allowing the children to feel how they feel, and even to take sides if they choose to do so is important ( I am NOT saying that they should be put in a position where they feel the need to choose sides, that is a very different situation). The affair affects them just as much as it does the parents, and they need and deserve e to know what is happening and why.

 

Of course, the ws may not like this, but that's not what matters. What matters is the emotional well being of the children.

 

How they are told is very important.

 

The son or daughter knows something is up and asks about it.

One scenario could be the following conversation : " your mom and I are going through a very rough time right now" the son or daughter asks what is going on and the reply is " I recently found out that your mom was seeing another man, and we are working together to decide where to go from here. No matter what happens, we both love you and will always be here for you. Do you have any questions you want to ask?"

 

The other end of the spectrum:

 

Son or daughters senses something is up and asks about it:

 

The bw gives the following reply" I just found out that your POS father was (bleeping) some other (bleep). How could he do this to me? How could he do this to our family and to you? Don't worry though.We'll be fine without him "

 

The first scenario is both honest and open without running down the ws, while the second is asking the son or daughter to take sides.

 

Well I agree with this.

 

This is the thing... my opening post was asking whether it was OK to wilfully place them in the initial hysteria.

 

Because I understand how it happened, but I still don't think it was OK.

[Artie Lang]

i believe age appropriate children should be included in such a discussion..... after all, are they not part of the family. why should they be excluded? telling them to "mind your business" is very close-minded. would you as a parent like to be told to do the same if you have an pertinent interest in your children's well-being?

 

i agree that this man needs to make his position clear on the matter and not pussy-foot around it like a coward. the only people who are susceptible to being bad-mouthed are those who run in shame and don't address the situation.

 

the truth hurts sometimes.

[MissBee]

Miss Bee... with all due respect, I have pointed out that they were wilfully put in the front line. And that I do support honesty. And I agree with you, that children should not be put in an awkward position. I reiterate, there is a time and a way to deal with things, our children are our responsibility.

 

That is the subject of the original post.

 

I saw that later on. When I responded I just read your initial post.

 

Our minor children are our responsibility but I think when they're adults the dynamic becomes a little different in terms of how much control you have and the level of protection a parent may feel with regards to information, as in my own example between when I was a child vs. an adult.

[almond]

This thread isn't about whether children should or should not be informed of an affair. It's about whether they should be called up and included in the dday blowout, with both parents as well as the mistress present. OP was looking for responses relating to her specific experience.

 

Perhaps another thread is warranted, as it appears that people wish to share their opinion re: telling children about an affair? It is an interesting topic, and I would suggest that it is highly dependent upon the individual circumstances, as well as the particular people involved. But, this isn't the thread for it. OP has stated that she is not against honesty and openness re: adult children in this instance.

[WakingUp]

i believe age appropriate children should be included in such a discussion..... after all, are they not part of the family. why should they be excluded? telling them to "mind your business" is very close-minded. would you as a parent like to be told to do the same if you have an pertinent interest in your children's well-being?

 

i agree that this man needs to make his position clear on the matter and not pussy-foot around it like a coward. the only people who are susceptible to being bad-mouthed are those who run in shame and don't address the situation.

 

the truth hurts sometimes.

 

Yep, the truth hurts. I am not talking about mind your business, I am not talking about dishonesty. A discussion is very different to dragging them purposefully into a very nasty scene.

 

And I agree with your last paragraph. But I am not sure you read the thread fully before posting, but that is OK, I have been guilty of that too.

[WakingUp]

This thread isn't about whether children should or should not be informed of an affair. It's about whether they should be called up and included in the dday blowout, with both parents as well as the mistress present. OP was looking for responses relating to her specific experience.

 

Perhaps another thread is warranted, as it appears that people wish to share their opinion re: telling children about an affair? It is an interesting topic, and I would suggest that it is highly dependent upon the individual circumstances, as well as the particular people involved. But, this isn't the thread for it. OP has stated that she is not against honesty and openness re: adult children in this instance.

 

I wasn't there for the blowout. I received several phone calls at the time.

 

However, I believe in being honest with children... they have fully formed bull!!!! detectors, in my experience.

 

Thanks, because you get it.

[Artie Lang]

It's about whether they should be called up and included in the dday blowout, with both parents as well as the mistress present.

 

ok then, i say yes. when a family is facing a dilemma(a tragedy, death of a loved one, a drastic change in family dynamics) isn't it prudent for all to be included? what you fail to realize is that this(infidelity) is a family issue..... hence, it involves the whole family. people who cheat not only cheat on their spouse, but their WHOLE family. some of these BS's are looking for some support. why shouldn't age appropriate children be involved in a D-day..... sort of like an intervention?

 

the issue of whether or not the children should be involved stems from the fact that a cheater can't accept the fact that their childrens' perception of them will be blown to smithereens. they want to project a wholesome façade..... they don't want to be labeled as a no-good, lying, cheater by their own children. i mean seriously, who wants their children to be ashamed of them. probably one of the worst feelings imaginable.

[WakingUp]

ok then, i say yes. when a family is facing a dilemma(a tragedy, death of a loved one, a drastic change in family dynamics) isn't it prudent for all to be included? what you fail to realize is that this(infidelity) is a family issue..... hence, it involves the whole family. people who cheat not only cheat on their spouse, but their WHOLE family. some of these BS's are looking for some support. why shouldn't age appropriate children be involved in a D-day..... sort of like an intervention?

 

the issue of whether or not the children should be involved stems from the fact that a cheater can't accept the fact that their childrens' perception of them will be blown to smithereens. they want to project a wholesome façade..... they don't want to be labeled as a no-good, lying, cheater by their own children. i mean seriously, who wants their children to be ashamed of them. probably one of the worst feelings imaginable.

 

I get this.

 

As I said, do the crime, do the time.

 

Own your stuff.

 

But I still stand by everything else I have said.

 

That children should be treated tactfully and appropriately. And whatever the situation, they need both parents.

 

And a marriage is between two people. It is their business.

[almond]

I wasn't there for the blowout. I received several phone calls at the time.

 

However, I believe in being honest with children... they have fully formed bull!!!! detectors, in my experience.

 

Thanks, because you get it.

 

Sorry, I must have misread.

 

ok then, i say yes. when a family is facing a dilemma(a tragedy, death of a loved one, a drastic change in family dynamics) isn't it prudent for all to be included? what you fail to realize is that this(infidelity) is a family issue..... hence, it involves the whole family. people who cheat not only cheat on their spouse, but their WHOLE family. some of these BS's are looking for some support. why shouldn't age appropriate children be involved in a D-day..... sort of like an intervention?

 

the issue of whether or not the children should be involved stems from the fact that a cheater can't accept the fact that their childrens' perception of them will be blown to smithereens. they want to project a wholesome façade..... they don't want to be labeled as a no-good, lying, cheater by their own children. i mean seriously, who wants their children to be ashamed of them. probably one of the worst feelings imaginable.

 

The initial confrontation will be incredibly emotionally charged, and quite nasty I imagine. I see no benefit in having children not only witness, but be involved in this. You liken it to an intervention, but the two are far from comparable.

 

I hardly fail to realise that infidelity impacts the entire family - where on earth did you pull that from? Again, I outlined this in my first post of this thread.

 

Now, what you have failed to realise is: the issue of children being involved or excluded from dday does NOT stem solely from the cheater's need to preserve their image. What a silly thing to say! The welfare of the children, and sparing them from unnecessary damage should (and I imagine, would) be the main concern.

 

Nothing in your post even comes close to demonstrating that having children present during the dday conversation is better than informing them of the infidelity in a calm and controlled manner. You have stated that it is a family affair and all should be involved. My parents created a little sister for me, but I didn't need to watch them do it You have failed to acknowledge that the delivery of such traumatising information (the infidelity of a parent) is something that should be carefully considered, and the damage to innocent parties (whilst maintaining honesty) should be minimised wherever practical.

Edited January 4, 2014 by almond

[WakingUp]

Sorry, I must have misread.

 

 

 

The initial confrontation will be incredibly emotionally charged, and quite nasty I imagine. I see no benefit in having children not only witness, but be involved in this. You liken it to an intervention, but the two are far from comparable.

 

I hardly fail to realise that infidelity impacts the entire family - where on earth did you pull that from? Again, I outlined this in my first post of this thread.

 

Now, what you have failed to realise is: the issue of children being involved or excluded from dday does NOT stem solely from the cheater's need to preserve their image. What a silly thing to say! The welfare of the children, and sparing them from unnecessary damage should (and I imagine, would) be the main concern.

 

Nothing in your post even comes close to demonstrating that having children present during the dday conversation is better than informing them of the infidelity in a calm and controlled manner. You have stated that it is a family affair and all should be involved. My parents created a little sister for me, but I didn't need to watch them do it You have failed to acknowledge that the delivery of such traumatising information (the infidelity of a parent) is something that should be carefully considered, and the damage to innocent parties (whilst maintaining honesty) should be minimised wherever practical.

 

THIS! This is what I am trying to say... thank you!

 

Anyone who has children, or understands, realises that you can deliver facts without a great deal of trauma.