lollipopspot Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 What are people's thoughts about the idea of karma? If you believe in it, why exactly? What is your evidence? We all know people who have done lousy things, immoral things, and have pretty nice lives. So if there is karma, it can't be confined to this life. It presupposes some afterlife or reincarnation. If I can shape the kind of answer I am hoping for in this thread: When people say things like "Everything happens for a reason!" or give pat answers that the bible or another religion gives them an answer, that is extremely unsatisfying to me. I like to hear evidence, experience, thought-out answers that don't come from faith or acceptance of some precept without thinking about all the consequences and non faith-based reasons for some belief. Karma would certainly be a comforting thought - that no one gets away with bad behavior, especially if we have been wronged - but what is the evidence for this belief? Link to post Share on other sites
Author lollipopspot Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Everyone does get what they deserve eventually. Can't you think of a lot of examples where that's not the case? That's why if karma were real, it must not happen in the span of one lifetime. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I don't know if it is karma but if you mistreat and wrong enough people in life eventually one of them is not going to take it lying down and will get you back. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
FitChick Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Karma can happen in this lifetime or the next or the next. Why risk it? Be good! Link to post Share on other sites
Author lollipopspot Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Karma can happen in this lifetime or the next or the next. Why risk it? Be good! Why would you think it happens at all? It's not even about oneself being good. It's philosophically about if there is justice in the world, even when it doesn't exist in the present. Link to post Share on other sites
MuddyFootprints Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I believe in universal balance. I don't believe that vengeance has a balancing effect. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
MuddyFootprints Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 What if the word be was changed to do? Link to post Share on other sites
Author lollipopspot Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 I believe in universal balance. Why? Please not the "things happen for a reason" type of answer, which is pure faith. What rational thing causes you to believe this? Link to post Share on other sites
MuddyFootprints Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 In my experience, the energy I put out I eventually get back. Link to post Share on other sites
John83 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I dont know. I like to believe in it and make a point to treat others how i like to be treated. I have seen some downright rotten people go though life without getting their come upance. I have always tried to be kind and helpfull to everyone to point of being took advantage off but seem to get repayed with bad karma as nothing ever comes up a winner. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Please read the link in my signature. Open to further discussion..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I dont know. I like to believe in it and make a point to treat others how i like to be treated. I have seen some downright rotten people go though life without getting their come upance. I have always tried to be kind and helpfull to everyone to point of being took advantage off but seem to get repayed with bad karma as nothing ever comes up a winner. Because you misunderstand the workings of Karma, this will always be a bone of contention for you. Until you understand the workings of Karma, that is.... Link to post Share on other sites
John83 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Because you misunderstand the workings of Karma, this will always be a bone of contention for you. Until you understand the workings of Karma, that is.... I thought it was another name for what goes around comes around? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
A3sthetics Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 There's evidence in knowledge of what karma is. It's like a brain teaser. An illusion. When you see two people, and you are the third, you can see perhaps one person cheat on the other. Then, later on they lose the new one and the old partner found a 'better' one. You, being that 3rd party observer, see "karma". That's the illusion. "Karma" only exists, so long as someone observes it, based on their following of the situation and interpretation of what constitutes a sort of payback. In other words, that person who cheated, and got "karma", well from their vantage point, they might see that as some humbling experience that they'll not do again next time. Link to post Share on other sites
Mario79 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) I always felt karma, was just like the golden rule. But for karma if I do something I know is wrong it will set of a chain of events where that wrong will come back to me, but even sometimes we cant see that the bad things that happen to us can be a blessings but we couldnt know unless we have an account of everything that happened that lead to that action come back to us. That is believing that everything is connected in some form or way. But you would still need to know what feels right and wrong to you. Kinda like being a by stander while some injustice is happening in front of you, not doing anything is like allowing a bad thing to happen does that mean you will get bad karma for it? Or stealing from the rich and giving to the poor still means you are doing something considered amoral for something you consider moral. Will you get good karma for it? As for an example, I once lost my car keys while lying down on the grass in a national park, I hadnt notice until a stranger said he spent like 1 hour looking for me and gave me they key back. I thought to myself that has never happened to me. Right person at the right time. I would like believe that just like gravity there are some kind of balancing rules for actions as well. And to add to that, the reason I was at that park was because I drove some people I had just recently met who wanted to go see this place but couldnt do it, and I offered to help. I think that comes into play as well. I hope anyways. :bunny: Edited January 10, 2014 by Mario79 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I thought it was another name for what goes around comes around? You thought wrong..... That's an interpretation based on ignorance. And I don't mean that disparagingly. I mean it as in 'ignorance = I don't know'.... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 There's evidence in knowledge of what karma is. It's like a brain teaser. An illusion. When you see two people, and you are the third, you can see perhaps one person cheat on the other. Then, later on they lose the new one and the old partner found a 'better' one. You, being that 3rd party observer, see "karma". That's the illusion. "Karma" only exists, so long as someone observes it, based on their following of the situation and interpretation of what constitutes a sort of payback. In other words, that person who cheated, and got "karma", well from their vantage point, they might see that as some humbling experience that they'll not do again next time. Incorrect. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I always felt karma, was just like the golden rule. But for karma if I do something I know is wrong it will set of a chain of events where that wrong will come back to me, but even sometimes we cant see that the bad things that happen to us can be a blessings but we couldnt know unless we have an account of everything that happened that lead to that action come back to us. That is believing that everything is connected in some form or way. But you would still need to know what feels right and wrong to you. Kinda like being a by stander while some injustice is happening in front of you, not doing anything is like allowing a bad thing to happen does that mean you will get bad karma for it? Or stealing from the rich and giving to the poor still means you are doing something considered amoral for something you consider moral. Will you get good karma for it? As for an example, I once lost my car keys while lying down on the grass in a national park, I hadnt notice until a stranger said he spent like 1 hour looking for me and gave me they key back. I thought to myself that has never happened to me. Right person at the right time. I would like believe that just like gravity there are some kind of balancing rules for actions as well. And to add to that, the reason I was at that park was because I drove some people I had just recently met who wanted to go see this place but couldnt do it, and I offered to help. I think that comes into play as well. I hope anyways. :bunny: The problem with this viewpoint, if I may put it that way, is that we still see a necessity for reward, for doing something good, and retribution for doing something bad.... Karma 'is'. It just 'is'. It is what we think, say and do. It's Action. Mental, verbal or physical, it's what we enact, in a pre-meditated, deliberate way, even if it's a knee-jerk reaction, we've pulled the trigger.... There is an old Taoist parable. It begins with a poor farmer in ancient China who worked a small plot of land with his teenage son. During this time horses were considered a sign of wealth; the richest person in the province owned no more than a few of them. One day a wild horse jumped the poor farmer’s fence and began grazing on his land. According to local law, this meant that the horse now rightfully belonged to him and his family. The son could hardly contain his joy, but the father put his hand on his son’s shoulder and said, “Who knows what’s good or bad?” The next day the horse made its escape back to the mountains and the boy was heartbroken. “Who knows what’s good or bad?” his father said again. On the third day the horse returned with a dozen wild horses following. “We’re rich!” the son cried, to which the father again replied, “Who knows what’s good or bad?” On the fourth day the boy climbed on one of the wild horses and was thrown, breaking his leg. His father ran to get the doctor; soon both of them were attending to the boy, who was upset and in a great deal of pain. The old farmer looked deeply into his son’s eyes, and said, “My son, who knows what is good or bad?” And on the fifth day the province went to war. Army recruiters came through the town and took all the eligible young men to fight the war. All except for the young man with the broken leg. Or as Shakespeare once put it so succinctly, “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” 1 Link to post Share on other sites
A3sthetics Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 u seem kinda aggressive? Buddhist are supposed to be calm, are you sure you're a real one? Link to post Share on other sites
dichotomy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people. If your looking for justice or people getting what they deserve...well then keep waiting. I used to get angry about this - given my spiritual background , but then I kind of settled into non-spiritual view of the "the powers that be.... help those…. who help themselves". Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 u seem kinda aggressive? Buddhist are supposed to be calm, are you sure you're a real one? Aggressive? me?? in what way? And where is it written that 'Buddhists are supposed to be calm'....? This is another public misconception. An image conjured up by perceptions, similar to those where people suppose the French all wear striped t-shirts, berets and have strings of onions round their necks, and that Italians all eat pasts and pizzas, are fat, jolly and can all sing Verdi Arias.... Trust me, with all the crap we have to process, it's amazing we remain as level-headed as we do!! Link to post Share on other sites
mea_M Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Nope! Not a believer. I think wishing karma on people is full of negative because more often enough It come from a place of revenge and anger. Two very toxic ways of dealing with life IMO! Instead, wish a person reform if they need it. It's much more productive and peaceful. Mea :-) Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 "Wishing karma" upon people is impossible. The way people talk about karma here is a misnomer; it's a mistake. What they really want to talk about is revenge/come-uppance. But using the word 'karma' makes it sound as if it's a "spiritual process bequeathed by the universe" so it exonerates them from the guilt of apportioning blame, or having ill-feelings. People put 'Karma' "out there" as if to distance themselves from this debilitating desire for revenge. People don't like to admit they wish someone else would hurt, feel pain, be miserable, get what's coming to them. That's just misguided, nasty and hanging on to bad feelings. So, let's call it 'Karma'. That way, someone/something else, will bring them the aforementioned hurt, pain or misery, and we can just sit back, gloat and feel self-satisfied. people: Karma doesn't do that. For the last time, either call it what it is - "I want them to suffer" - or get it right. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
ThatMan Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 If I can shape the kind of answer I am hoping for in this thread: When people say things like "Everything happens for a reason!" or give pat answers that the bible or another religion gives them an answer, that is extremely unsatisfying to me. I like to hear evidence, experience, thought-out answers that don't come from faith or acceptance of some precept without thinking about all the consequences and non faith-based reasons for some belief. Karma is a spiritual interpretation of reality. You do not need to agree with the idea of karma but it would be nice to respect views that are different from your own. Anyone is capable of believing in their just rewards. What's important is your own beliefs alongside the knowledge of what you want in a compatible relationship. Sometimes relationships become outright dysfunctional when a spouse believes that their sacrifices, or even being in a state of denial to pay off. Then this they feel bitter once that reward never came. In psychology the term to describe this dysfunction is called Heaven’s Reward Fallacy. The spouse who accepts an ongoing affair, or the woman who gives up her hobbies to spend time with her boyfriend, there are many examples of those who silently await a big payout through the idea of, "You get what you give." Even secular relationships might involve some of these dysfunctional interactions. There is nothing unreasonable about wanting a relationship free of this behavior. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Karma is a spiritual interpretation of reality..... in some quarters, yes, it is. But specifically, not in Buddhism. Do read the link in my signature. I make it quite clear that Karma simply means 'volitional, intentional Action'. There's nothing 'spiritual' about exercising free will.... Link to post Share on other sites
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