Did karma get your cheating ex

[Raena]

I am part Indian and let me say this - the actual teachings of both Siddhartha Buddha and Mahavira Jina encourage some pretty anti social behaviour and thinking - and don't let me get started on some of the fundamentals of Hinduism. We have evolved in our thinking as a species - we should try not to move backwards in time.

 

Please note that I am as spiritual as they get but even the Old Testament is a pretty scary and vile place to go.

 

I am also part Middle Eastern - we seem to have touched onthe essence of Kismet (something that is held dear by the two real opposing elements in the Middle East - the Semites and the Indo-Aryans) - the discussion was covered by fate and destiny for those who are interested. I am not sure that anyone is destined to be punished for cheating or is destined to cheat - this is not the essence of kismet. It's more to do with trying to change what cannot be changed.

 

The real "instant karma" (God bless John Lennon) is that cheating causes pain - normally to both, the betrayed and the cheater. And from what I have learned from forums like this one, having been cheated on, is that without true acceptance and remorse, this pain cannot really be alleviated.

 

I'll return to my wooden box in Hyde Park Corner now - sorry for the mini rant.

 

I have a feeling this is going way off the original topic of whether or not your cheating ex has been "punished" so to speak for their ill actions.

 

But... having said that, I find myself analyzing and discussing the idea of fate, destiny, kismet, karma quite a bit lately. It fascinates me. I've only had very superficial discussions about this with others as most people (in my life) tend to not want to discuss what it really means.

 

So what does it really mean? We are able to make our own choices in life so where does destiny and fate mix into that? Where does Kismet fit into that? It seems like that word has yet another meaning beyond fate and destiny.

 

If we are able to make our own choices in life, then why would one choose to cheat knowing full well that it will hurt loved ones? It's never really made any sense to me. Why chose to hurt someone that you made a commitment to and professed to love and cherish? It almost seems (from the hurting BS point of view) that swallowing that hurtful poison spewed from the WS would be that much easier to do knowing that in the end, he/she will get what is coming to him/her.

 

I do agree with you though that the only way to get past all of that is to let it go, accept it for what it is and move on. Getting revenge doesn't solve anything.

[miguelcervantes]

Well then the answer for me would still be no... I do not think the universe has punished me for our affair.

 

 

 

The thing is though that this is one event in my life, not the sum of my life. I'm not a bad person who's bad to people. The fact I had an affair would surprise most people. But overall, I don't give bad things in life, and any bad things I do get are generally just bad things that all people have happen to them.

 

 

 

Not really. Karma is the action. And fate and destiny are things that happen regardless of action. They're predetermined.

 

Do I think I was fated to have an affair? No. Was I destined to be with my husband? I think so.

 

 

 

People say that to the BS and the people who cheat because they don't know what else to say.

 

Well, we already have a child together and he got a vasectomy and I got a balloon ab. I tend to think that if I can't get pregnant, it's due to a conscious choice between the two of us, paired with advances in medicine and not an act of "karma." Considering both of us arrived at our choices in birth control after a conversation that went something like "I'd rather set my hair on fire than have more kids" "he, me too!" I don't think either one of us will leave or view it as a punishment for our affair.

 

 

In fact, I was trying for children with my husband before the affair, no viable pregnancies, tons of losses. We all thought pregnancy was not an option, then surprise! We got pregnant and the pregnancy maintained.

 

REWARD FOR CHEATING

 

 

 

His actually subscribes to the same school of thought you do in that true karma is nothing short of Godzilla stomping through our house after we've both been diagnosed with cancer, but I digress. Again, I think she's taken it upon herself to imagine we're secretly miserable, on the rocks, and that gives her happiness.

 

 

If it happens whether you attribute it to karma or not, then it seems to me the punishment of karma is more for the people hoping you get it than for the person who you believe deserves it. One would think that karma would be this punitive force that, no matter what, when you get it, you know it. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

 

If you really want to break it down, have bad things happened to us? Sure, of course they have. But was it karma or was it life? I mean, the pregnancy that resulted in my our child was originally one where I was carrying triplets, but I lost two... Is that karma or is that the fact that my body can't maintain a pregnancy and so it was a miracle to keep the one? He had a surgical procedure that should have been simple, but instead he got infected and he got sick with a recovery period of a week instead of a day. Karma or surgical complication that happens to anybody? I contracted Lyme disease and had wild issues because of it. Still do. Karma or a summer in New England? Everybody I know has contracted Lyme disease at one point or another. We bought a new car together and at mile 700, it broke down and left us stranded by the side of the road. Karma or a lemon? They paid for a year of car payments and we got a new transmission with extended warranty, so despite the initial hassle, we got actually a good deal.

 

 

I mean, I can tick off every bad thing that's happened to us since the start of our affair, both the emotional end and the physical end, and we could play this game of "is it karma?" But the truth of the matter is the things that happened to us happen to a lot of people. Good people. Cars break down, surgeries have complications, miscarriages happen (especially to women prone to them already), even the Lyme disease... It just happens, and it probably would have happened to us (if it didn't already) even if we didn't have the affair.

 

 

And for every bad thing, I can think of just as many and more amazing things that happened, things that probably would have never happened if we weren't together. We're married, something we never thought would happen. We've been together with each other longer than we were with our ex's. We have our child, something that happened for us naturally despite my trying with somebody else for almost 5 years. Our child changed me for the better and became the reason behind the best relationship I've ever had with my family. And because of our relationship I have two step children, whom I adore, and who adore me as well. I got my absolute dream job, something I'd have never pursued if it weren't for him. That dream job has meant everything from income free trips, even walking the red carpet at movie premières. All of this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't gone on an extravagant vacation. And that same extravagant vacation, which we loved doing, motivated us to be debt-free, and we nearly are. Now we take a lot of extravagant vacations several times a year. I recovered to a functional life despite a heart condition that was supposed to be debilitating and fatal, and that recovery pushed me to lofty goals, one of which was a half marathon which we ran and completed last November. And I'm running another half again in about a month, which means an extravagant vacation. Financially, we are both better off than we ever have been. And personally, we're both happier than we've ever been in our lives. We have a really, really good life.

 

 

So do we say "ha ha, she got Lyme and sometimes she can't remember her name or stand up without a cane and she's got early arthritis before she's 40, there's their comeuppance!" or do we say "they go on vacations, they have disposable income, no debt, three beautiful kids that they love and who love them, they're obviously happy together... Karma will get them one day..."?

 

 

That's where it's a matter of perspective, I guess. I tend to think though, when we die, be it in a month, a year, or a century, I'll have people standing over my casket and saying "Karma finally got her.".

 

 

 

Well we could have a debate forever on this one. I could say that we're all bad, in one way or another, to somebody or to ourselves. I could ask who defines bad? Or if it's a singular bad thing that defines the whole of a person, like an affair, or if it's a overall "bad" person we're talking about. Then we could talk about who defines what the bad karma is, like I did above... Or we could debate that during the divorce, his spouse and family did just as many "bad" things, so does that mean the karma train is coming to her too? Or does karma pick who karma likes least and punish them?

 

REWRITING HISTORY/GASLIGHTING ?

 

And then, there's the classic "sometimes nothing happens to bad people while good people get the low end of the stick every day."

 

 

Again, it's starting to appear as if the idea of concept isn't so much something that's fear of those who scorned, but wishful projection upon those who were scorned.

 

 

That's why this western concept of Karma, this "you cross me, the universe will get you" is a flawed one, especially when compared to the Eastern concept of karma, where karma is the consequence of an action, good or bad. You blow out a candle, the karma is the flame goes out.

 

 

Western concepts of karma would be trying to figure out what the flame did to deserve being blown out and attributing it to the bad nature of the flame itself.

 

 

 

 

Oh of course not, what at all could possibly be negative about telling a stranger that their "karma" will come by the way of their children and otherwise predicting doom, gloom, and death towards somebody who admits to having an affair. All seems quite positive to me.

 

 

Sorry about the double post... My tablet obviously hiccupped.

 

Pretty self-serving don't you think ... I am not saying that I am correct in any of the above conclusions, but you did ask where I got the idea of being rewarded for cheating etc.

[miguelcervantes]

Hmmm... To be fair, she was never incestuous, it was the easiest charge against a woman who an advisor to the King, who she'd threatened to undo get executed, to fabricate. It allowed him to not only remove her with one swoop, but her powerful family, who'd also surely seek revenge for her wrongful death or have her restored to the throne. The King already had a new wife in mind, a woman put before him by said advisor, so he wasn't inclined to disbelieve the charges, as he wanted her removed anyway. History nearly unanimously remembers her as wrongfully accused and convicted, therefore, faithful in her marriage.

 

The degree of her affair is also something debated. While certainly an emotional affair, it didn't turn physical until after Henry essentially married and divorced himself. So technically an affair because he had no authority to do so, but in his mind, not an affair as he gave himself the power to marry and divorce as he saw fit... Being the king and head of the newly formed church and all. In fact, her sexual and physical withholding is what made her famous, and probably the only reason she lasted so long in the King's attention.

 

Also, she was between 35 and 40 when she died, not exactly short lived for the time.

 

Anne also had the distinction of being one of the most powerful women in England, the source of a major religious movement that is still adhered to by current royals in England, and the mother of arguably one of the most famous, influential, and well-loved queens of all time.

 

I was being cheeky when I chose the forum name, but I am quite the Henry the 8th history buff and find Anne to be very fascinating.

 

 

Lets agree to disagree on a few things here as it is off topic. I am not a buff by any means but do have access to quite a network of authorities on this subject and actually started out like you, quite liking Anne Boleyn (from Anne of a 1000 days). However lets just say that when the Greeks and Romans came up with the idea of Europa and proceeded to assemble nations from warring tribes in Helvetica, Caledonia, Germania and Espana among other regions, their ideas of morality, law and structure for a ruling body for these nations were far removed from the behaviour of King Hal 8 AND his daughter, Lizzie the first. Elizabeth the First did not necessarily come from the best gene stock and there were other families around that would have provided far more nobler bloodlines. Anyway part of who she was is what made her one of the most successful and feared monarchs of her time (not necessarily the most loved - I guess the love came after the success - everyone loves a winner, eh). The formation of the reformed church here had less to do with its links to the Protestant movement and more to do with the politics of the new emerging Europe at the time which is why the Anglican Church is the most different protestant church there is and is still the nearest to the Catholic Church. I do agree that Anne Boleyn did get a rough ride for her ambitions.

 

But lets do this on a different forum and different place. Back to the Karma bus discussion ...

[peruano99]

Well she got an incurable STD so I guess she did.

[TaraMaiden]

I am part Indian and let me say this - the actual teachings of both Siddhartha Buddha and Mahavira Jina encourage some pretty anti social behaviour and thinking

 

I confess, straight up, I know little or next to nothing about Hindusim, so I refrain from any comment, but I would welcome input and reference to the teachings you cite as encouraging anti-social behaviour in Buddhism.

Thanks.

 

And yes, by all means, if you do not see fit to respond here, I'd welcome a good, well-balanced and good-natured discussion in a different thread.

 

- and don't let me get started on some of the fundamentals of Hinduism. We have evolved in our thinking as a species - we should try not to move backwards in time.

Thank you, but I can't comment.....

 

Please note that I am as spiritual as they get but even the Old Testament is a pretty scary and vile place to go.

Also true, but most Christians tend to focus on the NT. I take your point, but as you say.... not wholly relevant to this thread.

 

...The real "instant karma" (God bless John Lennon) is that cheating causes pain - normally to both, the betrayed and the cheater. And from what I have learned from forums like this one, having been cheated on, is that without true acceptance and remorse, this pain cannot really be alleviated.

The concept of 'sin' does not really feature in Buddhism as such; but remorse and Effort to refrain from Unskilful, Unwholesome actions is part of following the Eightfold path, and adherence to the precepts, particularly (for Laypeople) the first five to eight........

 

I'll return to my wooden box in Hyde Park Corner now - sorry for the mini rant.

I strongly object to mini-rants when they're insulting, objectionable, wildly inaccurate and sexist (happens here.... )

Your comments don't fall into those categories.

 

Please, feel free to begin a new thread on the above, I'd be interested to exchange views - and even learn a few things! Always open to that!

[Raena]

Well she got an incurable STD so I guess she did.

 

Wait... your SO cheated and got an incurable STI from it? Well, that is certainly (instant) karma right there!

 

Hopefully you managed to steer clear of getting the same STI!

[TaraMaiden]

Wait... your SO cheated and got an incurable STI from it? Well, that is certainly (instant) karma right there!

 

Hopefully you managed to steer clear of getting the same STI!

 

One cannot for sure, for sure, designate this even to her Karma. All we know is that it is A consequence of her having cheated. But it may not be THE specific consequence of her Karma....

 

This is where judgement has come in, and people believing just deserts have been served.....

 

Just as it is not for us to fully understand precisely how dafuq Karma/Vipaka works, so we should maintain a resistance to judgement regarding consequences.

 

This is a consequence that will affect her for the rest of her days, make her uncomfortable and distressed.

 

Are we saying she deserves to pay painfully, uncomfortably and by being socially stigmatised, for this transgression for the remainder of her life?

[Raena]

One cannot for sure, for sure, designate this even to her Karma. All we know is that it is A consequence of her having cheated. But it may not be THE specific consequence of her Karma....

 

This is where judgement has come in, and people believing just deserts have been served.....

 

Just as it is not for us to fully understand precisely how dafuq Karma/Vipaka works, so we should maintain a resistance to judgement regarding consequences.

 

This is a consequence that will affect her for the rest of her days, make her uncomfortable and distressed.

 

Are we saying she deserves to pay painfully, uncomfortably and by being socially stigmatised, for this transgression for the remainder of her life?

 

Yes Tara, yes! If she in fact got the STI due to her transgressions, then yes, she has to live with that for the rest of her life. I don't care what you call it, she did it to herself. That's the consequence that she got when she chose to stray.

 

Just as... those who cheat and leave their spouse for their OW/OM will have to live with the fact that their relationship caused a great deal of pain for other(s) and started with a LIE. No matter how long they stay together after the fact, it still started with a LIE and it HURT others. Ignoring it and pretending that life is in fact good despite the choices made that hurt others doesn't change the fact that they did in fact deliberately hurt others.

[TaraMaiden]

Yes Tara, yes! If she in fact got the STI due to her transgressions, then yes, she has to live with that for the rest of her life. I don't care what you call it, she did it to herself. That's the consequence that she got when she chose to stray.

 

Just as... those who cheat and leave their spouse for their OW/OM will have to live with the fact that their relationship caused a great deal of pain for other(s) and started with a LIE. No matter how long they stay together after the fact, it still started with a LIE and it HURT others. Ignoring it and pretending that life is in fact good despite the choices made that hurt others doesn't change the fact that they did in fact deliberately hurt others.

 

There is a world of difference between an act affecting us emotionally, and deciding that someone else's act has affected them physically.

It seems like this woman got it with both barrels.

I think assuming that someone else is suffering in more ways than one, and being satisfied or gladdened by that, erodes our ability to cultivate compassion.

 

I would hate someone to feel that way about me, as you do about her.

 

That's all....

[Raena]

There is a world of difference between an act affecting us emotionally, and deciding that someone else's act has affected them physically.

It seems like this woman got it with both barrels.

I think assuming that someone else is suffering in more ways than one, and being satisfied or gladdened by that, erodes our ability to cultivate compassion.

 

I would hate someone to feel that way about me, as you do about her.

 

That's all....

 

All I'm speaking is the truth. She did it to herself. This isn't something that her ex did to her. I didn't say it I'm gladdened by it. I never said any such thing. I'm simply saying that she chose to cheat, she obviously chose to do so without using protection and therefore, she got an STI. Of course, this is assuming that she actually got it from the person she cheated with. That hasn't been clarified. She may have gotten it from the next partner. Either way, she put herself in that situation and therefore has to suffer the consequences. Of course, the person who gave it to her also has some part in it as well, but that's another part of the story.

 

Honestly, did you cheat? If you did so, then why would you hate for someone to feel that way about you? Isn't that part and parcel of being the person who chooses to stray? Choosing to be in that situation means that you aren't going to be liked very much and says quite a bit about your character.

 

That's the part about all of this that is very difficult to deal with. Yes, cheaters cheat and yes they hurt the people around them. Are we then to just ignore the fact that they cheated and say "oh but so and so is still a nice person?". They have "changed" and now aren't this awful person who lied and broke their promises? I don't get it.

[TaraMaiden]

That's the part about all of this that is very difficult to deal with. Yes, cheaters cheat and yes they hurt the people around them. Are we then to just ignore the fact that they cheated and say "oh but so and so is still a nice person?". They have "changed" and now aren't this awful person who lied and broke their promises? I don't get it.

 

That doesn't make them awful people.

It makes what they did, awful.

But it doesn't define them completely.

 

Gandhi was estranged from his son, and used to beat both his children when they were young boys.

Does that make him awful, now?

 

You see, if an action is unskilful, then we have to perceive and evaluate that action, not the person.

 

If someone does something foolish, it is better to say, 'that was a stupid thing to do' - but it doesn't make the person, stupid.

 

This is why it is dangerous to assume, presume or state that a consequence is the direct result of an Action.

 

her catching an STD is an accident, because the person who gave it to her, would not have told her that they had this STD.

So, we could say that being lied to was the consequence...

 

One cannot discern karma/Vipaka.

Because whatever we think, say or do, is our Karma.

And making presumptions/judgements about people, and their actions, without knowing them, is a Karmic thing for us.

[Anne Boleyn]

Well then the answer for me would still be no... I do not think the universe has punished me for our affair.

But that's the topic of discussion here... And I see you've taken a lot of my post and removed the context so as to somehow thing I'm telling people that if they have an affair, they'll be rewarded in life. The discussion point is if the universe came together to punish us over a singular event, like an affair, through a serious of events. I said in my case, no, it hasn't, but that's not the same as saying I was rewarded for it.

 

Here I think the issue is not that I'm telling people to have affairs to get what they want, it's that I'm saying I've had an affair, divorced, and married the person that I had the affair with, and I'm not miserable because of it.

In fact, I was trying for children with my husband before the affair, no viable pregnancies, tons of losses. We all thought pregnancy was not an option, then surprise! We got pregnant and the pregnancy maintained.

 

REWARD FOR CHEATING

 

This is not a description of a reward, it's a description of my life. I had a period of prolonged infertility and then I got pregnant with triplets. I lost two through miscarriage, but I carried one to term. That's not a description of a reward, that's me sharing an aspect of my life. Would the alternative to be to deny that we have a child so we can maintain an illusion that's satisfactory about the universe penalizing people for affairs without impunity?

Again, I think she's taken it upon herself to imagine we're secretly miserable, on the rocks, and that gives her happiness.

 

This is true... I think it's one of the ways she comes to grips with some of the questions BS's have raised on this thread.

 

They paid for a year of car payments and we got a new transmission with extended warranty, so despite the initial hassle, we got actually a good deal.

 

This, in the context, is a story about how a negative was turned to a positive. This is not an example of a reward in having an affair. The affair was not a factor in this incident, both the car breaking down, and the resulting solution. I'm not sure why you've chosen to focus on it.

 

It just happens, and it probably would have happened to us (if it didn't already) even if we didn't have the affair.

 

Which is true. People who don't have affairs have cars that break down. People get Lyme disease without entering into affairs. Things happen in life that are negative without it being the universe punishing you for an action deemed bad by... Well, I'm not sure who. Considering the universe isn't a being capable of evaluation of situations and choice in exacting punishment, it's not like the universe chooses to punish people.

 

And for every bad thing, I can think of just as many and more amazing things that happened, things that probably would have never happened if we weren't together.

 

We all agree that affairs change lives. To admit anything different, especially considering that we both divorced our spouses and married each other, would be a lie. The common thread for all BS spouses is that nothing is the same after the affair. The same holds true for the people who have the affairs as well. Pretending different is just that... Pretending. And it flies in the face of what we talk about with affairs.

 

Financially, we are both better off than we ever have been. And personally, we're both happier than we've ever been in our lives. We have a really, really good life.

 

This is also true. But it didn't just happen. It was not a case of "have an affair and everything is great." We had to go through a lot of negative to get there. We had a lot of growing up, resolving of issues, and mess cleanup as a result of the affair to get through first. We did not have an affair and then got rewarded with a happy life. We had an affair, we went through divorces, the feelings that come with affairs and divorces, the problems that come up with affairs and divorces, and we came out the other end. What we have now, after all that stuff we got through and all those battles fought and all that energy and work, but most of all time, is what we have now.

 

I can't emphasize the passage of time in these things enough. It's been almost 5 years. A lot changes in that window. With so much time gone by it would be a surprise how little such things matter when you make the choice to dust your self off and move on.

 

Or we could debate that during the divorce, his spouse and family did just as many "bad" things, so does that mean the karma train is coming to her too?

 

REWRITING HISTORY/GASLIGHTING ?

 

I was talking about behavior during the divorce not behavior before the affair or behavior in his former marriage. That is not rewriting history, it was me alluding to actions that she carried out that I knew of because I was the subject, victim, or bystander. There is not an issue of perspective here but concrete actions that were just things that people would term bad. Bad actions justified in the response to the divorce? That's where perspective comes in and the potential to "rewrite history." Seeing as I didn't do that, however, just mentioned that "bad" things occurred, even leaving bad in quotes to emphasize the possibility that there is room to interpretation as to if they were truly bad and not a response to circumstances, I don't see that I rewrote history anywhere.

 

Gaslighting here is totally misapplied. See, to gaslight has its roots in an old stage play and very famous classic movie "Gaslight", and it means that you're actively trying to make a sane person feel insane to cover up your own misdeeds. It's the manipulation of somebody's state of being. I'm not presenting here information to make her feel like she's crazy in what she sees around her. I'm sharing that she engaged in behaviors that could be defined as "bad." If you were to ask you if these actions occurred she'd certainly state they did. If anything, upon just thinking over the events I alluded to but didn't describe, there are incidents could be an example of gas lighting me, not me gas lighting her.

 

Pretty self-serving don't you think ...

 

Well, we are supposed to recount our experiences and not speak for everybody so by default any sharing of experiences to arrive at conclusions... Yes, it's going to be self-serving to a degree. Especially when the above cherry picked, context removed quotes are considered as what they are, pieces of a discussion to another poster who asked for elaboration on my thoughts in relation to my situation.

 

I am not saying that I am correct in any of the above conclusions, but you did ask where I got the idea of being rewarded for cheating etc.

 

If you're going to accuse somebody of something, it would seem odd you'd do so with an untold expectation you could be wrong... I don't generally go around accusing people of things while saying to myself "but hey, I could be wrong."

 

But, regardless, as you can see, I think we can safely arrive at the conclusion that you were mistaken and perhaps projecting a little. Which is fine, I know emotions run high for some here and it's hard to separate the personal experience of the self when you've feel like you've been wronged from the personal experience of another who you define as the type who is similar to the one who wronged you. So no worries.

[Anne Boleyn]

Yes Tara, yes! If she in fact got the STI due to her transgressions, then yes, she has to live with that for the rest of her life. I don't care what you call it, she did it to herself. That's the consequence that she got when she chose to stray.

 

So if cheating and getting a STD/STI is karma, if that person slept with their spouse and gave it to them, could we assume that the BS who's now infected did something that the universe saw to their punishment over? Logically, if contracting an STD/STI through in affair is "instant karma," passing of the same STD/STI to the BS must be "instant karma" for the BS too. So then would the act, the affair, also be instant karma to the BS as well?

 

Just as... those who cheat and leave their spouse for their OW/OM will have to live with the fact that their relationship caused a great deal of pain for other(s) and started with a LIE. No matter how long they stay together after the fact, it still started with a LIE and it HURT others. Ignoring it and pretending that life is in fact good despite the choices made that hurt others doesn't change the fact that they did in fact deliberately hurt others.

 

Since this is a not-so-subtle dig at me, I guess I can answer it.

 

Yes, part of divorcing our spouses and choosing to be together meant that we had to reconcile, repair, and untangle a lot. It was hard, and it was a hard created soley because of our choice to have an affair. While some of it would have existed or happened if we'd gotten a divorce without knowing each other or having an affair, even an emotional affair, allowing us to have the natural relationship progression to marriage, a lot of complications and problems that came up were because of the affair.

 

But that doesn't mean that after the dust has settled that there is a degree of "pretending" that life is good. Like I said, with the passing of time, the whole mess of it means less and less. 4-5 years on, you'd be surprised about how absolutely little it matters, even to the people who reacted badly at the onset or at the beginning. People who said they'd never accept us, we'd never be OK, etc etc. Because at some point, everybody moves on. First the people who were observers or passive participants, then eventually the people involved.

 

Think of it... I'm sure that in your past you have a heart somewhere that you broke. A person you did dirt to. A person who said they'd never be OK ever again because of something you did. A relationship you ended with a partner who didn't want it to end. Somebody who can point at you as being the sole cause to their heartbreak, pain, and misery. Does that mean that anytime you're happy afterwards, that it's a lie? You're pretending? No, I'm sure it doesn't. You go on, you move on, and you have a good experience, a good life, and general happiness. Sure, it may hurt to know you hurt somebody for a time, you may grieve causing that hurt, you may struggle in the knowledge that you did those things for a time... But eventually, you move on. You forgive yourself, you get forgiven, you understand yourself or the situation, and then you just... Keep going with your life.

 

And I know it's hard to understand. 5 or 6 years ago, when everything was going on, I'd never have believed there was a time where it didn't matter anymore or circumstances where it's not the center of your life and every waking moment. But there is eventually that time where it matters less and less, then finally, doesn't matter at all.

 

To quote Don Draper: "Get out of here and move forward. This never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened."

[janedoe67]

That doesn't make them awful people.

It makes what they did, awful.

But it doesn't define them completely.

 

Gandhi was estranged from his son, and used to beat both his children when they were young boys.

Does that make him awful, now?

 

You see, if an action is unskilful, then we have to perceive and evaluate that action, not the person.

 

If someone does something foolish, it is better to say, 'that was a stupid thing to do' - but it doesn't make the person, stupid.

 

This is why it is dangerous to assume, presume or state that a consequence is the direct result of an Action.

 

her catching an STD is an accident, because the person who gave it to her, would not have told her that they had this STD.

So, we could say that being lied to was the consequence...

 

One cannot discern karma/Vipaka.

Because whatever we think, say or do, is our Karma.

And making presumptions/judgements about people, and their actions, without knowing them, is a Karmic thing for us.

 

There are several good thoughts in this post. And I did not know that about Ghandi.

 

I think sometimes the problem comes when we can't see the consequences. I was treated with rotten betrayal and disregard in a non-marital situation a few years back. Not near the pain of an A but it hurt and impacted my life big time. I didn't get to "have my say," I didn't get to "make them pay." As far as I know the parties involved felt nothing about how they blew up a part of my life, put my family's financial wellbeing in jeopardy, etc. And as far as I know they are doing just fine. I have to say it was TOUGH not to be able to really confront them OR see them feel a bit bad OR see them 'get theirs" in some way.

 

But I thought about it, and even if they don't feel it, they DO have consequences in their own way. They live inside the body of a human who can hurt someone without batting an eye. They walk around every day not caring who they hurt as long as they get their way. What a sad existence.

 

For me, when I cheated, I didn't get Aids. A bus has not hit me. My teeth have not all fallen out. I do not live in the age of Nathaniel Hawthorne (well at least not literally) so I don't have to wear a big A to Target or Costco. But there are consequences. Emotional, mental, even physical. The scars are there every day, and no matter how sorry I am or how much work I do or how much I wasn't that person before the mid 2000's and how much I have changed, I will always be, at least to some degree, "that bad woman who cheated." My kids will always know that, among the good things I might have done as a mom, I am also the mom who cheated on their dad.

 

I don't know what term you use to name it, but to anyone with a conscience, there ARE consequences to cheating.

[Anne Boleyn]

That's the part about all of this that is very difficult to deal with. Yes, cheaters cheat and yes they hurt the people around them. Are we then to just ignore the fact that they cheated and say "oh but so and so is still a nice person?". They have "changed" and now aren't this awful person who lied and broke their promises? I don't get it.

 

A bad act doesn't make somebody a bad person any more than a good act makes a person a good person. We are more than the sum of one of our actions.

[Anne Boleyn]

Lets agree to disagree on a few things here as it is off topic. I am not a buff by any means but do have access to quite a network of authorities on this subject and actually started out like you, quite liking Anne Boleyn (from Anne of a 1000 days). However lets just say that when the Greeks and Romans came up with the idea of Europa and proceeded to assemble nations from warring tribes in Helvetica, Caledonia, Germania and Espana among other regions, their ideas of morality, law and structure for a ruling body for these nations were far removed from the behaviour of King Hal 8 AND his daughter, Lizzie the first. Elizabeth the First did not necessarily come from the best gene stock and there were other families around that would have provided far more nobler bloodlines.

 

Every country migrates far from it's origins... That's not the fault of one historical figure in it, that's just how things move on.

[TaraMaiden]

Karma is actually a simple concept to explain but an extremely difficult one to grasp.

 

Part of the problem, with regard specifically, to 'Western' thinking, is that for the most part, we have to a greater or lesser extent, been brought up to recognise and accept the concept of 'sin', 'good and bad' and 'punishment and reward'.

 

Insofar as Buddhist thinking goes, Punishment and reward need not necessarily be two sides of the same coin, 'Good and bad' is a relative perception, and 'sin' is not recognised as a fixed factor.

 

That's for a first thing.

 

Secondly, to get into the depths of discussion about Karma, the ins and outs of it, are actually unfathomable.

Some 'schools of thought' prescribe to the notion of 'collective karma' - that is, the Actions of a family, a neighbourhood, an organisation, a city or a country.

 

For example, Did Hiroshima deserve the Atomic Bomb?

Did so many jews deserve to be exterminated?

Is germany now reaping the consequences of that Karma?

Doesn't look like it, does it?

 

These kinds of discussions open up all manner and kinds of cans of worms - and that's all they can be - Discussions.

because quite simply put - We - Don't - Know.

 

The Buddha himself counted the Law and workings of Karma as 'Unconjecturable'. (See linked thread in my signature. The post contains that reference.)

 

Remember, the Actions must be intentional, volitional, deliberate.

 

if we do something, and the consequence is that, unbeknown to us, our actions have offended someone, that Karmic Action is not loaded against us....

 

But Karma is basically everything we DECIDE to think/say/do.

 

And it all counts.

It all gets noted in our own personal mental notebook.

 

It's for us to consider and evaluate.

 

So, how exactly do we deal with this process, the "is-ness" of Karma?

 

The answer is simple.

 

We Pay Attention.

 

to what, exactly?

 

To ourselves.

To how Mindful we are.

To how 'skilful our Actions are, be they Mental, Oral or Physical.

 

It has been said - Actions speak louder than words - but we also know, though experience, that words can cut though our hearts like a blade through butter.

 

So we have to Pay Attention - constant attention.

We have to be Mindful - constantly Mindful.

We have to exercise Skill - Constantly.

 

It's the only way we can prevent ourselves from screwing up.

[Raena]

A bad act doesn't make somebody a bad person any more than a good act makes a person a good person. We are more than the sum of one of our actions.

 

The definition of a bad person is "one who does harm to others".

 

So yes, a bad act... that harms another person... does in fact make that person a "bad person"

 

Cheating is bad... it hurts others, harms them. You can sugar coat it all you want and write 16 page long doctoral thesis statements complete with citations and a reference page on it all you want... it doesn't change the fact that you cheated. Here you are, 5-6 years later, still explaining yourself.

 

I'm just saying. I'm not going to fill a whole page responding to you. You obviously took what I said very personally. As you should. There is no explaining away what you did. Your life since then might be full of the normal ups and downs of any other persons life, but at one point YOU were the reason someone else was hurt. Yeah, maybe it seems that those others have moved on and it means nothing now but that doesn't mean a darn thing. It just means that those others have decided that hating you and hanging onto a grudge wasn't worth it for them. At some point, we all have to let go of the people who hurt us. It doesn't mean it was EVER ok that they did what they did.

 

Look, I don't condemn you... YOU aren't the one who hurt ME, but I'd be hard pressed to say that 5 years from now I'd think nice sweet thoughts about the girl who spread her legs for my man and connived him into leaving me... or to ever forget what HE did to me in the process either. I might let it go, I might wish him well... but that isn't for him... it's for ME.

[peruano99]

Wait... your SO cheated and got an incurable STI from it? Well, that is certainly (instant) karma right there!

 

Hopefully you managed to steer clear of getting the same STI!

 

She continued to be promiscuous after I let her go. I tried to warn her to be careful, but she didn't listen.

Edited January 27, 2014 by peruano99

[Raena]

She continued to be promiscuous after I let her go. I tried to warn her to be careful, but she didn't listen.

 

Well that stinks for her. Guess she should have been more careful with who she chose to bed. Just be thankful she didn't give it to you.

[Furious]

I use the word karma because i don't know what other word to use but did a cheating ex ever get what was coming to them?

 

 

Hinduism and Buddhism differentiate in their interpretation of Karma and it can be confusing as to defining "Karma". In Christianity, Karma may be expressed as "reap what you sow".

 

I don't prescribe to the concept of Karma as a punishment that is of a higher judge or power that serves up bad things to happen for bad actions.

 

In my opinion karma is a personal journey and it's about learning and growing from within. I don't believe it's true meaning is about handing out punishment from some higher power.

 

Sometimes good things happen to lousy people and bad things happen to some good people. Overall, good things and bad things happen to all people throughout their lifetime.

[Anne Boleyn]

The definition of a bad person is "one who does harm to others".

 

So yes, a bad act... that harms another person... does in fact make that person a "bad person"

 

So if all it takes to make somebody a bad person is one act, or doing something that breaks somebody's heart or hurts their feelings, then we all must be bad people. Everybody has hurt somebody at some point in their life.

 

is bad... it hurts others, harms them. You can sugar coat it all you want and write 16 page long doctoral thesis statements complete with citations and a reference page on it all you want... it doesn't change the fact that you cheated. Here you are, 5-6 years later, still explaining yourself.

Yes... Explaining myself on a thread about the subject... After I've been asked to explain myself... This is not unusual, but rather the point of such discussions... No?

 

In my daily life, in the real world, outside of this forum, do I offer such explanations? No, I don't. It never comes up because in the grand scheme of life, especially after so much time... Simply, almost nobody cares.

 

I think the issue here is that people believe the world focuses on an affair for the rest of forever, that it's all consuming, and to hear that, at some point, it's really not... It makes people angry. They want to believe it's the center of your life forever, it defines you, and it becomes who you are. But like one good deed doesn't make a Saint, one bad one doesn't make a devil. It may mean people don't like you and that is their choice, but a person who's so bad the universe attacks them for the rest of their life? No. Like I said, I think this is more just disappointment to hear that life is not misery and punishment where those who've cheated are perpetually miserable. Just as his ex's coping technique is to believe we're miserable... She'd rather believe we are then know we aren't. Which is fine. It really doesn't matter.

 

I'm just saying. I'm not going to fill a whole page responding to you. You obviously took what I said very personally. As you should. There is no explaining away what you did.

How can I take what was said personally? I do not know you, you do not know me. Your opinions of me are formed off of the very general knowledge of one thing I did, a thing I admitted to doing, and that's about it. You do not know the specifics, just a vague outline of the general situation. So how can I take any conclusion you reach on your own and then try to scold me for personally?

 

The truth is, you can believe what you want about me, it's fine. It has no real tangible impact on me, my family, or my situation. I realize assumptions are drawn based off of stereotypes, projection, and emotions related possibly to your experiences... That's ok. It's part of your process to work through everything, and I realize this and I'm ok with it. All the more reason I don't view somebody on the internet who doesn't know me from Adam who has decided that I'm bad based off me saying openly I had an affair as something personal. If chastising me makes you feel better, have at it. But it doesn't mean I am taking what is being said personally.

 

Your life since then might be full of the normal ups and downs of any other persons life, but at one point YOU were the reason someone else was hurt.

As all of us have hurt people at some point. In this, I'm not special or unique. Truth be told, I've broken up with people who didn't want to be broken up with and left them hurt, had friendships fall out where there was mutual hurt, I have been dumped when I didn't want to be dumped... In relationships, people getting hurt by the specific actions of others... It's not fun, but it happens.

 

Yeah, maybe it seems that those others have moved on and it means nothing now but that doesn't mean a darn thing. It just means that those others have decided that hating you and hanging onto a grudge wasn't worth it for them.

This is where knowing more than just the generalities of the situation would be beneficial to you in your rebuking me... Some forgave because they didn't know the whole story and then they did, some forgave because they had equally bad behavior, some forgave because they just didn't care in the first place. Others didn't forgive at all, again, for various reasons. None of those people's lack of forgiveness and continued dislike matters in the day-to-day that much.

 

At some point, we all have to let go of the people who hurt us. It doesn't mean it was EVER ok that they did what they did.

This is why I take none of what's being said personally. I realize we're not talking about me and my situation so much as we are talking about you and yours. And that's ok.

 

 

, I don't condemn you...

Clearly...

 

YOU aren't the one who hurt ME, but I'd be hard pressed to say that 5 years from now I'd think nice sweet thoughts about the girl who spread her legs for my man and connived him into leaving me... or to ever forget what HE did to me in the process either. I might let it go, I might wish him well... but that isn't for him... it's for ME.

Again, it's plain to see that this isn't about me, this is about your situation. Which is OK, I understand. But when you hit the half a decade mark, let me know. As I said, you'd be surprised at how little it matters after a relatively small amount of time. Sweet thoughts towards those involved, no... But like I said, you'll be surprised how little it will matter or you'll care. There is a livable medium between "everything is you're fault and you're a bad person" and "let's be best friends.". That spot is where you eventually end up.

 

 

And I get the rawness of it, and the emotion. I don't know your specifics, and I don't need to, but I can see our situation is a tad different... My situation wasn't one where I "spread my legs" and "connived" him into leaving his wife any more than it was his flipping out his member and conniving him to leave mine. I understand yours was, which is why I understand this isn't so much about me and his ex wife as it is about you and her.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Anne Boleyn

[waterwoman]

I never wished any real ill on OW even when I was at my most angry. But I did silently hope for a mild case of acne or a bit of extra avoir du poid.

 

I spent the evening with a good friend of mine last night. She knows OW and her family. She told me that she saw OW a few weeks back and she has put on about 3 stone in weight. I confess to giving a little cheer. I am happy to accept that is it schadenfreude, and very petty of me, and I am suitably ashamed of myself (but not very).

 

Clearly someone was listening. As I don't beleive in god I guess it must down to the Bad Fairy of Petty Revenges.

[TaraMaiden]

As an aside, I love that the OP posted the first post - and hasn't been back since....

 

A 'blue touch-paper' post.....!

[peruano99]

You know I also would like to add something my father did to my mom. He cheated on my mom with a younger girl a couple of years ago. During that time, he was also very physically abusive with her, he hit her in front of me when I was a kid. Many years pass, and the girlfriend for which my dad cheated on my mom with, got pregnant with another man. He was devastated, called my mom and apologized for hurting her in the past.

 

I say my dad got his payback.