Question for OW and MM who turned A into relationship

[headstillspinning]

My MM and I have been in our A for 9 months (PA started 7 months ago). He has been married for 17 years and has two kids. We have also worked together for the last 8 years, which adds another layer of complexity.

 

I am single and have tried many times to end our A, but still it continues. For the first 8 months of A, I never put any pressure on him to leave his W. In fact, I was always under the impression that he wouldn't ever leave her until he came to me on a few different occasions saying some of the following:

 

- Not a day goes by where I don't wish I could have a do-over in life.

- If I wasn't married, I believe unequivocally that we are meant to be together.

- I've never felt this way about anyone before or experienced the things I have with you.

- I think all the time about how I get to a place where we can be together.

 

When he would tell me these things, I'd respond by saying let's not talk about "what ifs" and "maybes" and to come to me when he was actually ready to have a conversation.

 

I tried to end our A again 3 weeks ago saying I need to move on to live my life. He came back to me saying he had been doing lots of thinking and wanted to meet privately to talk. I told him I didn't want to have the same conversation again. He assured me this time it was different. I met with him, and he apologized. He told me he was convinced he was coming to give me a timeline and tell me to wait for him, but then he looked at his kids and doesn't see how this is possible right now....and then he dropped the bomb. "I'm in love with you" he said.

 

So, for the last 3 weeks I feel like I've been acting like a crazy person. All it took was for him to utter those three words to have my head completey spinning. How can you say you're in love with ME and stay with HER I keep saying to myself. I told him he needs to make a decision (something I've never done before). His response, "ok, I choose you...now what happens in a month when I hate you and resent everything you stand for. I don't want to doom us. I'm not ready. If we were going to end up together, you must have known there would be some sacrafice and waiting involved."

 

It seems like when I didn't put any pressure on him and was being supportive and patient, he came to many decisions on his own in his own time. I really do love him, and he says he loves me. I know many men use the kids as an excuse, but I really do believe that's what keeps him there. So my question is for OW or MM who did actually go on to have a real relationship, what approach was taken? Is it fair to set a 6 month time frame in my own mind and if he still doesn't have clarity, move on? I don't want to pressure him as I know this is a big decision. It sounds like he was moving towards being with me, and I don't want to do anymore damage. We've had quite a few arguments over the last couple weeks. I should also mention that he has been to IC and told me by the end of this year, he is determined to either 1. leave or 2. Try to work on his marriage.

 

Any advice is appreciated.

Edited January 17, 2014 by headstillspinning

[carhill]

fMM here....

 

Men who desire a goal move the earth to reach it and have a plan to do so. Any man who is successful enough to propagate a 17 year marriage and family did not get there by waffling and indecision. He knew what he wanted and went after it.

 

If I were in your position, and I was many years ago as a single OM, I'd continue to date single men and leave MM to his timeline. If he has a plan and works the plan and the plan includes you, and the timing matches up, then you and he may have a future together. That last thing I mentioned, timing, is as important in A situations as it is in establishing any intimate relationship. If the timing works out, it does; if not, not. If he is attempting to skew timing by keeping you involved to your own detriment (you decide this, not him), then the timing is not balanced and equitable.

 

Think about this....if he was dating you and another lady and wasn't progressing your relationship, how would you feel? Sure, it's easy to put labels on married people but they're people first and married second.

 

People who are married and want to be with a different partner make moves to be with that partner. Decisively. I've seen it for decades and did it myself as a MM. That partnership, which happened to be with the fMW from years ago, didn't work out (happens!) but the process was indicative of moving on. Clear and unambiguous.

 

Good luck.

[headstillspinning]

fMM here....

 

Men who desire a goal move the earth to reach it and have a plan to do so. Any man who is successful enough to propagate a 17 year marriage and family did not get there by waffling and indecision. He knew what he wanted and went after it.

 

If I were in your position, and I was many years ago as a single OM, I'd continue to date single men and leave MM to his timeline. If he has a plan and works the plan and the plan includes you, and the timing matches up, then you and he may have a future together. That last thing I mentioned, timing, is as important in A situations as it is in establishing any intimate relationship. If the timing works out, it does; if not, not. If he is attempting to skew timing by keeping you involved to your own detriment (you decide this, not him), then the timing is not balanced and equitable.

 

Think about this....if he was dating you and another lady and wasn't progressing your relationship, how would you feel? Sure, it's easy to put labels on married people but they're people first and married second.

 

People who are married and want to be with a different partner make moves to be with that partner. Decisively. I've seen it for decades and did it myself as a MM. That partnership, which happened to be with the fMW from years ago, didn't work out (happens!) but the process was indicative of moving on. Clear and unambiguous.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks for your response. I like your opening statement about men who desire something will move the earth and put a plan in action to attain it. This is a very bold statement. I believe MM is still trying to figure out his plan (leave or stay). He is very conflicted on many levels because of the kids.

 

Are you suggesting I end the A and date single men and leave MM to figure out his life? I have tried to end the A several times and each time we find ourselves right back in it. What did it take for you to want to leave your M to be with OW?

[whichwayisup]

This isn't just about the kids, it's 17 years of marriage plus a long history with his wife, their family, in laws, friends, neighbours, the life they live together.

 

If he hasn't given any indication of divorcing (meaning he was miserable and about to divorce before you came into his life, before the A) then the chances of him actually leaving and divorcing is really slim to none. It seems he'd be leaving his wife and kids for you, not because he'd rather be alone and divorced regardless if you were in the picture or not. This is what many WS's go through and many of times they don't leave.

 

Has he even spoken to his wife? Told her he's unhappy and doesn't want stay married to her?

 

For your own sanity put a timeline on this otherwise you'll be waiting 2 years or more.

[whichwayisup]

Are you suggesting I end the A and date single men and leave MM to figure out his life? I have tried to end the A several times and each time we find ourselves right back in it. What did it take for you to want to leave your M to be with OW?

 

I would distance yourself from him, detach a bit and no more sex. Keep the lines of communication open but on a friendly basis, not an affair basis.

 

Could you picture yourself dating someone else while he figures out if he wants to stay or divorce? if anything that's just going to add more angst into your own life so why bother. Live your life - be with friends and family, put yourself first and keep the door open when it comes to him as long as he is putting a plan together and there's an actual action, not just words and he isn't just saying it and continuing to 'live life' with his wife and family.

 

Suggest he seek counseling too to help him with the process of divorcing.

 

Most of all, don't bash his wife because some day you might be their kids step mom, so please just have some sympathy and respect for her. She's always going to be in your lives because of the kids.

[Speakingofwhich]

I don't want to pressure him as I know this is a big decision. It sounds like he was moving towards being with me, and I don't want to do anymore damage. We've had quite a few arguments over the last couple weeks. I should also mention that he has been to IC and told me by the end of this year, he is determined to either 1. leave or 2. Try to work on his marriage.

 

Any advice is appreciated.

 

imho your big advantage is that he is in IC. Good for him!

 

Do you know why he began IC?

[headstillspinning]

I would distance yourself from him, detach a bit and no more sex. Keep the lines of communication open but on a friendly basis, not an affair basis.

 

Could you picture yourself dating someone else while he figures out if he wants to stay or divorce? if anything that's just going to add more angst into your own life so why bother. Live your life - be with friends and family, put yourself first and keep the door open when it comes to him as long as he is putting a plan together and there's an actual action, not just words and he isn't just saying it and continuing to 'live life' with his wife and family.

 

Suggest he seek counseling too to help him with the process of divorcing.

 

Most of all, don't bash his wife because some day you might be their kids step mom, so please just have some sympathy and respect for her. She's always going to be in your lives because of the kids.

 

I would never bash his wife, after all he married her and he wouldn't marry someone who isn't a great person. He has told me she is a great mother and caretaker, but he isn't in love with her. They are roommates/friends. Two people who co-exist to raise their children in the same house. They don't fight or argue; there just isn't any romantic relationship anymore. It's been this way for 5 years. I am his first and only A.

 

In terms of what you said about his reasons for leaving, he has told me that he would have endured his unhappy situation in the long term for the children, but I have opened up his eyes and he now sees that there is more to life than living in a loveless, dead marraige of convenience. His wife has done nothing wrong, they just grew apart. And yes, from what he tells me has spoken to her a number of times about how unhappy he is and according to him has even told her if it wasn't for the children, he would have left by now.

 

What would be the point of putting a timeline on things if I'm ending the A but keeping the friendship? In such a case, wouldn't the A be over and if things ever change on his side, he could let me know? Currently we have plans to go away for a night together at the end of the month. I don't want to be dramatic and end things again out of nowhere. I am really trying to get a handle on the situation.

 

I realize this is more than children and 20 years of history, family, friends, etc., but he tells me it's me or his kids and if he leaves he wants to be able to come to with a smile on his face knowing his relationship with his kids will be forever changed but he has accepted that and is ready for us. He isn't at this stage yet.

[ZMM]

I would distance yourself from him, detach a bit and no more sex. Keep the lines of communication open but on a friendly basis, not an affair basis.

 

Great advice. Exactly what my OW did. We still communicate, but it is now strictly platonic while I get my act together.

[headstillspinning]

imho your big advantage is that he is in IC. Good for him!

 

Do you know why he began IC?

 

He is very conflicted on many levels. He says he wonders daily if he and I are meant to be together. MM is a lawyer and highly intelligent. He is analytical to the point where he often thinks too much. I have talked to him about the "fog", and he tells me not to insult his intelligence. He says he knows how he feels and he won't buy into the "textbook" definitions of affairs.

 

All that being said, he started IC to try to gain clarity on what path to choose. However, he didn't like his original therapist so he is currently trying to find someone new. I hope he actually follows through and goes back to talk to someone.

[whichwayisup]

He and his wife haven't tried to reconnect or fix their marriage, so there's always a chance when he mentions the D and leaving her, she's going to make all sorts of efforts, plus he won't know how HE is going to feel until that time. Could shake him up enough to want to give things a real shot. People grow apart in a marriage but that doesn't mean the love is gone, just means that passion and intensity isn't there like used to be. Letting life get in the way, becoming bored, being like roommates all can be easily reversed.

 

Sorry I misread your posts then, didn't realize you were thinking of totally ending it. Honestly and this is just my 2 cents, for your own sake it's probably best to this way you're not caught up in whatever he decides. It would really be awful for you if he said he was divorcing, got the ball rolling and then changed his mind. At least this way not being around him, in the future IF he does divorce he can come find you and date you out in the open and in a proper way, away from the affair dynamic that's been built between you two.

[headstillspinning]

He and his wife haven't tried to reconnect or fix their marriage, so there's always a chance when he mentions the D and leaving her, she's going to make all sorts of efforts, plus he won't know how HE is going to feel until that time. Could shake him up enough to want to give things a real shot. People grow apart in a marriage but that doesn't mean the love is gone, just means that passion and intensity isn't there like used to be. Letting life get in the way, becoming bored, being like roommates all can be easily reversed.

 

I know his W is still in love with him and wants things to work out. She can't picture a day where the two of them would no longer be together. However, she was a big cause in creating their current situation. He has told her that aside from compassion and guilt, he is empty for her. He is completely emotionally and physically unavailable and he doesn't know if he can move past this. According to him, she hasn't made any effort to try to fix things since having this conversation over a month ago. I've suggested to him that they try MC but he maintains that there is nothing a third party is going to say that is going make him go "aha, yes that's the answer to all our problems".

 

I know you're right in ending it. It's just so hard. I am going to ride out the next couple weeks before making anymore declarations. The next time I tell him it's over, I need to really be able to follow through. Otherwise, I just keep making myself look like a fool.

[MissBee]

fMM here....

 

Men who desire a goal move the earth to reach it and have a plan to do so. Any man who is successful enough to propagate a 17 year marriage and family did not get there by waffling and indecision. He knew what he wanted and went after it.

 

If I were in your position, and I was many years ago as a single OM, I'd continue to date single men and leave MM to his timeline. If he has a plan and works the plan and the plan includes you, and the timing matches up, then you and he may have a future together. That last thing I mentioned, timing, is as important in A situations as it is in establishing any intimate relationship. If the timing works out, it does; if not, not. If he is attempting to skew timing by keeping you involved to your own detriment (you decide this, not him), then the timing is not balanced and equitable.

 

Think about this....if he was dating you and another lady and wasn't progressing your relationship, how would you feel? Sure, it's easy to put labels on married people but they're people first and married second.

 

People who are married and want to be with a different partner make moves to be with that partner. Decisively. I've seen it for decades and did it myself as a MM. That partnership, which happened to be with the fMW from years ago, didn't work out (happens!) but the process was indicative of moving on. Clear and unambiguous.

 

Good luck.

 

Pretty much!

 

More or less what my 2 cents would have been, so I'll just cosign.

[whichwayisup]

I know his W is still in love with him and wants things to work out. She can't picture a day where the two of them would no longer be together. However, she was a big cause in creating their current situation. He has told her that aside from compassion and guilt, he is empty for her. He is completely emotionally and physically unavailable and he doesn't know if he can move past this. According to him, she hasn't made any effort to try to fix things since having this conversation over a month ago. I've suggested to him that they try MC but he maintains that there is nothing a third party is going to say that is going make him go "aha, yes that's the answer to all our problems".

 

I know you're right in ending it. It's just so hard. I am going to ride out the next couple weeks before making anymore declarations. The next time I tell him it's over, I need to really be able to follow through. Otherwise, I just keep making myself look like a fool.

 

You only have his word on this, just because he told you this, doesn't mean it's true. Just saying that MOST who are told (what you bolded) is pretty harsh and would wake them up, hurt and want to put effort in. He isn't sure what he wants, but he doesn't want to try MC with his wife? Something sounds a little off here. If he doesn't want to try, doesn't feel there's any change that can happen, then he should just divorce. He is wrong , a MC CAN help, he's just scared to try because life will change. And yes, he is used to how life has become as he doesn't have to make any effort and he still gets to stay married. Hope this makes sense.

 

It could be, he's happy enough having an A with you and staying married. Keeps him happy and his needs all met, he gets to see his kids and be with them and have excitement and passion on the side. I say that with respect, not minimizing what you've shared with him, just giving you something else to think about.

[headstillspinning]

It could be, he's happy enough having an A with you and staying married. Keeps him happy and his needs all met, he gets to see his kids and be with them and have excitement and passion on the side. I say that with respect, not minimizing what you've shared with him, just giving you something else to think about.

 

Thank you.

[Got it]

He is very conflicted on many levels. He says he wonders daily if he and I are meant to be together. MM is a lawyer and highly intelligent. He is analytical to the point where he often thinks too much. I have talked to him about the "fog", and he tells me not to insult his intelligence. He says he knows how he feels and he won't buy into the "textbook" definitions of affairs.

 

All that being said, he started IC to try to gain clarity on what path to choose. However, he didn't like his original therapist so he is currently trying to find someone new. I hope he actually follows through and goes back to talk to someone.

 

Paralysis by analysis. Some people do it more than others.

 

At the end of the day he may want to, desire to, dream to, but can he walk the talk?

 

I am married to my MM. The only course of action, for me, was a timeline in place with an understanding of the steps along the way and a place where I knew was my internal line in the sand.

 

I could not control his actions, and I did not underestimate the difficulty in leaving but as he was looking out for himself/his life to a degree I too needed to look at for me. So some people can be happy in the affair indefinitely. I knew I was only in it for him so it was not anything more than a short term band aid in my eyes.

 

I wanted all or nothing though was willing to do some level of compromising. But that was it. My life did not revolve around him and I knew while I love the man more than anyone else that I have ever met that did not mean I wouldn't love another. (I have loved two great men with little dating. So, in my eyes, my batting average is good so that I knew I wouldn't be destined to walk the Earth alone. And neither are you).

 

Figure out what your line in the sand is and work back from there. I know, and my husband did agree after he divorced, that I made staying in his marriage easier. He had everything he wanted without disrupting the kids.

 

Therapy for him is good but he needs to divorce because he wants to divorce and not because of you. So he needs to figure out if there is anything left to salvage in his marriage. If not, then end it. If a little kernel then see if it can grow.

 

The last thing you want is man wanting "what if" while he is with you.

[Quiet Storm]

I am not an OW, just a married mom (not a BS) that's been reading this board for years. I wanted to respond because I see so many red flags in your post.

 

The timing of the "I'm in love with you" is telling. He said that when you were ready to end. He knew he didn't have a plan or hasn't taken any steps to leave, but needed something to keep you there. He is playing on your sympathy, and you are thinking of him as a confused, conflicted man who loves his children, instead of the selfish person that he is. This doesn't mean that he doesn't genuinely love you, but his timing is suspicious.

 

Understand that the words "I'm in love with you" are not difficult to say. They are monumental to you, but they are just words. He is a capable liar & a cheater. He easily lies to the woman he promised his life to, and to the mother of his children on a daily basis. He has practice at stuffing that guilt down & ignoring his conscious. Pay attention to his actions, not his words. His words tell his wife he loves her, but his actions walk out the door & cheat on her. I know you feel that you are different because you are in love, but be careful. Most MM do not have OW's best interests at heart. Your interests are last, behind his, his wife's, his kids.

 

You have a common thought process of many OW- that when he says ILY, then that means he sees himself being with you. You think that if he loves you, it means that he doesn't love her, and this declaration means that he will take action.

 

In most women's minds, when you love someone, that means you want to be with them, make a life with them, etc. In the mind of a MM, though, he can be 100% in love with you and see your relationship as totally separate from the rest of his life. He can spend decades perfectly content with being in love with his OW and living with his wife. This is because when most men marry, they marry for life. Many men view divorce as a failure. Most MM are very committed to staying married- which is the whole reason for the affair. Affairs help MM to stay married because they don't have to face problems. Maybe his wife doesn't meet all his needs. Maybe the excitement is gone. Instead of concluding, "I didn't marry the right person & should separate" or "I will work to improve my marriage", MM seek outside help to meet those unmet needs. You may see this as a sign that he wants to replace his wife, but in most cases, MM just wants to supplement his marriage.

 

- Not a day goes by where I don't wish I could have a do-over in life.

- If I wasn't married, I believe unequivocally that we are meant to be together.

- I've never felt this way about anyone before or experienced the things I have with you.

- I think all the time about how I get to a place where we can be together.

 

 

You hear these things and they give you hope, but I see it very differently. The first sentence just says he wishes he would've done things differently (but he didn't). The key words in the second sentence is "if I wasn't married" (he is married). The third sentence is his feelings, but most MM don't change their lives over feelings. The fourth sentence is telling. Instead of saying "I will make this happen, we will be together, I will make an appt with an attorney" he says "I think all the time about how I can get to a place where we can be together." What does that even mean? He knows what he has to do, he just knows he's not going to be able to do it. Tranlation: "If I never got married, I'd want to marry you, but I am married. That sucks for us, but this is the way it is"

 

Most MM like being married and don't want to change it. They are very capable of genuinely loving an OW, and still wanting to be married to their wives. Sometimes this is very difficult for some OW to understand, because to them, the love equates to eventually being together, while to MM, the love equates to staying married & trying to keep OW in the affair forever.

 

You are correct in feeling that his concern for his kids is real. Most MM do know that divorce would hurt their kids, and it is valid reason not to divorce. It's not a lie, but it doesn't include the disclaimer "I already know I'm not divorcing". They make it seem like it is a such a conflict in their minds, that they are waivering back & forth & have this big dilemma. But the truth is most MM don't even consider divorce, they just want to supplement their marriage. But they can't tell the OW that, or she would move on.

 

Most MM's goal is not "how do I divorce?" it's "how can I prolong this affair for as long as possible?" I think most MM expect OW to get fed up eventually, they know they are giving her a bad deal. They just ride it out for as long as OW is willing to be OW, and when she gets tired, they will take a "step", such as saying ILY or throwing out some far away date, as a way to say "Look OW, I am serious." OW will feel reassured. She won't pressure MM because it ruins their time together. She'll accept the affair's limitations. She'll sacrifice what she deserves now, because she expects to be rewarded later. This is not good, as it sets up a dynamic where you are not supposed to have expectations. You don't want to be in a constant limbo of waiting, being disappointed, getting reassured, waiting, disappointment, reassurance over & over again.

 

"ok, I choose you...now what happens in a month when I hate you and resent everything you stand for. I don't want to doom us. I'm not ready. If we were going to end up together, you must have known there would be some sacrafice and waiting involved."

 

 

These words to you are really saying "Stop putting expectations on me! You are supposed to be my fun, my escape, my indulgence. Don't ruin this for me by expecting anything! I love you, but this love can turn to hate real quick. Know your role."

 

Do you really want to be with a man that will hate you for having expectations? All you want is for him to back up his words with actions. All you want is for him to be accountable to what he has said to you. But when you try to enforce any accountability or the love he has for you, you are in danger of "hate or resentment". Do you see how messed up this is? He says he loves you, but only if you behave yourself & don't expect anything. This statement shows how manipulative he really is. It's a veiled threat.

 

I don't see a lot of hope for your affair turning into a relationship. As another poster said, most MM who leave were already going to divorce anyway. The divorce isn't prompted by the connection with OW, or the depth of the love- because most MM who love OW are happy to stay married & have an affair for as long OW lets them.

 

I don't know how old you are, or if you want to eventually have kids. If you are young and want kids, please do not waste years on MM. If you want to wait six months & see what steps he has taken, I understand that. But remember that as long as you are putting emotional energy into MM, you won't be looking for the guy that can give you what you truly deserve. The longer this goes on, the more it wears you down. There have been OW on here that were confident, outgoing, compassionate, open hearted women, and by the end they are broken, isolated, jaded & in serious emotional pain. Something like this can take a huge toll on your emotional health.

 

MM is not compatible with you because he is married. It is easy to forget that because from your perspective, it is just the two of in a loving relationship. You are in the midst of love, feelings, connection, etc. His wife is nonexistent in the bubble of your affair. That isn't reality, though, as much as he wants you to think that. He is married, he has a wife, he has a whole other life.

 

I know you will read this and still hope that your situation is different, maybe he means what he says, etc. I just hope that something I said might resonate & help you notice his "stalling tactics" next time he does it. Read between the lines. Don't let him use his "feelings" for you as a dangling carrot. Tell him "This relationship won't be sustained on feelings & words alone." It takes no effort at all to say the words he has said. What takes effort is telling his wife, seeing a lawyer, preparing his kids, getting his own place, etc. If he is only willing to do the easy stuff (words, texts, hookups) but not the hard stuff, you'll know he is just stringing you along. Don't get caught in the trap of thinking "We are in love, this is meant to be". So many MM do feel love for OW, but that love is not enough for them to change their life. In most cases, it often comes down to OW having to make a choice: Move on so that her heart can heal, or accept the role as the OW.

[whichwayisup]

Figure out what your line in the sand is and work back from there. I know, and my husband did agree after he divorced, that I made staying in his marriage easier. He had everything he wanted without disrupting the kids.

 

Therapy for him is good but he needs to divorce because he wants to divorce and not because of you. So he needs to figure out if there is anything left to salvage in his marriage. If not, then end it. If a little kernel then see if it can grow.

 

The last thing you want is man wanting "what if" while he is with you.

 

This great advice stands for all.

 

I'll add, if he divorces, he should be okay on his own too, regardless if there is someone on the side or not..That he'd rather be on his own than stay married to his wife.