A Wife's Sexual History

[oldshirt]

 

What I was really looking for was some healing explanation of how committed guys deal with being losers at this juvenile game.

 

 

 

.

 

Losers??????

 

 

 

This is your biggest issue here IMHO. For some reason you see guys that want to be with a woman and want to build a life with her as weak and as a bad thing.

 

That is very flawed thinking. Not every guy wants to run around screwing every woman out there.

 

Guys that meet, develop a relationship and build a home and family with the woman they love and who loves them back are the winners in the world.

 

Lay off the PUA stuff. It's warping your sense of reality.

[MBrewey]

Wrap quotes around the term "Losers" oldshirt. And don't get too caught up with the alpha/beta terminology. There is certainly a common world view where married guys are the ultimate losers. It is not a bad idea to be able to rationally explain why that isn't true.

 

A bunch of the stuff you are saying makes sense to me though.

 

And I'll put down the PUA stuff. Just don't cane me.

Edited January 22, 2014 by MBrewey

[rosedl]

Her past before she met you has nothing to do with you.

 

If you love her and she demonstrates character in the relationship with you, and you trust her, it is moot. If there are other issues besides her past, look at those. If not, stop sabotaging your self and your relationship by focusing on things that are over.

 

There is a huge double standard that remains in our society about men's sexual exploits versus women's sexual exploits. You might want to examine your thoughts around this issue since it seems you are harboring a double standard.

[pteromom]

I think these guy's can handle a little bit of name calling though, especially when they are getting out of hand.

 

Oh sure. They can handle it, no problem.

 

But - you aren't being your best when you are name-calling. You have to hold yourself to a higher standard than that.

 

Naaaaahhhh, I don't buy that stuff about many different kinds of people and the bedpost notching and all that stuff, though. It seems to me that mostly people are fooling themselves ( I, of course, admit a guy can eventually settle down and behave after a while. Empirically that is undeniable ). I think it is a testament to how nice and accepting you are to say such a thing though. We can agree to disagree on that, maybe save it for a different thread.

 

Some people are fooling themselves, but I've known guys who were quite happy being lifelong playboys too. Whether you agree or not though, my point still applies - to worry less about what other people are doing, and more about taking care of your own sh*t.

 

Make yourself happy. Changing society is an exercise in futility.

[oldshirt]

There is certainly a common world view where married guys are the ultimate losers. I

 

It's a common world view for the misogynist and wannabes in the online Manosphere, I can't say that I've encountered it at all in the real world of flesh and blood humans however.

 

If men viewed themselves and others as "losers" for getting married, then there likely wouldnt be people getting married in the world.

 

I think you need to try to understand that men get down on on knee and propose because they want to marry the lady in question and they believe that their lives will be improved by making that union. I truly hope not a single man has ever proposed marriage because they feel they have somehow "lost" and now they are paying their war retributions by marrying.

 

I have read alot of PUA material over the years. Some has some merit. Some due a fairly good job of explaining what traits and characteristics women find attractive so guys can develop those traits a little better ( ie grooming and dressing better, not being afraid to approach and express yourself, not being a jerk etc) however most of it is misogynistic evo-dribble preying on socially awkward teenage insecurities to make money.

 

I have personally known some lifelong career playa's and I myself have been with multiple scores of women and not once have I ever looked down on a guy that has married one of my lady friends nor have I ever heard any of the guys that have chosen not to marry say anything bad about husbands or ever got the sense they felt superior.

 

It's only in the misogynistic blogosphere that you will hear married/committed men as the losers.

[oldshirt]

BUT here is my concern......

 

This gal may not be the right one for you. While I personally think it is wrong to judge someone purely on the fact that you weren't their first and only love. And I think it is downright psycho that some guys want to screw as many chicks as they can but view women who have had sex as lesser beings, I still have to concede that you may not be able to get past this and you may not be able to view her with the respect and dignity that you need and that she deserves.

 

 

In other words I think it is wrong of you and more of a testament of your insecurity and immaturity to look down on her and not view her as legitimate wife material even though she treats you well.

 

But if the knowledge that someone else has been with her before so erodes not only your respect for her but your own respect for yourself, then this may not work. If her being with other guys before you even met makes you feel emasculated and like a loser chump getting stuck with others leftover trash, then you will not be the loving, respectful husband that she deserves or that you want to be.

 

Don't misunderstand me, if that's how it is, I'll think you are the one with the problem and issues, but your disgust will make it her problem too in how you view and treat her.

 

If virginity or at least an extremely low lover count is that critical to you that you can't love someone with your whole heart, then you need to let her go and you need to find someone you can love,respect and admire.

[MBrewey]

Her past before she met you has nothing to do with you.

 

If you love her and she demonstrates character in the relationship with you, and you trust her, it is moot. If there are other issues besides her past, look at those. If not, stop sabotaging your self and your relationship by focusing on things that are over.

 

There is a huge double standard that remains in our society about men's sexual exploits versus women's sexual exploits. You might want to examine your thoughts around this issue since it seems you are harboring a double standard.

 

Yeah, that whole world view is just crazy as far as I'm concerned. There is way too little judging in society. You think I should not consider someone's history when getting married (financial, legal, sexual)? You just aren't going to sell me on that, and you don't have to. I'm not going to judge the value of anyone else's soul or anything. I'm sure Jesus and Buddha still love a person despite one's lifetime number of sexual partners. But I'm going to consider that before I put any time, emotion, money, and social standing into another person. Those big credit report companies do the same evaluation to you quite well. You do the same evaluation before buying a car.

 

I don't think sex has the same effect on men as on women, is that is a double standard? Depression rates and divorce rates are strongly positively correlated with the number of sexual partners a woman has. The same is not true for men. That is not a universal truth--just a trend. There are all sorts of different results, scientifically observable results, which occur in one sex but not other (e.g., getting pregnant). I think that sucks, and I don't want it to be true, but it is. That comes from the realm of what is, and not what should be. So now, do I think girls are less moral than men when having sex? Heck no, that would be terribly unfair and sexist.

 

What I have written about judging is pretty untherapeutic. It doesn't make me feel awesome to think about. It results from the fact that I am not a super man full of omniscience and omnipotence and the world is imperfect. If I pass on a girl, and I have, because of something about her past it does not make her a bad person. It also does not make me a bad person. It just means I am not going to risk investing a couple decades of my life into that person. That is wisdom.

[oldshirt]

Yeah, that whole world view is just crazy as far as I'm concerned. There is way too little judging in society. You think I should not consider someone's history when getting married (financial, legal, sexual)? You just aren't going to sell me on that, and you don't have to. I'm not going to judge the value of anyone else's soul or anything. I'm sure Jesus and Buddha still love a person despite one's lifetime number of sexual partners. But I'm going to consider that before I put any time, emotion, money, and social standing into another person. Those big credit report companies do the same evaluation to you quite well. You do the same evaluation before buying a car.

 

I don't think sex has the same effect on men as on women, is that is a double standard? Depression rates and divorce rates are strongly positively correlated with the number of sexual partners a woman has. The same is not true for men. That is not a universal truth--just a trend. There are all sorts of different results, scientifically observable results, which occur in one sex but not other (e.g., getting pregnant). I think that sucks, and I don't want it to be true, but it is. That comes from the realm of what is, and not what should be. So now, do I think girls are less moral than men when having sex? Heck no, that would be terribly unfair and sexist.

 

What I have written about judging is pretty untherapeutic. It doesn't make me feel awesome to think about. It results from the fact that I am not a super man full of omniscience and omnipotence and the world is imperfect. If I pass on a girl, and I have, because of something about her past it does not make her a bad person. It also does not make me a bad person. It just means I am not going to risk investing a couple decades of my life into that person. That is wisdom.

 

 

And my wisdom is to let this girl go and try to find one that you do feel confident in investing in.

 

When you are with the right one, you know it's the right one. You obviously don't feel that with her.

 

This particular chick it's her past. The next one might be her hair or her or her breath or her obnoxious laugh.

 

We all have deal breakers and prior sex is obviously one of yours.

 

My suggestion though is adopt a don't-ask/don't-tell policy and don't even ask for numbers or details of their prior sex life. Don't ask the questions if you can't handle the answers.

 

Don't tell them your history either. They won't like what they hear there either.

[janedoe67]

Yeah, that whole world view is just crazy as far as I'm concerned. There is way too little judging in society. You think I should not consider someone's history when getting married (financial, legal, sexual)? You just aren't going to sell me on that, and you don't have to. I'm not going to judge the value of anyone else's soul or anything. I'm sure Jesus and Buddha still love a person despite one's lifetime number of sexual partners. But I'm going to consider that before I put any time, emotion, money, and social standing into another person. Those big credit report companies do the same evaluation to you quite well. You do the same evaluation before buying a car.

 

I don't think sex has the same effect on men as on women, is that is a double standard? Depression rates and divorce rates are strongly positively correlated with the number of sexual partners a woman has. The same is not true for men. That is not a universal truth--just a trend. There are all sorts of different results, scientifically observable results, which occur in one sex but not other (e.g., getting pregnant). I think that sucks, and I don't want it to be true, but it is. That comes from the realm of what is, and not what should be. So now, do I think girls are less moral than men when having sex? Heck no, that would be terribly unfair and sexist.

 

What I have written about judging is pretty untherapeutic. It doesn't make me feel awesome to think about. It results from the fact that I am not a super man full of omniscience and omnipotence and the world is imperfect. If I pass on a girl, and I have, because of something about her past it does not make her a bad person. It also does not make me a bad person. It just means I am not going to risk investing a couple decades of my life into that person. That is wisdom.

 

Let her go so that SHE can find someone worthy. Seriously.

[MBrewey]

And my wisdom is to let this girl go and try to find one that you do feel confident in investing in.

 

When you are with the right one, you know it's the right one. You obviously don't feel that with her.

 

This particular chick it's her past. The next one might be her hair or her or her breath or her obnoxious laugh.

 

We all have deal breakers and prior sex is obviously one of yours.

 

My suggestion though is adopt a don't-ask/don't-tell policy and don't even ask for numbers or details of their prior sex life. Don't ask the questions if you can't handle the answers.

 

Don't tell them your history either. They won't like what they hear there either.

 

Just because something is imperfect does not mean it cannot be good. I do prize virginity, but there is more to a person than that, for sure. If a person prizes a fit body does that make them evil and only able to be with super models?

 

(1) Non-judgmentalism, (2) believing that anything imperfect must be bad, you are hitting all my pet peeves. You even displayed thinking that (3) because two things are imperfect that one cannot be better than another. Do you apply that to cultures too? All cultures are imperfect, so all cultures are equal? Do you apply it at work? When, I don't know, making two purchases you throw your hands up and say it is all the same?

 

Now you have made this little abstract addendum personal. I just couldn't tolerate all these abstract and therapeutic asides about how no one's past matters and it is so terrible to judge people. In concrete, of course, everyone must do those things to live. It is uncomfortable but necessary. So, I did feel compelled to mention that I am not like that. If you really live your life blind, great, I'm sure you have been just a huge success. I have the ability, however, to evaluate my life options and make a reasonable choice based on the evidence at hand.

[MBrewey]

Let her go so that SHE can find someone worthy. Seriously.

 

Be nice. Don't be so easily threatened by other views.

[oldshirt]

Just because something is imperfect does not mean it cannot be good. I do prize virginity, but there is more to a person than that, for sure. If a person prizes a fit body does that make them evil and only able to be with super models?

 

(1) Non-judgmentalism, (2) believing that anything imperfect must be bad, you are hitting all my pet peeves. You even displayed thinking that (3) because two things are imperfect that one cannot be better than another. Do you apply that to cultures too? All cultures are imperfect, so all cultures are equal? Do you apply it at work? When, I don't know, making two purchases you throw your hands up and say it is all the same?

 

Now you have made this little abstract addendum personal. I just couldn't tolerate all these abstract and therapeutic asides about how no one's past matters and it is so terrible to judge people. In concrete, of course, everyone must do those things to live. It is uncomfortable but necessary. So, I did feel compelled to mention that I am not like that. If you really live your life blind, great, I'm sure you have been just a huge success. I have the ability, however, to evaluate my life options and make a reasonable choice based on the evidence at hand.

 

So are you defending her and defending your relationship with her now?

[MBrewey]

What do you mean oldshirt?

 

I do think my relationship is good. I think we got off to a poor start. I think she had a rough period of low self-esteem but things didn't get crazy out of hand.

 

I think my story is pretty dang typical, people are just usually quiet about it. I wondered how most people deal with it, especially older people who have been married a while. I wondered if they just have to wear rose colored glasses permanently (not a bad device in a relationship), or if they could create some narrative capable of filling themselves with pride (my expectation), or if they all just had views alien to me like cuckoldry and ignorance (a common solution).

 

To bring it all full circle, I think a narrative of pride is certainly compatible with my world view--which has come into question these last few posts. It sucks that stuff happened in her past and that we got off to a start the way we did, but it is possible to still feel pride (see petromom's first post, your fourth and fifth posts, and philosoraptor's post).

 

Relationships are a tough gig and there is more pride to be taken in keeping a girl than attracting a girl. I'm sure there are plenty of married dudes that can expound on that.

 

I really didn't want to offend anyone with how I see sex differences and mate selection. I knew it would happen, but I don't completely mind.

Edited January 22, 2014 by MBrewey

[MBrewey]

Let her go so that SHE can find someone worthy. Seriously.

 

I am a serial cheater. And I hate it, but apparently not enough.

 

Figures.

 

..

[oldshirt]

What do you mean oldshirt?

 

I do think my relationship is good. I think we got off to a poor start.

 

 

 

I'm glad to hear you think it is good.

 

 

I guess I am not seeing why you think you got off to a poor start. Refresh our memories, how did it get off to a rough start again???

 

 

From what I read, you hit it off from the start and even though you went into it thinking it was going to be one-nighter, you liked her and wanted to see her again. How is that a rough start???? Two people were attracted to each other, had some fun and pleasure and continued to see each other and enjoyed each other's company? where's the rough start??

 

 

I'm going to play jr shrink here and try to psychoanalyze you a little bit here. You've had a long term image of yourself saving yourself for marriage and marrying a virgin. But you got disillusioned with that for some reason and did a 180 on your own moral compass and your own values and set out to have a one night hook up.

 

 

So basically you went against your own moral compass and your own values for the sexual experience.

 

 

so you go into said sexual experience with the plan of it being a pump-and-dump and you probably thought of the girl in low regard and as morally beneath you since she basically agreed to a one-nighter with you. (which in and of itself is kind of dysfunctional if you are going to look down on someone for wanting to have sex with you, but that's for another thread and another shrink's couch)

 

 

But during your time with this chick you enjoyed her company and enjoyed your time with her and you wanted to spend more time with her and came to like her and she came to like you.

 

 

BUT this went against your plans of using her for a pump and dump and you feel awkward and uncomfortable for developing feelings for someone that intentionally set out to look down on.

 

 

Not only that but you feel conflicted not only towards her but you feel a certain amount of disdain for the guys that were with her previously and you are wondering why they didn't like her and were willing to end things with her when you like her so much.

 

 

Also there's conflict inside you because now you've compromised your values of saving sex until marriage but now you've also compromised your value of banging one out with a woman you hold in low regard and for whom you intended to not develop feelings for but you developed feelings for her anyway.

 

 

This made you feel weak and not in control of your own feelings and not in charge of your own emotional destiny.

 

 

Hate to break it to you Dude but people don't get to pick and choose who they develop feelings for. If there is one saying in the Manosphere that does ring true it is - "attraction is not a choice." We don't get to choose who we are attracted to and click with, that is chosen for us by a higher power.

 

 

Your conflict is not with her and her sexual past so much as it is about your own values and your own insecurities. You are living in your own head too much.

 

 

The rest of us see this as a 'boy-meets-girl' story. You met a girl, got to each other, had some fun times and developed feelings for each other. That happens the whole world over every day and it is a good thing.

 

 

Try to ditch the baggage and enjoy it and appreciate it.

 

 

Yes she had some prior experiences with other guys before you came into the picture. They didn't hit it off. Either she wasn't into them or they didn't have the wisdom and insight to see in her what you do. their loss.

 

 

The Manosphere has conditioned you to think that you are picking up their trash. You may be picking up a golden nugget that they were too stupid to recognize as gold and just thought it was another rock.

[oldshirt]

 

 

. I think she had a rough period of low self-esteem but things didn't get crazy out of hand.

 

 

 

And I think we should call BS on this whole low self-esteem thing too.

 

 

Nothing you have said indicates she has any self-esteem issues. She had some encounters with men that didn't work out. Welcome to the human race. People have dead-ends and near misses and things that don't work out all the time. I'm sure a lot of people wish they could just bump into MR/MS Right right off the bat and live happily ever after but that simply isn't the real world.

 

 

She's going to tell you that they used her and manipulated her and that she was in a bad place and not thinking right because she can read on your face that you have an issue with it. she's going to make them out to be the bad guy and her out to be the victim. That's what chicks do.

 

 

It makes her feel better to say that the big bad man used her and took advantage of her compromised condition rather than saying she thought he was kind of cute and they hit it off momentarily but it didn't work out and that either his true colors came out and she didn't like him or there was something about her he didn't like and it simply didn't work out.

 

 

If you believe that she had a defective self-esteem then you have to believe that she was attracted to you because she was defective and for her to be defective to be attracted to you that means you must be defective.

 

 

so it all comes back to your own insecurity again. You have some baggage here for some reason and it is causing you to question not only yourself but question her motives as well.

 

 

You need to ditch the baggage and the insecurities and your self-esteem issues. Even if this relationship doesn't work out and you find someone else, if you carry this baggage with you, it will taint and poison your next relationship as well.

 

 

Her self-esteem is fine. it's your's that needs some work.

[thinkingofhim]

So alpha males can have sex with girls that aren't virgins, as long as they dump them, but if they marry a girl that was not a virgin they become a beta male and subservient to the alphas.

 

Oy, my head hurts. Are you part of a dog pack? Are your girlfriend's exes going to come back and pee on your fire hydrant? What in the world is this?

 

Normal humans usually have sex with more than one person before finding the right partner, it's not an earthshatteringly big deal. If you can't treat your girlfriend like a normal human woman and instead are worrying about how she's the omega of the dog pack or whatever, I suggest you break up and let her find a normal human man to marry.

[MBrewey]

Just got off the phone with my girlfriend. Things are very great. I can't wait to fly across the country to see her tomorrow.

 

I am gonna call up her dad and ask for permission to marry her in a week or so. I think some of you are not very at ease with my un-obvious rhetorical style or un-theraputic rationale, but I am at peace with that. I am also very accustomed to hearing contradictions to it pretty much everywhere I turn, except from her of course.

 

My girlfriend loves me and agrees with all the same stuff I believes about sex. She was going through a rough time. We both think it was wrong of us to start like that and wish things could have been different. We both think it is superior to have fewer sexual partners than more. On the phone just now, we could tease each other about it and make fun of ourselves for it (A very good sign according to the Gottman institute). It's like some of you, on the other hand, could detect the sexual negativity in me and just couldn't bear to leave it be. You are so threatened by these ideas.

 

You really don't have to think the same way and you don't have to hate me/us for thinking that. Maybe it is just rough on you because of the crap you see on movies/tv and you crave uniformity. She is not western: would you hate everyone from her culture for being different? To be honest, I have very little respect for your displays of closed-mindedness and quick emotions.

[MBrewey]

Ok, now I completely understand why janedoe was acting the way she was in other threads to me. Make no mistake though, I still think it is pretty messed up to expect complete 100% virginity from someone in this day and age. I can see maybe a man being upset if his wife had slept with loads and loads of men, but from what I have read this the woman yo are with..her past is not that bad.

 

Yeah, her past really is not that bad at all. I wouldn't be with her if it was; sorry for the frankness but I'm starting to get aggravated with the nonsense being written here.

 

Just because something isn't too bad, doesn't make it neutral or good. Mostly, people don't like others copulating with their significant other. They really don't like it, for many reasons good old reasons biological and financial. It is something you have to deal with. I'd say it is a BAD thing to be dealt with. That doesn't make me naive, or immoral. With all the thing said on the internet, does it really make me shocking?

[MBrewey]

I honestly do feel good that I came here though, despite the friction. There is a big scary idea out there that can make committal dudes feel like they are getting screwed. Why aren't we getting screwed? For me, it is not enough to have an emotional defense to an argument. I need a rational one. Just asking the question though, the best response some people can muster is outrage. Then, there are others who hate the idea that more sex might ever be a bad thing, and they get so caught up on it that is all they can (crudely) talk about (I just hope he doesn't have a heart attack).

 

I'm approaching thirty, I have an education and a career I love, I played college ball, I'm tall, I'm fit, and I don't mind talking to strangers. I'm also in love with a young, gorgeous girl. It isn't just some internet argument for me, if commitment means I'm getting royally screwed. I'm actually pretty near a crossroads. I actually need good reasons on which to act. I need to see what kinds of fears and happiness has met people on the other side of these choices, what mechanisms make them feel fulfilled and how they comfort themselves.

 

A little bit from this forum even, from thinking about it and arguing (at least up to about the second page) and seeing what things the married set takes for granted, I feel like I've gotten a pretty good idea of how to think about my own situation. I don't really think that I'm getting the short end of the stick.

Edited January 23, 2014 by MBrewey

[lucy_in_disguise]

What do YOU want out of life?

 

Do YOU want to get married?

 

For many people, men and women, that is a life goal, but it's not all roses and gravy, and it's not for everyone.

 

Would you be happier with the PUA "alpha" male lifestyle?

 

Just as there are many people who desire a family, many others believe being single and free is the more fulfilling choice. My best friend said at 18 he would never marry, and at 30, nothing has changed. He loves variety in his sex life too much to ever give it up.

 

Your comments that commitment implies failure at getting it for free (like those other guys) indicates to me that you may not be the marrying kind. IMO most people who desire marriage simply do not think of their relationships that way. Commitment is intimacy, not something you give to get something back.

 

What do YOU want?

 

If marriage is a goal of yours, what is your criteria for a wife?

 

Virginity, btw, is a totally acceptable answer. In some cultures it is a standard requirement. You value what you value. To most in the US, it appears to be a silly criteria, probably because there are so many more glaring "flaws" to look out for... but you should be able to find a woman who hasn't been with anyone else if it is very important to you.

 

I think you need to figure out exactly what you want out of life, and then aim to get it.

 

If you are getting what you want, how can that ever be the short end of the stick?

 

BTW with regard to your GF, I don't believe she's the right woman for you. When you truly value someone... you don't talk about them as someone else's trash.

 

It's ok to value virginity, even if others believe it's silly. Some people in this thread have pointed out that it is hypocritical of you to have that value in light of your own behavior, but IMO, that's irrelevant. You are entitled to your standards just like the people you are dating are entitled to theirs. You want what you want, and you want a girl whose face hasn't been jizzed on. For many people, that is not a requirement because they believe there are other criteria that better predict if they are compatible with someone. But for you, clearly it is important.

 

I think you should dump your GF, figure out if you're the marrying type at all, and if so, figure out exactly what your requirements are for the wife position.

[Fluttershy]

 

It's ok to value virginity, even if others believe it's silly. Some people in this thread have pointed out that it is hypocritical of you to have that value in light of your own behavior, but IMO, that's irrelevant. You are entitled to your standards just like the people you are dating are entitled to theirs. You want what you want, and you want a girl whose face hasn't been jizzed on. For many people, that is not a requirement because they believe there are other criteria that better predict if they are compatible with someone. But for you, clearly it is important.

 

I think you should dump your GF, figure out if you're the marrying type at all, and if so, figure out exactly what your requirements are for the wife position.

 

people have a "right" and are free to do whatever they want... Until they go to prison for a crime. The OP is 100% free to be a hypocrite. No problem there. But sometimea, re-examing are "standards" for a partner because they may be shooting themselves in the foot on happiness.

Hypocrisy, no matter the sex, to me is an ugly personality trait. And while we can all be hypocrites at one point or another there are those that it is very strong in. So judging a woman on how fast she jumped between the sheets with you... Those same sheets he jumped between.

 

Oh and OP the pregnant thing is crap now thanks to modern technology. Yeah a woman can get knocked up. But once she does the choice is all hers. And if she chooses to keep the child... Thanks to DNa testing daddy has to pay. So while she has the choice to be a parent or not... Should she choose to be a parent... Daddy may have to pay... Or go to jail. So in truth... Nowadays men risk more spreading their seed around them women!

[janedoe67]

Quote:

Originally Posted by janedoe67 View Post

Let her go so that SHE can find someone worthy. Seriously.

Be nice. Don't be so easily threatened by other views.

 

Arrogance is almost as funny as puns...

 

I was the pure as driven snow 25 plus year old virgin I married (you know, the kind of woman you seek). Even then, I would not have touched a misogynistic, arrogant, double-standard laden hypocrite who assumes people are "threatened" rather than considering he might be wrong with a ten foot pole.

 

The problem for you is that you do not deserve the type of woman you seek. You didn't before but guess what - now that YOU chose to become a "hop in the sack" for one night kind of guy, you are EXACTLY like your GF whom you see as beneath you.

 

Yeah yeah...direct him to my thread. Doesn't change who I was when I married.

 

There are no guarantees Messiah.

 

A little humility might make you more attractive.

[Got it]

I have done a lot of thinking the last few days and I realize that I had some misconceptions, to say the least, about life and love.

 

Got it, You asked why I care what those guys think? The answer to that is because I worry it was true. Aren't I a lesser man for being a good and committed lover to someone who other people treated like trash and humiliated?

 

And it was not pure speculation what other men have thought of her. I am ashamed to say I have been a bit of an obsessed archaeologist. Her previous lovers did use sex as a form of humiliation. That seems pretty common though; frequently, men seem to employ all their powers of manipulation to obtain sex from a girl just to turn around and pretend that what they were given was something worthless.

 

So am I subordinate to people who have behaved like jerks? To answer concisely, no. It took a lot of thinking, believe it or not, to figure that out though.

 

I'm not surprised if there has been a deluge of young, pissed off guys recently. There is so much disgusting writing and acting out their now which dichotomizes the world into Alpha males, winners who have sex, and Beta males, looser who have relationships after the real men have their way.

 

What I was really looking for was some healing explanation of how committed guys deal with being losers at this juvenile game. Obviously they look at the world differently and I wanted to hear how they saw it. Because when it is all said and done, I really believe marriage and family is the last best hope for fulfillment in my life. I just want to be able to look at myself in the mirror too, without feeling subordinate to the bicep-kissing peacocks.

 

I think that whole attitude of Alpha/Beta male crap comes out of some biological fear of false paternity. A guy doesn't want to spend his resources raising another guy's kids and, conversely, he thinks he is winning if he can get sex without commitment, to have some unlucky guy spend his resources. Maybe that is a rational fear in nature, but in civilization it is not. The real winners do need self-control, morals, dignity, loyalty, rationality. Marriage and relationships are tough freaking work and the people without those noble qualities may be able to initiate but not necessarily sustain a relationships. Sure, have a good time if you really want, but if you can't control yourself eventually then you are an animal better suited for nature and functionally impotent within civilization.

 

Maybe this is an age and maturity issue but I can't imagine giving this much thought into an abstract idea. Maybe I am more literal then this but if they make me happy, I make them happy, we are happy together, no major issues, like and respect each other then I am not going to extrapolate any further then this and I sure as heck don't care what others think. I stopped caring about peer pressure back in high school.

 

This whole alpha/beta thing is just so turned around and twisted up. It isn't actually based on healthy committed relationships. It is short term thinking. It's hogwash to be honest. You are better than this! Why are you following the propaganda?

[Philosoraptor]

Man, this guy is everywhere. Making anything but a rational argument. Wild emotions going side to side mixed with a pile of defensiveness and a pinch of aggressiveness.

 

Asking this girl to marry you is not going to make things suddenly better. A lot of insecurity issues still need to be dealt with, and emotions need to become stable, before you take that leap. Don't ride this sudden high and "realization", and make an important life choice based on it.