BS as "innocent victim"

[inappfriendly]

I appreciate the responses. Even the nasty ones. The topic is loaded and I understand the strong feelings it evokes across the board. Reading individual stories helps with perspective. It is the generalizations regarding this particular experience that inspired the start of the thread. My intention was NOT to place blame on each and every BS, mine included. Simply to acknowledge that betrayal comes in different forms.

[janedoe67]

As a FWW I say that my h WAS an innocent victim......of my affairs.

 

He WAS NOT an innocent victim in our myriad of long term marriage problems.

 

NO

 

But he WAS a victim of my affairs.

 

and regarding this:

 

I am just a PERSON, not an event or an action

 

Stick around long enough, and with the "right" input, you'll realize you AREN'T a person....your are the A. Period.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I wish I knew why WS didn't speak up. I think they just put their heads down and muddle through, thinking they are doing the right thing by keeping the nuclear family together. I know, they stay, and they bow down out of guilt. We see here all the time BS's talking about how their WS is doing EVERYTHING they ask, and still they are not happy.

 

There is a quote I like, it goes : :I am amazed at how many individuals mess up every new day with yesterday. They insist on bringing into today the failures of yesterday and in so doing, they pollute a potentially wonderful day. "I can't believe you did it, I don't think I'll ever forget it. You can't possibly know how much you hurt me. I don't know how you can sit there so smugly after you treated me this way. You ought to be crawling on your knees begging for forgiveness. I don't know if I can ever forgive you." These are not words of love but words of bitterness and resentment and revenge". -Gary Chapman

 

This is what a lot of us see from the posts on LS. NOT ALL OF THEM, but many. Until people learn to forgive, it will be hell forever. Someone posted just a couple of days ago about him thinking his wife cheated FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. And someone else saying they are still having trouble after THREE YEARS. Dear God. I don't know why ANYONE would do this to themselves. I'm sorry, I just don't. When I divorced, I moved on. I wasn't still having bad dreams, driving by old haunts and being sad, looking for their face in the crowd. I moved on because it was the healthiest thing to do. And as I moved on, I looked at my part in the failure of the marriage. I didn't just point fingers, which is what I see a lot of here.

 

Just my opinion. Don't worry, I know nobody will look at this and take in that quote, take it to heart and realize it would be best for them. They'll get defensive. It's really unfortunate because we all deserve to be happy. We can only be happy when we admit our failures and make them better.

 

In summary: Don't let the past steal the joys of the present

 

Kinda corny, but still good advice

[HermioneG]

I wish I knew why WS didn't speak up. I think they just put their heads down and muddle through, thinking they are doing the right thing by keeping the nuclear family together. I know, they stay, and they bow down out of guilt. We see here all the time BS's talking about how their WS is doing EVERYTHING they ask, and still they are not happy.

 

There is a quote I like, it goes : :I am amazed at how many individuals mess up every new day with yesterday. They insist on bringing into today the failures of yesterday and in so doing, they pollute a potentially wonderful day. "I can't believe you did it, I don't think I'll ever forget it. You can't possibly know how much you hurt me. I don't know how you can sit there so smugly after you treated me this way. You ought to be crawling on your knees begging for forgiveness. I don't know if I can ever forgive you." These are not words of love but words of bitterness and resentment and revenge". -Gary Chapman

 

This is what a lot of us see from the posts on LS. NOT ALL OF THEM, but many. Until people learn to forgive, it will be hell forever. Someone posted just a couple of days ago about him thinking his wife cheated FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. And someone else saying they are still having trouble after THREE YEARS. Dear God. I don't know why ANYONE would do this to themselves. I'm sorry, I just don't. When I divorced, I moved on. I wasn't still having bad dreams, driving by old haunts and being sad, looking for their face in the crowd. I moved on because it was the healthiest thing to do. And as I moved on, I looked at my part in the failure of the marriage. I didn't just point fingers, which is what I see a lot of here.

 

Just my opinion. Don't worry, I know nobody will look at this and take in that quote, take it to heart and realize it would be best for them. They'll get defensive. It's really unfortunate because we all deserve to be happy. We can only be happy when we admit our failures and make them better.

 

 

 

If you are not a wayward or betrayed, I think the supposition of what other people actually in the situation do or say about their marriage is supposition.

 

You are speaking to experiences that are not yours. You have no idea how a marriage is recovered, when both partners work at it, or what it looks like.

 

I understand that as an other woman who is now openly involved with her affair partner, that you need it to always be joint blame/fault of the marriage/impossible to recover.

 

I would also like $650 high heels to cost $5.

 

But wishing and hoping doesn't make either one of them so.

[goodyblue]

Thanks for your reply, Goodyblue. You are brave!

 

Of course I knew this thread would not meet a warm reception. And that is fair. But who is the authority on which party hurts most, suffers longest or offends the worst? Isn't it more personal than universal which sins are more damning than others?

 

I am just a PERSON, not an event or an action, same as everyone else here, with a heart and feelings, trying to navigate the muddy waters of a dysfunctional relationship (pre and post infidelity).

 

Yes, and in that vein, I will say, perhaps to the WS the worse sin was ignoring their needs for years. Yeah yeah, BS didn't do that. BS's were perfect in all ways. There were no issues at all. Everything was a honeymoon. Well... for one of you it was. And the WS not saying anything was a sin too. Sometimes WS's say they are not happy or try to change things and are met with a cool reception. Not all, but some.

 

I'm sure there are some BS's who were not unhappy, who thought all was right with the world, but you were wrong, your WS was cheating. Not your fault, I know, but the rest of it? You played your part. Just like I played mine in the A and so did my guy. We have done what we can to repair the damage and still work on it every day. We also work on a plethora of other things to make sure that we don't fall into the trap of one of us not being happy and the other not having a clue.

[Sub]

It's not easy to tell someone you want a divorce. Trust me on that, I've been trying for over a year now. My husband begs for more chances, and pleads. He has changed a little, but the fact remains that for 10 years of our marriage I was always second best.

 

You should have started thinking divorce long before a year ago, then, IMO. Unfortunately, that's what most will wonder when you try to explain your reasons for the A: "If things had been bad for soooo long, why are you only recently trying to divorce?"

[whichwayisup]

. I don't know why ANYONE would do this to themselves. I'm sorry, I just don't. When I divorced, I moved on.

 

But that is you. Maybe that person's coping skills isn't as strong as yours. Maybe that person has depression and has trouble letting go and working through problems. To sit and judge someone from a few posts and the bit of snippet we see about their life is not fair. You divorced, you moved on, great for you! Just like some OW let go and move on when their MM's choose to go back home..There are many OW who do not let go, can't let go and re start their affairs, sometimes months later and even years later.

 

Some people don't have the proper coping skills to deal with this kind of stuff. Whether the person is a BS, OW/OM, MM/MW, WS. Not all think and handle crisis so efficiently.

[cozycottagelg]

You should have started thinking divorce long before a year ago, then, IMO. Unfortunately, that's what most will wonder when you try to explain your reasons for the A: "If things had been bad for soooo long, why are you only recently trying to divorce?"

 

I didn't have an affair.

[cozycottagelg]

Don't get confused, if you want to divorce you just need to do it. It is not an easy step but is the right step.

 

Does your husband put a gun on your head and force you to stay? Or are you so weak mentally that you can't defend your basic needs. If you know your husband is going to try to manipulate you on to stay just don't give in, be strong and take the steps that you need to take.

 

Cheating on someone is never a solution for anything, it solves anything, it just make of you a deceiver and betrayer.

 

I am so weak mentally, yes. That is sadly my problem.

 

And I haven't cheated.

[Sub]

I didn't have an affair.

 

Sorry, I'm speaking hypothetically. I should have made that clear.

[goodyblue]

But that is you. Maybe that person's coping skills isn't as strong as yours. Maybe that person has depression and has trouble letting go and working through problems. To sit and judge someone from a few posts and the bit of snippet we see about their life is not fair. You divorced, you moved on, great for you! Just like some OW let go and move on when their MM's choose to go back home..There are many OW who do not let go, can't let go and re start their affairs, sometimes months later and even years later.

 

Some people don't have the proper coping skills to deal with this kind of stuff. Whether the person is a BS, OW/OM, MM/MW, WS. Not all think and handle crisis so efficiently.

 

You are correct. That is where the work should come. Not in trying to repair a miserable relationship. Fix yourself, then see what happens. But this crap about the affair being the worst thing? If there is a marriage where one partner goes without any connection to their partner for years, OR, a partner finds out about an affair... I'd rather be the one that finds out about the affair. Then I move on. Long suffering sucks. And MANY WS's do.

 

Again, I do believe the affair is on the WS. Yes. But everything leading up to it is on both. And it's NOT always equal. Even if it's both their marriage.

[ComingInHot]

Innapfriendly, "years even decades of abuse, lies, narcissism. .." . If that's the case my heart goes out to the abused spouse. That's No Way for a H or W to live within a M. I should know, my fWH was that abusive and I took it for over 10 years!

Funny thing is, HE was the one who cheated.

Do I have a flaw or two? Sure. We're there issues in our M? Of course. Always are.

 

The issues in a M are the fault of the H and W and are for (as I said in another thread) for the Marriage forum and/or separation & divorce forum. Nothing to do with infidelity and cheating.

 

Once cheating enters the M it becomes a Whole Different phenomenon and ends up in the Infidelity and OW/OM forums.

I think it is even set up this way HERE on LS because issues in the M and Cheating are two Non related things however regardless of past cheating certainly Does impact the M, W, family, extended families, friends, social and professional circles.

 

In your opening topic, I feel like the overall point being made is the, " BUT's" and the "What about this" and "What if's" in trying to... I Don't know "justify" the cheaters or take blame "off" the person banging a third party, or putting blame for cheating on someone who isn't cheating.

What I'm trying to figure out is Why you're trying to do this. Do You know why? Besides the, "bs is horrible, mean abusive and deserves it/asked for it" stuff.

[goodyblue]

No one blame the WS for all the things that happened before. If you read what you quoted I said that everyone have their own fault in a marriage or relationship that does not work. If you are in a relationship with someone who is not giving you what you need or deserve then just move on, divorce and find what you need with someone else.

Cheating doesn't help and solves nothing, it just create a guilt feeling and make the person that cheats become a deceiving and betrayer person.

If you are a WS and you have cheated you still can decide to leave your marriage, you are not forced to stay. You don't need to take the problems of the marriage on your shoulders either but the cheating is only on you and you need to work on probing yourself trust worthy again.

Actually is quite simple...

 

Sometimes they are forced to stay. Forced by guilt, forced by the spouse threatening to ruin their life, to out them, put them in the poor house, etc. Of course they can leave, but in their own mind, their stuck.

 

And you are correct. You should work on proving yourself trustworthy again if you cheat. But when is it over? Three years? fifteen? Never? Yeah... it's very, very rare that you hear, well, it's been two months and we're doing great. No we hear, it's been a year, it's... tolerable. But how do I get over it? How do I forgive? How do I stop thinking about it? It's horrible.

[NYWoman]

I mistakenly cheated on my first H, so with my second M, I was determined to not make the same mistake.

 

If ever there was a man who deserved to be cheated on, he did. He was never there for us, myself or my two boys. Talking about it was like talking to a wall. He claimed he worked hard, so weekends were his play time, golf, at the most expensive courses. He would take the weekend off to fly to some other state to play their course. He never once taught our boys how to fish, yet, he flew to Alaska, the Bahamas etc. for a week of fishing. He never once took a family vacation. This is only a slice of our family life. Never mind that I worked just as hard as he did and made the same amount if not more.

 

As for a divorce, we had a nice large house, in a safe neighborhood, with friends the boys loved. Divorces cost big bucks. To divorce would have meant we would have had to move. He was hardly ever there, so it was no biggie, to stay there as he did pay half of the expenses. Once they were out of the house, so was I

 

He claims to this day I blindsided him, when I left.

 

Side note, he did remarry, and it did not take long for her to figure out what a loser he was and find someone to keep her company

[Sub]

You are correct. That is where the work should come. Not in trying to repair a miserable relationship. Fix yourself, then see what happens. But this crap about the affair being the worst thing? If there is a marriage where one partner goes without any connection to their partner for years, OR, a partner finds out about an affair... I'd rather be the one that finds out about the affair. Then I move on. Long suffering sucks. And MANY WS's do.

 

Easier said than done. It would be great if it was that clear right after discovery. Heck, even a year or two after. But perspective is an impossible thing to maintain when you get hit with something like this. And this scenario - where things were bad for years, or the marriage wasn't good for a long time - isn't as common as you think, IMO.

[goodyblue]

Innapfriendly, "years even decades of abuse, lies, narcissism. .." . If that's the case my heart goes out to the abused spouse. That's No Way for a H or W to live within a M. I should know, my fWH was that abusive and I took it for over 10 years!

Funny thing is, HE was the one who cheated.

Do I have a flaw or two? Sure. We're there issues in our M? Of course. Always are.

 

The issues in a M are the fault of the H and W and are for (as I said in another thread) for the Marriage forum and/or separation & divorce forum. Nothing to do with infidelity and cheating.

 

Once cheating enters the M it becomes a Whole Different phenomenon and ends up in the Infidelity and OW/OM forums.

I think it is even set up this way HERE on LS because issues in the M and Cheating are two Non related things however regardless of past cheating certainly Does impact the M, W, family, extended families, friends, social and professional circles.

 

In your opening topic, I feel like the overall point being made is the, " BUT's" and the "What about this" and "What if's" in trying to... I Don't know "justify" the cheaters or take blame "off" the person banging a third party, or putting blame for cheating on someone who isn't cheating.

What I'm trying to figure out is Why you're trying to do this. Do You know why? Besides the, "bs is horrible, mean abusive and deserves it/asked for it" stuff.

 

Completely untrue. Do you think people are just soooo happy, sniffing the daisies, loving their spouse, life is easy, and they just see a 22 year old blonde and go "Oh man, I just gotta get me some of that". Please give me a break.

 

The two are completely related. It's just that people don't want it to be because that would mean facing the true issues, not just one mistake. All the others fall by the wayside, just like I said. It is sad.

[waterwoman]

Was I innocent? Nope. Who is?

Was i guilty of forcing him to have an affair? No.

 

FWIW I have been very introspective lately. Lots of heavy thinking and pondering - I am a chronic depressive and suffer from SAD this time of year so i tend to do a lot of this sort of stuff - and I have come to the conclusion that I shut of emotionally from H many years ago due to his financial, emotional, domestic carelessness again and again. Throw in a generous handful or bad luck and some poor decisions on both our parts. I still loved him, I still liked him, I still found him attractive, funny. good company etc but I stopped trusting him to be there for me when I needed him so I shut off so I couldn't be disappointed or hurt anymore. Not good coping, not at all. Did I try to talk? Of course but how do you express something you don't really understand yourself, how do you express yourself at all to someone who stops listening when you get emotional or distressed. Why did he do that? Because of FOO issues and absolute terror of negative emotions.

 

TBH I am exhausted from my marriage. I feel as if I have been fighting a battle for 21 years, battling money worries, work worries, child-rearing concerns, housework..... and I feel like I have been doing it alone for the most part. I didn't want it to be like that. But it was.

 

So who was the innocent victim? Who was the selfish bastard? You tell me because it seems to me that both of us were victims and selfish.

 

And that IME is the case, more or less, with most relationships that last a long time. Time lays layer after layer of stuff down and it's hard to sift through it and find out where it came from.

 

Infidelity introduces another external factor, it gets introduced unilaterally with no prior arrangement. It is the ultimate FU, the ultimate 'punishment' for the 'unworthy spouse' and it stings because it is grossly unfair in a marriage where two imperfect people have both made mistakes.

[GoreSP]

So I see this all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given. Spouse cheated. Poor H/W. End of analysis. Well what about all of the sins leading up to the WS's A. What about years or even decades of lies, narcissism, emotional abuse or physical neglect? Why is BS miraculously baptized in the wake of infidelity? Not only does it seem like they get a free pass from the past, but moving forward are absolved from any further wrongdoings because WS will NEVER be right or worthy in their eyes again. If they ever were to begin with.

 

I get what you're saying. But cheating is not an adult way of dealing with this sort of thing.

[atreides]

Thanks for your reply, Goodyblue. You are brave!

 

Of course I knew this thread would not meet a warm reception. And that is fair. But who is the authority on which party hurts most, suffers longest or offends the worst? Isn't it more personal than universal which sins are more damning than others?

 

I am just a PERSON, not an event or an action, same as everyone else here, with a heart and feelings, trying to navigate the muddy waters of a dysfunctional relationship (pre and post infidelity).

 

 

The problem i have in principle is that "feelings" and "having a heart" do not exempt us from the consequences of our actions nor immunity from judgement. I for one have made many mistakes, some pretty severe and took the judgement and consequences and it made me a better, stronger person for it. I think if i had used the "feelings card" i would not have come out as strong or learned as much about myself. It's looking in the mirror with everyone screaming at you from behind that get us to find within ourselves what we did and then to find strength and wisdom for the future as a better self.

 

As for your OP, cheating has nothing to do with marriage problems, they are 2 separate islands. However i do understand that in R the BS uses infidelity as a shield in arguments about the M, however for a time it is understandable, infidelity is one of the primary breaches of a M

 

I will quote what i wrote from another post in a different thread

There are no reasons, excuses, contributing factors, "atmospheric variables" within M problems that have any type of connection with cheating. Cheating is its own animal that comprises the worst attributes about ourselves, the lying point blank, deceit, loss of identity, planning, manipulation and so on. Are we to say those traits have any merit to stand up and say "but my marriage sucked!?" no.

Edited January 22, 2014 by atreides

[Zenstudent]

Sometimes they are forced to stay. Forced by guilt, forced by the spouse threatening to ruin their life, to out them, put them in the poor house, etc. Of course they can leave, but in their own mind, their stuck.

 

And you are correct. You should work on proving yourself trustworthy again if you cheat. But when is it over? Three years? fifteen? Never? Yeah... it's very, very rare that you hear, well, it's been two months and we're doing great. No we hear, it's been a year, it's... tolerable. But how do I get over it? How do I forgive? How do I stop thinking about it? It's horrible.

See, this is the baggage you get to carry when betrayal hits the relationship. You can't put a time frame on exactly when you'll be able to trust a proven untrustworthy person again. Some say never. I trust my wife - just not to not cheat again.

 

It's not that the relationship can't be tolerable, acceptable, fine, good, whatever, it'll just be... different. Most of us need to learn how to deal with this stuff, since it's a new situation and not what we initially thought we had.

[HermioneG]

Completely untrue. Do you think people are just soooo happy, sniffing the daisies, loving their spouse, life is easy, and they just see a 22 year old blonde and go "Oh man, I just gotta get me some of that". Please give me a break.

 

The two are completely related. It's just that people don't want it to be because that would mean facing the true issues, not just one mistake. All the others fall by the wayside, just like I said. It is sad.

 

If you don't see the truth in what CIH wrote, then you need to read and study the psychology of affairs.

 

Because you may well find yourself surprised- because affairs aren't shielded by a great primary relationship.

 

The ability to have an affair is rooted in the pathology of the wayward. Without fixing that- vulnerability exists.

[ComingInHot]

GoodyBlue, actually this is Absolutely true, in our case. Only, she was brunette* I think for now, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

Maybe our experiences are too different to allow us to relate.

Good news is, we both can keep reading and learning!*

[Zenstudent]

It's just so strange to me. I really can't figure out why it is, that some people won't accept that some people act destructively because of issues within them selves. Every action just HAS to be caused by a negative action from someone else?

 

I've asked the question several times, but no one seems to have an answer.

[cocorico]

So I see this all the time on LS. BS always portrayed as the innocent victim. It is like an automatic given. Spouse cheated. Poor H/W. End of analysis. Well what about all of the sins leading up to the WS's A. What about years or even decades of lies, narcissism, emotional abuse or physical neglect? Why is BS miraculously baptized in the wake of infidelity? Not only does it seem like they get a free pass from the past, but moving forward are absolved from any further wrongdoings because WS will NEVER be right or worthy in their eyes again. If they ever were to begin with.

 

While there clearly are BS that are completely innocent, whose WS "cheat" for reasons unrelated to the R or the BS, the orthodoxy on LS is to assume (sometimes even after proof to the contrary) that *all* BS are automatically innocent of *any* wrongdoing in the R. The A just wipes the slate clean, and they are immediately sanctified.

 

Certainly there are BS who are not so innocent, some matching the description in your OP (my H's xW - herself a fWS - being one such example) and while it s easy to say, "well, if it was that had, why did the WS not simply leave?" The reality can be far more complex, especially of there are kids. To use my h as an example again, they did separate long before he succumbed to an A. He was deliriously happy during the separation, and had he been more selfish, would have stayed separated. Instead, he was moved by his kids trauma and suffering during the A and their pleas begging him to take his then-W back. She had fallen apart completely, and was begging him to take her back, and because he cared more for his kids than himself, he agreed on condition that she would accompany him to MC. Later she reneged, and he did not feel he could subject his LS to further trauma at that point so he gritted his teeth to stay until they were old enough for him to make the break (which he did). I'm sure he is not alone in the choices he made.

 

Yes, from the position of current knowledge today he feels he would have acted differently back then. But most people make the best decisions they can at the time with the information and resources available to them at the time. Many, if not most, WS engage in an A as an act of desperation, because at the time it seems like the best option available to them. To say glibly "you should simply have D" demonstrates a profound ignorance of the deep conflict they experience/d, and an absence of empathy for the struggles that got them to that point.

[HermioneG]

It's just so strange to me. I really can't figure out why it is, that some people won't accept that some people act destructively because of issues within them selves. Every action just HAS to be caused by a negative action from someone else?

 

I've asked the question several times, but no one seems to have an answer.

 

To me, the people who fight against this notion seem to harbor the thought that people can control other people.

 

It is a long hard lesson to learn we don't carry that kind of power. I used to wish we could- but it is not reality.