BS as "innocent victim"

[underwater2010]

This is an interesting quote from Dr Shirley Glass PhD.

 

 

 

It sems to sum up the situation with my exWH very well.

You have absolutely spoke the truth. If each person in the marriage tried to give more than they got....affairs would be a thing of the past. Quit looking to other people to full fill your needs. Find happiness within yourself, instead of looking for someone to provide. Then and only then will you experience true mature love. Not the butterflies and rainbows. But realizing that each selfless act, each smile, each touch and kiss will mean more than that stupid little compliment.

[experiencethedevine]

Sometimes they are forced to stay. Forced by guilt, forced by the spouse threatening to ruin their life, to out them, put them in the poor house, etc. Of course they can leave, but in their own mind, their stuck.

 

And you are correct. You should work on proving yourself trustworthy again if you cheat. But when is it over? Three years? fifteen? Never? Yeah... it's very, very rare that you hear, well, it's been two months and we're doing great. No we hear, it's been a year, it's... tolerable. But how do I get over it? How do I forgive? How do I stop thinking about it? It's horrible.

 

 

Nobody is 'forced' to do anything in the adult world unless they are physically beaten into submission and fear for their lives.

 

 

Guilt is not 'forced' it is felt. Threats are simply that. Threats. One becomes fearless in the face of them when the threats are empty, and even if they are not, then one faces those threats and deals with them accordingly. Avoiding confrontation of the circumstances you allude to can escalate the situation further.

 

 

Ruining lives is what a person does when they compromise their own moral code for their own pleasure, no matter what excuse is made regarding its origins.

 

 

They are not 'stuck' in their own mind, they are refusing to face the consequences of their choices in the hope that they preserve their dignity in the face of the truth. They made a conscious choice to betray the person they made vows with NOT to.

 

 

It still comes back to the choice they make, whether one likes that fact or not, and one can argue themselves blue in the face that the betrayed spouse has a part to play in that choice, the fact is, they do not.

 

 

How can anyone make a conscious choice in such regard with no awareness of the fact that they have been clandestinely involved in a triangle of deceit?

 

 

regarding the length of time it takes for any sort of recovery, be it with their marital partner or without, is entirely dependant on all the circumstances peculiar to each individual situation.

 

 

It still comes back to the fact that their are two people in a marriage, and both are responsible for it. An affair is always instigated by one of them through choice and without the knowledge of the other. That is hardly addressing any supposed issues now is it?

[experiencethedevine]

This is an interesting quote from Dr Shirley Glass PhD.

 

 

 

It sems to sum up the situation with my exWH very well.

 

 

Absolutely undeniable.

 

 

There is no such thing as a perfect relationship, and anyone who claims to have one is either deluded or lying about it.

 

 

By virtue of our diversity and complexity, we seek out a match that is as close to our own ideals as we can possible get. The fact is that we simply CANNOT HAVE IT ALL.

 

 

Through my own experiences both personal and professional, it is clear that often in a relationship, the inequality (however major or minor) presents itself as 'giver' and 'taker'.

 

 

That is not to say that either person only does one or the other of these, but rather more that there may be valid differences in the balance of give and take which creates the arena for debate, compromise and resolution. If that debate fails to take place, then resentment builds, and the unresolved issues that arise from it leads to one of the partnership seeking other solutions.

[cocorico]

This is an interesting quote from Dr Shirley Glass PhD.

 

 

 

It sems to sum up the situation with my exWH very well.

 

Sometimes, though, it is the other way. It is the person investing everything, carrying the load for both, who finally cracks and has the A, while the one coasting carries on coasting and expecting the other to do all the work.

[waterwoman]

Sometimes, though, it is the other way. It is the person investing everything, carrying the load for both, who finally cracks and has the A, while the one coasting carries on coasting and expecting the other to do all the work.

 

Of course. Sometimes it's one thing and sometimes it's another and sometimes it's something completely different. Generalizations are dangerous.

 

But I do think it's important for those who cheat or who beleive that cheating only happens where the cheated-upon is inadequate in some way, to realise that that is that is NOT always the case. There are perfectly OK BS, perfectly imperfect, human, well-meaning BS who get dumped on big time for no good reason, as well as all those evil harpies who lead their WS a terrible life.

 

I can honestly hold my hand up and say 'I am not a saint'. I made mistakes, or rather I should say 'H and I made mistakes together'. But I can also honestly say that I WAS blindsided. I never thought, no matter what things were like at home, that he would do what he did. It just wasn't like him, he is one of the most honest, loyal, decent men I knew. So I was utterly blindsided, not because I thought I was super-wife but because I thought he was a good good man.

[HermioneG]

Sometimes, though, it is the other way. It is the person investing everything, carrying the load for both, who finally cracks and has the A, while the one coasting carries on coasting and expecting the other to do all the work.

 

Perhaps, except that people who choose to cheat as a coping skill usually have some pathology that led to that decision, as infidelity is not a marital reflection, but a personal one.

 

So it is highly unlikely that they would be the overly invested partner, demonstrated by their coping mechanism, which is, at the affair's commence, selfish.

 

I have great respect for posters like Anne- who explain it so very clearly, as a former wayward who has taken the time and care to examine herself and heal.

[ComingInHot]

But why is it, "cracking and having an A"??

 

Why not, "cracking and divorcing" or "cracking and taking the kids to a friends or grandparents" or "cracking and threatening to leave/D if things don't change" or "Cracking and putting oneself into therapy" or....

[Woggle]

More often than not cheaters have major persecution complexes. You could 99% great but they take that 1% and blow up to epic proportions to justify their actions and portray themselves as the victim.

 

My ex gave me plenty of reasons to cheat in my first marriage but I never did but according all this stuff she created in her head made her out to be the victim. I even get blamed for things she is doing today even though we have had no contact for nearly 8 years.

 

I am sorry if I sound harsh but I have little to no sympathy for cheaters.

[atreides]

It's not just that, though. There are so many variables involved. My WW wasn't looking for an affair. She confided in an old "friend" about some issues we were having. The old "friend" had a thing for her from way back. Her other friend was in her ear convincing her I was having an A with a student. It turned into a perfect storm. We're all vulnerable to missteps at times. The reasons for the vulnerability, and those missteps, aren't as cut and dry as most make it out to be.

 

I would hope... and agree that is true for most, I don't see most simply planning out an A. However, the A is sought, planned and all the other variables and bad qualities about ourselves take over at some point. The destructive nature of an A is that the line is crossed and how it is crossed, the point blank lies, deceit and etc once it is. Intent of what was before that moment is moot basically.

 

SO many refrain from saying "i am not a bad person" being labeled "bad" or "good" is always temporary. One cannot logically label something that is dynamic such as our lives by one static point. However, for those moments in time, yes you are a "bad person" for allowing the worse of yourself to come to the forefront. The point i think for most that want forgiveness is that they dig deep to become a better person going forward.

[janedoe67]

The reason my hub didn't want me was because I am vile.

 

I chose to cheat because I am vile.

[atreides]

The reason my hub didn't want me was because I am vile.

 

I chose to cheat because I am vile.

 

I see a lot of similar posts from you like this above. Sarcasm i hope. I have not been a member long enough to "know" you.... I will have to read your threads.

 

 

As for the OP, @inappfriendly

I read a few of your first threads, where you were the WS, is there a thread that has more of your story and the "deep" M issues you spoke of in a post to get more context? I agree with your point that M problems need to be shared by both and it is unfair past a certain point in my opinion after an A is discovered for the BS to continue with being the innocent victim in every aspect of contention for the M. It does not give the BS a "get out of jail free" card. I thought the point of R for most had forgiveness in it, while it may take a while to reach that point, its true meaning must also take over at some point too.

Edited January 23, 2014 by atreides

[rumbleseat]

If one spouse feels they are carrying everything, if they feel that they are constantly being dumped on, if they feel that they are miserable, yet they choose to stay, year after year, then guess what?

 

That says much more about them than it does the bs who they claim is so terrible.

 

Maybe the person staying has some personal issues where that make them unable to stand up for themselves and leave, maybe they should have had counseling or therapy many years ago yet chose not to, maybe part of their personality was actually suited to that sort of relationship.

 

Again, they made the choice to stay, and trying to blame the bs for that is ridiculous. Their issues were probably there long before they bs came along.

 

This doesn't make someone who stays in that sort of a relationship a bad person, but it does mean that they have some sort of issue in their personality that keeps them from taking a stand for themselves.

 

Someone having an A does not magically change that about them. You don't suddenly change your personality overnight. Therapy, introspection, and doing a heck of a lot of work on yourself can make a difference.

 

The truth is that a ws who had a cr@py marriage yet stayed for so long stayed for one reason. They stayed because they wanted to. It would be the same as the example so oft cited by some om/ow of the bs who continues to stay even though he or she knows they are being cheated on, so they must somehow be okay with it. It doesn't make the behavior of their ws acceptable or right, but why does the bs choose to stay even though they are miserable? What makes them put up with that sort of treatment? While they certainly don't deserve to be treated that way, looking at why they choose to stay will help them more than continuing to get angry with the ws for cheating. They same is true for an ws who chose to cheat and ends up leaving their marriage.

 

Perhaps instead of getting all huffed up about how horrible the bs is, it would better serve the ws to figure out why they stayed so long and they they chose cheating as they way to solve their problems. Wouldn't that help them to have happier relationships and be a happier person in general as they move into their future?

 

Of course, the ow/om is best served by putting as much of the blame for the affair on the bs as they can, even though they will never know exactly what happened, much as as they would like to think otherwise.

Edited January 23, 2014 by rumbleseat

[goodyblue]

This is an interesting quote from Dr Shirley Glass PhD.

 

 

 

It sems to sum up the situation with my exWH very well.

 

This was actually the exact opposite of my guy. His ex disengaged way before he did.

[goodyblue]

If one spouse feels they are carrying everything, if they feel that they are constantly being dumped on, if they feel that they are miserable, yet they choose to stay, year after year, then guess what?

 

That says much more about them than it does the bs who they claim is so terrible.

 

Maybe the person staying has some personal issues where that make them unable to stand up for themselves and leave, maybe they should have had counseling or therapy many years ago yet chose not to, maybe part of their personality was actually suited to that sort of relationship.

 

Again, they made the choice to stay, and trying to blame the bs for that is ridiculous. Their issues were probably there long before they bs came along.

 

This doesn't make someone who stays in that sort of a relationship a bad person, but it does mean that they have some sort of issue in their personality that keeps them from taking a stand for themselves.

 

Someone having an A does not magically change that about them. You don't suddenly change your personality overnight. Therapy, introspection, and doing a heck of a lot of work on yourself can make a difference.

 

The truth is that a ws who had a cr@py marriage yet stayed for so long stayed for one reason. They stayed because they wanted to. It would be the same as the example so oft cited by some om/ow of the bs who continues to stay even though he or she knows they are being cheated on, so they must somehow be okay with it. It doesn't make the behavior of their ws acceptable or right, but why does the bs choose to stay even though they are miserable? What makes them put up with that sort of treatment? While they certainly don't deserve to be treated that way, looking at why they choose to stay will help them more than continuing to get angry with the ws for cheating. They same is true for an ws who chose to cheat and ends up leaving their marriage.

 

Perhaps instead of getting all huffed up about how horrible the bs is, it would better serve the ws to figure out why they stayed so long and they they chose cheating as they way to solve their problems. Wouldn't that help them to have happier relationships and be a happier person in general as they move into their future?

 

Of course, the ow/om is best served by putting as much of the blame for the affair on the bs as they can, even though they will never know exactly what happened, much as as they would like to think otherwise.

 

Of course... you just put on your magic shield of right and deflect any and all efforts at trying to, not place blame, but understand the situation.

 

Face it, if you are BS, you're going to blame WS, OW. If you are WS, you are going to blame BS, OW. If you are OW, still in the relationship, you're going to blame BS. IF you are not in the relationship any longer and an OW, you are going to blame BS and WS. This is a lame topic. I take my part in what I did. Do you? If you do good. If you don't you won't learn anything.

[experiencethedevine]

Of course... you just put on your magic shield of right and deflect any and all efforts at trying to, not place blame, but understand the situation.

 

Face it, if you are BS, you're going to blame WS, OW. If you are WS, you are going to blame BS, OW. If you are OW, still in the relationship, you're going to blame BS. IF you are not in the relationship any longer and an OW, you are going to blame BS and WS. This is a lame topic. I take my part in what I did. Do you? If you do good. If you don't you won't learn anything.

 

 

 

 

I think all topics here have a validity of their own and are pertinent to the individual who seeks to address a conundrum they feel is moot and worthy of exploration.

 

 

As the claim here is that valuable lessons can be learned from careful navigation of the whys and wherefores of an affair, therefore apportioning blame in any one area be negated, then I would suggest that making such an assumption would be the opposite of effective understanding.

[waterwoman]

goodyblue - it is so clear from your posts that you love your chap very very much. I can see how hurtful it is for people to call him names, to blame him for the pain his wife was caused when as you see it she was to blame as well.

 

Can you not see how hurtful it is when as a BS you also love your wayward, you don't want anyone to call him names and say 'leave the bastard!', but you have been massively hurt and are being told that your are to blame, you are at fault for the betrayal and in fact you have neglected your spouse. Even when there were problems not many people unless they are sociopaths deliberately choose to cause those problems or neglect to try to solve them when they realise they are present. But they are never the preserve on just one spouse and it's hard to fix things if you don't know how and perhaps you aren't getting any help to do so.

 

I would hazard a guess that very few BS on here, at least the ones who choose to try to reconcile, feel no responsibility for the weaknesses in their marriage at all. No marriage is perfect, no human is perfect, the argument for most of us is that no matter how imperfect we might have been we didn't deserve the pain that our waywards caused us.

[HermioneG]

This was actually the exact opposite of my guy. His ex disengaged way before he did.

 

Which gently, unless you lived in their house, you do not know.

 

You cannot speak to her behavior. Your reporter- and understandably so- was biased.

[HermioneG]

Of course... you just put on your magic shield of right and deflect any and all efforts at trying to, not place blame, but understand the situation.

 

Face it, if you are BS, you're going to blame WS, OW. If you are WS, you are going to blame BS, OW. If you are OW, still in the relationship, you're going to blame BS. IF you are not in the relationship any longer and an OW, you are going to blame BS and WS. This is a lame topic. I take my part in what I did. Do you? If you do good. If you don't you won't learn anything.

 

Here is the problem.

 

Why do you think- that learning from the situation always results in what you have decided is the root cause?

 

That's the issue.

 

If you think reconciling couples or people who have not been through an affair, as a rule, don't examine their relationship, their personal beliefs and actions, and what happened? You are wrong.

 

But what you seem to refuse to accept is that it does not always result in what you think it should.

 

And that, is actually, where the true lack of growth is.

 

Infidelity is a personal problem, not a marital one.

 

In the wake of infidelity, you would be hard pressed to find betrayeds who don't go over their lives with a fine tooth comb, looking for the why, once the initial trauma subsides. But that fine tooth comb doesn't have to reveal what you think it does. I totally understand why you feel it needs to support your hypothesis. Because it makes you feel your current relationship is safer. I get that and understand it.

 

But that doesn't make it so.

[ComingInHot]

GoodyBlue wrote, "but of course you put on your magical shield of right..."

 

I actually like this line* and I think if more people put on the shield of right, A's wouldn't happen near as often.

Because, and what is said here pretty much by each A perspective, engaging in an A Is Wrong.

 

So by God Put ON that shield of right and DO what is right (and that's Not cheating)*

[yellowmaverick]

But why is it, "cracking and having an A"??

 

Why not, "cracking and divorcing" or "cracking and taking the kids to a friends or grandparents" or "cracking and threatening to leave/D if things don't change" or "Cracking and putting oneself into therapy" or....

 

Or "cracking" and eating an entire sleeve of Thin Mints...........(just did).

[rumbleseat]

Of course... you just put on your magic shield of right and deflect any and all efforts at trying to, not place blame, but understand the situation.

 

Face it, if you are BS, you're going to blame WS, OW. If you are WS, you are going to blame BS, OW. If you are OW, still in the relationship, you're going to blame BS. IF you are not in the relationship any longer and an OW, you are going to blame BS and WS. This is a lame topic. I take my part in what I did. Do you? If you do good. If you don't you won't learn anything.

 

:laugh::

 

It's as plain as the nose on your (and his) face. You blame his bs for his cheating.

 

Look, I understand why you do that, I really do and I guess I can't really blame you. If you place and real responsibility (besides paying it lip service) on him, then you would have to wonder if he will be that passive again to stay where he is so unhappy, year after year, and if he is unhappy with you, will he keep it to himself and have an a? Will he tell you? How will you ever really know?

 

As for your assurance that every a is caused by the actions of the bs:

 

I can assure you that every person here who responds to you knows their relationship and is fully able to speak as to how it was. If they were happy, thought their ws was happy, but ws never told them otherwise, then who is responsible for that? The ws or the bs for not knowing?

 

 

As for seeing my relationship ship through the eyes of a bs, as someone who was actually in the relationship, I can see it quite well. So could the counsellors we saw and the therapist he saw.

 

His unhappiness had nothing to do with me or our m, he was unhappy due to issues that had zero to do with me,and he likely would have cheated no matter who I was. In fact, if I had been more of the horrible jail warden that some ow believe bs to be, then he probably wouldn't have cheated, as he wouldn't have felt that he could. By allowing him freedom through my trust for him, he felt free to explore another relationship. He also took my trust ad so e sort of sign I didn't care ( although even he said that was pretty twisted logic)

 

Kind of ironic, no? By being kind and trusting, I gave him the mindset that I didn't care. If I had been distrustful he would have thought I cared whether or not he cheated.

 

I suppose, according to the logic of the OP, the affair my fault and I should have been meaner:)

 

How terrible! Fifty lashes for me:laugh:

[experiencethedevine]

:laugh::

 

It's as plain as the nose on your (and his) face. You blame his bs for his cheating.

 

Look, I understand why you do that, I really do and I guess I can't really blame you. If you place and real responsibility (besides paying it lip service) on him, then you would have to wonder if he will be that passive again to stay where he is so unhappy, year after year, and if he is unhappy with you, will he keep it to himself and have an a? Will he tell you? How will you ever really know?

 

As for your assurance that every a is caused by the actions of the bs:

 

I can assure you that every person here who responds to you knows their relationship and is fully able to speak as to how it was. If they were happy, thought their ws was happy, but ws never told them otherwise, then who is responsible for that? The ws or the bs for not knowing?

 

 

As for seeing my relationship ship through the eyes of a bs, as someone who was actually in the relationship, I can see it quite well. So could the counsellors we saw and the therapist he saw.

 

His unhappiness had nothing to do with me or our m, he was unhappy due to issues that had zero to do with me,and he likely would have cheated no matter who I was. In fact, if I had been more of the horrible jail warden that some ow believe bs to be, then he probably wouldn't have cheated, as he wouldn't have felt that he could. By allowing him freedom through my trust for him, he felt free to explore another relationship. He also took my trust ad so e sort of sign I didn't care ( although even he said that was pretty twisted logic)

 

Kind of ironic, no? By being kind and trusting, I gave him the mindset that I didn't care. If I had been distrustful he would have thought I cared whether or not he cheated.

 

I suppose, according to the logic of the OP, the affair my fault and I should have been meaner:)

 

How terrible! Fifty lashes for me:laugh:

 

 

Rumbleseat, as usual your critical analysis is displayed in a readily understood format pertinent to your own experiences.

 

 

The highlighted is also pertinent to the issue of the BS as victim, as your statement alludes to the possibility that at some point, if the WS has entered into a real relationship with the OP in light of separation and divorce from the BS, then this is indeed a conundrum that the OP faces after some time.

 

 

I have no personal experience of such a dilemma as my husband and I are long recovered from his infidelity, but I have been privy to so many who have been through this very delicate issue, in which the OP has the opportunity to see the WS in true light and perhaps reaches the understanding that it is highly likely that their partner (former clandestine lover) has a pattern of behaviour resident that could very well lead to them seeking attention outside of the relationship if it fails to meet their personal criteria.

 

 

This leads to the OP realising that the BS cannot be to blame for the personal traits of the WS no matter how 'awful' the marital relationship was described/portrayed/imagined.

 

 

Nobody is responsible for our behaviour but ourselves, and nobody does anything for no reason. Those reasons are the REAL issue.

[janedoe67]

Or "cracking" and eating an entire sleeve of Thin Mints...........(just did).

 

This would have been IMMENSELY better than a choice to cheat. I could have done some extra sessions at the gym (which also would have worked off any frustration) and been done with it.

 

Blowing up my family was the worst choice possible.

[HermioneG]

:laugh::

 

It's as plain as the nose on your (and his) face. You blame his bs for his cheating.

 

Look, I understand why you do that, I really do and I guess I can't really blame you. If you place and real responsibility (besides paying it lip service) on him, then you would have to wonder if he will be that passive again to stay where he is so unhappy, year after year, and if he is unhappy with you, will he keep it to himself and have an a? Will he tell you? How will you ever really know?

 

As for your assurance that every a is caused by the actions of the bs:

 

I can assure you that every person here who responds to you knows their relationship and is fully able to speak as to how it was. If they were happy, thought their ws was happy, but ws never told them otherwise, then who is responsible for that? The ws or the bs for not knowing?

 

 

As for seeing my relationship ship through the eyes of a bs, as someone who was actually in the relationship, I can see it quite well. So could the counsellors we saw and the therapist he saw.

 

His unhappiness had nothing to do with me or our m, he was unhappy due to issues that had zero to do with me,and he likely would have cheated no matter who I was. In fact, if I had been more of the horrible jail warden that some ow believe bs to be, then he probably wouldn't have cheated, as he wouldn't have felt that he could. By allowing him freedom through my trust for him, he felt free to explore another relationship. He also took my trust ad so e sort of sign I didn't care ( although even he said that was pretty twisted logic)

 

Kind of ironic, no? By being kind and trusting, I gave him the mindset that I didn't care. If I had been distrustful he would have thought I cared whether or not he cheated.

 

I suppose, according to the logic of the OP, the affair my fault and I should have been meaner:)

 

How terrible! Fifty lashes for me:laugh:

 

 

Word for word. Exactly. I feel like we sat through the same counseling sessions.

[HermioneG]

This would have been IMMENSELY better than a choice to cheat. I could have done some extra sessions at the gym (which also would have worked off any frustration) and been done with it.

 

Blowing up my family was the worst choice possible.

 

Now I just want to go to the gym. And have some cookies.